United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

DJ1234Boeing · Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:23 pm

Per Jason Rabinowitz, United has ordered 19 used 73Gs. Wonder where these are coming from.
https://twitter.com/AirlineFlyer/status ... 9250947074

calpsafltskeds · Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:39 pm

788 going from almost a copy of 763 totals, to having Y within 10 of 772ER.
788 and 789 Y totals almost equal. 788 should be real low CASM, HNL-EWR/IAD?
I put together a table (below) of Polaris aircraft seats and totals along with a graph showing seats by class and total seats starting with lowest total seat aircraft.

If image doesn't work, go to
http://www.internetservicepros.com/grap ... seats3.jpg
My guesses on seats.
788:
Zone 1 - Polaris vs Diamond, between Zone 1 and 2 -8 seats
Zone 2 Minimum 1 Row J removed, 3 Rows PE (+18), only 3 Rows E+ (-36), Y (+25) 6 due to galley removal
Zone 3 +9, 1 Row added, pitch 32 to 31 (5 E+ remain)

789:
Zone 1 Polaris vs Diamond, between Zone 1 and 2 no change
Zone 2 J may take more room, add 21PE, convert 56 E+ seats to 49Y to allow Polaris and PE
Zone 3 +9, 1 Row added, pitch 32 to 31 (5 E+ remain)

764: Add 18 PE, Lose 4J and 21E+/Y Total -8 seats
Zone 1 Lose 4 Polaris vs. Diamond
Zone 2 Add 18 PE, drop E+ to 34 from 35 inches. Probably convert 4 E+ rows to Y for PE spacing
Zone 3 No change already at 31 inch pitch

jayunited · Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:15 am

calpsafltskeds wrote:
788 going from almost a copy of 763 totals, to having Y within 10 of 772ER.
788 and 789 Y totals almost equal. 788 should be real low CASM, HNL-EWR/IAD?
I put together a table (below) of Polaris aircraft seats and totals along with a graph showing seats by class and total seats starting with lowest total seat aircraft.
If image doesn't work, go to
http://www.internetservicepros.com/grap ... seats3.jpg
My guesses on seats.
788:
Zone 1 - Polaris vs Diamond, between Zone 1 and 2 -8 seats
Zone 2 Minimum 1 Row J removed, 3 Rows PE (+18), only 3 Rows E+ (-36), Y (+25) 6 due to galley removal
Zone 3 +9, 1 Row added, pitch 32 to 31 (5 E+ remain)

789:
Zone 1 Polaris vs Diamond, between Zone 1 and 2 no change
Zone 2 J may take more room, add 21PE, convert 56 E+ seats to 49Y to allow Polaris and PE
Zone 3 +9, 1 Row added, pitch 32 to 31 (5 E+ remain)

764: Add 18 PE, Lose 4J and 21E+/Y Total -8 seats
Zone 1 Lose 4 Polaris vs. Diamond
Zone 2 Add 18 PE, drop E+ to 34 from 35 inches. Probably convert 4 E+ rows to Y for PE spacing
Zone 3 No change already at 31 inch pitch

It saddens me to see economy plus being gutted. I get if we add P.E. seats with the economy plus seats the drop off isn't that drastic but considering some of the long haul flights UA utilizes the 789s on I was hoping for a larger E+ cabin, to go from 88 to 32 seats is a bit disappointing considering the seat count in regular economy will go up.

aviator96 · Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:09 am

763:
Looks like N686UA(Ex HA) is exiting HKG on Monday 7/22 at 15:00L to HNL with Polaris. Test flights scheduled 7/20 and earlier on the 22nd at 6:55L
772:
As of time of posting, N792UA is scheduled to enter XMN on 7/21 replacing N220UA. N792UA already has Polaris, so I’m assuming this is for maintenance. If this hold true, it brings up the question of is United delaying pmUA 772 Polaris conversions until after the summer busy season is over?

codc10 · Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:53 am

calpsafltskeds wrote:
788 going from almost a copy of 763 totals, to having Y within 10 of 772ER.
788 and 789 Y totals almost equal. 788 should be real low CASM, HNL-EWR/IAD?
I put together a table (below) of Polaris aircraft seats and totals along with a graph showing seats by class and total seats starting with lowest total seat aircraft.
If image doesn't work, go to
http://www.internetservicepros.com/grap ... seats3.jpg
My guesses on seats.
788:
Zone 1 - Polaris vs Diamond, between Zone 1 and 2 -8 seats
Zone 2 Minimum 1 Row J removed, 3 Rows PE (+18), only 3 Rows E+ (-36), Y (+25) 6 due to galley removal
Zone 3 +9, 1 Row added, pitch 32 to 31 (5 E+ remain)

789:
Zone 1 Polaris vs Diamond, between Zone 1 and 2 no change
Zone 2 J may take more room, add 21PE, convert 56 E+ seats to 49Y to allow Polaris and PE
Zone 3 +9, 1 Row added, pitch 32 to 31 (5 E+ remain)

764: Add 18 PE, Lose 4J and 21E+/Y Total -8 seats
Zone 1 Lose 4 Polaris vs. Diamond
Zone 2 Add 18 PE, drop E+ to 34 from 35 inches. Probably convert 4 E+ rows to Y for PE spacing
Zone 3 No change already at 31 inch pitch

I don't see UA going so low with E+ on the 788/789. Figure 20-25% of Y seats will be E+; that's consistent with most of the new configurations.

strfyr51 · Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:00 am

calpsafltskeds wrote:
Distance from EWR has little affect on this. UA will never stop service to those airports from their hubs. Service at PHL is roughly the same at every hub in the USA which is dominated by one carrier and I would consider PHL a second tier hub - that being one carrier dominates the hub with other airlines either providing spokes to their own hubs or low-cost carriers trying to pull some O&D traffic by low fares. Most hubs I list below have significant O&D to UA hubs, so service is operated so the Mileage Plus members have service on UA to those large cities from their home airport.
I would guess the only reason UA doesn't fly PHL-EWR/IAD is the short driving distance for locals and connections don't pencil out vs. AA's non-stop service from PHL to just about anywhere.

