United Fleet/Network Thread - 2019

msp747 · Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:26 pm

cosyr wrote:
Evolution: First off, this means not a new logo, but it is possible it could be changed. Possibly removing the Gold, possibly making more 3D like AT&T did with their logo last decade. I would guess that the Gold will stay on the logo, but not on the fuselage. Also, I'm thinking the blue on the tail will change to a different shade, and that blue will make its way onto the fuselage. Whether they use more than one type of blue...or even the plum/purple...will be interesting.

I agree with you that the updated logo will probably look more 3D. I feel like a lot of the signage they are using inside airports, with the metallic 3D logo, looks better than what's on the plane. I also hope the new Polaris Blue color makes its way to the fuselage, replacing the gray. I think that would be a big improvement. Maybe it will start darker, then gradually change to the new purple?

The one thing I hope they don't do is what everyone seems to do now - an all white plane (or gray, in the case of AA) except for the very back, where the tail color has extended onto that part of the fuselage. I could see a design similar to AS, where they work in several colors in this section, but the plane is largely plain.

LAXintl · Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:29 pm

Crankyflier had podcast this week with Janet Lamkin the president of California for United.

A few interesting comments

o California a great market. Between creative/media economy in SoCal and tech sector in NorCal
o Califonia also means smaller markets like Central Valley. UA seeks to connect them to the world via LA/SF hubs
o UA wants more real estate (gates) at SFO
o Runway config and weather creates challenges
o Would like to grow more at SFO, and add more destinations - serving the biz traveler and bring tourism in.
o Working on "creative ways" to get passengers across the bay to SFO. (helicopters?)
o "Unique" hub & spoke approach at LAX.
o Not looking to add 10th flight in markets already flow by many others, instead looking at underserved market - esp ones that biz travelers have asked for. (LA-Madison Wis given as an example)
o While smaller international ops, LA customers looking internationally can reach anywhere via Star partners, or SFO hub.
o T-9 "moving forward", mayors office supportive. Closer integration with Star partners be a benefit
o Don't see CRJ550 on West Coast.
o West Coast small cities will see continued growth
o New United willing to try innovative things, but won't operate unprofitable flying

jetmatt777 · Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:43 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Updated livery coming in April

United Airlines will unveil an updated livery
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... eo-456444/

=

Link not valid, was the article pulled?

cosyr · Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:48 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Updated livery coming in April

United Airlines will unveil an updated livery
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... eo-456444/

=

Link not valid, was the article pulled?

Still works for me.

intotheair · Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:53 pm

As I said last week, the guidelines for the women's art project were a fairly strong indicator that a revised livery is coming. I think the billboard titles will look great.

These are the guidelines for the women's art project from UA's site:
https://hub.united.com/her-art-here/

Here's a mockup I made of what I have a hunch the livery might look like. My money is on no gold, more blue, billboard titles, and the same-ish globe.

jetmatt777 · Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:02 pm

I don’t think the globe will be the same. I’d expect the basic architecture of the globe, however fewer lines and several shades of blue (probably from the new color pallet)

intotheair · Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:05 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
I don’t think the globe will be the same. I’d expect the basic architecture of the globe, however fewer lines and several shades of blue (probably from the new color pallet)

Actually I think you might be right about that. I did think it was notable that the globe used on the new united.com homepage is the more simplified one that's typically only used for small space uses.

cosyr · Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:12 pm

intotheair wrote:
As I said last week, the guidelines for the women's art project were a fairly strong indicator that a revised livery is coming. I think the billboard titles will look great.

These are the guidelines for the women's art project from UA's site:
https://hub.united.com/her-art-here/

Here's a mockup I made of what I have a hunch the livery might look like. My money is on no gold, more blue, billboard titles, and the same-ish globe.

I think that looks good, and realistic. With whatever tweaks they would make to the globe, and we can only guess there, I bet you're not far off, unless they do go the AS route.

jetmatt777 · Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:23 pm

intotheair wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
I don’t think the globe will be the same. I’d expect the basic architecture of the globe, however fewer lines and several shades of blue (probably from the new color pallet)

Actually I think you might be right about that. I did think it was notable that the globe used on the new united.com homepage is the more simplified one that's typically only used for small space uses.

Something along these lines (sorry I’m on my phone, maybe someone can fine tune that idea in an actual editor with actual colors from the pallet)

jetblastdubai · Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:42 pm

fun2fly wrote:
Glad to see it will be here soon. Evolution vs. Revolution is an interesting comment.

The "evolution" versus "revolution" makes the transition from old to new smoother. Remember back when UA went to the battleship gray from the mostly white base? United had multi-colored planes floating around the system for years before each plane finally got the new paint job. There were some absolutely hideous planes in the system with the white fuselage but a battleship gray nose cone and or an engine cowling cover that didn't match the rest of the plane. Operationally it didn't make any difference but visually, it was painful to watch. Battleship gray to the Rising Blue scheme was equally as unappealing to go through.

It seems that UA has turned the operational corner and is headed for clearer skies now that most of the merger glitches are resolved. I'm confident that the evolution of the logo will be tasteful and bold.

janders · Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:44 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Crankyflier had podcast this week with Janet Lamkin the president of California for United.

