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atcsundevil
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Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:03 am

Please continue from the previous discussion.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1383559
 
seanpmassey
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:22 pm

Austin-Strabel (GRB) just posted that there is an announcement today at 11:30 AM. Is this possibly new service? Or something else?
 
jplatts
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:34 pm

seanpmassey wrote:
Austin-Strabel (GRB) just posted that there is an announcement today at 11:30 AM. Is this possibly new service? Or something else?


I think that today's announcement might be (a) AA adding GRB-DFW nonstop service, (b) UA adding GRB-DEN and/or GRB-IAD nonstop service, or (c) G4 re-entering GRB.
 
TYSflyer
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:43 pm

seanpmassey wrote:
Austin-Strabel (GRB) just posted that there is an announcement today at 11:30 AM. Is this possibly new service? Or something else?

GRB is listed as a destination on F9 website. I think this is new for GRB. I honestly cannot keep track of F9 anymore.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:35 pm

It is Frontier to Denver. $49 one way introductory fare.

https://www.facebook.com/austinstraubelairport
 
seanpmassey
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:48 pm

It's good to see F9 back in Green Bay. If I remember correctly, they did GRB-Den for a short time after Midwest was acquired while winding down a lot of Midwest's operations in Milwaukee. But I don't think that route lasted very long.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:00 pm

Flights are seasonal and start 23rd May.
Departs DEN 2:11pm, arrives GRB 5:24pm; departs GRB 6:19pm, arrives back in DEN 7:52pm.
Interesting they're summer seasonal - so no ski trips for me on F9! Maybe in time they'll be year-round.

https://news.flyfrontier.com/frontier-a ... to-denver/
 
FRAborn
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:10 pm

I flew into MKE on WN the other day for the first time in nearly 3 years. I can't believe how old, dingy and depressing the main terminal area looks. I've flown into D once before and it too was unbelievable. C looked amazingly. It was bright, clean and didn't look as if you were stepping into 1989. I have family on the other side of the state and in Texas so i normally fly AA FRA-DFW-MSN at least once a month. The difference between both airports is incredibly different. Do any folks more intuned to MKE know why the officials there havent tried to make the airport more.....appealing? Please don't take this as a giant dis towards the MKE area because I love the city, especially how downtown has changed over the last few years.
 
evank516
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:35 pm

Since November I've flown into 3 WI airports: MSN, LSE, and MKE in that order. CWA is on my list in April, and I may end up at ATW this fall. By the way, fares from LGA-CWA via DTW are unbelievable. They keep trying to push me through MSP but that's so out of the way! I just got back from MKE and it's a decent airport if you ask me. Looking forward to the new DTW-LSE flight starting soon. I'll be back there in December.
 
FRAborn
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:50 pm

evank516 wrote:
Since November I've flown into 3 WI airports: MSN, LSE, and MKE in that order. CWA is on my list in April, and I may end up at ATW this fall. By the way, fares from LGA-CWA via DTW are unbelievable. They keep trying to push me through MSP but that's so out of the way! I just got back from MKE and it's a decent airport if you ask me. Looking forward to the new DTW-LSE flight starting soon. I'll be back there in December.


I'm still praying for AA to launch DFW-LSE :lol: 8-)
 
evank516
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:56 pm

FRAborn wrote:
evank516 wrote:
Since November I've flown into 3 WI airports: MSN, LSE, and MKE in that order. CWA is on my list in April, and I may end up at ATW this fall. By the way, fares from LGA-CWA via DTW are unbelievable. They keep trying to push me through MSP but that's so out of the way! I just got back from MKE and it's a decent airport if you ask me. Looking forward to the new DTW-LSE flight starting soon. I'll be back there in December.


I'm still praying for AA to launch DFW-LSE :lol: 8-)


I LOVED the convenience of LSE. It actually makes flying on a CRJ worth the trouble :lol:
 
Grandforks12
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:38 pm

I'm flying into LSE for the first time on Thursdayc can't wait!
 
UWPAviation
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:48 pm

FRAborn wrote:
I flew into MKE on WN the other day for the first time in nearly 3 years. I can't believe how old, dingy and depressing the main terminal area looks. I've flown into D once before and it too was unbelievable. C looked amazingly. It was bright, clean and didn't look as if you were stepping into 1989. I have family on the other side of the state and in Texas so i normally fly AA FRA-DFW-MSN at least once a month. The difference between both airports is incredibly different. Do any folks more intuned to MKE know why the officials there havent tried to make the airport more.....appealing? Please don't take this as a giant dis towards the MKE area because I love the city, especially how downtown has changed over the last few years.


