jayunited
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:24 am

mcg wrote:
I think the number of people who select their flight from ORD - HNL based on the aircraft and the configuration of the front cabin to be pretty close to zero. Most folks will choose whichever airline they are ff members, nearly all of the remainder will choose based on price and schedule.


I think you missed the point of the entire exchange between myself and wn676 you seem to have pick up just the tail end of the exchange. We were talking about the HD 77As configuration and why I believe IPTE should go to reduce the number of lie flat configurations from 3 to 2. We were not about frequent flyers, the general public and why people choose one over the other.

Here is a article or opinion (The Points Guy) that calls United's IPTE "America's worst lie flat product."
https://thepointsguy.com/reviews/united ... ess-class/
 
UAinAUS
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:10 am

CR5:
N159GJ ferried STL, has new livery and CR5 interior
N162GJ is in new livery, at TUS for interior mods

E175SC:
N608UX- correction, not yet in revenue service “delivered”
N609UX- entered revenue service 14Aug
N610UX delivered to ExpressJet
N611UX delivered to ExpressJet
N612UX delivered to ExpressJet
 
GmoneyCO
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:04 am

calpsafltskeds wrote:
GmoneyCO wrote:
    2 --- The 787 Diamond seats will not fit properly in the 777 fleet. The 787 cabin width is 1ft 3in narrower than the 777. While the seat is smaller, I imagine many of the interior components are the same and the 787 seat parts could be used to refurbish the 777 Diamond seats from the GE powered 777s


A bit out there, but I wonder since the 777 Diamond seats are are 1.5 inches narrower, do they take up the same space front to back as on the 772? The 763 Diamond seats are out there as well, plenty of window pairs available.

Without an expensive FAA recertification, could the 777 or 763 Diamond seats be retooled slightly to increase angle to make them shorter overall? If so, maybe 28 would fit into the 77G without reconfiguring anything else?

Assuming the 4 PW 772ERs will have the same configuration as the 77G, that requires lav movement to the front of Door 2 or a row of Y will be eliminated. I would guess UA will bite that bullet to match 77G and 772ER interior configurations.


According to the UA website, the 767 and 787 seats are the same width, with the 767 seats being 3" shorter than the 787 and 777 seats. On a 5 row configuration, we we're talking the width of a closet. I do not think this will be enough to fit 30 in if I recall the mid-cabin galley locations correctly. They would likely match the seat count at 28 but getting 2 others in wouldn't work.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:16 am

The one you describe on JAL is 47" pitch 7 across, recliners - no lie flats. Those can't be all-aisle access.
https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Japan ... 00ER_C.php

jayunited: you could be right if UA gets all those new widebodies and the economy stays strong. Yoiu'd never have a weight restriction, but would pay more for fuel and landing fees.
If the economy stays real strong, 772As may stay longer.
A bit soft and maybe some 772ERs would be converted from Polaris to Domestic to retire at least some 772Gs.
Weak economy and maybe up to 19 772ERs pre-2000 PW772ERs also get retired. Interesting that the Pre-2000 PW772ER number 19, same as 772A fleet.

GCMoney. if they look hard enough something might work and anticipate the mid galley in the 772G config could get slimmed. 5 rows times 3 inches = equals 15 inches and some closets are that small or a larger closet could be reduced.

763:
N661UA exited MCO 2762/16Aug
 
77H
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:40 am

gwrudolph wrote:
77H wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I haven’t been on a UA 753 (potentially have never been on one, if I was, it was a very long time ago!)

I was googling around and found someone’s review (not anyone I ever heard of) of the newly configured 753, with pics. Apparently this reviewer is often on the UA 753. However the review was a bit old, it compared the newly refurbished 753 to the new 73MAX9 they had flown, (but no mention the grounding of all MAX’s) as well as comparing the refurbished 753 to the ex China A319 refurbishment. They were generally positive in their review, but did give UA some negatives for the new 753 interior. While the review was positive about UA’s new F seat, and even mildly positive about E+, they did go onto say that the half way refurb was indeed very noticeable.
No new entryway blue dotted branding panel, (which I too think should be part of the refurbishment of old birds) and basically only a “United First” placard on the forward bulkhead, but just plain wall paper otherwise and NOT the new “really nice modern, patterned” design as seen on the new (but used) Airbuses and MAX’s.
They also commented very negatively about the old lighting vs the MAX.

I can actually understand the lightning not being upgraded to the softer LED colored lighting because I would think that would be quite expensive. But that’s just a guess, I don’t know how much more time and money it would cost to install that along with new seats and carpeting. And I don’t know what it would take to replace the service panels, air nozzles and lights (overhead bins) - what I do know is that the current condition of the 752’s service panels: very old looking and finger treads on the air nozzles are black with dirt in every groove- it’s seriously gross. I’m not a germaphobe, but I won’t touch them!

But I do think that once inside refurbishing an old aircraft, United should spring for the entryway sign and new bulkhead design.

Last: we rarely ever discuss the 753 fleet. I know she plays an important role as a hub to hub people mover, but how old are they and how much life is left in those flying “bowling alleys?” And while we all wax on about the 767 & 752’s & HD 772’s, what would or could possibly take their place?


I can confirm the UA 753 refurb was half assed (pardon my French). While the carpets, and seats are new, everything else is from the initial interior. There are two different sidewall designs in the 753, the original CO design, and a different one for the ATA planes. The overhead bins are a yellowish white at this point and the passenger service panels are all original. But the worst thing about the 753s has to be the lighting. The fluorescent light tubes are often miss matching colors and give the plane a very dreary look overall.

I really think UA should have done floor to ceiling cabin refurbs of their entire fleet rather than springing for a new livery. Passengers generally see the exterior of their plane for 30-45 minutes prior to departure and most are likely not paying attention to the exterior. Passengers spend their time in the aircraft cabin, for hours at a time in many cases. To me, this should have been a priority.

As the new livery starts propagating imagine the disappointment many passengers will have when they realize the shiny new exterior gives way to aircraft cabins that look little better than greyhound buses.

77H


I agree. I know the 753s are getting up there in age, and investment must be a more challenging decision, but not replacing the yellowed panels and fluorescent lighting looks just awful. New seats, new carpet, resurfaced bulkhead panels, and the rest looks old!


I’d be interested to know what the cost differential is between installing new sidewalls, lighting and overhead bins vs completely repainting an aircraft. My personal opinion is that the money spent on developing and implementation of the new livery would have been better spent updating the cabins of some of the older aircraft. Having flown on a newly refurbished DL 753 getting onboard a UA 753 is a complete disappointment. DL has invested money into updating the cabins of aircraft far older than what UA has.

77H
 
blacksoviet
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:37 am

GmoneyCO wrote:
UnitedIsBae wrote:
United is removing 752s since they don't meet the FAAs new fuel tank requirements right? Are they taking the oldest ones out first without the mods?


The 752s that are currently in the fleet have all received the mods and will be staying in the fleet for the foreseeable future. All of the 752s that were going to be removed because of the new fuel tank requirements have already been removed.


How much does the fuel tank modification cost?
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:12 am

77H wrote:
I’d be interested to know what the cost differential is between installing new sidewalls, lighting and overhead bins vs completely repainting an aircraft. My personal opinion is that the money spent on developing and implementation of the new livery would have been better spent updating the cabins of some of the older aircraft.


Planes have to be repainted anyway, regardless of whether they’re being painted into a new livery or a different one. I doubt the new livery costs more than the old livery to actually paint on the side of a plane, so as long as it’s applied at the regularly scheduled paint interval anyway, the cost to implement the new livery is close to zero. The cost to design the livery tweak wasn’t free, but would still be tiny in comparison to the cost of tons of interior components of a plane.