There are really different markets/passengers on lets say a ORD-ATL service flown by UA, DL and low cost carriers. Most likely UA flies something like a DLH-ORD-ATL passenger plus ORD based ATL passengers while DL flies a Montgomery AL-ATL-ORD passenger plus ATL based ORD passengers - low cost carrier fights it out to gain ATL-ORD passengers who don't care about mileage programs.
If you did the same analysis for Colorado you'd find UA in roughly the same position as American in PA.
For the same reasons UA will never pull services from MSP/SLC/LAX/SEA/PDX/PHX/DFW/MIA/FLL/ATL/CLT/BOS/BWI/BNA/MEM/STL/MCI/CLE/DTW/MSP and maybe a couple more airport that all are hubs or large focus cities for one or more airlines.
UA is the most hub centric carrier in the US. I would hope when UA picks up more aircraft that they would start connecting large cities to large cities that are not UA hubs, but where UA has a decent market share overall. Markets like MCO-BOS. UA does operate in 9 of the top 10 markets - the one missing is MCO-ATL and DL is dominant and its a shorter haul.

It is worth noting that PHL is a hub for American Via of the US merger. UA has never had more than a few gates on the D concourse. and with Hubs at EWR and IAD?
I do not see why they would. PHL is a good station for UAL but they don't seem to have the interest in making it much bigger and Haven't since 1984 when I hired in at UAL. and PHL is my home town..

Nicknuzzii · Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:25 am

calpsafltskeds wrote:
788 going from almost a copy of 763 totals, to having Y within 10 of 772ER.
788 and 789 Y totals almost equal. 788 should be real low CASM, HNL-EWR/IAD?
I put together a table (below) of Polaris aircraft seats and totals along with a graph showing seats by class and total seats starting with lowest total seat aircraft.
If image doesn't work, go to
http://www.internetservicepros.com/grap ... seats3.jpg
My guesses on seats.
788:
Zone 1 - Polaris vs Diamond, between Zone 1 and 2 -8 seats
Zone 2 Minimum 1 Row J removed, 3 Rows PE (+18), only 3 Rows E+ (-36), Y (+25) 6 due to galley removal
Zone 3 +9, 1 Row added, pitch 32 to 31 (5 E+ remain)

789:
Zone 1 Polaris vs Diamond, between Zone 1 and 2 no change
Zone 2 J may take more room, add 21PE, convert 56 E+ seats to 49Y to allow Polaris and PE
Zone 3 +9, 1 Row added, pitch 32 to 31 (5 E+ remain)

764: Add 18 PE, Lose 4J and 21E+/Y Total -8 seats
Zone 1 Lose 4 Polaris vs. Diamond
Zone 2 Add 18 PE, drop E+ to 34 from 35 inches. Probably convert 4 E+ rows to Y for PE spacing
Zone 3 No change already at 31 inch pitch

Woah, I didn't know Doug Parker was in charge of UA's seat configurations. All jokes aside, I do not see United dropping their premium seating % and totals by that much at all. UA tends to be more premium heavy with the exception of the 78X, which is for leisure routes.

calpsafltskeds · Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:32 am

73Gs could be WestJet, SAS or China Southern or China Eastern. Only airlines with big enough fleet except Southwest and UA won't buy aircraft with that many cycles.

Doubt WestJet as they have MAX issues as does China Southern. SAS doesn't show MAX aircraft in fleet.

CALTECH · Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:32 pm

jayunited wrote:
CALTECH wrote:
"•In July, expect to cancel approximately 40-45 flights a day, or roughly 1,290 flights for the month
•In August, expect to cancel approximately 60 flights a day, or roughly 1,900 flights for the month
•In September, expect to cancel approximately 70 flights a day, or roughly 2,100 flights for the month
•In October, expect to cancel approximately 95 flights a day, or roughly 2,900 flights for the month "

Yeah I saw that on Flying Together but what I'm not sure of is the exact number of MAX9s that are supposed to be in the fleet by November 2019, and how many are supposed to be in the fleet by spring 2020. I can do some research when I get to work tomorrow but thats what I was unsure of off the top of my head.

By the end of 2019, there should have been 30 United 737MAX-9s built..........

mmahpeel · Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:40 pm

mmahpeel wrote:
Some interesting configuration changes for the 787-8 and -9 directly resulting from the Polaris and premium Y installations -

787-8 will be 28/21/194 (from 36/183, an increase in density resulting in part from the removal of the galley complex at door 3)

787-9 will be 48/21/188 (from 48/204, some lavatory and galley changes in the back cabin)

Here are the number of economy plus seats in the new configurations:

787-8 - 34 (reduction from 70 in current config)

787-9 - 37 (reduction from 88 in current config)

Additionally, how the economy plus seats are placed in the cabin isn't necessarily contiguous. There was clearly an emphasis on optimizing every available inch of real estate in the new configurations. I'm unable to upload a graphic image of seat maps for obvious reasons but I'm sure someone will at some point....

codc10 · Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:49 pm

mmahpeel wrote:
787-9 - 37 (reduction from 88 in current config)

IMO, this is a MASSIVE, MASSIVE downgrade, considering that the 789s fly United's longest routes. Premium Economy (21) plus E+ is only 58 seats on this airplane, meaning 12 Economy pax, most likely Premier members, will be forced into standard Y seats for 15+ hour flights. Not a good thing.

calpsafltskeds · Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:02 pm

UPDATING POST due someone posting E+ seating on 788/789.