A few interesting comments

o California a great market. Between creative/media economy in SoCal and tech sector in NorCal
o Califonia also means smaller markets like Central Valley. UA seeks to connect them to the world via LA/SF hubs
o UA wants more real estate (gates) at SFO
o Runway config and weather creates challenges
o Would like to grow more at SFO, and add more destinations - serving the biz traveler and bring tourism in.
o Working on "creative ways" to get passengers across the bay to SFO. (helicopters?)
o "Unique" hub & spoke approach at LAX.
o Not looking to add 10th flight in markets already flow by many others, instead looking at underserved market - esp ones that biz travelers have asked for. (LA-Madison Wis given as an example)
o While smaller international ops, LA customers looking internationally can reach anywhere via Star partners, or SFO hub.
o T-9 "moving forward", mayors office supportive. Closer integration with Star partners be a benefit
o Don't see CRJ550 on West Coast.
o West Coast small cities will see continued growth
o New United willing to try innovative things, but won't operate unprofitable flying

Thanks for the great summary.

SFO is probably stretched as far as it can go operationally with gates at the moment.

WIll be interesting to see how the chasing under radar routes at LAX goes.
T-9 will be interesting, especially if UA can collate with its Star partners.

BojamDelta · Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:50 pm

intotheair wrote:
As I said last week, the guidelines for the women's art project were a fairly strong indicator that a revised livery is coming. I think the billboard titles will look great.

These are the guidelines for the women's art project from UA's site:
https://hub.united.com/her-art-here/

Here's a mockup I made of what I have a hunch the livery might look like. My money is on no gold, more blue, billboard titles, and the same-ish globe.

Wow I posted in the 2 other threads about this that they should have done a combination of both liveries so
UA rising blue fuselage and CO Globe tail, that mock up looks great!!

bo)am

cosyr · Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:51 pm

janders wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Crankyflier had podcast this week with Janet Lamkin the president of California for United.

A few interesting comments

o California a great market. Between creative/media economy in SoCal and tech sector in NorCal
o Califonia also means smaller markets like Central Valley. UA seeks to connect them to the world via LA/SF hubs
o UA wants more real estate (gates) at SFO
o Runway config and weather creates challenges
o Would like to grow more at SFO, and add more destinations - serving the biz traveler and bring tourism in.
o Working on "creative ways" to get passengers across the bay to SFO. (helicopters?)
o "Unique" hub & spoke approach at LAX.
o Not looking to add 10th flight in markets already flow by many others, instead looking at underserved market - esp ones that biz travelers have asked for. (LA-Madison Wis given as an example)
o While smaller international ops, LA customers looking internationally can reach anywhere via Star partners, or SFO hub.
o T-9 "moving forward", mayors office supportive. Closer integration with Star partners be a benefit
o Don't see CRJ550 on West Coast.
o West Coast small cities will see continued growth
o New United willing to try innovative things, but won't operate unprofitable flying

Thanks for the great summary.

SFO is probably stretched as far as it can go operationally with gates at the moment.

WIll be interesting to see how the chasing under radar routes at LAX goes.
T-9 will be interesting, especially if UA can collate with its Star partners.

Not if more gates would allow UA to smooth out flights around peak times. I thought I saw a drawing once that suggested tearing down some hangers to the North end of F and extending those gates, plus maybe a remote commuter terminal, if I remember correctly. Those things could allow SFO to be more banked, for more connections, and planes can sit on the ground longer to fit into runway spacing as efficiently as possible. In other words, let the runways be the only constraint to planning.

intotheair · Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:56 pm

Haven't there been some rumblings about UA taking over some gates in T2 at SFO when the redeveloped T1 opens?

Nicknuzzii · Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:10 pm

For the "revised" livery I could easily see the new United color palette being showcased heavily throughout the design. The globe will stand as the main feature still but will be simplified. Fewer lines but filled with 'sky blue,' 'dusk,' and 'atlantic.' The tail and writing on the aircraft could be 'United blue.' Finally I could see them wanting to change the font for "United." It should be enlarged and in a similar font to Virgin Atlantic. Also the gray on the bottom will be Eliminated.

UPlog · Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:57 pm

As someone that hates to operate into SFO as a crew member, not sure cramming more flights in there is a good situation unless they are willing to forgo the big international hub connection bank. As is there are so many delays/misconnections, it will only get worse.

For LAX, UA will either turn out to be a genius by creating a niche in offering flights in underserved markets and avoiding more head on competition, or fall on their face as markets are not served for a reason.
Eventual T-9, will be something really good for UA, increasing the gate real estate and helping align closer to Star partners (esp the JV ones) aiding with connectivity and customer experience.