I fly MKE all the time. Its a complaint I have, the main terminal area is so outdated. C is in fantastic shape. I think they have to keep C looking good since its the busiest terminal in the state with WN. D is just old. Hasn't been touched since Midwest. I dont think DL, F9, AA, G4, and AS care. The updating of terminal E has been needed more then anything. Actually having a dedicated Intl terminal is long over-due. If you've ever gone threw the international arrivals terminal its shocking how old it is. Straight up 1970's.

They re-did the baggage claim not too far back and thats fantastic. Slowly but surely they are getting to it. Biggest problem is just money. MKE county is broke. And with all the other issues in the county spending millions on the airport isn't practical. Especially when most WI residents and Chicagoan's that use it just are happy about how easy and cheap it is compared to ORD or MDW.
 
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knope2001
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:02 am

MKE put out a request for proposals (RFP) in early 2017 for a main terminal remodel/reconfiguration which would include a single consolidated security checkpoint and reworked retail / food / services both centrally and into the concourses. The only bid received was deemed unacceptable -- I think this is back out to bid. This project would bring a significant, overdue refresh to the terminal.

There are also plans on the horizon for ticketing refresh / improvements.

Funding for E has been budgeted and planing is in the works with demo/construction targeted early next year. The new E will have international arrivals and departures facilities but be able to serve domestic as well.

As for the concourses themselves, C was rebuilt just over 10 years ago, but D's expansion is nearly 30 years. Incremental improvements have been made to D including recent reconfiguration of the D "stem" to have three all-purpose jetway gates in place of the hodgepodge of legacy gates not usable by many aircraft types due to jetway type or being too close together. Some vendor improvements have come in recent years as well, but I don't think a D refresh is high on the list.

As for C versus D they are nearly equal in passenger traffic -- C about 53% and D about 47%. It's not a matter of keeping the busiest concourse better looking, rather it's that C was rebuilt to be a modern facility just over 10 years ago. D is 50+ year old stem rebuilt when the hammerhead was built nearly 30 years ago. It shows its age.


Biggest problem is just money. MKE county is broke. And with all the other issues in the county spending millions on the airport isn't practical. Especially when most WI residents and Chicagoan's that use it just are happy about how easy and cheap it is compared to ORD or MDW.


Actually it's not a matter of tight county funds. The airport projects are broadly funded by user fees like most airports, so it's not a matter of money either going for potholes or for airport improvements. However because the airport is under full county control it is subject to political infighting and grandstanding, plus local government often moves painfully slowly. Among other things there was a tussle over E because the county executive trumpeted the new international E project to the media with himself as the champion, or at least political adversaries on the county board perceived it that way. And so there was quite a bit of gear-grinding which wasted time.
 
FRAborn
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:51 am

knope2001 wrote:
MKE put out a request for proposals (RFP) in early 2017 for a main terminal remodel/reconfiguration which would include a single consolidated security checkpoint and reworked retail / food / services both centrally and into the concourses. The only bid received was deemed unacceptable -- I think this is back out to bid. This project would bring a significant, overdue refresh to the terminal.

There are also plans on the horizon for ticketing refresh / improvements.

Funding for E has been budgeted and planing is in the works with demo/construction targeted early next year. The new E will have international arrivals and departures facilities but be able to serve domestic as well.

As for the concourses themselves, C was rebuilt just over 10 years ago, but D's expansion is nearly 30 years. Incremental improvements have been made to D including recent reconfiguration of the D "stem" to have three all-purpose jetway gates in place of the hodgepodge of legacy gates not usable by many aircraft types due to jetway type or being too close together. Some vendor improvements have come in recent years as well, but I don't think a D refresh is high on the list.

As for C versus D they are nearly equal in passenger traffic -- C about 53% and D about 47%. It's not a matter of keeping the busiest concourse better looking, rather it's that C was rebuilt to be a modern facility just over 10 years ago. D is 50+ year old stem rebuilt when the hammerhead was built nearly 30 years ago. It shows its age.


Biggest problem is just money. MKE county is broke. And with all the other issues in the county spending millions on the airport isn't practical. Especially when most WI residents and Chicagoan's that use it just are happy about how easy and cheap it is compared to ORD or MDW.


