jayunited
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:13 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
Can I ask at this point if UA, in retrospect, would have hoped their last 6 772A aircraft received in 2000 were really 772ER aircraft? It appears UA will convert 4 772ERs to domestic configuration soon.


I don't think UA has any regrets about purchasing 6 772As in 2000, those aircraft have served a their purpose which was to allow UA to reenter the ORD-HNL market launch ORD-OGG and back then provided much needed lift for our LAX-HNL and SFO-Hawaii flights. Fast forward to 2019 and it seems like UA may not be retiring as many 763s as they had originally reported, we have now entered a phase where we are no longer replacing retiring widebodies instead we are growing our widebody fleet. That growth is giving UA the ability to transition 4 77Es from international service to domestic service.
My hope is this UA saves and refurbishes the diamond seats currently on the GE 77Es. Then takes those seats and install them on the entire domestic high density 777s getting rid of IPTE completely. UA can fit 28 diamond seats between doors 1L/R and 2L/R. I then would like to see UA undo Smiseks biggest mistake on the high density fleet and reinstall PTV's on the 13 former internationally configured 77A models. UA could then restrict the remaining original 6 domestically configured 77As to West Cost -Hawaii and/or SFO/LAX-DEN/IAH/ORD routes only where the flight time is around 5 hours or less.
Getting ride of IPTE replacing it with completely refurbished diamond seats from the GE 77Es, and reinstalling PTV's on the 13 former international 77A models while leaving the PTV's on these 4 77Es would allow UA to once again have a competitive hard product to on our long haul Hawaii flights, and it would address a problem for passengers in coach on 77As on our EWR-SFO/LAX routes.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:36 pm

Interesting that airlines would buy an aircraft that would have a double wide aisle. Every aircraft has gone to more seats per row if possible.
Boeing would be making an aircraft that would not allow a 7 across with a second aisle and 4 across between the widow and aisle won't work safety-wise. But, wouldn't you think UA would go with wider Y seats for the 6 across instead of a super wide aisle? Something like a 19-20 inch Y seat would be a huge thing for passengers. Spread the extra width across extra aisle and seats.

I would agree maybe premium seating could benefit from a slightly wider tube as Diamond type seats could have all-aisle access with 1-2-1 seating. But, UA wants to also use these aircraft TATL and Polaris is the standard. Polaris won't fit properly on a wider narrowbodied tube. And a 767 to 772 wide aircraft is more efficient with more seats per aisle with Polaris seating.

An extra 20 inch wide tube would not allow for efficient containerized cargo and the bin would only be slightly taller than 737/57s.

763:
N655UA entered MCO 2729/12Aug, sked to exit 2760/14Aug, another 763 into MCO for a short stay
N667UA appears headed to HKG after EWR-HNL ferry 2758/16Aug, High J Polaris expected
 
Scarebus34
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:33 pm

intotheair wrote:
Seth Miller reporting that UA is converting some MAX orders to the -8, which has been already discussed here. He’s also reporting that UA will install PTVs on some MAX planes, which goes against the current steaming-only plan.

https://paxex.aero/2019/08/united-airli ... paign=3199

They have been surveying elite passengers frequently as it relates to inflight amenities.... my guess is they have data to support AVOD would enhance customer satisfaction enough that it’s worth the investment moving forward.
 
heretothere
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:02 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
intotheair wrote:
Seth Miller reporting that UA is converting some MAX orders to the -8, which has been already discussed here. He’s also reporting that UA will install PTVs on some MAX planes, which goes against the current steaming-only plan.

https://paxex.aero/2019/08/united-airli ... paign=3199

They have been surveying elite passengers frequently as it relates to inflight amenities.... my guess is they have data to support AVOD would enhance customer satisfaction enough that it’s worth the investment moving forward.


I wouldn’t expect TVs on anything other than the PS/lie-flat MAX 10s but I’d love to be wrong.
 
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DolphinAir747
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:49 pm

jayunited wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
Can I ask at this point if UA, in retrospect, would have hoped their last 6 772A aircraft received in 2000 were really 772ER aircraft? It appears UA will convert 4 772ERs to domestic configuration soon.


I don't think UA has any regrets about purchasing 6 772As in 2000, those aircraft have served a their purpose which was to allow UA to reenter the ORD-HNL market launch ORD-OGG and back then provided much needed lift for our LAX-HNL and SFO-Hawaii flights. Fast forward to 2019 and it seems like UA may not be retiring as many 763s as they had originally reported, we have now entered a phase where we are no longer replacing retiring widebodies instead we are growing our widebody fleet. That growth is giving UA the ability to transition 4 77Es from international service to domestic service.
My hope is this UA saves and refurbishes the diamond seats currently on the GE 77Es. Then takes those seats and install them on the entire domestic high density 777s getting rid of IPTE completely. UA can fit 28 diamond seats between doors 1L/R and 2L/R. I then would like to see UA undo Smiseks biggest mistake on the high density fleet and reinstall PTV's on the 13 former internationally configured 77A models. UA could then restrict the remaining original 6 domestically configured 77As to West Cost -Hawaii and/or SFO/LAX-DEN/IAH/ORD routes only where the flight time is around 5 hours or less.
Getting ride of IPTE replacing it with completely refurbished diamond seats from the GE 77Es, and reinstalling PTV's on the 13 former international 77A models while leaving the PTV's on these 4 77Es would allow UA to once again have a competitive hard product to on our long haul Hawaii flights, and it would address a problem for passengers in coach on 77As on our EWR-SFO/LAX routes.


What if UA were to go with Polaris seats on the domestic 77A (for product consistency - yes it might be overkill on domestic hub-to-hubs but the 77As sometimes fly transatlantic as well as premium transcons and those flights have Polaris seats). How many could they fit in that same area versus 28 IPTE/Diamond seats?
 
Scarebus34
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:50 pm

heretothere wrote:
Scarebus34 wrote:
intotheair wrote:
Seth Miller reporting that UA is converting some MAX orders to the -8, which has been already discussed here. He’s also reporting that UA will install PTVs on some MAX planes, which goes against the current steaming-only plan.

https://paxex.aero/2019/08/united-airli ... paign=3199

They have been surveying elite passengers frequently as it relates to inflight amenities.... my guess is they have data to support AVOD would enhance customer satisfaction enough that it’s worth the investment moving forward.


I wouldn’t expect TVs on anything other than the PS/lie-flat MAX 10s but I’d love to be wrong.

You’re likely right. However, at some point someone at UA needs to realize they’re going to have to compete on customer experience.
 
Scarebus34
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:52 pm

DolphinAir747 wrote:
jayunited wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
Can I ask at this point if UA, in retrospect, would have hoped their last 6 772A aircraft received in 2000 were really 772ER aircraft? It appears UA will convert 4 772ERs to domestic configuration soon.


I don't think UA has any regrets about purchasing 6 772As in 2000, those aircraft have served a their purpose which was to allow UA to reenter the ORD-HNL market launch ORD-OGG and back then provided much needed lift for our LAX-HNL and SFO-Hawaii flights. Fast forward to 2019 and it seems like UA may not be retiring as many 763s as they had originally reported, we have now entered a phase where we are no longer replacing retiring widebodies instead we are growing our widebody fleet. That growth is giving UA the ability to transition 4 77Es from international service to domestic service.
My hope is this UA saves and refurbishes the diamond seats currently on the GE 77Es. Then takes those seats and install them on the entire domestic high density 777s getting rid of IPTE completely. UA can fit 28 diamond seats between doors 1L/R and 2L/R. I then would like to see UA undo Smiseks biggest mistake on the high density fleet and reinstall PTV's on the 13 former internationally configured 77A models. UA could then restrict the remaining original 6 domestically configured 77As to West Cost -Hawaii and/or SFO/LAX-DEN/IAH/ORD routes only where the flight time is around 5 hours or less.
Getting ride of IPTE replacing it with completely refurbished diamond seats from the GE 77Es, and reinstalling PTV's on the 13 former international 77A models while leaving the PTV's on these 4 77Es would allow UA to once again have a competitive hard product to on our long haul Hawaii flights, and it would address a problem for passengers in coach on 77As on our EWR-SFO/LAX routes.


What if UA were to go with Polaris seats on the domestic 77A (for product consistency - yes it might be overkill on domestic hub-to-hubs but the 77As sometimes fly transatlantic as well as premium transcons and those flights have Polaris seats). How many could they fit in that same area versus 28 IPTE/Diamond seats?

Not very many at all.
 
codc10
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:24 pm

DolphinAir747 wrote:
jayunited wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
Can I ask at this point if UA, in retrospect, would have hoped their last 6 772A aircraft received in 2000 were really 772ER aircraft? It appears UA will convert 4 772ERs to domestic configuration soon.


I don't think UA has any regrets about purchasing 6 772As in 2000, those aircraft have served a their purpose which was to allow UA to reenter the ORD-HNL market launch ORD-OGG and back then provided much needed lift for our LAX-HNL and SFO-Hawaii flights. Fast forward to 2019 and it seems like UA may not be retiring as many 763s as they had originally reported, we have now entered a phase where we are no longer replacing retiring widebodies instead we are growing our widebody fleet. That growth is giving UA the ability to transition 4 77Es from international service to domestic service.
My hope is this UA saves and refurbishes the diamond seats currently on the GE 77Es. Then takes those seats and install them on the entire domestic high density 777s getting rid of IPTE completely. UA can fit 28 diamond seats between doors 1L/R and 2L/R. I then would like to see UA undo Smiseks biggest mistake on the high density fleet and reinstall PTV's on the 13 former internationally configured 77A models. UA could then restrict the remaining original 6 domestically configured 77As to West Cost -Hawaii and/or SFO/LAX-DEN/IAH/ORD routes only where the flight time is around 5 hours or less.
Getting ride of IPTE replacing it with completely refurbished diamond seats from the GE 77Es, and reinstalling PTV's on the 13 former international 77A models while leaving the PTV's on these 4 77Es would allow UA to once again have a competitive hard product to on our long haul Hawaii flights, and it would address a problem for passengers in coach on 77As on our EWR-SFO/LAX routes.