VC10er · Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:04 pm

Oh gosh...if it’s true, April is too soon.
Evolution vs Revolution is typical branding design jargon for “the same but a bit refreshed and less dated” vs “bold, new and disruptive: saying something completely new about the brand.
If it is a soft launch vs an unveiling, then my expectations are low for something that makes a statement.
One could call both Air France last update and Lufthansa “evolutions” - yet Lufthansa really created so much turmoil. When Air France added the teetie-weeny swoop at the bottom of the blue and red stripes, and the little “j” like symbol added to AIR FRANCE, I was astonished that they even mentioned it. It was SO NOTHING.
Revolution like IBERIA, from 70’s stripes and a royal wink to total orange and red boredom to say “hey we are just like all the others”
TAP: Bravo, that was a revolution that said TAP IS HERE TO STAY AND WE ARE COOLER THAN YOU THINK!

ord · Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:10 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
I don’t think the globe will be the same. I’d expect the basic architecture of the globe, however fewer lines and several shades of blue (probably from the new color pallet)

I seem to recall you mentioned about a year ago that you saw drafts of the new livery. Did what you see have billboard titles and a simplified globe on the tail?

calpsafltskeds · Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:17 am

Evolution maybe means the 56 aircraft pained in 2018 and 22 so far in 2018 will just need a touch-up.

Could gold be replaced with the new purple on the cheatline. That would be easy.

Post merger I believe it was found that doing touch-ups by patching United over the Continental name didn't work that well as jetblastdubai noted.
Of the two blue colors, one is lighter and one is darker. Maybe they'll just spray paint the word United on the side of the aircraft with a different blue.

The globe continues to state that United is the global airline. Probably any changes will it requires more work with most likely the entire tail being painted.

Please no blue nose, no blue bottom and no gradients.

intotheair · Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:45 am

Maybe the "new" logo is already among us...

So there have always been two versions of the globe logo for use going back to the CO days: one hi-res version and one low-res version for small print, embroidery, etc. etc. I thought the low res version was being used on the new united.com homepage that debuted a few months ago, but if you put the three side by side, notice how it's different.

UA has already redrawn the globe with fewer lines in it. I can't help but think that going forward, they'll use this redrawn globe for both hi-res and low-res applications, with "airplane livery" being in the hi-res category.

Coalways · Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:42 am

Any idea of the plane to be painted in April? New delivery? If so would it be spotted at Boeing field? Or current plane in fleet? Or any used airbus being delivered in April?

janders · Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:17 am

cosyr wrote:
Not if more gates would allow UA to smooth out flights around peak times. I thought I saw a drawing once that suggested tearing down some hangers to the North end of F and extending those gates, plus maybe a remote commuter terminal, if I remember correctly. Those things could allow SFO to be more banked, for more connections, and planes can sit on the ground longer to fit into runway spacing as efficiently as possible. In other words, let the runways be the only constraint to planning.

Those all sound like long terms projects. Not sure what the short/medium term options are.

Also not sure how much UA can really play with its banks due to the high percentage of single daily international flights without making connections less desirable if times are stretched out too much.

I believe someone (maybe LAXintl) had previously posted that SFO already had the highest misconnet rate of UA hubs so adding more flying into an already messy operation today will make things even worse.

RyanairGuru · Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:58 am

VC10er wrote:
Oh gosh...if it’s true, April is too soon.
Evolution vs Revolution is typical branding design jargon for “the same but a bit refreshed and less dated” vs “bold, new and disruptive: saying something completely new about the brand.
If it is a soft launch vs an unveiling, then my expectations are low for something that makes a statement.
One could call both Air France last update and Lufthansa “evolutions” - yet Lufthansa really created so much turmoil. When Air France added the teetie-weeny swoop at the bottom of the blue and red stripes, and the little “j” like symbol added to AIR FRANCE, I was astonished that they even mentioned it. It was SO NOTHING.
Revolution like IBERIA, from 70’s stripes and a royal wink to total orange and red boredom to say “hey we are just like all the others”
TAP: Bravo, that was a revolution that said TAP IS HERE TO STAY AND WE ARE COOLER THAN YOU THINK!

The last three Qantas liveries (1984, 2007, 2016) are IMHO how you do 'evolution' well. The basic concept is the same but each version brings a fresh perspective to the brand. Each version of the kangaroo says something slightly different, while maintaining the affinity and identify that the brand possesses. When you have a brand so strong a 'revolution' such that people cease to recognise it is not necessarily a good thing, but nor is letting your brand go stale.

VC10er · Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:54 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
VC10er wrote:
Oh gosh...if it’s true, April is too soon.
Evolution vs Revolution is typical branding design jargon for “the same but a bit refreshed and less dated” vs “bold, new and disruptive: saying something completely new about the brand.
If it is a soft launch vs an unveiling, then my expectations are low for something that makes a statement.
One could call both Air France last update and Lufthansa “evolutions” - yet Lufthansa really created so much turmoil. When Air France added the teetie-weeny swoop at the bottom of the blue and red stripes, and the little “j” like symbol added to AIR FRANCE, I was astonished that they even mentioned it. It was SO NOTHING.
Revolution like IBERIA, from 70’s stripes and a royal wink to total orange and red boredom to say “hey we are just like all the others”
TAP: Bravo, that was a revolution that said TAP IS HERE TO STAY AND WE ARE COOLER THAN YOU THINK!