I'm not disagreeing with anyone, just pointing out that UA has dropped total Premium Y seating when Polaris is added. I was just estimating what it looked like could fit and trading E+ seats for Y seats is one way to pick up 3 or 4 inches per row. With PE, obviously you'd expect at least an equal amount of E+ would go. I sure hope UA finds a way to keep as much E+ seating as possible, but unless Y goes from 31 to 30 inches, I believe there will be a cut in the total of seats of PE +E+ vs. previous E+. Newer configurations are in the 12 to 17% E+ percentage.

The below list shows non-Polaris and Polaris sorted by highest premium Y seating. According to my chart, Excluding the 76L, E+ and PE totals range have been shrinking from 32 to 34% on current 787s to the low to mid 20% range. I've included the real possibility that E+ will get one more row on 787 aircraft than I estimated - I hope this happens w/o cutting Y to 30 inches.

76L: 28.8% E+/11% PE = 39.2%, this is a special config I'm not including as it will be used on premium routes.

Un-reconfigured aircraft have high E+ totals, expect E+/PE totals to drop when Polaris added
789: Current 34.9% E+, Going to 14.4% E+/8.2%PE, Total 22.6%
788: Current 32.0% E+, Going to 14.0% E+/8.6%PE, Total 22.6%
764: Current 29.2% E+, Proposed going to something like 15.1% E+/7.8%PE, Total 22.9%

Polaris reconfigured/Polaris deliveries have lower E+/PE totals.
772: 12.5% E+/8.7% PE, Total 25.4%
77W: 17.7% E+/6.9% PE, Total 24.6%
763: 21.5% E+, no PE
78X: 14.2% E+/6.6% PE, Total 20.8%

It appears to me that UA will choose less premium routes for the 788 and 78X fleet, thus E+/PE totals can be lower as well.

fun2fly · Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:17 pm

codc10 wrote:
mmahpeel wrote:
787-9 - 37 (reduction from 88 in current config)

IMO, this is a MASSIVE, MASSIVE downgrade, considering that the 789s fly United's longest routes. Premium Economy (21) plus E+ is only 58 seats on this airplane, meaning 12 Economy pax, most likely Premier members, will be forced into standard Y seats for 15+ hour flights. Not a good thing.

It's basically steering closer to the DL model = fewer E+ seats. Why I currently fly UA for international is that fact I can book late and get a free E+ aisle seat due to greater availability. There is no way I'd do a NRT or PVG hop w/o E+, or in the middle of E+ so UA may push away the best customers.

For example, on the 764:
Y E+ PE J
UA 145 35 18 34
DL 156 28 20 34

So, technically, UA has more premium seating opportunities on this a/c. On the 763, 46 E+ on UA vs. 29-32 on DL. Can't really compare 772's due to 28 J for DL which skews the real estate, plus the 9 vs. 10 per row.

All those that want UA to close the gap with DL in earnings...here you go.

calpsafltskeds · Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:21 pm

codc10 wrote:
mmahpeel wrote:
787-9 - 37 (reduction from 88 in current config)

IMO, this is a MASSIVE, MASSIVE downgrade, considering that the 789s fly United's longest routes. Premium Economy (21) plus E+ is only 58 seats on this airplane, meaning 12 Economy pax, most likely Premier members, will be forced into standard Y seats for 15+ hour flights. Not a good thing.

30 pax, not 12. 21PE +37E+=58. 88- 58 =30 fewer premium economy seats.

Maybe UA will offer lower cost upgrades to E+ to get more cash from FF members. Not saying its right, but UA must be looking at how many E+ seats are needed for paying passengers and how many they need above that to do more limited upgrades.

codc10 · Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:32 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
codc10 wrote:
mmahpeel wrote:
787-9 - 37 (reduction from 88 in current config)

IMO, this is a MASSIVE, MASSIVE downgrade, considering that the 789s fly United's longest routes. Premium Economy (21) plus E+ is only 58 seats on this airplane, meaning 12 Economy pax, most likely Premier members, will be forced into standard Y seats for 15+ hour flights. Not a good thing.

30 pax, not 12. 21PE +37E+=58. 88- 58 =30 fewer premium economy seats.

Maybe UA will offer lower cost upgrades to E+ to get more cash from FF members. Not saying its right, but UA must be looking at how many E+ seats are needed for paying passengers and how many they need above that to do more limited upgrades.

I can't count... mixed up 788. That's even worse.

I wonder if UA will further dial back on the number of Premier members that have immediate, free access to E+?

jayunited · Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:48 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
UPDATING POST due someone posting E+ seating on 788/789.