Actually it's not a matter of tight county funds. The airport projects are broadly funded by user fees like most airports, so it's not a matter of money either going for potholes or for airport improvements. However because the airport is under full county control it is subject to political infighting and grandstanding, plus local government often moves painfully slowly. Among other things there was a tussle over E because the county executive trumpeted the new international E project to the media with himself as the champion, or at least political adversaries on the county board perceived it that way. And so there was quite a bit of gear-grinding which wasted time.


Thanks Knope, once again you provide an outstanding amount of knowledge. I figured MKE had money since they spent God knows how much on a Streetcar line thats as long as a football field. I did notice the bag claim was updated as another user posted. If you have any pull, arange a non-stop to Germany from E when its complete ;).

UWPaviation I haven't had the luxury of using the IAB, but I'll take your word for it!

Speaking of other WI airports, are there any capacity increases in the works for LSE or CWA? LSE's renovated terminal looks amazing.
 
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knope2001
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:22 pm

FRAborn wrote:
Thanks Knope, once again you provide an outstanding amount of knowledge. I figured MKE had money since they spent God knows how much on a Streetcar line thats as long as a football field. I did notice the bag claim was updated as another user posted. If you have any pull, arange a non-stop to Germany from E when its complete ;).


LOL I wish I had such powers! As far as money goes it's certainly not that anybody is flush with cash, but various monies and funding sources come with strings and limitations. The streetcar (which is the City of Milwaukee rather than Milwaukee County) was largely paid for by a big federal grant for mass transit awarded in the 90's and fought about for years since. Other streetcar funding comes from TIF Tax Incremental Financing from increased property values along the streetcar route, money which wouldn't go to the airport even if they were in the same governmental authority. I'm oversimplifying of course, but while money is always a challenge sometimes the gummy, politicized wheels of government are just as much the issue. For the most part I think everything seriously decided upon at MKE ends up happening eventually, but pretty much never as fast as one might like it to. MKE is functionally a great airport in many aspects but from the passenger's perspective some key areas would benefit from a refresh if not a rework.
 
jplatts
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:23 pm

Even though WN already has seasonal nonstop service to SFO from MKE, the lack of UA MKE-SFO nonstop service is a huge hole.

There was an average of 462 passengers traveling between the San Francisco Bay Area and MKE in Q2 2018, and there is more than enough demand for UA nonstop service to SFO from MKE on at least a seasonal basis with the demand exceeding the capacity available on the WN MKE-SFO nonstops during the summer travel season.

There is also likely enough demand for year-round daily nonstop service to SFO from MKE with the amount of passengers who travel between MKE and the San Francisco Bay Area.

Will UA ever add MKE-SFO nonstop service?
 
TheKennady2
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:36 pm

jplatts wrote:
Even though WN already has seasonal nonstop service to SFO from MKE, the lack of UA MKE-SFO nonstop service is a huge hole.

There was an average of 462 passengers traveling between the San Francisco Bay Area and MKE in Q2 2018, and there is more than enough demand for UA nonstop service to SFO from MKE on at least a seasonal basis with the demand exceeding the capacity available on the WN MKE-SFO nonstops during the summer travel season.

There is also likely enough demand for year-round daily nonstop service to SFO from MKE with the amount of passengers who travel between MKE and the San Francisco Bay Area.

Will UA ever add MKE-SFO nonstop service?



It Likely is not a priority since ORD is so close and im Sure DL handles some of that traffic through MSP. DEN also can provide connections on F9 and UA.
 
seanpmassey
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:27 am

jplatts wrote:
Even though WN already has seasonal nonstop service to SFO from MKE, the lack of UA MKE-SFO nonstop service is a huge hole.

There was an average of 462 passengers traveling between the San Francisco Bay Area and MKE in Q2 2018, and there is more than enough demand for UA nonstop service to SFO from MKE on at least a seasonal basis with the demand exceeding the capacity available on the WN MKE-SFO nonstops during the summer travel season.

There is also likely enough demand for year-round daily nonstop service to SFO from MKE with the amount of passengers who travel between MKE and the San Francisco Bay Area.

Will UA ever add MKE-SFO nonstop service?


I think there are two things that factor against UA adding a daily MKE-SFO.

First is MKE's proximity to O'Hare. It's only about two hours down the road. The second is that MSN started a daily non-stop to SFO a few months ago. That service is currently on a regional jet, but I'd think that UA would upgauge the MSN service before adding a new route between SFO and MKE.
 
jplatts
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:20 am

TheKennady2 wrote:
It Likely is not a priority since ORD is so close and im Sure DL handles some of that traffic through MSP. DEN also can provide connections on F9 and UA.


seanpmassey wrote:
I think there are two things that factor against UA adding a daily MKE-SFO.