What if UA were to go with Polaris seats on the domestic 77A (for product consistency - yes it might be overkill on domestic hub-to-hubs but the 77As sometimes fly transatlantic as well as premium transcons and those flights have Polaris seats). How many could they fit in that same area versus 28 IPTE/Diamond seats?


The Polaris seat would max at 24 in A-zone on the 772, but the 28 IPTE J seats include a galley unit and 2 lavs forward of 2L/R. So, to go to Polaris on the 77G, UA would probably be losing at least a row, and likely more than 10, Y seats to match the number of lavs and cart stowage positions that are necessary for 300+ Y pax.

For Hawaii and domestic people-moving, I think the IPTE seat is perfectly adequate. The Y experience is unpleasant, and the entire product is not competitive for TATL.
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:01 pm

codc10 wrote:
The Polaris seat would max at 24 in A-zone on the 772, but the 28 IPTE J seats include a galley unit and 2 lavs forward of 2L/R. So, to go to Polaris on the 77G, UA would probably be losing at least a row, and likely more than 10, Y seats to match the number of lavs and cart stowage positions that are necessary for 300+ Y pax.

For Hawaii and domestic people-moving, I think the IPTE seat is perfectly adequate. The Y experience is unpleasant, and the entire product is not competitive for TATL.


I agree United does not need Polaris seats on the domestic fleet but the IPTE is not competitive at all especially on EWR-SFO/LAX or on ORD-HNL/OGG, IAH-HNL, or DEN-HNL/OGG, I don't think we need all access to the aisle seats but the diamond seats with their 2-2-2 arrangement is much more suitable and preferred over the IPTE seats at 2-4-2 (The only aircraft where passengers didn't seem to mind the IPTE layout was on the 763s. Passengers hated the layout on the 744s and 777s although it may be adequate in my opinion the time has come for UA to say good riddance to IPTE). Also you are right the Y experience is terrible and I understand the original 6 domestic 77Gs didn't have the wiring installed for PTVs and it probably would cost UA a lot to wire up those frames. But I think still think UA can undo that mistake on the 13 former international 77A frames while leaving PTVs on the 4 77Es that will be converted to high density domestic configuration. These simple changes diamond over IPTE and PTV's could make the HD 777s more tolerable for our passengers on EWR-SFO/LAX and on our long haul Hawaii flights.

Hopefully this will be the last year these high density 77Gs make an appearance on a TATL route.
 
codc10
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:06 pm

jayunited wrote:
I understand the original 6 domestic 77Gs didn't have the wiring installed for PTVs and it probably would cost UA a lot to wire up those frames. But I think still think UA can undo that mistake on the 13 former international 77A frames while leaving PTVs on the 4 77Es that will be converted to high density domestic configuration. These simple changes diamond over IPTE and PTV's could make the HD 777s more tolerable for our passengers on EWR-SFO/LAX and on our long haul Hawaii flights.


The new generation of lightweight embedded IFE streams content to tablets installed in seatbacks and requires wiring only for power distribution, which is already in place on the early-build 77G. If United adds PTVs, it will be this kind, which weigh a fraction of what earlier-gen hardwired systems did, especially in the late 90s/early 2000s. I believe the Y seats are already compatible with such an installation.
 
COEWR787
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:11 pm

I agree that it is time to get rid of the IPTE seats. I hated them with passion and actually changed airline to avoid them when they showed up on my flight.
 
FSDan
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:02 pm

jayunited wrote:
Hopefully this will be the last year these high density 77Gs make an appearance on a TATL route.


Agreed. Hopefully with a few more 78Js arriving EWR-MAD can become a 78J route (at least in the summer). Or, if that's too premium for the market, perhaps EWR-MAD can move to the 764 and IAD-MAD can be upgauged from a 757 to a 767 to avoid losing capacity in the MAD market.
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cosyr
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:09 pm

COEWR787 wrote:
I agree that it is time to get rid of the IPTE seats. I hated them with passion and actually changed airline to avoid them when they showed up on my flight.

I agree. Stepping over someone to get from a window is fine for a domestic flight, but middle seats for J fares need to go extinct. That is a relic of the 80's/90's and is unacceptable in today's competitive landscape. UA is the only airline in the US that has J middle seats (I believe I'm correct in saying that they are gone from AA's 777's, but if I'm wrong, they will be soon.)
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:36 pm

codc10 wrote:
The new generation of lightweight embedded IFE streams content to tablets installed in seatbacks and requires wiring only for power distribution, which is already in place on the early-build 77G. If United adds PTVs, it will be this kind, which weigh a fraction of what earlier-gen hardwired systems did, especially in the late 90s/early 2000s. I believe the Y seats are already compatible with such an installation.


Thank you for your response hopefully someone with some authority at UA is listening and will get it right the next time around on these HD 77Gs.
 
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intotheair
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:00 pm

jayunited wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
Can I ask at this point if UA, in retrospect, would have hoped their last 6 772A aircraft received in 2000 were really 772ER aircraft? It appears UA will convert 4 772ERs to domestic configuration soon.


I don't think UA has any regrets about purchasing 6 772As in 2000, those aircraft have served a their purpose which was to allow UA to reenter the ORD-HNL market launch ORD-OGG and back then provided much needed lift for our LAX-HNL and SFO-Hawaii flights.


Also remember that PMUA had more 777s than that originally. 3 77As and 5 77Es were sold/repossessed during bankruptcy during the mid 2000s. I believe there were also some undelivered orders for more 747s, 777s, 763s, and A320s on the books before UA went Ch 11.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
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adamblang
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:24 am

If built-in screens get added to seats (I hope they don't) I hope there's still a mechanism to hold my device on the seat in front of me. Exactly 0% of the time do I have any interest in watching the media that's loaded on the airplane – I'll watch what I downloaded to my devices in advance, thank you very much. I really like the seatback latches to make that watch-what-I-brought experience pleasant.
146 319 320 321 332 333 343 717 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 763 764 772 773 789 AR1 AT4 CNA CR2 CR7 DC9 ER3 ERD ER4 E70 E75 E90
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:41 am

Looking at GE 772 Diamond seats, and the ITPE PW 772 layout, I think its possible to get 30 Diamond seats between Door 1 and Door 2. The PW units have 3 closets that would be removed and the galley in Front of 2R could be halved in size for 2 equal smaller galleys on either side. That would allow 5 rows of 6 across. Y would lose seats however.

The way I see it, to standardize the 772A and the soon to be converted 772E, UA would have to move lavs on either 19 772A units or 4 772ER
1.) On 772A: Take a row out of Y to place lavs behind Door 2 BF 30, Y -10 (might have to downgrade a row or 2 or E+ to Y)
2.) On 772ER: Move lavs in front of Door 2 and lose maybe 4 Diamond seats. BF 24 to 30, Y NC from high density config.

I think the best option is #2 and see if UA can get 5 rows of Diamond seats in front of a lav in front of Door 2 and slim up mid lav. Save a ton of money not moving 38 laves from behind to in front of Door 2.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:40 am

319: Fleet additions
N871UA, former CS B6018 entered XMN 2713/14Aug, Induction or storage
N876UA, former CS B6040 entered XMN 2713/21Jun, Induction or storage
N877UA, former CS B6041 entered XMN 2713/11Jul, Induction or storage
 
VC10er
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:43 am

jayunited wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
Can I ask at this point if UA, in retrospect, would have hoped their last 6 772A aircraft received in 2000 were really 772ER aircraft? It appears UA will convert 4 772ERs to domestic configuration soon.


I don't think UA has any regrets about purchasing 6 772As in 2000, those aircraft have served a their purpose which was to allow UA to reenter the ORD-HNL market launch ORD-OGG and back then provided much needed lift for our LAX-HNL and SFO-Hawaii flights. Fast forward to 2019 and it seems like UA may not be retiring as many 763s as they had originally reported, we have now entered a phase where we are no longer replacing retiring widebodies instead we are growing our widebody fleet. That growth is giving UA the ability to transition 4 77Es from international service to domestic service.
My hope is this UA saves and refurbishes the diamond seats currently on the GE 77Es. Then takes those seats and install them on the entire domestic high density 777s getting rid of IPTE completely. UA can fit 28 diamond seats between doors 1L/R and 2L/R. I then would like to see UA undo Smiseks biggest mistake on the high density fleet and reinstall PTV's on the 13 former internationally configured 77A models. UA could then restrict the remaining original 6 domestically configured 77As to West Cost -Hawaii and/or SFO/LAX-DEN/IAH/ORD routes only where the flight time is around 5 hours or less.
Getting ride of IPTE replacing it with completely refurbished diamond seats from the GE 77Es, and reinstalling PTV's on the 13 former international 77A models while leaving the PTV's on these 4 77Es would allow UA to once again have a competitive hard product to on our long haul Hawaii flights, and it would address a problem for passengers in coach on 77As on our EWR-SFO/LAX routes.


Hi Jayunited,
As a hardcore UA passenger who is often (if not aways) will be in a lie flat seat whenever possible, I couldn’t agree more with replacing the ITPE (by that I presume you are referring to the very original back/fwd lie flats) on the High Density 772’s, with refurbished Diamond BF seats. The old ITPE are simply unacceptable in this day and age as there is most likely a far better experience elsewhere. The competitive hard products and interiors from other airlines, are just going to improve and expand: JetBlue in Mint or AA’s 3 class transcontinental for example.
So, it’s a no brainer to use Diamond seats as they come off newly refurbished Polaris aircraft. In fact, once the 787’s go under the knife for their refurbishments, those are even newer Diamond seats and probably far less scuffed up.
I don’t think the Diamond seat is as sexy as some others, but are still a great product except for the climb over.