I'm not disagreeing with anyone, just pointing out that UA has dropped total Premium Y seating when Polaris is added. I was just estimating what it looked like could fit and trading E+ seats for Y seats is one way to pick up 3 or 4 inches per row. With PE, obviously you'd expect at least an equal amount of E+ would go. I sure hope UA finds a way to keep as much E+ seating as possible, but unless Y goes from 31 to 30 inches, I believe there will be a cut in the total of seats of PE +E+ vs. previous E+. Newer configurations are in the 12 to 17% E+ percentage.

The below list shows non-Polaris and Polaris sorted by highest premium Y seating. According to my chart, Excluding the 76L, E+ and PE totals range have been shrinking from 32 to 34% on current 787s to the low to mid 20% range. I've included the real possibility that E+ will get one more row on 787 aircraft than I estimated - I hope this happens w/o cutting Y to 30 inches.

76L: 28.8% E+/11% PE = 39.2%, this is a special config I'm not including as it will be used on premium routes.

Un-reconfigured aircraft have high E+ totals, expect E+/PE totals to drop when Polaris added
789: Current 34.9% E+, Going to 14.4% E+/8.2%PE, Total 22.6%
788: Current 32.0% E+, Going to 14.0% E+/8.6%PE, Total 22.6%
764: Current 29.2% E+, Proposed going to something like 15.1% E+/7.8%PE, Total 22.9%

Polaris reconfigured/Polaris deliveries have lower E+/PE totals.
772: 12.5% E+/8.7% PE, Total 25.4%
77W: 17.7% E+/6.9% PE, Total 24.6%
763: 21.5% E+, no PE
78X: 14.2% E+/6.6% PE, Total 20.8%

It appears to me that UA will choose less premium routes for the 788 and 78X fleet, thus E+/PE totals can be lower as well.

I don't see UA cutting seat pitch to 30 inches but in my opinion your standard coach seat count on the 788 seems a bit high at 171 standard coach seats.
Secondly I think you are being far to conservative with the economy plus seat count on the 789s like I said earlier when combined with the P.E. seat count the drop off isn't as drastic but I don't see UA only having 32 economy plus seats on our 789s. I'm not suggesting the 789s will be as premium heavy as the 76Ls but I think you are being to conservative with the total number of economy plus seats. I think the regular coach seat count will drop slightly just because the markets where UA utilizes the 789s they have no problem selling out the premium and extra leg room seats. I think the percentage of E+ seats on the 789 will be closer to 15% instead of the 12.5% and the standard coach percentage will come down slightly while maintaining 31 inch pitch.

However I do think you are spot on with the 764 fleet

Boeing12345 · Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:14 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
73Gs could be WestJet, SAS or China Southern or China Eastern. Only airlines with big enough fleet except Southwest and UA won't buy aircraft with that many cycles.

Doubt WestJet as they have MAX issues as does China Southern. SAS doesn't show MAX aircraft in fleet.

I was shocked about a month or so ago when I heard this internally. These aircraft are coming from another US operator that inherited them thru a merger. The reason I'm shocked is because this operator has the most 737-8's parked in the USA.

codc10 · Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:28 pm

Boeing12345 wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
73Gs could be WestJet, SAS or China Southern or China Eastern. Only airlines with big enough fleet except Southwest and UA won't buy aircraft with that many cycles.

Doubt WestJet as they have MAX issues as does China Southern. SAS doesn't show MAX aircraft in fleet.

I was shocked about a month or so ago when I heard this internally. These aircraft are coming from another US operator that inherited them thru a merger. The reason I'm shocked is because this operator has the most 737-8's parked in the USA.

Obviously, this would mean Southwest. Possibly among the 22 737-76N (former AirTran) delivered between 2004-2006? These frames would have spent the first 8-10 years of their lives operating slightly longer stage lengths with fewer cycles than original WN birds dating from 1997 and no doubt approaching retirement.

Okcflyer · Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:36 pm

Boeing12345 wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
73Gs could be WestJet, SAS or China Southern or China Eastern. Only airlines with big enough fleet except Southwest and UA won't buy aircraft with that many cycles.

Doubt WestJet as they have MAX issues as does China Southern. SAS doesn't show MAX aircraft in fleet.

I was shocked about a month or so ago when I heard this internally. These aircraft are coming from another US operator that inherited them thru a merger. The reason I'm shocked is because this operator has the most 737-8's parked in the USA.

Wow! That’s crazy. Must be conditional such that the planes only leave if MAX is flying again. At least the paperwork for each bird will be easier. I wonder if UA will install the dark blue/gray PSU components their NG aircraft use or keep WN’s cream white ones?

— Regarding E+ on the widebody fleet ... One of the easier things to model/predict has to be E+ sales and upgrades. UA treats FF’s very well and they’ve done a good job of keeping MP valuable over time. Just recently they streamlined the free baggage allowance for FF’s which resulted in an upgraded allowance for most. I STRONGLY doubt the E+ seat count is being reduced to the point availability (probability really) significantly changes for elites. They’re just cutting out the free upgrades to non elites who get the free upgrades today because there are just too many seats available. Plus, if trends change, it’ll be easy pull a row of seats (or reduce Y pitch further) to add another row or two. Anyway, highly doubt it’s an issue for Gold or above who can pick E+ at booking. Silver may feel a bit of a pinch due to not being able to select them until checking. And most silver’s aren’t spending more than $3k/year anyway so it’s not like they’re super elite anyway.

danipawa · Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:31 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
73Gs could be WestJet, SAS or China Southern or China Eastern. Only airlines with big enough fleet except Southwest and UA won't buy aircraft with that many cycles.