The last three Qantas liveries (1984, 2007, 2016) are IMHO how you do 'evolution' well. The basic concept is the same but each version brings a fresh perspective to the brand. Each version of the kangaroo says something slightly different, while maintaining the affinity and identify that the brand possesses. When you have a brand so strong a 'revolution' such that people cease to recognise it is not necessarily a good thing, but nor is letting your brand go stale.

I basically agree. And QANTAS has done a good job at evolutionary refreshes

The thine for a wholesale change is often when certain situations call for it. One could be that there’s “nothing to lose” as so many things are bad including declining sales. Often then a new livery is too late, and a lie! Another could be when customer feedback says that the brand looks like an old airline from another era (like the 50’s), or if a major disconnect exists between stellar service and hard etc product, and the branding design doesn’t capture the experience at all.

IMHO United only requires a refresh to match how new and superior many parts of the experience are. Example: sit in a Polaris Lounge and look out the window at the aircraft: DISCONNECT! Now, not everyone flies Polaris or PE, in the back everything is pretty much the same. But as UA has made a firm commitment to the high paying business flier, the current livery is basically in line with Diamond BF than Polaris- which is why I personally think waiting until business fliers have a near 100% chance of getting a Polaris seat before signaling major change via identity (livery)
Then again, perhaps if they soft launch it, it will take many more years to repaint the fleet that refurbish it!

cosyr · Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:19 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
VC10er wrote:
Oh gosh...if it’s true, April is too soon.
Evolution vs Revolution is typical branding design jargon for “the same but a bit refreshed and less dated” vs “bold, new and disruptive: saying something completely new about the brand.
If it is a soft launch vs an unveiling, then my expectations are low for something that makes a statement.
One could call both Air France last update and Lufthansa “evolutions” - yet Lufthansa really created so much turmoil. When Air France added the teetie-weeny swoop at the bottom of the blue and red stripes, and the little “j” like symbol added to AIR FRANCE, I was astonished that they even mentioned it. It was SO NOTHING.
Revolution like IBERIA, from 70’s stripes and a royal wink to total orange and red boredom to say “hey we are just like all the others”
TAP: Bravo, that was a revolution that said TAP IS HERE TO STAY AND WE ARE COOLER THAN YOU THINK!

The last three Qantas liveries (1984, 2007, 2016) are IMHO how you do 'evolution' well. The basic concept is the same but each version brings a fresh perspective to the brand. Each version of the kangaroo says something slightly different, while maintaining the affinity and identify that the brand possesses. When you have a brand so strong a 'revolution' such that people cease to recognise it is not necessarily a good thing, but nor is letting your brand go stale.

Also interesting that you use QANTAS as an example, as they were another airline that used to use Gold, now they use silver...

GmoneyCO · Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:53 pm

763:
N666UA - Scheduled exit from HKG on 11-Mar/2777. --- This will be the first High-J 763.

gwrudolph · Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:58 pm

BojamDelta wrote:
intotheair wrote:
As I said last week, the guidelines for the women's art project were a fairly strong indicator that a revised livery is coming. I think the billboard titles will look great.

These are the guidelines for the women's art project from UA's site:
https://hub.united.com/her-art-here/

Here's a mockup I made of what I have a hunch the livery might look like. My money is on no gold, more blue, billboard titles, and the same-ish globe.

Wow I posted in the 2 other threads about this that they should have done a combination of both liveries so
UA rising blue fuselage and CO Globe tail, that mock up looks great!!

bo)am

This is cool and looks great. My only issue is the billboard logo. It looks great in a rendering, but when you actually put it on an airplane and you can see the window holes in the letters (like AA), it doesn't look good. Of course, they could paint the back side of the shades that cross the letters and request that the passengers at those seats keep them shut until the aircraft is at 10,000 feet :>) Just joking, of course!

gwrudolph · Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:01 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
Evolution maybe means the 56 aircraft pained in 2018 and 22 so far in 2018 will just need a touch-up.

Could gold be replaced with the new purple on the cheatline. That would be easy.

Post merger I believe it was found that doing touch-ups by patching United over the Continental name didn't work that well as jetblastdubai noted.
Of the two blue colors, one is lighter and one is darker. Maybe they'll just spray paint the word United on the side of the aircraft with a different blue.

The globe continues to state that United is the global airline. Probably any changes will it requires more work with most likely the entire tail being painted.

Please no blue nose, no blue bottom and no gradients.

Or a silver cheatline. Minor change that would probably look good and bring the branding scheme into the 21st Century.

LAXintl · Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:21 pm

janders wrote:

Also not sure how much UA can really play with its banks due to the high percentage of single daily international flights without making connections less desirable if times are stretched out too much.

I believe someone (maybe LAXintl) had previously posted that SFO already had the highest misconnet rate of UA hubs so adding more flying into an already messy operation today will make things even worse.

Unless UA seeks to break up some of the connectivity and turn SFO more into local O&D as they will be doing at EWR, there really is a limitation of what can be done today with existing gates and schedules that must connect within a commercially attractive timeframe.