I’m not saying they shouldn’t redo the interiors. But it’s a false dichotomy to assume that it was a choice of either a new livery or new cabins.
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word.
There is no 787-800, nor 787-900 or 747-800. It's 787-8, 787-9, and 747-8.
A321neoLR is also unnecessary. It's simply A321LR.
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VC10er
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:04 pm

77H wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I haven’t been on a UA 753 (potentially have never been on one, if I was, it was a very long time ago!)

I was googling around and found someone’s review (not anyone I ever heard of) of the newly configured 753, with pics. Apparently this reviewer is often on the UA 753. However the review was a bit old, it compared the newly refurbished 753 to the new 73MAX9 they had flown, (but no mention the grounding of all MAX’s) as well as comparing the refurbished 753 to the ex China A319 refurbishment. They were generally positive in their review, but did give UA some negatives for the new 753 interior. While the review was positive about UA’s new F seat, and even mildly positive about E+, they did go onto say that the half way refurb was indeed very noticeable.
No new entryway blue dotted branding panel, (which I too think should be part of the refurbishment of old birds) and basically only a “United First” placard on the forward bulkhead, but just plain wall paper otherwise and NOT the new “really nice modern, patterned” design as seen on the new (but used) Airbuses and MAX’s.
They also commented very negatively about the old lighting vs the MAX.

I can actually understand the lightning not being upgraded to the softer LED colored lighting because I would think that would be quite expensive. But that’s just a guess, I don’t know how much more time and money it would cost to install that along with new seats and carpeting. And I don’t know what it would take to replace the service panels, air nozzles and lights (overhead bins) - what I do know is that the current condition of the 752’s service panels: very old looking and finger treads on the air nozzles are black with dirt in every groove- it’s seriously gross. I’m not a germaphobe, but I won’t touch them!

But I do think that once inside refurbishing an old aircraft, United should spring for the entryway sign and new bulkhead design.

Last: we rarely ever discuss the 753 fleet. I know she plays an important role as a hub to hub people mover, but how old are they and how much life is left in those flying “bowling alleys?” And while we all wax on about the 767 & 752’s & HD 772’s, what would or could possibly take their place?


I can confirm the UA 753 refurb was half assed (pardon my French). While the carpets, and seats are new, everything else is from the initial interior. There are two different sidewall designs in the 753, the original CO design, and a different one for the ATA planes. The overhead bins are a yellowish white at this point and the passenger service panels are all original. But the worst thing about the 753s has to be the lighting. The fluorescent light tubes are often miss matching colors and give the plane a very dreary look overall.

I really think UA should have done floor to ceiling cabin refurbs of their entire fleet rather than springing for a new livery. Passengers generally see the exterior of their plane for 30-45 minutes prior to departure and most are likely not paying attention to the exterior. Passengers spend their time in the aircraft cabin, for hours at a time in many cases. To me, this should have been a priority.

As the new livery starts propagating imagine the disappointment many passengers will have when they realize the shiny new exterior gives way to aircraft cabins that look little better than greyhound buses.

77H


Your French is fine with me!
Even though I have not been on a 753 in god knows how long, I am of the opinion that if any aircraft is going to continue flying past 2020, it cannot be a half assed job!
As stated before, clearly United knows how to renovate an interior extremely well when they want to. The evidence is already in service on the used Airbuses and the completed 763’s and 772’s. (I’m not making a distinction between an international WB or domestic narrow body) simply that United can take a very old aircraft and from the inside make it look factory new, but also with some style, attention to details and obtaining a BRANDED ENVIRONMENT, so that any kind of passenger sees and feels the NEW UNITED BRAND.

It is VERY CORRECT: a new livery communicates a new experience. New branding is a promise of a new experience. When I lead the rebranding for Pizza Hut and KFC when they were owned by Pesico, the CEO told franchisees that unless they renovated the actual restaurant, they were not permitted to use the new identity. You cannot represent change for the better via new branding (in this case new livery) and not have enough palpable change inside the aircraft.

I haven’t a clue, but how many passengers will fly annually on United’s 21 753’s per year @230ish passengers a fight? I bet it adds up fast. Each time 1 pax senses the lighting is horrible, bins are yellowed and have inconsistent walls & bulkheads that is 1 missed opportunity to make a better impression.

If they are going to fly more than another year, then that simply reinforces old perceptions and squanders the enormous investments made elsewhere.

While United is NOT trying to be a 5 Star airline, but wants to be a solid 4.3 Star airline, they must ask themselves “would LH dispatch an aircraft that looks like this?

Same holds true for the HD 772’s. (and don’t get me started on UA’s older 737-800’s!)
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
freeze3192
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:34 pm

For what it’s worth, the other day I was on an A319 (850UA) that had the new style China Southern style front bulkhead. Anyone know if all of the Airbii will eventually have this? It looks much better than the old legacy UA bulkhead.
"A passenger bets his life that his pilot is a worthy heir to an ancient tradition of excellence and professionalism."
 
GmoneyCO
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:16 pm

freeze3192 wrote:
For what it’s worth, the other day I was on an A319 (850UA) that had the new style China Southern style front bulkhead. Anyone know if all of the Airbii will eventually have this? It looks much better than the old legacy UA bulkhead.


That aircraft is the only A319 that has undergone the upgrade from 8 First seats to 12 First seats. Sounds like the new front bulkhead is part of the upgrade.
 
77H
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:48 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
77H wrote:
I’d be interested to know what the cost differential is between installing new sidewalls, lighting and overhead bins vs completely repainting an aircraft. My personal opinion is that the money spent on developing and implementation of the new livery would have been better spent updating the cabins of some of the older aircraft.


Planes have to be repainted anyway, regardless of whether they’re being painted into a new livery or a different one. I doubt the new livery costs more than the old livery to actually paint on the side of a plane, so as long as it’s applied at the regularly scheduled paint interval anyway, the cost to implement the new livery is close to zero. The cost to design the livery tweak wasn’t free, but would still be tiny in comparison to the cost of tons of interior components of a plane.

I’m not saying they shouldn’t redo the interiors. But it’s a false dichotomy to assume that it was a choice of either a new livery or new cabins.


I never assumed anything... that’s why I asked the question. Furthermore... you have to factor in the cost of developing the new livery of which UA likely paid millions to do. My position is that interior refurbs should have been a bigger priority and would have gone farther in my opinion to present an updated revitalized brand.

Again, passengers are more likely to notice a run down, outdated cabin than they are a new shiny livery.

77H
 
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cosyr
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:17 am

77H wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
77H wrote:
I’d be interested to know what the cost differential is between installing new sidewalls, lighting and overhead bins vs completely repainting an aircraft. My personal opinion is that the money spent on developing and implementation of the new livery would have been better spent updating the cabins of some of the older aircraft.


Planes have to be repainted anyway, regardless of whether they’re being painted into a new livery or a different one. I doubt the new livery costs more than the old livery to actually paint on the side of a plane, so as long as it’s applied at the regularly scheduled paint interval anyway, the cost to implement the new livery is close to zero. The cost to design the livery tweak wasn’t free, but would still be tiny in comparison to the cost of tons of interior components of a plane.

I’m not saying they shouldn’t redo the interiors. But it’s a false dichotomy to assume that it was a choice of either a new livery or new cabins.


I never assumed anything... that’s why I asked the question. Furthermore... you have to factor in the cost of developing the new livery of which UA likely paid millions to do. My position is that interior refurbs should have been a bigger priority and would have gone farther in my opinion to present an updated revitalized brand.

Again, passengers are more likely to notice a run down, outdated cabin than they are a new shiny livery.

77H

But United can't use that logic to always put every penny into interiors, and never invest in their outward brand. Plenty of people have been saying that UA needs to change their livery since the merger. After a decade, they finally put some money that way, and they're still refurbishing interiors, as well.
 
77H
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:07 am

cosyr wrote:
77H wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:

Planes have to be repainted anyway, regardless of whether they’re being painted into a new livery or a different one. I doubt the new livery costs more than the old livery to actually paint on the side of a plane, so as long as it’s applied at the regularly scheduled paint interval anyway, the cost to implement the new livery is close to zero. The cost to design the livery tweak wasn’t free, but would still be tiny in comparison to the cost of tons of interior components of a plane.