Doubt WestJet as they have MAX issues as does China Southern. SAS doesn't show MAX aircraft in fleet.

Hello Copa...

phllax · Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:40 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
UA has never had more than a few gates on the D concourse. and with Hubs at EWR and IAD? I do not see why they would. PHL is a good station for UAL but they don't seem to have the interest in making it much bigger and Haven't since 1984 when I hired in at UAL. and PHL is my home town..

The did drop LAX, which I wish they would bring back. They also did hold PHL-LHR route authority for some time but never used it. There has also been a massive reduction in ORD service as well since the almost hourly service during the BusinessOne days, even with AA and US flying to CHI (US went to both ORD and MDW at times). What they did change was capacity. LAX/SFO/DEN/ORD all used to see DC-8/757/767/DC-10 service.

n471wn · Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:08 pm

I do not believe these birds are coming from WN. On another UA thread an individual says they are coming from COPA

codc10 · Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:53 pm

n471wn wrote:
I do not believe these birds are coming from WN. On another UA thread an individual says they are coming from COPA

Copa is down to 9 73Gs, though. Reportedly 2 are sourced from Bangladesh, so there's still a gap.

CONTACREW · Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:01 am

Seat maps for the reconfigured 788/789 via TPG:

https://thepointsguy.com/news/united-78 ... -retrofit/

n7371f · Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:54 am

Scott Kirby'd

codc10 wrote:
mmahpeel wrote:
787-9 - 37 (reduction from 88 in current config)

IMO, this is a MASSIVE, MASSIVE downgrade, considering that the 789s fly United's longest routes. Premium Economy (21) plus E+ is only 58 seats on this airplane, meaning 12 Economy pax, most likely Premier members, will be forced into standard Y seats for 15+ hour flights. Not a good thing.

phllax · Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:04 am

codc10 wrote:
n471wn wrote:
I do not believe these birds are coming from WN. On another UA thread an individual says they are coming from COPA

Copa is down to 9 73Gs, though. Reportedly 2 are sourced from Bangladesh, so there's still a gap.

What about the 11 Alaska has and the 4 Sun Country has?

UAinAUS · Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:06 am

UAX Update:

CR5:
N166GJ back in revenue service as CR7, next E175 not yet delivered
N163GJ ferried TUS for CR5 interior
N159GJ ferried TUS for CR5 interior

Boeing12345 · Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:21 pm

n471wn wrote:
I do not believe these birds are coming from WN. On another UA thread an individual says they are coming from COPA

Guess we will wait and see about that....

jayunited · Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:36 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
UPDATING POST due someone posting E+ seating on 788/789.

I'm not disagreeing with anyone, just pointing out that UA has dropped total Premium Y seating when Polaris is added. I was just estimating what it looked like could fit and trading E+ seats for Y seats is one way to pick up 3 or 4 inches per row. With PE, obviously you'd expect at least an equal amount of E+ would go. I sure hope UA finds a way to keep as much E+ seating as possible, but unless Y goes from 31 to 30 inches, I believe there will be a cut in the total of seats of PE +E+ vs. previous E+. Newer configurations are in the 12 to 17% E+ percentage.

The below list shows non-Polaris and Polaris sorted by highest premium Y seating. According to my chart, Excluding the 76L, E+ and PE totals range have been shrinking from 32 to 34% on current 787s to the low to mid 20% range. I've included the real possibility that E+ will get one more row on 787 aircraft than I estimated - I hope this happens w/o cutting Y to 30 inches.

76L: 28.8% E+/11% PE = 39.2%, this is a special config I'm not including as it will be used on premium routes.

Un-reconfigured aircraft have high E+ totals, expect E+/PE totals to drop when Polaris added
789: Current 34.9% E+, Going to 14.4% E+/8.2%PE, Total 22.6%
788: Current 32.0% E+, Going to 14.0% E+/8.6%PE, Total 22.6%
764: Current 29.2% E+, Proposed going to something like 15.1% E+/7.8%PE, Total 22.9%

Polaris reconfigured/Polaris deliveries have lower E+/PE totals.
772: 12.5% E+/8.7% PE, Total 25.4%
77W: 17.7% E+/6.9% PE, Total 24.6%
763: 21.5% E+, no PE
78X: 14.2% E+/6.6% PE, Total 20.8%

It appears to me that UA will choose less premium routes for the 788 and 78X fleet, thus E+/PE totals can be lower as well.

The points guy.com was given the official seat map and your estimates for the 788/789 fleet were pretty close to being spot on.
The 788s will have 28J, 21PE, 36E+, and 158E.
The 789s will have 48J, 21PE, 39E+ and 149E.
While I'm still a bit disappointed that E+ is so small, the way one of my coworkers broke it down to me was like this the 789s will have 108 seats giving passengers a choice between an extra 4-5 inches of leg room all the way to lie flat seating, and 149 regular economy seats. They were like AA's 789s only have 87 seats from main cabin extra to lie flat seats. So when compared to AA's 789s, UA's 789s have a lot more seats for sale that offer passengers more personal space.

MIflyer12 · Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:47 pm

jayunited wrote:
It saddens me to see economy plus being gutted. I get if we add P.E. seats with the economy plus seats the drop off isn't that drastic but considering some of the long haul flights UA utilizes the 789s on I was hoping for a larger E+ cabin, to go from 88 to 32 seats is a bit disappointing considering the seat count in regular economy will go up.