But there are still going to 2 glaring things that (in my personal and professional opinion) that need to be addressed. Both the HD 772’s (even with refurbished Diamond seats) and all the 752’s is that they look glaringly old, “yesterday United” without the “new interior design” that UA FF’s are seeing more and more of. Be it a new Polaris WB, or refurbished narrow body; which, although installed on either an old 767, or a used Airbus, look fantastic and create a far better atmosphere onboard.

Basically, the contrasting atmospheres between flying out on a refurbished 767, or new 78-10, or A319/20, then back in an old interior is tantamount to feeling you bought 2 one way tickets on 2 different airlines (one airline out, another airline back) - so if a passenger is NOT like me, and hops from airline to airline and isn’t living in a “UA only” bubble, they are experiencing some really nice aircraft. The “yesterday UA” interiors are very palpably uninspiring and worn out looking. Yet, when “they” fly on a “Today & Future UA” aircraft, “they” tend to be extremely impressed. I hear it all the time.

Basically: while refurbishing a fleet the size of UA, indeed there will be a few years of inconsistency, but as UA nears competition, I think it’s a mistake to have a dozens of old birds in the “just leave them ‘as is’ till they die” look and condition BECAUSE those untouched birds will still be flying many hundreds of thousands of passengers in the years ahead, leaving those hundreds of thousands of “less than good” brand impressions, foiling (in part) all the brand building efforts being made at great cost. I’m assuming it will still be many years until they are all finally replaced.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:52 pm

VC10er wrote:
Basically: while refurbishing a fleet the size of UA, indeed there will be a few years of inconsistency, but as UA nears competition, I think it’s a mistake to have a dozens of old birds in the “just leave them ‘as is’ till they die” look and condition BECAUSE those untouched birds will still be flying many hundreds of thousands of passengers in the years ahead, leaving those hundreds of thousands of “less than good” brand impressions, foiling (in part) all the brand building efforts being made at great cost. I’m assuming it will still be many years until they are all finally replaced.


I get what you are saying but the truth is domestic aircraft do not need Polaris. Look at some of the worlds top carriers like SQ, NH, and others they have their long haul international product and they have their short haul product. In my opinion this is what UA should do Polaris should be reserved for international aircraft only, and our domestic widebodies should be configured differently. Its doesn't have to be refurbished diamond seats (I'm suggesting that because it would save money) UA could come up with a different all new lie flat seat but I firmly believe Polaris shouldn't be on domestic aircraft. Polaris is a international product and should remain as such.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:02 pm

763:
N667UA sked to enter HKG 2760/15Aug for High J Polaris/PP

Mid September until next units exit from HKG/XMN with Polaris. 2 763 and 3 772 in mod. There should be more units entering about Labor Day with traditional pulldown of peak services.

For what its worth, with N78004 and N78005, there should be 400 Diamond seats in HKG that could retrofit 13 domestic units with Diamond seats.
 
N649DL
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:34 pm

DolphinAir747 wrote:
jayunited wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
Can I ask at this point if UA, in retrospect, would have hoped their last 6 772A aircraft received in 2000 were really 772ER aircraft? It appears UA will convert 4 772ERs to domestic configuration soon.


I don't think UA has any regrets about purchasing 6 772As in 2000, those aircraft have served a their purpose which was to allow UA to reenter the ORD-HNL market launch ORD-OGG and back then provided much needed lift for our LAX-HNL and SFO-Hawaii flights. Fast forward to 2019 and it seems like UA may not be retiring as many 763s as they had originally reported, we have now entered a phase where we are no longer replacing retiring widebodies instead we are growing our widebody fleet. That growth is giving UA the ability to transition 4 77Es from international service to domestic service.
My hope is this UA saves and refurbishes the diamond seats currently on the GE 77Es. Then takes those seats and install them on the entire domestic high density 777s getting rid of IPTE completely. UA can fit 28 diamond seats between doors 1L/R and 2L/R. I then would like to see UA undo Smiseks biggest mistake on the high density fleet and reinstall PTV's on the 13 former internationally configured 77A models. UA could then restrict the remaining original 6 domestically configured 77As to West Cost -Hawaii and/or SFO/LAX-DEN/IAH/ORD routes only where the flight time is around 5 hours or less.
/Diamond seats?


Back then, some sUA 763 were also used for high density domestic flights (EG: the 1998-2000 deliveries) that are now in an International Configuration as well. I recall thinking how odd it was back in the day that UA had 777 with overhead CRT monitors but now I look at (what you just said) and ripping out the AVOD in Y for the new 77E configuration which was a mistake. Especially because they're used on EWR-Europe during peak season as well. The IPTE seats I think are more popular than you'd think compared to what you get in Economy on those poor birds haha.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:58 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
319: Fleet additions
N871UA, former CS B6018 entered XMN 2713/14Aug, Induction or storage
N876UA, former CS B6040 entered XMN 2713/21Jun, Induction or storage
N877UA, former CS B6041 entered XMN 2713/11Jul, Induction or storage


Why would these be going into storage?
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
wn676
Posts: 1697
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:22 pm

VC10er wrote:
jayunited wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
Can I ask at this point if UA, in retrospect, would have hoped their last 6 772A aircraft received in 2000 were really 772ER aircraft? It appears UA will convert 4 772ERs to domestic configuration soon.


I don't think UA has any regrets about purchasing 6 772As in 2000, those aircraft have served a their purpose which was to allow UA to reenter the ORD-HNL market launch ORD-OGG and back then provided much needed lift for our LAX-HNL and SFO-Hawaii flights. Fast forward to 2019 and it seems like UA may not be retiring as many 763s as they had originally reported, we have now entered a phase where we are no longer replacing retiring widebodies instead we are growing our widebody fleet. That growth is giving UA the ability to transition 4 77Es from international service to domestic service.
My hope is this UA saves and refurbishes the diamond seats currently on the GE 77Es. Then takes those seats and install them on the entire domestic high density 777s getting rid of IPTE completely. UA can fit 28 diamond seats between doors 1L/R and 2L/R. I then would like to see UA undo Smiseks biggest mistake on the high density fleet and reinstall PTV's on the 13 former internationally configured 77A models. UA could then restrict the remaining original 6 domestically configured 77As to West Cost -Hawaii and/or SFO/LAX-DEN/IAH/ORD routes only where the flight time is around 5 hours or less.
Getting ride of IPTE replacing it with completely refurbished diamond seats from the GE 77Es, and reinstalling PTV's on the 13 former international 77A models while leaving the PTV's on these 4 77Es would allow UA to once again have a competitive hard product to on our long haul Hawaii flights, and it would address a problem for passengers in coach on 77As on our EWR-SFO/LAX routes.


Hi Jayunited,
As a hardcore UA passenger who is often (if not aways) will be in a lie flat seat whenever possible, I couldn’t agree more with replacing the ITPE (by that I presume you are referring to the very original back/fwd lie flats) on the High Density 772’s, with refurbished Diamond BF seats. The old ITPE are simply unacceptable in this day and age as there is most likely a far better experience elsewhere. The competitive hard products and interiors from other airlines, are just going to improve and expand: JetBlue in Mint or AA’s 3 class transcontinental for example.
So, it’s a no brainer to use Diamond seats as they come off newly refurbished Polaris aircraft. In fact, once the 787’s go under the knife for their refurbishments, those are even newer Diamond seats and probably far less scuffed up.
I don’t think the Diamond seat is as sexy as some others, but are still a great product except for the climb over.

But there are still going to 2 glaring things that (in my personal and professional opinion) that need to be addressed. Both the HD 772’s (even with refurbished Diamond seats) and all the 752’s is that they look glaringly old, “yesterday United” without the “new interior design” that UA FF’s are seeing more and more of. Be it a new Polaris WB, or refurbished narrow body; which, although installed on either an old 767, or a used Airbus, look fantastic and create a far better atmosphere onboard.

Basically, the contrasting atmospheres between flying out on a refurbished 767, or new 78-10, or A319/20, then back in an old interior is tantamount to feeling you bought 2 one way tickets on 2 different airlines (one airline out, another airline back) - so if a passenger is NOT like me, and hops from airline to airline and isn’t living in a “UA only” bubble, they are experiencing some really nice aircraft. The “yesterday UA” interiors are very palpably uninspiring and worn out looking. Yet, when “they” fly on a “Today & Future UA” aircraft, “they” tend to be extremely impressed. I hear it all the time.

Basically: while refurbishing a fleet the size of UA, indeed there will be a few years of inconsistency, but as UA nears competition, I think it’s a mistake to have a dozens of old birds in the “just leave them ‘as is’ till they die” look and condition BECAUSE those untouched birds will still be flying many hundreds of thousands of passengers in the years ahead, leaving those hundreds of thousands of “less than good” brand impressions, foiling (in part) all the brand building efforts being made at great cost. I’m assuming it will still be many years until they are all finally replaced.


I really don’t buy the reasoning in putting the Diamond seats into the HD 772s. If they continue to operate the longer segments, it just creates another problem with consistency, not having direct-aisle access on some flights while offering it on others. In addition to the cost to reconfigure with an older product that will also likely drop overall seat count in the process, it just seems like a losing proposition.