I’m not saying they shouldn’t redo the interiors. But it’s a false dichotomy to assume that it was a choice of either a new livery or new cabins.


I never assumed anything... that’s why I asked the question. Furthermore... you have to factor in the cost of developing the new livery of which UA likely paid millions to do. My position is that interior refurbs should have been a bigger priority and would have gone farther in my opinion to present an updated revitalized brand.

Again, passengers are more likely to notice a run down, outdated cabin than they are a new shiny livery.

77H

But United can't use that logic to always put every penny into interiors, and never invest in their outward brand. Plenty of people have been saying that UA needs to change their livery since the merger. After a decade, they finally put some money that way, and they're still refurbishing interiors, as well.


Who are the “plenty of people” saying UA needs a new livery, avgeeks or airline employees? I highly doubt the general flying public cares about what external livery looks like.. they spend their time in the passenger cabin. So far this year I’ve done 23 segments on the 738, 739, 752, 753 and 77A with the majority of those on the 753 and 77A. The 77A isn’t terrible put the 738s, 752s are really long in the tooth and the 753s are inconsistent and the original CO interiors are quite a bit worse than the original TZ birds. I could care less about the exterior of the fleet as long as the livery is consistent and well maintained. To me, the interior should be as well.

77H
 
VC10er
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:24 am

77H wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
77H wrote:
I’d be interested to know what the cost differential is between installing new sidewalls, lighting and overhead bins vs completely repainting an aircraft. My personal opinion is that the money spent on developing and implementation of the new livery would have been better spent updating the cabins of some of the older aircraft.


Planes have to be repainted anyway, regardless of whether they’re being painted into a new livery or a different one. I doubt the new livery costs more than the old livery to actually paint on the side of a plane, so as long as it’s applied at the regularly scheduled paint interval anyway, the cost to implement the new livery is close to zero. The cost to design the livery tweak wasn’t free, but would still be tiny in comparison to the cost of tons of interior components of a plane.

I’m not saying they shouldn’t redo the interiors. But it’s a false dichotomy to assume that it was a choice of either a new livery or new cabins.


I never assumed anything... that’s why I asked the question. Furthermore... you have to factor in the cost of developing the new livery of which UA likely paid millions to do. My position is that interior refurbs should have been a bigger priority and would have gone farther in my opinion to present an updated revitalized brand.

Again, passengers are more likely to notice a run down, outdated cabin than they are a new shiny livery.

77H


Just curious: when you and others say “spent millions on a new livery” are you referring to the fees paid to an agency like Landor- or are you rolling up everything including the actual painting of aircraft?
I ask only because the days when there were just a few branding and design agencies were paid in millions is long gone. Today airlines are seeking any agency who’s prior work and how impressive the team is, and are often paying far less.
“The power of branding and its effectiveness to appeal and attract business” was a practice that few paid much attention to. 25 to 30 years ago branding was HOT with marketing MBA’s, yet they understood it less than advertising. So, to make up for their lack of experience, to help assure they got branding right, they were willing to hire the big (famous) agencies and pay very well.
However once they decoded the secrets of the magic of branding and design, as senior executives from those agencies opened up leaner agencies (but with the experience under their belts) airlines found new, smaller but very smart and talented agencies without Madison Ave cfee structures. It can still pass $1 million in fees over a couple of years, I would guess Priestman Goode can command good fees based on their track record. But the REAL EXPENDITURES were when airlines decided to execute as a fast change over and not have a mixed fleet of old and new flying together for years for long vs wait until the bird was due for new paint. UA always went for the latter, changing to Saul Bass to Battleship over a long stretch: same for shades of Blue. A quick change over for airlines the size of UA, DL and AA would choke on the cost of a quick change given fleet size.
But the branding business landscape has changed as has the older biz models MEGA global AD agencies like Ogilvy or Y&R or JWT or Leo Burnett- moving from basically free creative but compensated by % of media buy.
Like an agency like Landor (fee per project) and media buying going in house.
Plus, TV for airlines like when I was a child went from brand reputation building to $99 RT to Orlando advertising. Many of the big agencies couldn’t made money always running around do “deal AD’s for TWA” and ultimately the AD agencies let them go...until direct turned into targeted digital marketing.
Off the top of my head, if you take out EVERYTHING except for just the core livery branding, an agency would probably charge anywhere from $175,000 to $400,000 depending if an airline wanted an an update or total overhaul, Eg: Green & Orange Cathay to Brush Wing, vs UNITED, and take our current visual equities and freshen them up.
In short agency fees are a drop in the bucket vs painting 750 aircraft or changing the Pizza Hut identity on 11,000 locations.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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cosyr
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:07 pm

77H wrote:
cosyr wrote:
77H wrote:

I never assumed anything... that’s why I asked the question. Furthermore... you have to factor in the cost of developing the new livery of which UA likely paid millions to do. My position is that interior refurbs should have been a bigger priority and would have gone farther in my opinion to present an updated revitalized brand.

Again, passengers are more likely to notice a run down, outdated cabin than they are a new shiny livery.

77H

But United can't use that logic to always put every penny into interiors, and never invest in their outward brand. Plenty of people have been saying that UA needs to change their livery since the merger. After a decade, they finally put some money that way, and they're still refurbishing interiors, as well.


Who are the “plenty of people” saying UA needs a new livery, avgeeks or airline employees? I highly doubt the general flying public cares about what external livery looks like.. they spend their time in the passenger cabin.

77H

Just as you say the general public sees the inside the plane, they also see the outside of the plane. True, the majority of the general public doesn't say "Geez, they need a new livery!" The general public doesn't know what the word livery means. That doesn't mean that they don't get a subconscious impression of the airline and brand by the livery. Some people may not be able to put their finger on what exactly makes them think it, but things like outdated fonts and colors make them think, "something about that plane looks old." It's why fashion trends change, and why HGTV is one of the most popular TV channels. People can walk into a perfectly maintained kitchen and say it looks old and dated.

And they get similar impressions from the inside of planes, so yes, they should continue to invest in retrofits, but you must always be investing a little bit in all parts of the airline. Interiors, Exteriors, Brand, employee pay and satisfaction, new aircraft expenditures, lost money on new routes to develop into future profitable ones, etc. Both old UA (new planes) and old CO (branding) neglected parts of this mixture, and now they're playing catch up.
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:41 pm

An updated revised delivery schedule was put out this morning showing expected deliveries for the remainder of 2019 (I've omitted the MAX deliveries there is no point in posting it because the aircraft is still grounded with no end in sight). UA now expects to take delivery of 2 77Ws that hasn't changed but in addition to those frames UA is now expecting 2 78Js as well.
N2749U (77W) expected in the second half of November.
N2250U (77W) expected in the second half of December.
N12010 (78J) expected in the second half of November.
N14011 (78J) expected in the second half of December.

Depending on induction time frame the November deliveries should at the very least be in service on domestic routes for the Christmas holiday. It would be nice to have those frames available for the Thanksgiving holiday but I don't think induction will be complete by November 24 which is the start of Thanksgiving week here in the U.S..

Lastly UA expects to take it first delivery of the next batch of 789s in the second half of January 2020. N29975 will be the first 789 delivered from the factory with Polaris/PE installed it will join N29968 (if this frame remains the first to go in for reconfiguration it is subject to change) as the first 2 789 frames with Polaris/PE. The first 789 with Polaris/PE is schedule to leave revenue service in Late November 2019 and will reenter service early to mid January.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:28 pm

The fleet changes and fleet status posts at the start of this thread have been updated.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
77H
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:20 am

cosyr wrote:
77H wrote:
cosyr wrote:
But United can't use that logic to always put every penny into interiors, and never invest in their outward brand. Plenty of people have been saying that UA needs to change their livery since the merger. After a decade, they finally put some money that way, and they're still refurbishing interiors, as well.