Obviously, when things go wrong weather and ATC wise, the large number of regional flying gets hit card, along with shuttle like flying to SoCal and PNW which creates huge volumes of displaced passengers, which can be hard to reroute due low frequency of beyond international options.
For example, had a colleague misconnect from LAS to Asia, and essentially spent 12-hours at SFO until his rebooked flight on another carrier departed at midnight.

VC10er · Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:18 pm

intotheair wrote:
Maybe the "new" logo is already among us...

So there have always been two versions of the globe logo for use going back to the CO days: one hi-res version and one low-res version for small print, embroidery, etc. etc. I thought the low res version was being used on the new united.com homepage that debuted a few months ago, but if you put the three side by side, notice how it's different.

UA has already redrawn the globe with fewer lines in it. I can't help but think that going forward, they'll use this redrawn globe for both hi-res and low-res applications, with "airplane livery" being in the hi-res category.

I would be 100% sure that even when launched Lippincott would have provided both a Primary Globe and Small Usage Globe. Back then it would have been far less about resolution as it would be for reproduction at small sizes or 1 color: Ex Napkins to Embroidery. Today high and low res files would be required for digital purposes.
But even today, I’m sure the metal identity that’s embedded in the while laminate ticket counters with the white and chrome monitors would need a simplified version. In the guidelines manual it would clearly state the standards depending on what “whomever” was needing to use the identity and for what. Flexo plates 20 years ago were much more crude than today, so printing flexo with a small version on a napkin or vomit bag would surely get the less fussy version.
While I have NEVER been fond of the CO identity, I will say this in its favor: it is unique and it’s difficult to think of another major airline that looks like anything close to this UNITED branding. Unlike SO MANY THAT ARE SO ALIKE!

FlyHossD · Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:47 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Updated livery coming in April

United Airlines will unveil an updated livery
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... eo-456444/

=

Link not valid, was the article pulled?

Just worked for me. Maybe you could try again or use a different browser..?

jayunited · Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:27 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Unless UA seeks to break up some of the connectivity and turn SFO more into local O&D as they will be doing at EWR, there really is a limitation of what can be done today with existing gates and schedules that must connect within a commercially attractive timeframe.

Obviously, when things go wrong weather and ATC wise, the large number of regional flying gets hit card, along with shuttle like flying to SoCal and PNW which creates huge volumes of displaced passengers, which can be hard to reroute due low frequency of beyond international options.
For example, had a colleague misconnect from LAS to Asia, and essentially spent 12-hours at SFO until his rebooked flight on another carrier departed at midnight.

I agree I don't see how UA grows SFO any more than where we are today, SFO by all accounts is tapped out from 6 a.m. through 2p.m. they get a slight break from perhaps 2 p.m. till 6p.m. then the operation ramps back up through 1 a.m.. Without any additional gate space I don't see how UA can squeeze more flights into and out of SFO. Then like you pointed out there is the weather and ATC, in all my years of working for UA I'm not sure when was the last time that California had a winter like this one. California enter the winter season in a sever drought now by all accounts the drought is over but the result of all that rain and low laying clouds and fog has reeked havoc on UA's schedule out of SFO. Even though winter isn't over looking over some of the preliminary data SFO ranked worst than EWR and ORD in terms of on-time performance and completion factor. EWR is usually at the top of that list followed by ORD but this winter SFO is now our worst performer I hope UA is taking these factors into consideration I get UA wants to continue to grow but if you can't operated your current schedule reliably do to gate resources, mother nature and ATC perhaps its time to take a look at other airports and start growing there.

What I would love to see UA do in the Bay and surrounding areas is get back into OAK (domestically) offer more domestic flight options to SJC and SAC to relieve some of the domestic pressure UA now places on SFO.

calpsafltskeds · Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:26 pm

763:
N666UA - Sked to exit HKG 2777/10Mar. (delayed to 3/11, but still flight/date still holds - First High-J/PP 763.

RyanairGuru · Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:09 am

cosyr wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
VC10er wrote:
Oh gosh...if it’s true, April is too soon.
Evolution vs Revolution is typical branding design jargon for “the same but a bit refreshed and less dated” vs “bold, new and disruptive: saying something completely new about the brand.
If it is a soft launch vs an unveiling, then my expectations are low for something that makes a statement.
One could call both Air France last update and Lufthansa “evolutions” - yet Lufthansa really created so much turmoil. When Air France added the teetie-weeny swoop at the bottom of the blue and red stripes, and the little “j” like symbol added to AIR FRANCE, I was astonished that they even mentioned it. It was SO NOTHING.
Revolution like IBERIA, from 70’s stripes and a royal wink to total orange and red boredom to say “hey we are just like all the others”
TAP: Bravo, that was a revolution that said TAP IS HERE TO STAY AND WE ARE COOLER THAN YOU THINK!

The last three Qantas liveries (1984, 2007, 2016) are IMHO how you do 'evolution' well. The basic concept is the same but each version brings a fresh perspective to the brand. Each version of the kangaroo says something slightly different, while maintaining the affinity and identify that the brand possesses. When you have a brand so strong a 'revolution' such that people cease to recognise it is not necessarily a good thing, but nor is letting your brand go stale.