I think they have an opportunity to do something completely different with the HD B772s. Right now they seem stuck in the middle of trying to fulfill two vastly different missions. EWR-MAD is a given, but even ORD/IAH-Hawaii (look at AAs offering from DFW/ORD) should be replaced by aircraft in an international configuration.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
User avatar
cosyr
Posts: 1371
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:23 pm

Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:44 pm

wn676 wrote:
VC10er wrote:
jayunited wrote:

I don't think UA has any regrets about purchasing 6 772As in 2000, those aircraft have served a their purpose which was to allow UA to reenter the ORD-HNL market launch ORD-OGG and back then provided much needed lift for our LAX-HNL and SFO-Hawaii flights. Fast forward to 2019 and it seems like UA may not be retiring as many 763s as they had originally reported, we have now entered a phase where we are no longer replacing retiring widebodies instead we are growing our widebody fleet. That growth is giving UA the ability to transition 4 77Es from international service to domestic service.
My hope is this UA saves and refurbishes the diamond seats currently on the GE 77Es. Then takes those seats and install them on the entire domestic high density 777s getting rid of IPTE completely. UA can fit 28 diamond seats between doors 1L/R and 2L/R. I then would like to see UA undo Smiseks biggest mistake on the high density fleet and reinstall PTV's on the 13 former internationally configured 77A models. UA could then restrict the remaining original 6 domestically configured 77As to West Cost -Hawaii and/or SFO/LAX-DEN/IAH/ORD routes only where the flight time is around 5 hours or less.
Getting ride of IPTE replacing it with completely refurbished diamond seats from the GE 77Es, and reinstalling PTV's on the 13 former international 77A models while leaving the PTV's on these 4 77Es would allow UA to once again have a competitive hard product to on our long haul Hawaii flights, and it would address a problem for passengers in coach on 77As on our EWR-SFO/LAX routes.


Hi Jayunited,
As a hardcore UA passenger who is often (if not aways) will be in a lie flat seat whenever possible, I couldn’t agree more with replacing the ITPE (by that I presume you are referring to the very original back/fwd lie flats) on the High Density 772’s, with refurbished Diamond BF seats. The old ITPE are simply unacceptable in this day and age as there is most likely a far better experience elsewhere. The competitive hard products and interiors from other airlines, are just going to improve and expand: JetBlue in Mint or AA’s 3 class transcontinental for example.
So, it’s a no brainer to use Diamond seats as they come off newly refurbished Polaris aircraft. In fact, once the 787’s go under the knife for their refurbishments, those are even newer Diamond seats and probably far less scuffed up.
I don’t think the Diamond seat is as sexy as some others, but are still a great product except for the climb over.

But there are still going to 2 glaring things that (in my personal and professional opinion) that need to be addressed. Both the HD 772’s (even with refurbished Diamond seats) and all the 752’s is that they look glaringly old, “yesterday United” without the “new interior design” that UA FF’s are seeing more and more of. Be it a new Polaris WB, or refurbished narrow body; which, although installed on either an old 767, or a used Airbus, look fantastic and create a far better atmosphere onboard.

Basically, the contrasting atmospheres between flying out on a refurbished 767, or new 78-10, or A319/20, then back in an old interior is tantamount to feeling you bought 2 one way tickets on 2 different airlines (one airline out, another airline back) - so if a passenger is NOT like me, and hops from airline to airline and isn’t living in a “UA only” bubble, they are experiencing some really nice aircraft. The “yesterday UA” interiors are very palpably uninspiring and worn out looking. Yet, when “they” fly on a “Today & Future UA” aircraft, “they” tend to be extremely impressed. I hear it all the time.

Basically: while refurbishing a fleet the size of UA, indeed there will be a few years of inconsistency, but as UA nears competition, I think it’s a mistake to have a dozens of old birds in the “just leave them ‘as is’ till they die” look and condition BECAUSE those untouched birds will still be flying many hundreds of thousands of passengers in the years ahead, leaving those hundreds of thousands of “less than good” brand impressions, foiling (in part) all the brand building efforts being made at great cost. I’m assuming it will still be many years until they are all finally replaced.


I really don’t buy the reasoning in putting the Diamond seats into the HD 772s. If they continue to operate the longer segments, it just creates another problem with consistency, not having direct-aisle access on some flights while offering it on others. In addition to the cost to reconfigure with an older product that will also likely drop overall seat count in the process, it just seems like a losing proposition.

I think they have an opportunity to go the opposite way than you suggest with the HD B772s and make them truly high-density, short-haul aircraft. Right now they seem stuck in the middle of trying to fulfill two vastly different missions. EWR-MAD is a given, but even ORD/IAH-Hawaii (look at AAs offering from DFW/ORD) should be replaced by aircraft in an international configuration.

I think UA's reasoning for putting in the IPTE seats on HI/Dom 777's was those seats were available because they were the most crucial to get off of international routes (a strong argument for why they should now shift to getting them off of HI/Dom 777's) and Diamond seats were going to stay on 77E's for a while longer, so they were not available, without buying new seats. The logic we have here, is that even though Diamond seats not Polaris/All Aisle Access, they are in between the best and the worst, so it's at least better. Also, those seats are finally coming off of 77E's, so they would be available without new purchases. If these planes are going to be in services for just a couple more years, fine, don't update them, but if they will be around 4 or more years, I think the cost of reconfiguring would be justified to have a more competitive product, that doesn't detract so much from the {current} UA brand.

Also, for markets like HI, all aisle access may not be as important, because people are more likely to fly with a companion to a vacation destination. But the simple fact that UA is installing Polaris is making IPTE worse, because it is further from the best product available. IPTE was seen as preferable to the lounge chairs (though I would prefer the recliners, they were so comfortable), but when Diamond seats came in from CO, they were preferrable, because they didn't have middle seats, and were all forward facing. Now Polaris makes the Diamond seats less desirable, and IPTE not worth my money at all. It's all relative. Obviously, UA is not going to put Polaris on HI/Dom, so if they just want lie flat, Diamond achieves that and improves the experience. If the argument is, the flights are too short to matter, get rid of IPTE and put in the 36 domestic F seats they originally had, and treat it as a different product. Then customers won't compare it to Polaris, because they will see it as domestic.
 
xxcr
Posts: 360
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:37 pm

Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:28 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
319: Fleet additions
N871UA, former CS B6018 entered XMN 2713/14Aug, Induction or storage
N876UA, former CS B6040 entered XMN 2713/21Jun, Induction or storage
N877UA, former CS B6041 entered XMN 2713/11Jul, Induction or storage


Why would these be going into storage?


I think for paperwork purposes. They did the same with the ex-HA birds.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2272
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:48 pm

wn676 wrote:

I really don’t buy the reasoning in putting the Diamond seats into the HD 772s. If they continue to operate the longer segments, it just creates another problem with consistency, not having direct-aisle access on some flights while offering it on others. In addition to the cost to reconfigure with an older product that will also likely drop overall seat count in the process, it just seems like a losing proposition.

I think they have an opportunity to do something completely different with the HD B772s. Right now they seem stuck in the middle of trying to fulfill two vastly different missions. EWR-MAD is a given, but even ORD/IAH-Hawaii (look at AAs offering from DFW/ORD) should be replaced by aircraft in an international configuration.


You can't compare AA to UA they have two completely different networks.

AA only flies widebodies to Hawaii year around from DFW. UA's has year around widebody 77G service to Hawaii from GUM, ORD, IAH, DEN, LAX and SFO. United isn't going to run internationally configured widebodies on all these Hawaiian medium and long haul routes.

Also for now the former P.S. 752s and the RR 752s will retain their diamond seats and looking forward to the 737-10 although UA is exploring and has several mock cabin designs at Willis, a Polaris type seat will not be on the 737-10. If I had to guess I would say the lie flat seat coming to the 737-10 will probably be closer to some version of the diamond seat. So as far as product consistency goes removing IPTE and replacing it it refurbished or some other version of the diamond seats goes a long way towards product consistency. Getting rid of IPTE reduces UA from 3 lie flat configurations to just 2 which again is what people find on other airlines like SQ and NH.

UA has a history of domestically configured widebody aircraft, those higher density aircraft have always been used on hub to hub and Hawaii routes and UA's HD 77G are not stuck in the middle or fulfill two vastly different missions. Their mission is quite clear to provide the necessary lift on the routes they fly some of those routes happen to be international routes, but that should change next year are more 78Js are delivered. The HD 77Gs have 364 seats onboard if you look at UA's GE 77Es there are actually 26 diamond seats between door 1L/R and 2L/R a closet and a LAV. Without the closet and LAV, (see the seat map for the G.E. 77E) there is room for 30 seats. Removing the ITPE seats at 2-4-2 and replacing them with diamond seats at 2-2-2 doesn't cost any seats in coach, doest require removal of the galleys at 2L/R and it doesn't require removal of the LAV because the PWs don't have a LAV in same location as on the GE 77Es.
 
wn676
Posts: 1697
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:32 pm

cosyr wrote:
wn676 wrote:
VC10er wrote:

Hi Jayunited,
As a hardcore UA passenger who is often (if not aways) will be in a lie flat seat whenever possible, I couldn’t agree more with replacing the ITPE (by that I presume you are referring to the very original back/fwd lie flats) on the High Density 772’s, with refurbished Diamond BF seats. The old ITPE are simply unacceptable in this day and age as there is most likely a far better experience elsewhere. The competitive hard products and interiors from other airlines, are just going to improve and expand: JetBlue in Mint or AA’s 3 class transcontinental for example.
So, it’s a no brainer to use Diamond seats as they come off newly refurbished Polaris aircraft. In fact, once the 787’s go under the knife for their refurbishments, those are even newer Diamond seats and probably far less scuffed up.
I don’t think the Diamond seat is as sexy as some others, but are still a great product except for the climb over.