It would be interesting to see what UA/AA/DL sell in premium cabins by route and by aircraft vs. what they give away to elites. I expect the long-term plan is to give away very little. The big fraction of E+ seats has been a differentiator for UA.

CALTECH · Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:07 pm

Parked Airbus Aircraft

4868 N4868U GYR
4867 N5867U BFI
4866 N4866U GYR
4869 N4869U BFI
4870 N870UB GYR
4871 ..............CAN
4876 BSMX ..XMN
4877 BSMX...XMN

There are 25 787-10s scheduled. And these were the subCAL orders....

Nose #/Type/ ...MFG S/N/ N #/ .....Fuse #/......FMR OP/REG
1001 ...787-10 .40936 ......N14001 0731 ........CO
1002 ...787-10 .40930 ......N17002 0763 ........CO
1003 ...787-10 .40935 ......N12003 0782 ........CO
1004 ...787-10 .60139 ......N12004 0795 ........CO
1005 ...787-10 .40937 ......N12005 0800 ........CO
1006 ...787-10 .60140 ......N12006 0814 ........CO
1007 ...787-10 .40929 ......N91007 0548 ........CO
1008 ...787-10 .60138 ......N16008 0822 ........CO
1009 ...787-10 .40938 ..... N16009 0828 ........CO
1010 ...787-10 .60145 ......N12010 0948 ........CO
1011 ...787-10 .40940 .......N14011 0950 ........CO
1012 ...787-10 .40926 ......N12012 0964 ........CO
1013 ...787-10 .40931 ......N13013 0996 ........CO
1014 ...787-10 .40934 ......N13014 TBD .........CO
1015 ...787-10 .TBD .........N17015 TBD .........CO
1016 ...787-10 .TBD .........N14016 TBD .........CO
1017 ...787-10 .TBD .........N17017 TBD .........CO
1018 ...787-10 .TBD .........N13018 TBD .........CO
1019 ...787-10 .TBD .........N14019 TBD .........CO
1020 ...787-10 .TBD .........N12020 TBD .........CO
1021 ...787-10 .TBD .........N12021 TBD .........CO
1022 ...787-10 .TBD .........N17022 TBD .........CO
1023 ...787-10 .TBD .........N14023 TBD .........CO
1024 ...787-10 .TBD .........N12024 TBD .........CO
1025 ...787-10 .TBD .........N12025 TBD .........CO

jayunited · Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:07 pm

United Airlines wants Boeing to make a decision whether they intend to launch the NMA. According to Flight Global UA is willing to give Boeing a little more time but really would like some clarity.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ma-459767/

While UA doesn't give a time frame as to how much more time they are willing to give Boeing the fact that they are asking for clarity as to Boeing's intentions means UA knows time is running out. UA seems to want to place an order to replace both the 757 and 763s at the same time and in my opinion deliveries to replace the 763s need to start at some point in mid to late 2025-2026. The article states UA is considering the A330-800, A321LR and A321XLR, however earlier this year Kirby did state UA is considering order more 788s as a possible 763 replacement.

Whatever direction UA ends up taking I think UA may give Boeing till mid January 2020 to make a decision to launch the NMA. If Boeing still hasn't made a decision on the NMA by then I think UA at the very least will go with a mixture of A321LR/XLRs and probably more 788s

calpsafltskeds · Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:01 am

772:
N220UA sked to exit XMN 2761/20Jul, maint only
N792UA expected to enter XMN after 895/19Jul, maint only, already has Polaris

VC10er · Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:29 am

It is disappointing to see E+ being dramatically reduced, however I have wondered how much UA makes from buy ups to E+? As a United GS flier, I just booked a domestic trip for me and 2 friends. The rep on the phone said that I can bring up to 8 guests into E+ (I was astonished!)
So, I’m assuming now a much smaller percentage of pax who have paid for E+.
As for international WBs I don’t know how much it generally costs to by up to E+. But, with UA trying to become a truly premium airline, aside from 4-5 inches of room does an international E+ get? (Or on very long NB flights?)
If United were to actually make E+ even a bit better with amenities such as:
Hot Towels
Champagne
Eye Shades
Ear Plugs
Dental kit
Better pillows and blankets
(Maybe even chocolate or Stroopwaffles :-)

Perhaps UA could actually charge a little bit more for E+ and create some level of excitement over making E+ “sleep friendly” also, vs many who buy up because they are over 6.2 ft tall.
I think word of mouth about how great E+ is - (over and above 4-5 inches of legroom) would do wonders for the main cabin reputation on UA.
QUESTION: on a 777, is E+ also 10 abreast or did they keep 9 abreast?

notconcerned · Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:42 pm

VC10er wrote:
QUESTION: on a 777, is E+ also 10 abreast or did they keep 9 abreast?

UA 777 E+ is 3-4-3, so 10 abreast. AA 777 is also 3-4-3, they used to have 3-3-3 Y+ until they installed PE and made Y+ 10 abreast. DL 777 remains the only one with 3-3-3 in both Y+ and Y-.

dmstorm22 · Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:09 pm

VC10er wrote:
It is disappointing to see E+ being dramatically reduced, however I have wondered how much UA makes from buy ups to E+? As a United GS flier, I just booked a domestic trip for me and 2 friends. The rep on the phone said that I can bring up to 8 guests into E+ (I was astonished!)
So, I’m assuming now a much smaller percentage of pax who have paid for E+.
As for international WBs I don’t know how much it generally costs to by up to E+. But, with UA trying to become a truly premium airline, aside from 4-5 inches of room does an international E+ get? (Or on very long NB flights?)
If United were to actually make E+ even a bit better with amenities such as:
Hot Towels
Champagne
Eye Shades
Ear Plugs
Dental kit
Better pillows and blankets
(Maybe even chocolate or Stroopwaffles
Perhaps UA could actually charge a little bit more for E+ and create some level of excitement over making E+ “sleep friendly” also, vs many who buy up because they are over 6.2 ft tall.
I think word of mouth about how great E+ is - (over and above 4-5 inches of legroom) would do wonders for the main cabin reputation on UA.
QUESTION: on a 777, is E+ also 10 abreast or did they keep 9 abreast?