Who are the “plenty of people” saying UA needs a new livery, avgeeks or airline employees? I highly doubt the general flying public cares about what external livery looks like.. they spend their time in the passenger cabin.

77H

Just as you say the general public sees the inside the plane, they also see the outside of the plane. True, the majority of the general public doesn't say "Geez, they need a new livery!" The general public doesn't know what the word livery means. That doesn't mean that they don't get a subconscious impression of the airline and brand by the livery. Some people may not be able to put their finger on what exactly makes them think it, but things like outdated fonts and colors make them think, "something about that plane looks old." It's why fashion trends change, and why HGTV is one of the most popular TV channels. People can walk into a perfectly maintained kitchen and say it looks old and dated.

And they get similar impressions from the inside of planes, so yes, they should continue to invest in retrofits, but you must always be investing a little bit in all parts of the airline. Interiors, Exteriors, Brand, employee pay and satisfaction, new aircraft expenditures, lost money on new routes to develop into future profitable ones, etc. Both old UA (new planes) and old CO (branding) neglected parts of this mixture, and now they're playing catch up.


I guess the point that I’m making, that VC10 originally brought up was that the 73Gs, 738s, 739s, 752 and 753 fleets received partial refurbs getting new seats (or seat covers in the 752s case) and new carpets but the lighting, both cabin and illuminated signage, sidewalls and overhead bins are in pitiful shape. Beyond that, the newer 738, 739 frames have sky interior with updated cabins making the fleet type as a whole have a very inconsistent product. In my opinion I think UA made a mistake in not investing to standardize the 737 and 757 fleets with a consistent, updated cabin. The overall point is why do a half assed refurb? Update some things but leave others in a sorry state?

I flew on DL’s 753s HNL-SEA-HNL a few years ago and was blown away by the interior. It was depressing stepping aboard one of UA’s 753s a short time there after, seeing how dated and dreary it was inside.
I have seen cabin pictures of other DL fleet types and the interiors blow the doors off the majority of UA’s fleet.

And its not like it UA hasn’t refurbed cabins to completion... I was just on a new Polaris 77E from NRT-ORD in December. Though seated in Polaris I asked an FA if I could tour the cabin. I walked through PE, and Y and it appeared that the plane had a floor to ceiling refurb.

77H
 
UAinAUS
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:13 pm

UAX Update:

CR7:
N168GJ exited service. At STL awaiting CR5 mod

E175SC:
N613UX has been delivered to ExpressJet
N608UX entered revenue service 20Aug
 
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LAXintl
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:22 pm

Embraer factory floor.

4 new builds for ExpressJet

Image

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ECb4h2EWwAA10v3?format=jpg
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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STT757
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:02 am

LAXintl wrote:
Embraer factory floor.

4 new builds for ExpressJet

Image

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ECb4h2EWwAA10v3?format=jpg


The new livery looks great on the Embraer 175, it would look even better on the ERJ-195E2.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:00 pm

763:
N657UA entered HKG 2717/16Aug, potential High J Polaris (unit on retire list, but some will be converted)

77W:
N2341U cxld 862/20Aug, unsure if maint or HKG political situation
 
snuggs28
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:45 am

N2341U HPT Blade Damage #1 Engine Change.
 
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KVH68
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:03 am

Looks like the "Her Art Here" 757 will be unveiled at the United Family Day event on Sunday, October 13 at the United SFO maintenance base.
 
VC10er
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:57 pm

77H wrote:
cosyr wrote:
77H wrote:

Who are the “plenty of people” saying UA needs a new livery, avgeeks or airline employees? I highly doubt the general flying public cares about what external livery looks like.. they spend their time in the passenger cabin.

77H

Just as you say the general public sees the inside the plane, they also see the outside of the plane. True, the majority of the general public doesn't say "Geez, they need a new livery!" The general public doesn't know what the word livery means. That doesn't mean that they don't get a subconscious impression of the airline and brand by the livery. Some people may not be able to put their finger on what exactly makes them think it, but things like outdated fonts and colors make them think, "something about that plane looks old." It's why fashion trends change, and why HGTV is one of the most popular TV channels. People can walk into a perfectly maintained kitchen and say it looks old and dated.

And they get similar impressions from the inside of planes, so yes, they should continue to invest in retrofits, but you must always be investing a little bit in all parts of the airline. Interiors, Exteriors, Brand, employee pay and satisfaction, new aircraft expenditures, lost money on new routes to develop into future profitable ones, etc. Both old UA (new planes) and old CO (branding) neglected parts of this mixture, and now they're playing catch up.


I guess the point that I’m making, that VC10 originally brought up was that the 73Gs, 738s, 739s, 752 and 753 fleets received partial refurbs getting new seats (or seat covers in the 752s case) and new carpets but the lighting, both cabin and illuminated signage, sidewalls and overhead bins are in pitiful shape. Beyond that, the newer 738, 739 frames have sky interior with updated cabins making the fleet type as a whole have a very inconsistent product. In my opinion I think UA made a mistake in not investing to standardize the 737 and 757 fleets with a consistent, updated cabin. The overall point is why do a half assed refurb? Update some things but leave others in a sorry state?

I flew on DL’s 753s HNL-SEA-HNL a few years ago and was blown away by the interior. It was depressing stepping aboard one of UA’s 753s a short time there after, seeing how dated and dreary it was inside.
I have seen cabin pictures of other DL fleet types and the interiors blow the doors off the majority of UA’s fleet.

And its not like it UA hasn’t refurbed cabins to completion... I was just on a new Polaris 77E from NRT-ORD in December. Though seated in Polaris I asked an FA if I could tour the cabin. I walked through PE, and Y and it appeared that the plane had a floor to ceiling refurb.

77H


Hi VC10er here!
The “half assed” interiors beat a “zero assed” job. But it is upsetting when you really are rooting for them and then you experience within a 2/3 city multi stop, for Biz, and experience 2 or 3 or 4 different UA aircraft- all within the space of 1 week of travel. Depending on the mix of aircraft it can serve as a perfect example of UA today in its disturbingly inconsistent state of change: Polaris out on a 77W, then hop across Europe for meetings aboard a *A parter, then fly home on a tatty old 752 for 7 hours over water, then to Miami on a 738, then back home on a new (but used) A319 with a sterling interior. 10 days later you’ve got to go to LA. You could maybe get the 78X out, but home on a 752 that is in SHAMEFUL condition, or worse a HD 772.

Ok, I cut UA some slack: they simply cannot do it all to 100% perfection in a blink of an eye, they are obviously spending like crazy on refurbishments, lounges, airports new and used aircraft (being totally screwed up by no MAX deliveries) etc. So, I will gladly give them them an additional year (end of 2022?) then the half assed aircraft are either gone, or they went back in to finish the job on aircraft such as the half baked 753s, etc.

Granted: while there was so much stagnation after the merger, a seriously managed merging, a new CEO that requires a heart transplant after 2 months on the job, etc. Combined that gave Delta a huge running start, and an opportunity to take away many big spending business fliers from both UA & CO. But the days of excuses will run out. United cannot be flying about 100 738’s with the old interiors a First Class seats from Tower Airlines.

I recently looked into flying to Rio in early October and the Polaris prices were around $9000 to $11,000 on an old 3 class 772. Rio! $11,000 in the ITPE seat to GRU! Or, on the EWR/IAH/GIG on a 738 to an old 763? I have not yet flown LATAM, but JFK on a 77W to GRU, then an A320 45 minutes over to GIG for just $6000 RT? (I don’t know, I’ll guess LATAM 77W is decent?)
I am GS and I like the privileges, but I’ll lose it if I don’t fly UA metal.