But there are still going to 2 glaring things that (in my personal and professional opinion) that need to be addressed. Both the HD 772’s (even with refurbished Diamond seats) and all the 752’s is that they look glaringly old, “yesterday United” without the “new interior design” that UA FF’s are seeing more and more of. Be it a new Polaris WB, or refurbished narrow body; which, although installed on either an old 767, or a used Airbus, look fantastic and create a far better atmosphere onboard.

Basically, the contrasting atmospheres between flying out on a refurbished 767, or new 78-10, or A319/20, then back in an old interior is tantamount to feeling you bought 2 one way tickets on 2 different airlines (one airline out, another airline back) - so if a passenger is NOT like me, and hops from airline to airline and isn’t living in a “UA only” bubble, they are experiencing some really nice aircraft. The “yesterday UA” interiors are very palpably uninspiring and worn out looking. Yet, when “they” fly on a “Today & Future UA” aircraft, “they” tend to be extremely impressed. I hear it all the time.

Basically: while refurbishing a fleet the size of UA, indeed there will be a few years of inconsistency, but as UA nears competition, I think it’s a mistake to have a dozens of old birds in the “just leave them ‘as is’ till they die” look and condition BECAUSE those untouched birds will still be flying many hundreds of thousands of passengers in the years ahead, leaving those hundreds of thousands of “less than good” brand impressions, foiling (in part) all the brand building efforts being made at great cost. I’m assuming it will still be many years until they are all finally replaced.


I really don’t buy the reasoning in putting the Diamond seats into the HD 772s. If they continue to operate the longer segments, it just creates another problem with consistency, not having direct-aisle access on some flights while offering it on others. In addition to the cost to reconfigure with an older product that will also likely drop overall seat count in the process, it just seems like a losing proposition.

I think they have an opportunity to go the opposite way than you suggest with the HD B772s. Right now they seem stuck in the middle of trying to fulfill two vastly different missions. EWR-MAD is a given, but even ORD/IAH-Hawaii (look at AAs offering from DFW/ORD) should be replaced by aircraft in an international configuration.

I think UA's reasoning for putting in the IPTE seats on HI/Dom 777's was those seats were available because they were the most crucial to get off of international routes (a strong argument for why they should now shift to getting them off of HI/Dom 777's) and Diamond seats were going to stay on 77E's for a while longer, so they were not available, without buying new seats. The logic we have here, is that even though Diamond seats not Polaris/All Aisle Access, they are in between the best and the worst, so it's at least better. Also, those seats are finally coming off of 77E's, so they would be available without new purchases. If these planes are going to be in services for just a couple more years, fine, don't update them, but if they will be around 4 or more years, I think the cost of reconfiguring would be justified to have a more competitive product, that doesn't detract so much from the {current} UA brand.

Also, for markets like HI, all aisle access may not be as important, because people are more likely to fly with a companion to a vacation destination. But the simple fact that UA is installing Polaris is making IPTE worse, because it is further from the best product available. IPTE was seen as preferable to the lounge chairs (though I would prefer the recliners, they were so comfortable), but when Diamond seats came in from CO, they were preferrable, because they didn't have middle seats, and were all forward facing. Now Polaris makes the Diamond seats less desirable, and IPTE not worth my money at all. It's all relative. Obviously, UA is not going to put Polaris on HI/Dom, so if they just want lie flat, Diamond achieves that and improves the experience. If the argument is, the flights are too short to matter, get rid of IPTE and put in the 36 domestic F seats they originally had, and treat it as a different product. Then customers won't compare it to Polaris, because they will see it as domestic.


I think we all agree that it would be an improvement over IPTE - which definitely needs to go - but to me putting in the Diamond seats still just seems like a half-baked measure with only incremental benefit. That too still implies that these aircraft will continue to be deployed on 8+ hour flights with Y cabin that is not well-suited for that duration, and where I really think UA could look at swapping equipment to an existing Polaris-configured aircraft. Who knows...maybe with a better hard product, they could command a premium high enough to offset the lower density. On the hub-hub and West Coast-HI flights, I'm sure they could use as many seats as they can squeeze into the aircraft, which is not being realized currently with the use of lie-flats in F. That's the "too short to matter" argument where going back to the domestic F seats would make more sense. I think that helps streamline the premium product offering as well.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
notconcerned
Posts: 172
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:39 pm

Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:59 pm

wn676 wrote:
I think we all agree that it would be an improvement over IPTE - which definitely needs to go - but to me putting in the Diamond seats still just seems like a half-baked measure with only incremental benefit. That too still implies that these aircraft will continue to be deployed on 8+ hour flights with Y cabin that is not well-suited for that duration, and where I really think UA could look at swapping equipment to an existing Polaris-configured aircraft. Who knows...maybe with a better hard product, they could command a premium high enough to offset the lower density. On the hub-hub and West Coast-HI flights, I'm sure they could use as many seats as they can squeeze into the aircraft, which is not being realized currently with the use of lie-flats in F. That's the "too short to matter" argument where going back to the domestic F seats would make more sense. I think that helps streamline the premium product offering as well.


Of course a 777 regardless of what cabin product will imply it can do 8h+ flights. Just as how a 737MAX can be deployed on a TATL route. I think the issue is more of an aircraft-dedicated route issue than a product consistency issue. UA just has to keep all 77G to domestic flying then passengers know what they're going to get. Sure, it's still not ideal on ORD-HNL, but there's really no other alternative except for a seasonal AA flight.

It should be like AF who still has high-density 77W in various angle-flat configurations. But you only get that if you're flying to the Caribbean or overseas territories.
 
wn676
Posts: 1697
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:19 pm

jayunited wrote:
wn676 wrote:

I really don’t buy the reasoning in putting the Diamond seats into the HD 772s. If they continue to operate the longer segments, it just creates another problem with consistency, not having direct-aisle access on some flights while offering it on others. In addition to the cost to reconfigure with an older product that will also likely drop overall seat count in the process, it just seems like a losing proposition.

I think they have an opportunity to do something completely different with the HD B772s. Right now they seem stuck in the middle of trying to fulfill two vastly different missions. EWR-MAD is a given, but even ORD/IAH-Hawaii (look at AAs offering from DFW/ORD) should be replaced by aircraft in an international configuration.


You can't compare AA to UA they have two completely different networks.

AA only flies widebodies to Hawaii year around from DFW. UA's has year around widebody 77G service to Hawaii from GUM, ORD, IAH, DEN, LAX and SFO. United isn't going to run internationally configured widebodies on all these Hawaiian medium and long haul routes.

Also for now the former P.S. 752s and the RR 752s will retain their diamond seats and looking forward to the 737-10 although UA is exploring and has several mock cabin designs at Willis, a Polaris type seat will not be on the 737-10. If I had to guess I would say the lie flat seat coming to the 737-10 will probably be closer to some version of the diamond seat. So as far as product consistency goes removing IPTE and replacing it it refurbished or some other version of the diamond seats goes a long way towards product consistency. Getting rid of IPTE reduces UA from 3 lie flat configurations to just 2 which again is what people find on other airlines like SQ and NH.

UA has a history of domestically configured widebody aircraft, those higher density aircraft have always been used on hub to hub and Hawaii routes and UA's HD 77G are not stuck in the middle or fulfill two vastly different missions. Their mission is quite clear to provide the necessary lift on the routes they fly some of those routes happen to be international routes, but that should change next year are more 78Js are delivered. The HD 77Gs have 364 seats onboard if you look at UA's GE 77Es there are actually 26 diamond seats between door 1L/R and 2L/R a closet and a LAV. Without the closet and LAV, (see the seat map for the G.E. 77E) there is room for 30 seats. Removing the ITPE seats at 2-4-2 and replacing them with diamond seats at 2-2-2 doesn't cost any seats in coach, doest require removal of the galleys at 2L/R and it doesn't require removal of the LAV because the PWs don't have a LAV in same location as on the GE 77Es.


Point taken on the seat count, I was scrolling pretty fast upthread and thought there was a post in reference to lost seats in Y with reconfiguring with the Diamond seats, but actually that was with Polaris.

I get why UA went to the configuration that they did, but I think you helped answer some of what I'm getting at. There's a trend in these aircraft being replaced on long-haul missions. Does that change the equation on optimal seat configuration? It obviously works in some fashion for them currently, but if their missions are gradually being reduced in length, do they really need to keep 28 lie flats in J? My point is that they probably don't. The need to fulfill both high-density short-haul and long haul missions is likely creating an inefficiency somewhere, and is also certainly impacting customer experience in Y.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
wn676
Posts: 1697
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:34 pm

notconcerned wrote:
wn676 wrote:
I think we all agree that it would be an improvement over IPTE - which definitely needs to go - but to me putting in the Diamond seats still just seems like a half-baked measure with only incremental benefit. That too still implies that these aircraft will continue to be deployed on 8+ hour flights with Y cabin that is not well-suited for that duration, and where I really think UA could look at swapping equipment to an existing Polaris-configured aircraft. Who knows...maybe with a better hard product, they could command a premium high enough to offset the lower density. On the hub-hub and West Coast-HI flights, I'm sure they could use as many seats as they can squeeze into the aircraft, which is not being realized currently with the use of lie-flats in F. That's the "too short to matter" argument where going back to the domestic F seats would make more sense. I think that helps streamline the premium product offering as well.


Of course a 777 regardless of what cabin product will imply it can do 8h+ flights. Just as how a 737MAX can be deployed on a TATL route. I think the issue is more of an aircraft-dedicated route issue than a product consistency issue. UA just has to keep all 77G to domestic flying then passengers know what they're going to get. Sure, it's still not ideal on ORD-HNL, but there's really no other alternative except for a seasonal AA flight.