This is so true. It really seems to be that E+ is just a perk for UA FFs and not really a differentiated class. The one exception is their P.S. flights were E+ gets meal service.

intotheair · Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:32 pm

VC10er wrote:
It is disappointing to see E+ being dramatically reduced, however I have wondered how much UA makes from buy ups to E+? As a United GS flier, I just booked a domestic trip for me and 2 friends. The rep on the phone said that I can bring up to 8 guests into E+ (I was astonished!)
So, I’m assuming now a much smaller percentage of pax who have paid for E+.
As for international WBs I don’t know how much it generally costs to by up to E+. But, with UA trying to become a truly premium airline, aside from 4-5 inches of room does an international E+ get? (Or on very long NB flights?)

I was a Premier Silver long ago and continued to buy up into E+ even after I lost my status. I stopped a few years ago when the fees increased to a point where I didn't think it was worth it anymore.

6-8 years ago, an E+ window or aisle on a route like SFO-DEN was about $40 each way, and I'd say it was about ~$110 each way on a TATL flight. Now, I just did some dummy bookings, and SFO-LHR in E+ is an extra $209 each way and E+ on SFO-DEN is $99. The fees can really fluctuate, but those numbers give you a good idea of what to expect. They also offer some bundles of E+ along with a checked back or club access for more money.

That may be worth it for someone who's very tall, but I'm 5'9", fairly slim, and no longer attempt to use my 15" laptop on flights anymore, so I think E+ just isn't a good value at that price point.

I think E+ might include some additional service on the very long hauls, though I could be wrong about that. For the most part, UA E+ is the exact same product as E- only with extra legroom.

This is one place where I think DL really has a better product. DL in my experience charges a little bit less for Comfort+ compared to UA, and in addition to the extra legroom, C+ also includes priority boarding, premium snacks, free adult beverages on all flights, and a mileage bonus.

Oh, and let's also not forget that UA now has "Preferred Seating," which is a fee to choose a seat closer to the front of the E- cabin.

notconcerned · Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:33 pm

intotheair wrote:
This is one place where I think DL really has a better product. DL in my experience charges a little bit less for Comfort+ compared to UA, and in addition to the extra legroom, C+ also includes priority boarding, premium snacks, free adult beverages on all flights, and a mileage bonus.

Oh, and let's also not forget that UA now has "Preferred Seating," which is a fee to choose a seat closer to the front of the E- cabin.

The value proposition is different for DL because DM/Plat/Gold still have to upgrade to Y+ (either after ticketing or at T-72), so DL is probably selling more Y+ seats (and wants to sell them) at the expense of Gold/Silver elites who can't select them until their upgrade clears. UA provides E+ mainly as a benefit to 1K/Plat/Gold elites since they can select a E+ at booking.

The addition of PE is probably the main cause of losing E+, and upselling passengers to more expensive PE seat with more benefits. I'm just glad they're not shirking J cabin (except for the 788) for the PE space.

intotheair · Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:27 pm

notconcerned wrote:
The value proposition is different for DL because DM/Plat/Gold still have to upgrade to Y+ (either after ticketing or at T-72), so DL is probably selling more Y+ seats (and wants to sell them) at the expense of Gold/Silver elites who can't select them until their upgrade clears. UA provides E+ mainly as a benefit to 1K/Plat/Gold elites since they can select a E+ at booking.

Oh, good point. I forgot about all the complaints on that other site from DL elites who waitlist to get into C+ and then automatically get upgraded but into a middle seat.

jetblastdubai · Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:37 pm

notconcerned wrote:
The value proposition is different for DL because DM/Plat/Gold still have to upgrade to Y+ (either after ticketing or at T-72), so DL is probably selling more Y+ seats (and wants to sell them) at the expense of Gold/Silver elites who can't select them until their upgrade clears. UA provides E+ mainly as a benefit to 1K/Plat/Gold elites since they can select a E+ at booking.

This is why it's so important to keep your status with UA. I can't imagine flying more than an hour or so in anything less than E+. In the past I made sure to take a couple mileage runs towards the end of the year if I was going to be a bit short of my 1P status. Luckily I was able to do most of these before the new mileage calculations kicked in and you earned mileage based on your ticket price. Once I hit 1 million miles and therefore earned Gold status for life the mileage runs stopped. I did some absolutely idiotic day trips or Int'l 2-day trips in my younger days that even made the agents laugh.

The power of FF programs keeping passengers loyal is pretty powerful IMO.

ericm2031 · Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:09 pm

Has there been any update on the A319/320 going to 12F and 16F? I know A319s we’re planned for end of this year, but will all this be postponed until the MAX is restored? And are the used birds coming online going to come with the new configurations?