But if Munoz/Kirby actually think it’s ok “long term” to fly millions of folks around in such dated and often tatty looking aircraft inside - they will NOT see their vision come true.

When I went to TLV and back on the 77W, brand new EWR Polaris Lounge- AN HOLISTICALLY AMAZING EXPERIENCE and really encouraging! United must deliver that level of “holistic and consistent Brand experience” everywhere, international or domestic. Not just patches of macro to micro execution. They not allow birds with 5+ years lof life in them. Sure, fry the big fish first, but don’t stop at 75%.
I think 3 years is fair timing to do it all “full assed” :-)
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:06 pm

Hot off the presses:
Today, we (UA) unveiled an expanded international schedule from our hubs in Chicago, Denver, New York/Newark and San Francisco. New destinations include service to Curaçao, Nice, France, and Palermo, Italy.
Year around DEN-LHR, ORD-ZRH (High J 763), 2nd EWR-FRA, year around SFO-DEL.

https://hub.united.com/united-new-route ... ugust_2019
 
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CALTECH
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:11 pm

# 297 went into AMA for new paint.........

Can't remember if this was posted before, looks like 5 more 787-9s info....

Nose#......./Type......./MFG.S/N......./N Number/ ......Fuse #

TBD ..........787-9 .....66134 ............TBD ..................0960
TBD ..........787-9 .....66135 ............TBD ..................0970
TBD ..........787-9 .....66136 ............TBD ..................0974
TBD ..........787-9 .....66137 ............TBD ..................0986
TBD ..........787-9 .....66141 ............TBD ..................1004
The gun is a precious Symbol of Freedom
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Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
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Runway28L
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:24 pm

CALTECH wrote:
# 297 went into AMA for new paint.........

About time. Saw it at PIT last week and that was the saddest looking B738 I’ve ever seen. Huge chunks of paint completely missing from the nose and both sides of the fuselage.
 
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cosyr
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:54 pm

Runway28L wrote:
CALTECH wrote:
# 297 went into AMA for new paint.........

About time. Saw it at PIT last week and that was the saddest looking B738 I’ve ever seen. Huge chunks of paint completely missing from the nose and both sides of the fuselage.

Presumably going to come out in the new livery?

Is it too soon to add a paint % progress chart to the first page of the thread? I know it seems like we just finished completion of the last one post-merger, and there's only a half-dozen planes so far, but that was really how this thread got started years ago.
 
FSDan
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:32 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
Hot off the presses:
Today, we (UA) unveiled an expanded international schedule from our hubs in Chicago, Denver, New York/Newark and San Francisco. New destinations include service to Curaçao, Nice, France, and Palermo, Italy.
Year around DEN-LHR, ORD-ZRH (High J 763), 2nd EWR-FRA, year around SFO-DEL.

https://hub.united.com/united-new-route ... ugust_2019


Will UA have all 21 76Ls online by summer? So far it seems like 14 frames would be needed to cover ORD-LHR x3, ORD-ZRH, EWR-LHR x5, EWR-NCE, EWR-FRA, EWR-GVA, and EWR-ZRH. Any official announcements for IAD-GVA, IAD-ZRH, or the morning IAD-LHR yet?
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
mattnrsa
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:03 pm

CALTECH wrote:
Can't remember if this was posted before, looks like 5 more 787-9s info....

Nose#......./Type......./MFG.S/N......./N Number/ ......Fuse #

TBD ..........787-9 .....66134 ............TBD ..................0960
TBD ..........787-9 .....66135 ............TBD ..................0970
TBD ..........787-9 .....66136 ............TBD ..................0974
TBD ..........787-9 .....66137 ............TBD ..................0986
TBD ..........787-9 .....66141 ............TBD ..................1004

Does that mean five additional (yet to be announced) 787-9s have been ordered, or is that new detail on an existing order?
 
codc10
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:12 pm

CALTECH wrote:
# 297 went into AMA for new paint.........

Can't remember if this was posted before, looks like 5 more 787-9s info....

Nose#......./Type......./MFG.S/N......./N Number/ ......Fuse #

TBD ..........787-9 .....66134 ............TBD ..................0960
TBD ..........787-9 .....66135 ............TBD ..................0970
TBD ..........787-9 .....66136 ............TBD ..................0974
TBD ..........787-9 .....66137 ............TBD ..................0986
TBD ..........787-9 .....66141 ............TBD ..................1004


Aren't those all existing (in-service) fuselage numbers? The MSNs look awfully high, too... aren't we still in the 40s?
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:30 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
Hot off the presses:
Today, we (UA) unveiled an expanded international schedule from our hubs in Chicago, Denver, New York/Newark and San Francisco. New destinations include service to Curaçao, Nice, France, and Palermo, Italy.
Year around DEN-LHR, ORD-ZRH (High J 763), 2nd EWR-FRA, year around SFO-DEL.

https://hub.united.com/united-new-route ... ugust_2019


Finally ORD gets some love with our first all new widebody international destination since the merger.

SFO-DEL going from season to year-round service was a bit unexpected this early, most people expected UA to go year round when the flight resumed in 2020 but to remain seasonal for the inaugural season. However a few weeks ago Kirby did give employees a big hint when he stated at a town hall that SFO-DEL ticket sales/demand was already out performing what UA had forecast for the route.

Looking at all the international additions from SFO, UA shows no sign of slowing down their growth both domestically and internationally from this hub. As far as West Coast gateways UA's SFO hubs is the best gateway for a US3 airline.
 
VC10er
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:45 pm

It “seems” to me, had Boeing said they would build some pax 763s for UA, it does seem (given these fairly steady NEW international destinations), United could’ve really used more 763s given their “right sized” pax counts: either regular or high premium. Palermo!

Are the UA fleet planners looking for used but healthy 763ERs, like the Hawaiian 763ERs?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:13 pm

VC10er wrote:
It “seems” to me, had Boeing said they would build some pax 763s for UA, it does seem (given these fairly steady NEW international destinations), United could’ve really used more 763s given their “right sized” pax counts: either regular or high premium. Palermo!

Are the UA fleet planners looking for used but healthy 763ERs, like the Hawaiian 763ERs?


No UA is using the aircraft already in the fleet this includes the ex-HA 763s.

Keep in mind UA is scheduled to take delivery of 4 77Ws, 2 of which will be delivered this year in November and December. There are 5 78Js still to be delivered an updated delivery scheduled which was released earlier this week shows 2 78Js being delivered this year one in November and December. Last but not least first of 19 additional 789s are scheduled for delivery in by mid-January 2020. By May 2020, the remaining 2 77Ws will be in the fleet, 2 additional 78Js will join the 2 scheduled for delivery in 2019, while I have not seen the final schedule on how many of the 19 789s will be delivered by May 2020 I can imagine the number might be around 3-4 frames and also the 77Es Polaris installations will be complete with on the 77E fleet and most of the 763 fleet will be done. Work on the 764 fleet is not schedule to begin until the end of August 2020, and UA has issued a revised aggressive 788 Polaris installation schedule as well earlier this week that shows Polaris/PE installation on the 788 will be complete by Late-May 2020 ( I'm not sure I'm buying this new aggressive installation schedule for the 788s). The 789 Polaris/PE installation schedule remains unchanged completions expected November 2020.
UA will have a lot more frames in service for the summer 2020 season verses summer 2019.
 
VC10er
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:38 pm

jayunited wrote:
VC10er wrote:
It “seems” to me, had Boeing said they would build some pax 763s for UA, it does seem (given these fairly steady NEW international destinations), United could’ve really used more 763s given their “right sized” pax counts: either regular or high premium. Palermo!

Are the UA fleet planners looking for used but healthy 763ERs, like the Hawaiian 763ERs?


No UA is using the aircraft already in the fleet this includes the ex-HA 763s.