It should be like AF who still has high-density 77W in various angle-flat configurations. But you only get that if you're flying to the Caribbean or overseas territories.


That's exactly my point on the 77G; if they continue to keep a lie-flat product, in some way it's going to remain attractive to deploy it outside of the domestic network simply because it can. From a revenue perspective it's great that they can do it with 364 seats, but is that really the experience and consistency that UA is aiming for?

And yes, while it's definitely not ideal on segments like ORD-HNL/OGG they do enjoy virtually no non-stop competition for now. On HNL in particular though, how long do you think that advantage will last? Not to say that they present a huge threat at the moment, but AA is extending their seasonal flight next year.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
Scarebus34
Posts: 381
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:57 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
319: Fleet additions
N871UA, former CS B6018 entered XMN 2713/14Aug, Induction or storage
N876UA, former CS B6040 entered XMN 2713/21Jun, Induction or storage
N877UA, former CS B6041 entered XMN 2713/11Jul, Induction or storage


Why would these be going into storage?

The conversion of the used aircraft has been a painstakingly slow process.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2272
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:55 pm

wn676 wrote:
And yes, while it's definitely not ideal on segments like ORD-HNL/OGG they do enjoy virtually no non-stop competition for now. On HNL in particular though, how long do you think that advantage will last? Not to say that they present a huge threat at the moment, but AA is extending their seasonal flight next year.


I'll answer you question by saying this for this upcoming Christmas season AA has to run 2 788s on their seasonal ORD-HNL route. UA only needs 1 HD 77G.

Okay AA has the edge in terms of onboard hard product, but if these two carriers match each other in price guess who wins that battle UA because UA only needs one plane which significantly lowers our operating cost for the overall route while AA just to beat UA's 364 seat needs 2 788s. I don't know much about AA's network but I will say this it doesn't seem like AA has the right aircraft in the right configuration to mount a serious challenge to UA on a year around basis. UA's 364 seats HD 77Gs are an advantage and not just on our ORD-HNL route. The reason AA's ORD-HNL route is seasonal is because its not sustainable over the long run because AA doesn't have an aircraft with the right configuration to make the route work on a year around basis. If AA ever posed a serious threat to UA on the ORD-HNL route UA could simply throw a 78J on the route and would still have more capacity than AA if both ran a single nonstop flight year around.

Again I state it isn't fair do to a comparison contrast between these 2 carriers but you keep dragging AA into this and it is not a fair comparison. UA has 3 different frames 77G, 77W and 78J all with over 300 seats AA only has the 77W. Instead of comparing these 2 carriers judge UA's HD 77Gs on their own merit look at them and their place in UA's overall network only then will you understand why UA has this aircraft in this configuration.
 
kimimm19
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:34 pm

United's Fleet Questions

Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:28 am

Been looking at fleets for various airlines and stumbled across UA's on wikipedia.

There were a few things that I flagged to ask more informed people here:

1. Does UA still have 19 73Gs on order? If so, why are they still taking them, for an aircraft that is supposedly very inefficient vs the possible income during peak periods with more capacity aircraft?

2. UA is acquiring narrowbody airbuses secondhand from various operators. I seem to remember that their own airbus narrowbodies were very prone to technical issues a few years back. So why are they taking older planes like these?

3. It also states that 11 additional 787-10s are scheduled to be ordered and delivered from 2024 (though unconfirmed). Does anyone think there's any truth to this?

Thanks.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:33 am

After reading the above, maybe just adding Diamond seats to the 4 PW772ERs to be converted would be the easiest and leave the 77Gs untouched. The 77G could be pulled off ORD-Hawaii and operate hub-to hub and shorter Hawaiian flights.

The 4 ER units would have 30 Diamond seats, up to 10 fewer Y seats and PTV. A specific routing on ORD-HNL/OGG and maybe IAH-HNL, EWR-HNL or a couple West Coast-Hawaii flights could be designed and may include a day or two of no-ops or swaps to 77G to do routine maintenance.

In summer, maybe one unit could provide something TATL, but routing into such a flight would be problematic. Routes like EWR-MAD/BCN could be acceptable with Diamond seats and provide tons of Y seats.

This would be the easiest conversion and swaps between the two configurations would be at most 10 Y seats and a couple 2 BF seats. Its been mentioned above that some of the 77G fleet have the PTV wiring that could allow several more in this configuration and allow maintenance and/or scheduled swaps w/o issue.

While the negative would be a split fleet and the possibility of having long turns somewhere for maintenance. Almost all 77G flights can usually operate flights without seats being blocked, so swap wouldn't be a disaster. If some 772A were mixed in with 772ERs in same configuration, UA would just have to ensure a 772ER on some flights with heavy load and/or wind conditions.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: United's Fleet Questions

Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:54 am

1. With the last quarterly announcement, UA announced that they're acquiring 19 used 73Gs. All the new 737s on order are Max aircraft. At used prices, the 73Gs apparently make sense especially over a new fleet type.

2. UAL has spend a boatload of resources to improve the AIrbus' dispatch reliability and it's paid off. Plus, the used AIrbus' are often newer than the original-to-UA Airbus fleet.

3. Based on the age of the 763s and oldest 777s, I would expect UAL to take even more 787s than are currently on order. The 787-10s would be replacements for the oldest 772s.

ALL just my humble opinion, of course.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
wn676
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:36 am

jayunited wrote:
wn676 wrote:
And yes, while it's definitely not ideal on segments like ORD-HNL/OGG they do enjoy virtually no non-stop competition for now. On HNL in particular though, how long do you think that advantage will last? Not to say that they present a huge threat at the moment, but AA is extending their seasonal flight next year.


I'll answer you question by saying this for this upcoming Christmas season AA has to run 2 788s on their seasonal ORD-HNL route. UA only needs 1 HD 77G.

Okay AA has the edge in terms of onboard hard product, but if these two carriers match each other in price guess who wins that battle UA because UA only needs one plane which significantly lowers our operating cost for the overall route while AA just to beat UA's 364 seat needs 2 788s. I don't know much about AA's network but I will say this it doesn't seem like AA has the right aircraft in the right configuration to mount a serious challenge to UA on a year around basis. UA's 364 seats HD 77Gs are an advantage and not just on our ORD-HNL route. The reason AA's ORD-HNL route is seasonal is because its not sustainable over the long run because AA doesn't have an aircraft with the right configuration to make the route work on a year around basis. If AA ever posed a serious threat to UA on the ORD-HNL route UA could simply throw a 78J on the route and would still have more capacity than AA if both ran a single nonstop flight year around.

Again I state it isn't fair do to a comparison contrast between these 2 carriers but you keep dragging AA into this and it is not a fair comparison. UA has 3 different frames 77G, 77W and 78J all with over 300 seats AA only has the 77W. Instead of comparing these 2 carriers judge UA's HD 77Gs on their own merit look at them and their place in UA's overall network only then will you understand why UA has this aircraft in this configuration.


I brought up AA initially because they provide the only form of direct, nonstop competition (albeit seasonally) out of ORD. The second post was in response to someone else’s comment on AA. Let’s be fair, that hardly represents repeatedly dragging it into this conversation. I’m sure we could spend a few more posts diving into the different dynamics of each carriers hub and the roles they serve - not denying those major differences at all - but I don’t see that as the underpinnings of my whole crackpot theory; the comparison wasn’t meant to tie the whole thing together, and if it did come across like that...whoops.

What’s curious to me is that we both seem to be on the same page about a couple of key things, namely that in this particular market UA would be at a disadvantage with its hard product in the face of stronger competition, and that UA could always upgrade to a Polaris-equipped aircraft. Clearly UA is the dominant carrier to Hawaii out of ORD and IAH and enjoys all of the advantages of having a 364-seat aircraft those markets, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a better fit in their fleet for those routes either. It’s hard to say if the 77G really is hitting that sweet spot when, prior to the 78J arriving, their only other realistic choices were the 77E or the 764. At the risk of making another ill-conceived comparison, see EWR-DUB which went from the 77G to the 78J at the onset of S19.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on the current configuration of the 77G. I still think it could use further optimization in layout and redeployment to short- and mid-haul markets...

...and to bring this full-circle...

...that wouldn't involve a retrofit with the Diamond seats. Again, that’s not to say it doesn’t work decently enough where it is now, but maybe there’s room for a shifting of the strategy. And clearly from the posts on this thread there seems to be a consensus that it may be too dense for some the longer stage lengths it flies.

Admittedly though, I have no idea what would happen to HNL-GUM in this scenario.
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wn676
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:52 am

calpsafltskeds wrote:
After reading the above, maybe just adding Diamond seats to the 4 PW772ERs to be converted would be the easiest and leave the 77Gs untouched. The 77G could be pulled off ORD-Hawaii and operate hub-to hub and shorter Hawaiian flights.

The 4 ER units would have 30 Diamond seats, up to 10 fewer Y seats and PTV. A specific routing on ORD-HNL/OGG and maybe IAH-HNL, EWR-HNL or a couple West Coast-Hawaii flights could be designed and may include a day or two of no-ops or swaps to 77G to do routine maintenance.

In summer, maybe one unit could provide something TATL, but routing into such a flight would be problematic. Routes like EWR-MAD/BCN could be acceptable with Diamond seats and provide tons of Y seats.

This would be the easiest conversion and swaps between the two configurations would be at most 10 Y seats and a couple 2 BF seats. Its been mentioned above that some of the 77G fleet have the PTV wiring that could allow several more in this configuration and allow maintenance and/or scheduled swaps w/o issue.

While the negative would be a split fleet and the possibility of having long turns somewhere for maintenance. Almost all 77G flights can usually operate flights without seats being blocked, so swap wouldn't be a disaster. If some 772A were mixed in with 772ERs in same configuration, UA would just have to ensure a 772ER on some flights with heavy load and/or wind conditions.