Also interesting that you use QANTAS as an example, as they were another airline that used to use Gold, now they use silver...

Good point, I hadn't considered that. What is also interesting is that between gold and silver they didn't use anything.

RyanairGuru · Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:17 am

VC10er wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
VC10er wrote:
Oh gosh...if it’s true, April is too soon.
Evolution vs Revolution is typical branding design jargon for “the same but a bit refreshed and less dated” vs “bold, new and disruptive: saying something completely new about the brand.
If it is a soft launch vs an unveiling, then my expectations are low for something that makes a statement.
One could call both Air France last update and Lufthansa “evolutions” - yet Lufthansa really created so much turmoil. When Air France added the teetie-weeny swoop at the bottom of the blue and red stripes, and the little “j” like symbol added to AIR FRANCE, I was astonished that they even mentioned it. It was SO NOTHING.
Revolution like IBERIA, from 70’s stripes and a royal wink to total orange and red boredom to say “hey we are just like all the others”
TAP: Bravo, that was a revolution that said TAP IS HERE TO STAY AND WE ARE COOLER THAN YOU THINK!

The last three Qantas liveries (1984, 2007, 2016) are IMHO how you do 'evolution' well. The basic concept is the same but each version brings a fresh perspective to the brand. Each version of the kangaroo says something slightly different, while maintaining the affinity and identify that the brand possesses. When you have a brand so strong a 'revolution' such that people cease to recognise it is not necessarily a good thing, but nor is letting your brand go stale.

I basically agree. And QANTAS has done a good job at evolutionary refreshes

The thine for a wholesale change is often when certain situations call for it. One could be that there’s “nothing to lose” as so many things are bad including declining sales. Often then a new livery is too late, and a lie! Another could be when customer feedback says that the brand looks like an old airline from another era (like the 50’s), or if a major disconnect exists between stellar service and hard etc product, and the branding design doesn’t capture the experience at all.

IMHO United only requires a refresh to match how new and superior many parts of the experience are. Example: sit in a Polaris Lounge and look out the window at the aircraft: DISCONNECT! Now, not everyone flies Polaris or PE, in the back everything is pretty much the same. But as UA has made a firm commitment to the high paying business flier, the current livery is basically in line with Diamond BF than Polaris- which is why I personally think waiting until business fliers have a near 100% chance of getting a Polaris seat before signaling major change via identity (livery)
Then again, perhaps if they soft launch it, it will take many more years to repaint the fleet that refurbish it!

I understand what you are saying, but I actually don't agree on the need to wait until Polaris roll outs are substantially complete to update their brand.

The first reason is pragmatic, it will take years to fully paint the fleet* (as the Polaris roll out has done) so you might as well make a start so that you can conceivably have a unified product offering by 2025.

The second is much more intangible. United has momentum right now. There is a new excitement in the air that hasn't been there since the merger (and arguably since before 9/11 and bankruptcy). The front line staff genuinely seem happier than they have in a long time, and the people that benefit from that the most are the paying customers. Now that the merger catastrophes are history, now is the time to create a new identity that unites the staff and helps keep this new-found energy rolling. Happy staff = happy customers.

*Especially if it is 'evoluntionary' I would expect that aircraft would be repainted in line with their standard repaint schedule instead of taking aircraft out of service to get them painted as quickly as possible.

VC10er · Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:43 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
VC10er wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:

The last three Qantas liveries (1984, 2007, 2016) are IMHO how you do 'evolution' well. The basic concept is the same but each version brings a fresh perspective to the brand. Each version of the kangaroo says something slightly different, while maintaining the affinity and identify that the brand possesses. When you have a brand so strong a 'revolution' such that people cease to recognise it is not necessarily a good thing, but nor is letting your brand go stale.

I basically agree. And QANTAS has done a good job at evolutionary refreshes

The thine for a wholesale change is often when certain situations call for it. One could be that there’s “nothing to lose” as so many things are bad including declining sales. Often then a new livery is too late, and a lie! Another could be when customer feedback says that the brand looks like an old airline from another era (like the 50’s), or if a major disconnect exists between stellar service and hard etc product, and the branding design doesn’t capture the experience at all.

IMHO United only requires a refresh to match how new and superior many parts of the experience are. Example: sit in a Polaris Lounge and look out the window at the aircraft: DISCONNECT! Now, not everyone flies Polaris or PE, in the back everything is pretty much the same. But as UA has made a firm commitment to the high paying business flier, the current livery is basically in line with Diamond BF than Polaris- which is why I personally think waiting until business fliers have a near 100% chance of getting a Polaris seat before signaling major change via identity (livery)
Then again, perhaps if they soft launch it, it will take many more years to repaint the fleet that refurbish it!

I understand what you are saying, but I actually don't agree on the need to wait until Polaris roll outs are substantially complete to update their brand.

The first reason is pragmatic, it will take years to fully paint the fleet* (as the Polaris roll out has done) so you might as well make a start so that you can conceivably have a unified product offering by 2025.