Keep in mind UA is scheduled to take delivery of 4 77Ws, 2 of which will be delivered this year in November and December. There are 5 78Js still to be delivered an updated delivery scheduled which was released earlier this week shows 2 78Js being delivered this year one in November and December. Last but not least first of 19 additional 789s are scheduled for delivery in by mid-January 2020. By May 2020, the remaining 2 77Ws will be in the fleet, 2 additional 78Js will join the 2 scheduled for delivery in 2019, while I have not seen the final schedule on how many of the 19 789s will be delivered by May 2020 I can imagine the number might be around 3-4 frames and also the 77Es Polaris installations will be complete with on the 77E fleet and most of the 763 fleet will be done. Work on the 764 fleet is not schedule to begin until the end of August 2020, and UA has issued a revised aggressive 788 Polaris installation schedule as well earlier this week that shows Polaris/PE installation on the 788 will be complete by Late-May 2020 ( I'm not sure I'm buying this new aggressive installation schedule for the 788s). The 789 Polaris/PE installation schedule remains unchanged completions expected November 2020.
UA will have a lot more frames in service for the summer 2020 season verses summer 2019.


Hey Jayunited!

Is “United” really your family’s last name? Is it on your birth certificate? Lol

Well, I did know that there were new aircraft coming, I knew there were 789s, but somehow the number “19” escaped me! WOW! All together that really puts a hell of a lot of new United seats in the sky! I can see how many 763s would be freed up!
So, AA bit the bullet and is using the 788 to replace 763s, but isn’t even the 788 quite a bit bigger than a 763? (No need to bring up the 797, I get that issue!)
And when are all current 789’s due to be finished?
As for your comment regarding the speeding up of Polaris/PE on the UA788; there are just 12? (Right) Maybe because it’s a route opener, especially a long thin one, perhaps when they open destination X with the 788 (and first impressions being what they are) maybe it will give folks at destination X a good first impression? Because, just say destination X will mostly be Americans on board, if it is the only nonstop to the USA, perhaps UA would be selling seats to local destination Xers. Like selling seats to residents of Cape Town? I don’t know if Delta flies to Palermo, but if UA has the only nonstop to NYC, given the enormous Siciliano population in the NYC Metro, wouldn’t Sicilian families will fly UA? (unless it’s priced super high?)

Providing United doesn’t start diluting what they have thus far achieved (and at great cost), 10 years from now nobody will remember the “stay away if at all possible” years and seeing a UA tail or two or three at a major or medium major cities (eg: Zurich, Brussels, etc, etc, etc) could become synonymous with “great airline” Ex: Israel. All Israelis I know (which are many, and almost all gay men) they LUV LOVE UA! They think it’s a great airline, but they also appreciate their commitment to Tel Aviv with so many flights to the US.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:45 pm

cosyr wrote:
Runway28L wrote:
CALTECH wrote:
# 297 went into AMA for new paint.........

About time. Saw it at PIT last week and that was the saddest looking B738 I’ve ever seen. Huge chunks of paint completely missing from the nose and both sides of the fuselage.

Presumably going to come out in the new livery?

Is it too soon to add a paint % progress chart to the first page of the thread? I know it seems like we just finished completion of the last one post-merger, and there's only a half-dozen planes so far, but that was really how this thread got started years ago.

May need a paint progress tally on the first page. I can provide ATCSundevil with the info if he's OK with it.

It took a while this afternoon, but I've got a new page/spreadsheet on Mainline paint progress. 2 tabs, one for Narrowbodies and one for Widebodies Available from home page of Fleet site "Globe Evolution Progress".

https://sites.google.com/site/unitedfle ... n-progress
 
cruiseshipcrew
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:20 am

KVH68 wrote:
Looks like the "Her Art Here" 757 will be unveiled at the United Family Day event on Sunday, October 13 at the United SFO maintenance base.


I completely forgot about these! :lol:
James - Road Warrior
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:24 am

VC10er wrote:

Hey Jayunited!

Is “United” really your family’s last name? Is it on your birth certificate? Lol

Well, I did know that there were new aircraft coming, I knew there were 789s, but somehow the number “19” escaped me! WOW! All together that really puts a hell of a lot of new United seats in the sky! I can see how many 763s would be freed up!
So, AA bit the bullet and is using the 788 to replace 763s, but isn’t even the 788 quite a bit bigger than a 763? (No need to bring up the 797, I get that issue!)
And when are all current 789’s due to be finished?
As for your comment regarding the speeding up of Polaris/PE on the UA788; there are just 12? (Right) Maybe because it’s a route opener, especially a long thin one, perhaps when they open destination X with the 788 (and first impressions being what they are) maybe it will give folks at destination X a good first impression? Because, just say destination X will mostly be Americans on board, if it is the only nonstop to the USA, perhaps UA would be selling seats to local destination Xers. Like selling seats to residents of Cape Town? I don’t know if Delta flies to Palermo, but if UA has the only nonstop to NYC, given the enormous Siciliano population in the NYC Metro, wouldn’t Sicilian families will fly UA? (unless it’s priced super high?)

Providing United doesn’t start diluting what they have thus far achieved (and at great cost), 10 years from now nobody will remember the “stay away if at all possible” years and seeing a UA tail or two or three at a major or medium major cities (eg: Zurich, Brussels, etc, etc, etc) could become synonymous with “great airline” Ex: Israel. All Israelis I know (which are many, and almost all gay men) they LUV LOVE UA! They think it’s a great airline, but they also appreciate their commitment to Tel Aviv with so many flights to the US.


No United isn't my last name I just work for United.
And I hope I haven't misled you UA is scheduled to take delivery of 19 additional 789 from January 2020 through 2022 so not all 19 of those frames will be in the fleet next year.
UA only has 12 788s in the fleet you are correct I'm just surprised by the aggressiveness of the revised Polaris/PE. The first 788 goes in this October the original schedule had a completion date of October 2020. The revised aggressive schedule is showing a completion date in May 2020. I guess with only 12 frames it is possible but I still doubt UA can hit that May target.

I'm not sure what roll the 788s will play in the future once the additional 19 789s are all in the fleet. I do know network planning is looking at other international destinations beyond what has already been announced. I don't know specifics I just know rumors that I hear at Willis none of which I'm not going to post right although I do have a posted wish list of international flights I'd like to see. But trust me there is more to come from UA in terms of connecting more hubs to already established international destinations in our network and there will be more all new destinations added to UA's network. UA still claims they will be done with Polaris/PE by 2021, personally I think and hope that come summer 2021 we will see a lot more exciting international destinations. I'm excited about the recent announcements but looking ahead to 2021 and 2022 I'm hoping some of the rumors I'm hearing/heard come truth.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:55 am

jayunited wrote:
I'm not sure what roll the 788s will play in the future once the additional 19 789s are all in the fleet. I do know network planning is looking at other international destinations beyond what has already been announced. I don't know specifics I just know rumors that I hear at Willis none of which I'm not going to post right although I do have a posted wish list of international flights I'd like to see. But trust me there is more to come from UA in terms of connecting more hubs to already established international destinations in our network and there will be more all new destinations added to UA's network. UA still claims they will be done with Polaris/PE by 2021, personally I think and hope that come summer 2021 we will see a lot more exciting international destinations. I'm excited about the recent announcements but looking ahead to 2021 and 2022 I'm hoping some of the rumors I'm hearing/heard come truth.


UA ought to consider getting more 788’s to replace their 763’s, with options to convert some to the MOM/797 if it comes to fruition. The 788’s have been great for them, especially in markets like DEN.

As far as network, I hope either UA or LH does BNA-FRA and you guys put a club down here........ but seriously, I’m looking forward to what’s next.
 
VC10er
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:45 am

jayunited wrote:
VC10er wrote:

Hey Jayunited!