KVH68 · Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:08 pm

A United maintenance manager told a group of people that the 737s we are buying are coming from Southwest.

calpsafltskeds · Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:58 am

772:
N78003 sked to exit HKG 896/22Jul, Polaris/PE (unconfirmed seat maps)
N78004 sked to enter HKG 895/20Jul, Polaris/PE

UAinAUS · Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:43 am

UAX Update:

CR2:
N965SW has exited the fleet, stored

E175SC:
N607UX entered revenue service 19Jul
N608UX has been delivered to ExpressJet
N609UX has been delivered to ExpressJet

jayunited · Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:23 pm

KVH68 wrote:
A United maintenance manager told a group of people that the 737s we are buying are coming from Southwest.

WN aircraft shortage is even worst than UA's do to the MAX grounding. Why would WN sale 737s to UA at a time when they (WN) need them most? Most aviation experts are saying the MAX more than likely will not fly until some time in 2020 and passengers should prepare themselves for higher than usual fare during the Holiday Season do to expected strong demand but less supply do to the MAX grounding. Perhaps the maintenance manager is right but I have my doubts seeing that deliveries are to commence in December 2019.

calpsafltskeds · Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:10 pm

The 73Gs have to be 19 of 22 leased GECAS units. Could it be UA "outbid" or purchased the aircraft and WN didn't wasn't interested in a purchase? I don't believe we know the delivery schedule - It could be 1 or 2 a month, which wouldn't harm WN much in the first half of 2020.
I wonder if UA will pick up the pace of Induction of used units - it takes forever to get a "new" unit into service.

GmoneyCO · Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:13 pm

Southwest announced plans to retire 20 of the "oldest" 737-700s starting in 2019 during the FY18 earnings release in February. At least some part of this was in motion before the MAX grounding happened and WN may not have wanted to pay what it was going to cost to extend the leases post-grounding thinking the MAX grounding wasn't going to be as long as it has been and will likely be.

That said, most of the frames leased from GECAS don't fall into the "oldest" category. Most are in the 13/14/15 year range and are under the average age of WN's 73G fleet of 15.1 years. Will be interesting. With the deal now public, maybe we'll see a table with former tail & serial numbers come along before long.

codc10 · Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:28 pm

GmoneyCO wrote:
Southwest announced plans to retire 20 of the "oldest" 737-700s starting in 2019 during the FY18 earnings release in February. At least some part of this was in motion before the MAX grounding happened and WN may not have wanted to pay what it was going to cost to extend the leases post-grounding thinking the MAX grounding wasn't going to be as long as it has been and will likely be.

That said, most of the frames leased from GECAS don't fall into the "oldest" category. Most are in the 13/14/15 year range and are under the average age of WN's 73G fleet of 15.1 years. Will be interesting. With the deal now public, maybe we'll see a table with former tail & serial numbers come along before long.

I doubt United would be interested in the "oldest" 73Gs at Southwest, many of which are in pushing 45k cycles. The ex-AirTran frames are comparatively younger and certainly more attractive for a decade or so of prospective UAL service with slightly cushier utilization.

calpsafltskeds · Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:04 pm

With airspace restrictions lifted, UA announced EWR-BOM and EWR-DEL service resumption on September 6, 2019. Would seem to match traditional pulldown of high season service.

VC10er · Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:33 pm

jetblastdubai wrote:
notconcerned wrote:
The value proposition is different for DL because DM/Plat/Gold still have to upgrade to Y+ (either after ticketing or at T-72), so DL is probably selling more Y+ seats (and wants to sell them) at the expense of Gold/Silver elites who can't select them until their upgrade clears. UA provides E+ mainly as a benefit to 1K/Plat/Gold elites since they can select a E+ at booking.

This is why it's so important to keep your status with UA. I can't imagine flying more than an hour or so in anything less than E+. In the past I made sure to take a couple mileage runs towards the end of the year if I was going to be a bit short of my 1P status. Luckily I was able to do most of these before the new mileage calculations kicked in and you earned mileage based on your ticket price. Once I hit 1 million miles and therefore earned Gold status for life the mileage runs stopped. I did some absolutely idiotic day trips or Int'l 2-day trips in my younger days that even made the agents laugh.

The power of FF programs keeping passengers loyal is pretty powerful IMO.

If United got anything right (for their bottom line) is that loyalty pays off. If you are someone who flies often, and you consistently stick with UA, you can earn status rather quickly, and one can feel the ROI pretty fast. Although, I can feel that as UA becomes a much better airline (however it is still a WIP) that they won’t feel the need to use a very generous MP program as a customer magnet. In the 1990’s through most of the 2000s, the amount of miles one could earn on 1 international business RT was amazing once the bonus miles were added (3-4 RTs to Europe or South America, and you could score a RT F Class ticket on a 747 to Sydney! Back then, getting a free ticket (actually use your miles on the flight you wanted), with a friend or family was pretty easy.

After 30 years, and given my current status and lifetime miles, if I encounter an issue with a rule or something, I am often amazed at how a representative will put me on hold for a minute, speak to a supervisor and “poof” the “you can’t” becomes “Ok Mr B, no problem, everything is taken care of”

My only fear is when Polaris,PE is 100% is done, Polaris Longes, United Clubs are consistently great throughout the network, the gate areas at hubs have great, attractive seating, (personally) I think the new boarding process is much better, consistently good operations and a positive, empowered workforce - United will fundamentally become a NEW airline and then finding that Polaris seat to wherever will become very difficult because they will easily sell them.

My advice is however; marry someone senior at a big airline!

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net