The second is much more intangible. United has momentum right now. There is a new excitement in the air that hasn't been there since the merger (and arguably since before 9/11 and bankruptcy). The front line staff genuinely seem happier than they have in a long time, and the people that benefit from that the most are the paying customers. Now that the merger catastrophes are history, now is the time to create a new identity that unites the staff and helps keep this new-found energy rolling. Happy staff = happy customers.

*Especially if it is 'evoluntionary' I would expect that aircraft would be repainted in line with their standard repaint schedule instead of taking aircraft out of service to get them painted as quickly as possible.

I can go with that logic PROVIDING it is truly an evolution and seems like another nice change like the new Lounges, gate areas and many new aircraft coming- hubs like EWR TC getting a huge, well done renovation. And if they don’t make a HUGE FUSS ABOUT IT LIKE WITH WATER CANNONS AND OSCAR RUNNING AROUND WITH CHAMPAGNE- NO!

intotheair · Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:13 am

FlightGlobal reports that United may add another 2-4 banks to IAD, citing success of the recent shift in some connecting traffic from EWR to IAD. A 6-8 bank schedule at IAD could mean 30 million passengers, which is the MWAA's threshold for when a new C/D concourse could be built:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -g-456479/

Ankit Gupta, vice-president of domestic network planning at the Chicago-based carrier, told investors at an Evercore conference during the week of 4 March that United is considering adding two to four new flight banks at Dulles – an increase that could amount to doubling its current four-bank schedule.

.....

[MWAA executive] Potter set a new goal for the airport, to handle 30 million annual passengers, before the authority will consider significant new capital investments. This includes the long sought by passengers replacement of "temporary" concourses C and D, which United has used for its hub since the 1980s.

The addition of more flight banks by United, let alone doubling the number it operates, would go a long way towards meeting Potter's 30 million passengers target for the airport.

aviator96 · Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:30 am

763: As of now, looks like N677UA will enter HKG UA2782 on 3/13.
772: N228UA sked to enter AMA UA2748 on 3/9.

jetmatt777 · Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:49 am

intotheair wrote:
FlightGlobal reports that United may add another 2-4 banks to IAD, citing success of the recent shift in some connecting traffic from EWR to IAD. A 6-8 bank schedule at IAD could mean 30 million passengers, which is the MWAA's threshold for when a new C/D concourse could be built:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -g-456479/

Ankit Gupta, vice-president of domestic network planning at the Chicago-based carrier, told investors at an Evercore conference during the week of 4 March that United is considering adding two to four new flight banks at Dulles – an increase that could amount to doubling its current four-bank schedule.

.....

[MWAA executive] Potter set a new goal for the airport, to handle 30 million annual passengers, before the authority will consider significant new capital investments. This includes the long sought by passengers replacement of "temporary" concourses C and D, which United has used for its hub since the 1980s.

The addition of more flight banks by United, let alone doubling the number it operates, would go a long way towards meeting Potter's 30 million passengers target for the airport.

Notice how United has promised growth at pretty much every hub? I feel they are purposefully muddying the waters so the competition doesn’t know exactly what to expect.

United doesn’t have the available aircraft time to grow SFO, DEN, ORD, IAD, and EWR. New aircraft are coming, but not at a breathtaking rate.

FlyHossD · Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:59 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
United doesn’t have the available aircraft time to grow SFO, DEN, ORD, IAD, and EWR. New aircraft are coming, but not at a breathtaking rate.

IIRC, UA has over 200 aircraft on order. Does anyone have a current breakdown of the deliveries by model and year? Seems like I last read 21 737-9Max and 10 787-10s this year - what about following years?

Nicknuzzii · Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:00 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
United doesn’t have the available aircraft time to grow SFO, DEN, ORD, IAD, and EWR. New aircraft are coming, but not at a breathtaking rate.

IIRC, UA has over 200 aircraft on order. Does anyone have a current breakdown of the deliveries by model and year? Seems like I last read 21 737-9Max and 10 787-10s this year - what about following years?

40 aircraft this year alone. I believe only 9 for retirement too, but please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think deliveries are going to slow down much next year though. We can see 2 77Ws, 787-9s and -10s, used a319s and 737 Max 9 and 10s. I'm not sure how much of each though. But I do know only 2 777s and 1? 787-10.

Nicknuzzii · Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:10 pm

Does anyone know why United has 2 flights operating from FRA- EWR and another two flights from MUC- EWR today? I thought both of these routes were once daily. Here are the flight numbers

FRA- EWR, UA 961, registration N66057
UA 83, registration N78004

MUC- EWR, UA 49, registration N2737U
UA 31, registration N646UA

guppyflyer · Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:45 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Does anyone know why United has 2 flights operating from FRA- EWR and another two flights from MUC- EWR today? I thought both of these routes were once daily. Here are the flight numbers

FRA- EWR, UA 961, registration N66057
UA 83, registration N78004

MUC- EWR, UA 49, registration N2737U
UA 31, registration N646UA

Fuel stops for US-India flights due to Indo-Pakistani "issues."

jayunited · Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:56 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Notice how United has promised growth at pretty much every hub? I feel they are purposefully muddying the waters so the competition doesn’t know exactly what to expect.