Is “United” really your family’s last name? Is it on your birth certificate? Lol

Well, I did know that there were new aircraft coming, I knew there were 789s, but somehow the number “19” escaped me! WOW! All together that really puts a hell of a lot of new United seats in the sky! I can see how many 763s would be freed up!
So, AA bit the bullet and is using the 788 to replace 763s, but isn’t even the 788 quite a bit bigger than a 763? (No need to bring up the 797, I get that issue!)
And when are all current 789’s due to be finished?
As for your comment regarding the speeding up of Polaris/PE on the UA788; there are just 12? (Right) Maybe because it’s a route opener, especially a long thin one, perhaps when they open destination X with the 788 (and first impressions being what they are) maybe it will give folks at destination X a good first impression? Because, just say destination X will mostly be Americans on board, if it is the only nonstop to the USA, perhaps UA would be selling seats to local destination Xers. Like selling seats to residents of Cape Town? I don’t know if Delta flies to Palermo, but if UA has the only nonstop to NYC, given the enormous Siciliano population in the NYC Metro, wouldn’t Sicilian families will fly UA? (unless it’s priced super high?)

Providing United doesn’t start diluting what they have thus far achieved (and at great cost), 10 years from now nobody will remember the “stay away if at all possible” years and seeing a UA tail or two or three at a major or medium major cities (eg: Zurich, Brussels, etc, etc, etc) could become synonymous with “great airline” Ex: Israel. All Israelis I know (which are many, and almost all gay men) they LUV LOVE UA! They think it’s a great airline, but they also appreciate their commitment to Tel Aviv with so many flights to the US.


No United isn't my last name I just work for United.
And I hope I haven't misled you UA is scheduled to take delivery of 19 additional 789 from January 2020 through 2022 so not all 19 of those frames will be in the fleet next year.
UA only has 12 788s in the fleet you are correct I'm just surprised by the aggressiveness of the revised Polaris/PE. The first 788 goes in this October the original schedule had a completion date of October 2020. The revised aggressive schedule is showing a completion date in May 2020. I guess with only 12 frames it is possible but I still doubt UA can hit that May target.

I'm not sure what roll the 788s will play in the future once the additional 19 789s are all in the fleet. I do know network planning is looking at other international destinations beyond what has already been announced. I don't know specifics I just know rumors that I hear at Willis none of which I'm not going to post right although I do have a posted wish list of international flights I'd like to see. But trust me there is more to come from UA in terms of connecting more hubs to already established international destinations in our network and there will be more all new destinations added to UA's network. UA still claims they will be done with Polaris/PE by 2021, personally I think and hope that come summer 2021 we will see a lot more exciting international destinations. I'm excited about the recent announcements but looking ahead to 2021 and 2022 I'm hoping some of the rumors I'm hearing/heard come truth.


Hi Jayunited,

I’m pretty sure nobody’s last name is “United” but it would be fun to find out!

No, you didn’t mislead me... I thought the “additional” 789’s UA ordered didn’t total 19, and was surprised it was that many. I realized without knowing that they would trickle in over time.
I actually don’t know why the 788 are being pushed through so fast, although I’m certain there is a good explanation.
REALLY: that’s fine so long as there is a 789 next to each 788, even if it’s at a slower pace. When I think of flights like Singapore, Australia etc, I think about the huge gap in the Premium experience vs others being so huge with the Diamond seats, newer perhaps but really the same. And the general atmosphere is SO MUCH nicer in true Polaris. Although I’ve been flamed for this: the removal of the forward most bulkhead, sculpted and lit panel is penny wise and pound foolish. It went a LOOOOOOG WAY to making a bolder, branded look. It’s ultimate value long term is it subconsciously says “this is a full blown NEW UNITED (Polaris) and doesn’t shrink away from being proud of what UA has done. I’ve been told it won’t mean the difference of even 1 ticket sale. And that’s correct, the bulkhead alone won’t- EVERYTHING together will. Consumers have “Spidy Sense” especially after spending around $7-$12k, and there is a tipping point when enough stuff goes away, when the “Hmmm, the scoop of ice cream is not nearly as big as I remember?” and “where are those mints?” their inner, “cannot put a finger on it sense, but ‘skimping’ is the feeling” that is when people deplane and think “better than before, but for $10k, I’m going back to Qantas” happens.

People DO pick up on it. I do, but UA has life long shackles on me!

So Jayunited, what is the current 789 refurbishment schedule?

I can’t come up with more than 5 or 6 NEW viable destinations.

But I have already designed in my head the RETURN of best Transcontinental of anyone. I will never forget my very first ps flight! United must get top spot back, and current condition 752s are so far behind. (But they are not empty either!)

Have a good one! Richard Varig
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:27 am

calpsafltskeds wrote:
May need a paint progress tally on the first page. I can provide ATCSundevil with the info if he's OK with it.

Absolutely. Just send me the info and consider it done.
 
fun2fly
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:00 am

Jay - On the 788 refurbishment, my guess is that all flying units will be done by May with probably 2-3 frames in mod. It's feasible (45-60 days each) that you could cycle 9 units in between Oct to May (8 months) with 3 in mod in May. I applaud the quickness of the effort to get one fleet type completed to make the scheduling easier. The 789's will have a mixed bag for a bit, but less than a year which is completely acceptable, if not impressive. UA has tipped 50% of applicable w/b units with Polaris!

It will just be the 764's left in Q4 and those should be done in 2021 since there are only 16 units.
 
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cosyr
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:25 pm

VC10er wrote:
When I think of flights like Singapore, Australia etc, I think about the huge gap in the Premium experience vs others being so huge with the Diamond seats, newer perhaps but really the same. And the general atmosphere is SO MUCH nicer in true Polaris. Although I’ve been flamed for this: the removal of the forward most bulkhead, sculpted and lit panel is penny wise and pound foolish. It went a LOOOOOOG WAY to making a bolder, branded look. It’s ultimate value long term is it subconsciously says “this is a full blown NEW UNITED (Polaris) and doesn’t shrink away from being proud of what UA has done. I’ve been told it won’t mean the difference of even 1 ticket sale. And that’s correct, the bulkhead alone won’t- EVERYTHING together will. Consumers have “Spidy Sense” especially after spending around $7-$12k, and there is a tipping point when enough stuff goes away, when the “Hmmm, the scoop of ice cream is not nearly as big as I remember?” and “where are those mints?” their inner, “cannot put a finger on it sense, but ‘skimping’ is the feeling” that is when people deplane and think “better than before, but for $10k, I’m going back to Qantas” happens.

People DO pick up on it. I do, but UA has life long shackles on me!

I completely agree, and I was excited a few years ago, when UA first announced Polaris, and not just the seat, but everything that came with it. But I think UA did not do long enough term planning when they rolled it out, as to its sustainability. If they had thought it through, they probably could have forseen the things that ultimately got changed/cut, and they weren't cut for market economic reasons. Arguably the economy is stronger now than it was when Polaris was introduced, so what will happen when we have a recession and J demand is impacted?

UA really should have chosen their 'desired' improvements, and little by little added more to enhance the brand, rather than giving things and taking them away. Instead of improvement and continuously exceeding people's expectations, they are now regularly disappointing them.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:10 pm

OK, next question is where the 787s will get Polaris. I assume UA will stick with XMN and HKG for Polaris mods.

XMN currently doing only PW772s, (5 to go plus 1 in mod, avg 58.5 days)
HKG currently doing GE772s (14 to go plus 2 in mod, avg. 64 days) and 763 (11 to go plus 2 in mod, avg 55 days). Total 3 in mod, expect 4 next month. Looks like HKG is booked.

It would seem XMN would be the logical 787 mod site and makes sense to do entire 787 fleet there.
NOTE: Assume a second mod line of 772PW would start in Sep, 58 day average would complete the project no earlier than March. Could the 772PW mod line be moved to HKG?

Remember the first unit does an STC, that usually takes 90-120 days. Quickest was 772GE at 67 days. So it would seem if 788 units 2,3,4 entered about Nov 1st (STC expected end of Nov), it would take 45 days times 4 sets of aircraft, or 6 months - estimated completion would be some time in May, but we can usually expect slippage during the process. If the work is done in XMN there would be 2 772PW and 3 788s in mod and that doesn't count where the 789s would be.