The complexity of a small sub-fleet is a risk, but this is certainly one cheaper way (upfront at least) to work around the long-haul HD flying which is really just a handful of routes.

How badly does HNL-GUM struggle with weight restrictions?
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:56 pm

763:
N648UA entered MIA 2738/15Aug for maint.
N649UA exited MIA 2697/15Aug from maint
N661UA entered MCO 2718/15Aug for maint
N667UA now sked to enter HKG 2760/17Aug for High J Polaris/PP
 
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PacoMartin
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Replace 777-200s with A350s

Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:06 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
I would expect UAL to take even more 787s than are currently on order. The 787-10s would be replacements for the oldest 772s.


REFERENCE
(1) https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2017/09/new-agreement-with-united-airlines-increases-a350-xwb-order-to-4.htmlUnited Airlines has increased the number of A350 XWB aircraft it will bring into its fleet, updating and expanding its previously existing order for 35 A350-1000 to 45 A350-900 widebody aircraft to replace older, less efficient aircraft, supporting future growth at the airline.

(2) https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/united-to-replace-777-200s-with-a350s-440887/
06 SEPTEMBER, 2017 SOURCE: FLIGHT DASHBOARD
United Airlines plans to replace the majority of its Boeing 777-200ER fleet with Airbus A350-900s, says chief financial officer Andrew Levy.



I was under the impression that United intended to replace older 777-200s and 777-200ERs with A350s. Those references are less than 2 years old.
 
VC10er
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:22 pm

jayunited wrote:
VC10er wrote:
Basically: while refurbishing a fleet the size of UA, indeed there will be a few years of inconsistency, but as UA nears competition, I think it’s a mistake to have a dozens of old birds in the “just leave them ‘as is’ till they die” look and condition BECAUSE those untouched birds will still be flying many hundreds of thousands of passengers in the years ahead, leaving those hundreds of thousands of “less than good” brand impressions, foiling (in part) all the brand building efforts being made at great cost. I’m assuming it will still be many years until they are all finally replaced.


I get what you are saying but the truth is domestic aircraft do not need Polaris. Look at some of the worlds top carriers like SQ, NH, and others they have their long haul international product and they have their short haul product. In my opinion this is what UA should do Polaris should be reserved for international aircraft only, and our domestic widebodies should be configured differently. Its doesn't have to be refurbished diamond seats (I'm suggesting that because it would save money) UA could come up with a different all new lie flat seat but I firmly believe Polaris shouldn't be on domestic aircraft. Polaris is a international product and should remain as such.


Hi Jayunited,
I wasn’t saying that the international new Polaris seat should become the transcontinental and Hawaii First hard products. I think the Diamond seat is fine for domestic flights where there is a lie flat market and a darn good new regular F seat. (I just made one point about the fairly soon to be removed Diamond seats on the current 787-8/9’s and are newer and may not require that much refurb)
I think the true Polaris seat should ABSOLUTELY remain only on international WB aircraft only. (I don’t have a clue about what to do in the future IF there is a single aisle narrow body doing international routes like the 752 does today)

My point was ONLY that the interiors OVERALL, IN THEIR ENTIRETY after replacing ITPE on domestic with Diamond seats also needs to be updated. Don’t just stop with swapping for a better hard product seat.
Example: today a 737-8/9 interior doesn’t look or have nearly as modern, stylish and branded UNITED brand feel as the refurbished new (but used) A319/20. The 737-8 especially looks like “old, yesterday United” while the new interior design which pax will really start experiencing once 150 737MAX’s are flying along side the newly refurbished used Airbus A319/20s.
The HD 772s, and 752’s, for as long as the both will be flying filled with pax, will be far, far better with Diamond seats up front, but if EVERYTHING ELSE, the walls, bulkheads, carpeting, lavs, etc still won’t have that “new car look & smell” (despite their old age) like the old refurbished A319/20.

It’s abundantly clear that UA knows how to make an old bird feel factory new inside.

Today there a basically 2 interior designs that fall under the “new, today and into the future” look/design/style and atmosphere, both feel very branded and uniquely UNITED:
1: The international new Polaris/PE (77W, 763, now many 772ER, and 787-10)
2: The new domestic interior design that takes “some” inspiration from international Polaris, but not the whole Polaris enchilada. (As seen and “felt” on the newly refurbished used Airbuses.

For a domestic narrow body (or domestic WB) I strongly believe that there is a day sometime in the future when UNITED “can” have its International Polaris, and a domestic interior that really does do away with the “old, yesterday bland look”
I think (both personally and professionally) having a domestic mix of brand NEW, some half baked interiors or some left “as is” domestic interiors is not a good idea.

Lufthansa for Example, if you fly a WB to FRA, then connect to an A320 to wherever, the A320 doesn’t look exactly like First or Biz on the 748i or A340, A350 etc.
Lufty’s NBs have their own toned back but nice look, however there is a feeling of consistency from 787i to A320 that consciously or subconsciously imparts a consistent brand that is unmistakably Lufty, and feels tightly thought through and bolsters their efficient brand reputation.
When there is a hodgepodge spanning a fleet of brand new, half baked and just plain old (and potentially worn) aircraft it just undermines EVERYTHING. The UA BRAND points of look & touch will feel dissonant. Less tight, less impressive.

I personally believe UNITED has an opportunity right this moment, a window of opportunity, because so much is in flux, to really execute flawlessly- because if they think based on a “long term” ROI, they can achieve a consistent front to back, airport to airport NEW UNITED. Macro and Micro NEW UNITED BRAND experience and achieve powerful brand affinity.
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GmoneyCO
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:56 am

Weighing in on the discussion, I have a few thoughts:
    1 ---The refurbished Airbus aircraft and 757-300s generally look very sharp, especially the used Airbus aircraft picked up from China Southern. Most would never known those aircraft are approaching ~14 years old depending on the frame.
    2 --- The 787 Diamond seats will not fit properly in the 777 fleet. The 787 cabin width is 1ft 3in narrower than the 777. While the seat is smaller, I imagine many of the interior components are the same and the 787 seat parts could be used to refurbish the 777 Diamond seats from the GE powered 777s
    3 --- I understand the logic behind potentially covering 4 of the 772 ER birds into domestic aircraft but do no believe such a small sub fleet makes economical or operational sense in the grand scheme. A subfleet of 4 older aircraft will become a logistical challenge when IIROPs happen and limit the number of routes they can be used on. In my opinion, retrofitting them with Polaris and then fitting them into the ORD & EWR/HNL rotations which would allow them to be used for extra cargo lift to GUM on an as-needed basis would be preferable. Given UA's focus on the premium cabin, selling additional premium seats on what amounts to an international flight at a reasonable price should be doable and would be a differentiator.
    4 --- Re-configuring the 772HD aircraft is something I would like to see happen, however I don't think it will since there isn't a meaningful revenue or cost scenario for UA. The bulk of the aircraft are quickly approaching retirement age and another retrofit that will involve significant changes to galleys, closets, and lavs does not make sense.
 
VC10er
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:40 pm

I haven’t been on a UA 753 (potentially have never been on one, if I was, it was a very long time ago!)

I was googling around and found someone’s review (not anyone I ever heard of) of the newly configured 753, with pics. Apparently this reviewer is often on the UA 753. However the review was a bit old, it compared the newly refurbished 753 to the new 73MAX9 they had flown, (but no mention the grounding of all MAX’s) as well as comparing the refurbished 753 to the ex China A319 refurbishment. They were generally positive in their review, but did give UA some negatives for the new 753 interior. While the review was positive about UA’s new F seat, and even mildly positive about E+, they did go onto say that the half way refurb was indeed very noticeable.
No new entryway blue dotted branding panel, (which I too think should be part of the refurbishment of old birds) and basically only a “United First” placard on the forward bulkhead, but just plain wall paper otherwise and NOT the new “really nice modern, patterned” design as seen on the new (but used) Airbuses and MAX’s.
They also commented very negatively about the old lighting vs the MAX.

I can actually understand the lightning not being upgraded to the softer LED colored lighting because I would think that would be quite expensive. But that’s just a guess, I don’t know how much more time and money it would cost to install that along with new seats and carpeting. And I don’t know what it would take to replace the service panels, air nozzles and lights (overhead bins) - what I do know is that the current condition of the 752’s service panels: very old looking and finger treads on the air nozzles are black with dirt in every groove- it’s seriously gross. I’m not a germaphobe, but I won’t touch them!

But I do think that once inside refurbishing an old aircraft, United should spring for the entryway sign and new bulkhead design.

Last: we rarely ever discuss the 753 fleet. I know she plays an important role as a hub to hub people mover, but how old are they and how much life is left in those flying “bowling alleys?” And while we all wax on about the 767 & 752’s & HD 772’s, what would or could possibly take their place?
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77H
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:32 pm

VC10er wrote:
I haven’t been on a UA 753 (potentially have never been on one, if I was, it was a very long time ago!)

I was googling around and found someone’s review (not anyone I ever heard of) of the newly configured 753, with pics. Apparently this reviewer is often on the UA 753. However the review was a bit old, it compared the newly refurbished 753 to the new 73MAX9 they had flown, (but no mention the grounding of all MAX’s) as well as comparing the refurbished 753 to the ex China A319 refurbishment. They were generally positive in their review, but did give UA some negatives for the new 753 interior. While the review was positive about UA’s new F seat, and even mildly positive about E+, they did go onto say that the half way refurb was indeed very noticeable.
No new entryway blue dotted branding panel, (which I too think should be part of the refurbishment of old birds) and basically only a “United First” placard on the forward bulkhead, but just plain wall paper otherwise and NOT the new “really nice modern, patterned” design as seen on the new (but used) Airbuses and MAX’s.
They also commented very negatively about the old lighting vs the MAX.