United doesn’t have the available aircraft time to grow SFO, DEN, ORD, IAD, and EWR. New aircraft are coming, but not at a breathtaking rate.

There is no muddying of waters this year alone UA and UAX will add a total of 65 aircraft, 40 are mainline and 25 will be E175s. These numbers are on top of the 28 mainline aircraft that were added to the fleet last year.
https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com ... leet-plan/

CALTECH · Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:23 pm

intotheair wrote:
As I said last week, the guidelines for the women's art project were a fairly strong indicator that a revised livery is coming. I think the billboard titles will look great.

These are the guidelines for the women's art project from UA's site:
https://hub.united.com/her-art-here/

Here's a mockup I made of what I have a hunch the livery might look like. My money is on no gold, more blue, billboard titles, and the same-ish globe.

That is a old concept. Though the chatter is that the gold might be gone.

Another 'old' concept....

CALTECH · Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:43 pm

jayunited wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
Notice how United has promised growth at pretty much every hub? I feel they are purposefully muddying the waters so the competition doesn’t know exactly what to expect.

United doesn’t have the available aircraft time to grow SFO, DEN, ORD, IAD, and EWR. New aircraft are coming, but not at a breathtaking rate.

There is no muddying of waters this year alone UA and UAX will add a total of 65 aircraft, 40 are mainline and 25 will be E175s. These numbers are on top of the 28 mainline aircraft that were added to the fleet last year.
https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com ... leet-plan/

Chatter was the number 48, though I heard 48 MAXs and 48 787s 2019, but I believe it had to be a total of 48 mainline 2019. Probably a misstatement.

More chatter, Airbus fleet is first to start retiring in the next 2-3 years. Used Airbuses are to retire some of the older ones while keeping the fleet for growth for now.

subUAL 757s will go, but the Rolls powered ones will stay for a while till the MAX10 takes over the 757 duties.

The MAX will be the future (but things could change). https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com ... max-9-ife/

The A350 has been kicked down the road, and will either be cancelled or ordered in a number around 75 to retire 777-200s. Feast or Famine.

With a livery refresh, this year is going to be interesting.

calpsafltskeds · Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:13 pm

39M:
N35713 frst revenue flight sked 1276/9Mar

772:
N782UA entered XMN 2737/23Feb (may have been posted already)

77W:
N2645U sked to exit SFO 58/10Mar, PE not shown on seat map yet
N2846U entered SFO 59/10Mar, potential PE mod

789:
N27965 sked to exit XMN maint 2751/10Mar

FlyHossD · Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:38 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
United doesn’t have the available aircraft time to grow SFO, DEN, ORD, IAD, and EWR. New aircraft are coming, but not at a breathtaking rate.

IIRC, UA has over 200 aircraft on order. Does anyone have a current breakdown of the deliveries by model and year? Seems like I last read 21 737-9Max and 10 787-10s this year - what about following years?

40 aircraft this year alone. I believe only 9 for retirement too, but please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think deliveries are going to slow down much next year though. We can see 2 77Ws, 787-9s and -10s, used a319s and 737 Max 9 and 10s. I'm not sure how much of each though. But I do know only 2 777s and 1? 787-10.

Thanks for the reply. I'd forgotten about the used Airbus' coming into the fleet, though I remember that 3 are being retired in 2019. Also, I believe that three 752PWs are being retired this year (to Fedex?).

Still, I'd like to see a plan for this year, 2020, 2021, etc. IIRC, UAL has about 770 aircraft in the mainline fleet with plans to grow that to 900-ish. So I'm just curious how long it will take to get there. My search for the fleet plan came up empty, but I'll look again.

jayunited · Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:05 pm

Just like DL's CEO, UA's CEO Oscar Munoz is asking Boeing to speed up its development of their proposed new mid-market aircraft. According to Flight Global at this weeks US Chamber of Commerce Aviation Summit Oscar stated he speaks with Boeing's CEO often over the proposed 797. According to the article Oscar is quoted as saying we (UA) need this aircraft and they (Boeing) make great airplanes, getting the aircraft in a shorter time frame would really help UA out. Even with all the pressure both DL and UA are placing on Boeing it seems as though Boeing is holding steadfast that a decision won't be made till 2020 and for now they still believe they can get it into service by 2025.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-456472/

VC10er · Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:07 am

Oh, PLEASE GOD, never Perpetua type ever again! It’s a terribly drawn typeface that was an unsuccessful attempt at something to replace Times Roman. UNITED (the word-mark) like it or not has been a bold San Serif almost forever (except for Battleship) where looking like Air Force One’s 744 was a misfire strategy by Wolfe to make United Airlines look more operationally perfect militarily style. (Out with Friendly!) While not unattractive when freshly painted, it WAS NOT aligned with the United brand essence and nothing else really changed - as in military style flawless operations.
Also, since the merger so much money, untold MILLIONS of dollars have been spent on permanent fixtures and signage using that (hand drawn) UNITED we see today, it would be absolutely crazy wasteful to change signage all over the USA and the world. I’m certain that they can do an amazing job with an evolutionary livery design and save hundreds of millions of dollars and not have to change the embedded “word-mark”

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