In comparison, in Nov 2018 I show there were 3 772PWs in XMN and 2 763s in HKG. Jan 19 it was 4 mod lines at both XMN and HKG. wonder how many lines are possible at each station and if other airlines have similar work booked.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:27 pm

A note to users: information about the repaints has been added to the first page of this post. For now, it only contains a link to the applicable page on the United Fleet Site, but it will eventually contain more detailed information as more repaints occur.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
VC10er
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:19 pm

cosyr wrote:
VC10er wrote:
When I think of flights like Singapore, Australia etc, I think about the huge gap in the Premium experience vs others being so huge with the Diamond seats, newer perhaps but really the same. And the general atmosphere is SO MUCH nicer in true Polaris. Although I’ve been flamed for this: the removal of the forward most bulkhead, sculpted and lit panel is penny wise and pound foolish. It went a LOOOOOOG WAY to making a bolder, branded look. It’s ultimate value long term is it subconsciously says “this is a full blown NEW UNITED (Polaris) and doesn’t shrink away from being proud of what UA has done. I’ve been told it won’t mean the difference of even 1 ticket sale. And that’s correct, the bulkhead alone won’t- EVERYTHING together will. Consumers have “Spidy Sense” especially after spending around $7-$12k, and there is a tipping point when enough stuff goes away, when the “Hmmm, the scoop of ice cream is not nearly as big as I remember?” and “where are those mints?” their inner, “cannot put a finger on it sense, but ‘skimping’ is the feeling” that is when people deplane and think “better than before, but for $10k, I’m going back to Qantas” happens.

People DO pick up on it. I do, but UA has life long shackles on me!

I completely agree, and I was excited a few years ago, when UA first announced Polaris, and not just the seat, but everything that came with it. But I think UA did not do long enough term planning when they rolled it out, as to its sustainability. If they had thought it through, they probably could have forseen the things that ultimately got changed/cut, and they weren't cut for market economic reasons. Arguably the economy is stronger now than it was when Polaris was introduced, so what will happen when we have a recession and J demand is impacted?

UA really should have chosen their 'desired' improvements, and little by little added more to enhance the brand, rather than giving things and taking them away. Instead of improvement and continuously exceeding people's expectations, they are now regularly disappointing them.


I agree completely. So, I’m giving United the benefit of the doubt. At least for original UA folks, and the folks who loved CO, then it went down the toilet, NOW is the first time in many decades they got a CEO to get excited about. I know many UA people well. (Dated one once!) and Oscar does have the workforce energized.
I think that all the stuff at the initial introduction of Polaris was a product of simply being overzealous, and FINALLY a shot at not working for the airline “Americans loved to hate” (a headline I once read in the Asbury Park Press)

Finally a shot to fix UA with a giant overhaul. Then as they discovered that they took things a bit too far, they had to adjust and dial back. NOTHING stays still in aviation. Staying still is equal to moving backwards.
The latest announcements this year of new destinations is BIG news, awesome and very exciting news, along with Polaris Lounges winning big awards, and lots of brand new aircraft (77W, many 787s) and until the grounding 150 73MAX’s. Beautiful new design for United Clubs. Better customer service and reporting impressive numbers.

As for cost cutting (totally natural for a publicly traded company) HOWEVER, that is what must be done very carefully.

I don’t know anything about how much things cost in running an airline- especially a behemoth one. All I know is nothing is cheap.

REALLY: How much does 1 of those nice entry way signs cost per unit? How much does 1 weigh? When multiplied by the entire fleet, how much additional annual fuel? Same for the (IMHO) beautiful bulkhead seen on the 77W? How much does 1 unit cost?

I hope when they remove something, they add something. Perhaps removing the bulkhead allows them to spend a bit more elsewhere? If I knew that by removing the fancy bulkheads in Polaris somehow made the economy cabin a better experience- OK!

I can imagine seeing what the cost would be for the “full treatment” on all 757-2&3 being huge: new bins, new lighting and new bulkhead design, and weighing that against their usable age. But my first question would be (after hearing how many years of flying left, would be “so how many passengers will they fly before they die?”
If it’s in the millions, then that is just too many people experiencing a bad looking, bad “feeling” aircraft vs the upside of them thinking it’s a factory new aircraft! It would have a substantial positive impact on the United brand by millions of people.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
Boeing12345
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:41 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
OK, next question is where the 787s will get Polaris. I assume UA will stick with XMN and HKG for Polaris mods.

XMN currently doing only PW772s, (5 to go plus 1 in mod, avg 58.5 days)
HKG currently doing GE772s (14 to go plus 2 in mod, avg. 64 days) and 763 (11 to go plus 2 in mod, avg 55 days). Total 3 in mod, expect 4 next month. Looks like HKG is booked.

It would seem XMN would be the logical 787 mod site and makes sense to do entire 787 fleet there.
NOTE: Assume a second mod line of 772PW would start in Sep, 58 day average would complete the project no earlier than March. Could the 772PW mod line be moved to HKG?

Remember the first unit does an STC, that usually takes 90-120 days. Quickest was 772GE at 67 days. So it would seem if 788 units 2,3,4 entered about Nov 1st (STC expected end of Nov), it would take 45 days times 4 sets of aircraft, or 6 months - estimated completion would be some time in May, but we can usually expect slippage during the process. If the work is done in XMN there would be 2 772PW and 3 788s in mod and that doesn't count where the 789s would be.

In comparison, in Nov 2018 I show there were 3 772PWs in XMN and 2 763s in HKG. Jan 19 it was 4 mod lines at both XMN and HKG. wonder how many lines are possible at each station and if other airlines have similar work booked.



They are all scheduled for XMN, the 787-8 and the -9's. Mod span for the first -8 and -9 is 40 days, plus a 30 day STC hold for a total of 70 days. After that, each frame is scheduled to complete mod at 35 days.
 
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CALTECH
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:35 pm

codc10 wrote:
CALTECH wrote:
# 297 went into AMA for new paint.........

Can't remember if this was posted before, looks like 5 more 787-9s info....

Nose#......./Type......./MFG.S/N......./N Number/ ......Fuse #

TBD ..........787-9 .....66134 ............TBD ..................0960
TBD ..........787-9 .....66135 ............TBD ..................0970
TBD ..........787-9 .....66136 ............TBD ..................0974
TBD ..........787-9 .....66137 ............TBD ..................0986
TBD ..........787-9 .....66141 ............TBD ..................1004


Aren't those all existing (in-service) fuselage numbers? The MSNs look awfully high, too... aren't we still in the 40s?


Acft # 297 is getting new livery as will all future paints.

There are 25 787-9s in service, # 950- 974.
These 5 787-9s are going to be #975 - 979.

Month/Year of Mfg is not yet known.

#974 was mg s/n 40942 and fuselage # 0663.
#975 will be mfg s/n 66134 and fuselage # 0960.

These 5 787-9s are future units.

787-10s, 9 will be delivered by the end of 2019,

And some of 1010 - 1025 will be intermixed deliveries with 787-9s 975 - 979........
The gun is a precious Symbol of Freedom
Criminals are the deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence of tyrants who disarm their citizens
 
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CALTECH
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Re: United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:40 pm

Runway28L wrote:
CALTECH wrote:
# 297 went into AMA for new paint.........

About time. Saw it at PIT last week and that was the saddest looking B738 I’ve ever seen. Huge chunks of paint completely missing from the nose and both sides of the fuselage.


With the MAX groundings, paints were stopped. Now the paints will start up again as summer season ends, and the sad looking ones are scheduled to be repainted first in the new livery. There is a ranking level as to how bad the livery looks.
The gun is a precious Symbol of Freedom
Criminals are the deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence of tyrants who disarm their citizens

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