First is MKE's proximity to O'Hare. It's only about two hours down the road. The second is that MSN started a daily non-stop to SFO a few months ago. That service is currently on a regional jet, but I'd think that UA would upgauge the MSN service before adding a new route between SFO and MKE.


While I agree that MKE is close to ORD, MKE is likely far enough from ORD and MSN to support nonstop service to SFO on UA.

UA already serves SFO nonstop from both AUS and SAT, and the distance between AUS and SAT is approximately the same distance as that between MKE and ORD. UA had also started nonstop service to SFO from CVG and DTW in the Midwest back in June 2017, and UA will be starting CMH-SFO nonstop service in June 2019.

There are some destinations in the Asia-Pacific region that UA serves nonstop from SFO that aren't served nonstop from ORD or DEN on UA such as CTU, MEL, KIX, PPT, SIN, and SYD. UA also only serves RDD in California nonstop from its SFO hub. UA adding MKE-SFO nonstop service would allow for easier access to international destinations in the Asia-Pacific region from MKE and vice versa.

I think that UA adding MKE-SFO nonstop service will probably happen at some point since (a) UA has added nonstop service to additional Midwestern cities from SFO during the last 2 years, (b) MKE is one of the top domestic destinations traveled to from SFO that UA doesn't currently serve nonstop from SFO, and (c) SFO is a major hub for UA.
 
wildwobby
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:58 am

I noticed delta is sending 757s DTW-MSN since the beginning of the month. It arrives at night (DAL 2080), and leaves in the morning (DAL 2091). Pretty impressive, in my opinion, for MSN.

Also seems like an odd route for a 757, being so short, but I assume Delta really needs the morning capacity out of Madison!
A319 A320 A321 A380 B712 B733 B735 B736 B737 B738 B739 B752 B753 B763 B772 B77W B788 CONC CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9 DC10 E120 E145 F100 MD80 MD83 MD88 MD90
 
rj777
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:50 am

I wonder if since the DNC is going to be in Milwaukee next year... will we see some 767s come in? If we do, I'm gonna miss out on seeing them since I'm moving to Omaha this fall.
 
9w748capt
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:02 am

wildwobby wrote:
I noticed delta is sending 757s DTW-MSN since the beginning of the month. It arrives at night (DAL 2080), and leaves in the morning (DAL 2091). Pretty impressive, in my opinion, for MSN.

Also seems like an odd route for a 757, being so short, but I assume Delta really needs the morning capacity out of Madison!


NW flew the 757s all over the midwest. I flew MKE-MSP multiple times on a 757. Wasn't unusual at all back in the day.
 
commpilot
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:45 am

wildwobby wrote:
I noticed delta is sending 757s DTW-MSN since the beginning of the month. It arrives at night (DAL 2080), and leaves in the morning (DAL 2091). Pretty impressive, in my opinion, for MSN.

Also seems like an odd route for a 757, being so short, but I assume Delta really needs the morning capacity out of Madison!


I am surprised Delta hasn't used the 757 into Madison more often. The company Epic has a travel contract with them for their software and training staff. 100s of their employees fly around every week. There are few other huge companies out there that also probably travel a lot.
 
plinth857
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:05 pm

rj777 wrote:
I wonder if since the DNC is going to be in Milwaukee next year... will we see some 767s come in? If we do, I'm gonna miss out on seeing them since I'm moving to Omaha this fall.


When the RNC was in Cleveland in 2016, we didn't see many (if any) widebodies, to my recollection. But the frequency of flights was much greater. Hope for a World Series with the Brewers instead... the World Series brought lots of additional activities, including several chartered widebody flights!
 
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knope2001
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:55 pm

rj777 wrote:
I wonder if since the DNC is going to be in Milwaukee next year... will we see some 767s come in? If we do, I'm gonna miss out on seeing them since I'm moving to Omaha this fall.


I'd guess MKE will see some definite flight schedule changes around the DNC convention time but not necessarily much in the way of widebodies. Comparing Cleveland July 2016 (RNC in Cleveland) versus June and August, stats for July were only a tad up in terms of flights and passengers, both scheduled and nonscheduled. CLE saw a few non-scheduled widebody arrivals in July but it's hard to know if any of them were specific to the convention. Sports team activities are often responsible for charters in pro-sports-team airports. I don't know that any MLB teams travel on widebody aircraft but in August there were some which pretty clearly were NFL teams using CLE.