I can actually understand the lightning not being upgraded to the softer LED colored lighting because I would think that would be quite expensive. But that’s just a guess, I don’t know how much more time and money it would cost to install that along with new seats and carpeting. And I don’t know what it would take to replace the service panels, air nozzles and lights (overhead bins) - what I do know is that the current condition of the 752’s service panels: very old looking and finger treads on the air nozzles are black with dirt in every groove- it’s seriously gross. I’m not a germaphobe, but I won’t touch them!

But I do think that once inside refurbishing an old aircraft, United should spring for the entryway sign and new bulkhead design.

Last: we rarely ever discuss the 753 fleet. I know she plays an important role as a hub to hub people mover, but how old are they and how much life is left in those flying “bowling alleys?” And while we all wax on about the 767 & 752’s & HD 772’s, what would or could possibly take their place?


I can confirm the UA 753 refurb was half assed (pardon my French). While the carpets, and seats are new, everything else is from the initial interior. There are two different sidewall designs in the 753, the original CO design, and a different one for the ATA planes. The overhead bins are a yellowish white at this point and the passenger service panels are all original. But the worst thing about the 753s has to be the lighting. The fluorescent light tubes are often miss matching colors and give the plane a very dreary look overall.

I really think UA should have done floor to ceiling cabin refurbs of their entire fleet rather than springing for a new livery. Passengers generally see the exterior of their plane for 30-45 minutes prior to departure and most are likely not paying attention to the exterior. Passengers spend their time in the aircraft cabin, for hours at a time in many cases. To me, this should have been a priority.

As the new livery starts propagating imagine the disappointment many passengers will have when they realize the shiny new exterior gives way to aircraft cabins that look little better than greyhound buses.

77H
 
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:49 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
319: Fleet additions
N871UA, former CS B6018 entered XMN 2713/14Aug, Induction or storage
N876UA, former CS B6040 entered XMN 2713/21Jun, Induction or storage
N877UA, former CS B6041 entered XMN 2713/11Jul, Induction or storage


4871 has started it's storage package.
4876 has started it's China Southern Conversion
4877 has started it's China Southern Conversion
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:33 pm

GmoneyCO wrote:
    2 --- The 787 Diamond seats will not fit properly in the 777 fleet. The 787 cabin width is 1ft 3in narrower than the 777. While the seat is smaller, I imagine many of the interior components are the same and the 787 seat parts could be used to refurbish the 777 Diamond seats from the GE powered 777s


A bit out there, but I wonder since the 777 Diamond seats are are 1.5 inches narrower, do they take up the same space front to back as on the 772? The 763 Diamond seats are out there as well, plenty of window pairs available.

Without an expensive FAA recertification, could the 777 or 763 Diamond seats be retooled slightly to increase angle to make them shorter overall? If so, maybe 28 would fit into the 77G without reconfiguring anything else?

Assuming the 4 PW 772ERs will have the same configuration as the 77G, that requires lav movement to the front of Door 2 or a row of Y will be eliminated. I would guess UA will bite that bullet to match 77G and 772ER interior configurations.
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:38 pm

GmoneyCO wrote:
Weighing in on the discussion, I have a few thoughts:

    3 --- I understand the logic behind potentially covering 4 of the 772 ER birds into domestic aircraft but do no believe such a small sub fleet makes economical or operational sense in the grand scheme. A subfleet of 4 older aircraft will become a logistical challenge when IIROPs happen and limit the number of routes they can be used on. In my opinion, retrofitting them with Polaris and then fitting them into the ORD & EWR/HNL rotations which would allow them to be used for extra cargo lift to GUM on an as-needed basis would be preferable. Given UA's focus on the premium cabin, selling additional premium seats on what amounts to an international flight at a reasonable price should be doable and would be a differentiator.


What if these 4 aircraft are just the first of the 77Es to be relegated to domestic service?
You said have this for makes no sense in the grand scheme but lets look at history. When I started at UA our DC-10s/30s were the primary domestic widebody aircraft. Those DC-10s were then replaced by 763s, and those 763s where then joined by six 77As. UA after the merger reconfigured the 763s for international service and replaced them with the remaining 77As in the fleet. As you correctly pointed out the 23XX and 24XX series 77As are old and should be coming up on their retirement soon. A359 deliveries start in late 2022 so we are a little more than 3 years away from their arrival. Is it then possible that this soon to be small subfleet of HD 77Es is just the beginning of what might become a much larger fleet of HD 77Es replacing the HD 23XX and 24XX series 77As? I'm asking because judging from our history since I started working for UA I don't see UA getting rid of HD domestic widebodies they are such an integral part of our domestic operation.
 
gwrudolph
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:40 pm

77H wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I haven’t been on a UA 753 (potentially have never been on one, if I was, it was a very long time ago!)

I was googling around and found someone’s review (not anyone I ever heard of) of the newly configured 753, with pics. Apparently this reviewer is often on the UA 753. However the review was a bit old, it compared the newly refurbished 753 to the new 73MAX9 they had flown, (but no mention the grounding of all MAX’s) as well as comparing the refurbished 753 to the ex China A319 refurbishment. They were generally positive in their review, but did give UA some negatives for the new 753 interior. While the review was positive about UA’s new F seat, and even mildly positive about E+, they did go onto say that the half way refurb was indeed very noticeable.
No new entryway blue dotted branding panel, (which I too think should be part of the refurbishment of old birds) and basically only a “United First” placard on the forward bulkhead, but just plain wall paper otherwise and NOT the new “really nice modern, patterned” design as seen on the new (but used) Airbuses and MAX’s.
They also commented very negatively about the old lighting vs the MAX.

I can actually understand the lightning not being upgraded to the softer LED colored lighting because I would think that would be quite expensive. But that’s just a guess, I don’t know how much more time and money it would cost to install that along with new seats and carpeting. And I don’t know what it would take to replace the service panels, air nozzles and lights (overhead bins) - what I do know is that the current condition of the 752’s service panels: very old looking and finger treads on the air nozzles are black with dirt in every groove- it’s seriously gross. I’m not a germaphobe, but I won’t touch them!

But I do think that once inside refurbishing an old aircraft, United should spring for the entryway sign and new bulkhead design.

Last: we rarely ever discuss the 753 fleet. I know she plays an important role as a hub to hub people mover, but how old are they and how much life is left in those flying “bowling alleys?” And while we all wax on about the 767 & 752’s & HD 772’s, what would or could possibly take their place?


I can confirm the UA 753 refurb was half assed (pardon my French). While the carpets, and seats are new, everything else is from the initial interior. There are two different sidewall designs in the 753, the original CO design, and a different one for the ATA planes. The overhead bins are a yellowish white at this point and the passenger service panels are all original. But the worst thing about the 753s has to be the lighting. The fluorescent light tubes are often miss matching colors and give the plane a very dreary look overall.

I really think UA should have done floor to ceiling cabin refurbs of their entire fleet rather than springing for a new livery. Passengers generally see the exterior of their plane for 30-45 minutes prior to departure and most are likely not paying attention to the exterior. Passengers spend their time in the aircraft cabin, for hours at a time in many cases. To me, this should have been a priority.

As the new livery starts propagating imagine the disappointment many passengers will have when they realize the shiny new exterior gives way to aircraft cabins that look little better than greyhound buses.

77H


I agree. I know the 753s are getting up there in age, and investment must be a more challenging decision, but not replacing the yellowed panels and fluorescent lighting looks just awful. New seats, new carpet, resurfaced bulkhead panels, and the rest looks old!
 
mcg
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:40 pm

jayunited wrote:
wn676 wrote:
And yes, while it's definitely not ideal on segments like ORD-HNL/OGG they do enjoy virtually no non-stop competition for now. On HNL in particular though, how long do you think that advantage will last? Not to say that they present a huge threat at the moment, but AA is extending their seasonal flight next year.


I'll answer you question by saying this for this upcoming Christmas season AA has to run 2 788s on their seasonal ORD-HNL route. UA only needs 1 HD 77G.

Okay AA has the edge in terms of onboard hard product, but if these two carriers match each other in price guess who wins that battle UA because UA only needs one plane which significantly lowers our operating cost for the overall route while AA just to beat UA's 364 seat needs 2 788s. I don't know much about AA's network but I will say this it doesn't seem like AA has the right aircraft in the right configuration to mount a serious challenge to UA on a year around basis. UA's 364 seats HD 77Gs are an advantage and not just on our ORD-HNL route. The reason AA's ORD-HNL route is seasonal is because its not sustainable over the long run because AA doesn't have an aircraft with the right configuration to make the route work on a year around basis. If AA ever posed a serious threat to UA on the ORD-HNL route UA could simply throw a 78J on the route and would still have more capacity than AA if both ran a single nonstop flight year around.

Again I state it isn't fair do to a comparison contrast between these 2 carriers but you keep dragging AA into this and it is not a fair comparison. UA has 3 different frames 77G, 77W and 78J all with over 300 seats AA only has the 77W. Instead of comparing these 2 carriers judge UA's HD 77Gs on their own merit look at them and their place in UA's overall network only then will you understand why UA has this aircraft in this configuration.


I think the number of people who select their flight from ORD - HNL based on the aircraft and the configuration of the front cabin to be pretty close to zero. Most folks will choose whichever airline they are ff members, nearly all of the remainder will choose based on price and schedule.
 
kunta67
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 5:20 pm

Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:00 am

I wonder if they could use a version of JAL’s 2-3-2 lie flat seats that have all aisle access on the 777G. Could you get 6 rows between Door 1 and 2?

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