CLE is a notch bigger airport than MKE so Cleveland may have been able to absorb the convention traffic better on their scheduled flights, plus there's activity generated outside of (especially prior to) the convention dates. Yesterday it was reported that the DNC has rented Milwaukee's convention complex starting in early-mid June all the way through a week after the convention ends. No word yet how long Fiserv Forum (the new arena, not part of the convention center complex itself) is locked down by the DNC ahead of the event itself but likely a number of weeks ahead as well. Should the Bucks be in the NBA finals next year that could mean Fiserv Forum is in use for basketball into mid June, but other than that I'd guess nobody else gets the arena from early June until late July. The setup and coordination of the event will have out-of-towners in and out of MKE steadily in the weeks ahead of the convention, but likely not in numbers to add flights. More likely I'd expect a few upgraded aircraft in summer 2020. Right around the time of the convention we will probably see some added frequencies, possibly a few one-off flights or major upgrades on key dates. But probably nothing broader than that.

What could offset or otherwise spread out some of the DNC 2020 impact is downward pressure on other demand. To the extent MKE has a tourism-destination season it's mid June until mid August. Some of that normal traffic bubble will be displaced around DNC time as people stay away from the congestion. Summerfest will still happen as normal (ending several days before DNC starts) and probably not be affected, but the annual Northwest Mutual Life convention of 10k attendees will likely have to move from their usual spot (which would be right after the DNC in 2020). By the time EAA happens in late July MKE should be back to normal for those who fly here commercially. But with so much booked up already it will be harder to have your wedding in July, harder to host a family reunion in July, tougher for relatives to visit in July, etc.

My guess is that MKE's numbers will see definite benefit from the DNC but it won't all be concentrated over the convention week alone. Some of the benefit will come in the weeks prior to the convention for preparation, and others will spill into June and August with displaced July demand,
 
77H
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:37 am

UA’s LAX-MSN service started yesterday 31Mar. Checked the loads over the next week and found that through the first week, LAX-MSN is booked full most days but MSN-LAX is wide open. Hopefully we see things pick up in the weeks to come. This flight was announced a while ago, I would have thought advanced bookings would have been stronger.

77H
 
UWPAviation
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:53 am

Does anyone know why WN dropped MKE-MSP? Yields not well? Kind of disappointing, DL is crazy round trip to fly compared to what it was on WN.

I’d love to see that route return!
 
DXTraveler
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:35 am

I would love to see additional DCA/IAD - MKE non-stop service. Nothing against WN. But sometimes their departure/arrival times blow, and if you wait too long, flights are sold out.
 
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knope2001
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:55 pm

UWPAviation wrote:
Does anyone know why WN dropped MKE-MSP? Yields not well? Kind of disappointing, DL is crazy round trip to fly compared to what it was on WN.

I’d love to see that route return!


It was a horrible performer, a holdover from the AirTran days which did not work in the Southwest model.

AirTran's MSP-MKE fed a banked hub in Milwaukee and they served mostly connections and thru. AirTran frequently had only 15-20 local Milwaukee passengers onboard those MSP-MKE flights and most of the time the average fare was under a hundred bucks. The flights routinely had 70-90 people connecting beyond the Milwaukee hub, so the loads on the 117-seat 717 were good. It's not clear how well that connecting traffic did in yield though it likely was on the marginal side at best.

When Southwest took over the banked hub ended and connections in MKE were much more incidental. Southwest did increase the number of local passengers and the average fare quite a bit but never to the point of sustainability. Southwest got more like 30-45 local passengers per flight and average fares were getting more in the $150 range, but with far fewer connecting passengers and bigger planes to fill the flights ran half empty or more much of the time. When they ended in November 2017 the average load for the year up to that point was 46.7%. Even for a route with strong local revenue that load factor would probably need to be 15 or more points higher before one could even try to make a plausible argument it was breaking even with a straight face. MKE-MSP won't be coming back.
 
rainaviation2
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue May 21, 2019 10:04 pm

Good to see... SY will continue service from MSN this winter with twice weekly service to RSW and TPA. They released their winter schedule out to April today.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu May 23, 2019 11:52 am

Frontier starts seasonal DEN<>GRB today with A320 service on Sun/Tues/Thurs.
Hopefully does well enough so that some day it will be year-round. Would be handy to access the CO slopes from NE WI in winter
 
dirtymillennial
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri May 24, 2019 4:21 pm

Some random MSN observations:

  • AA is introducing mainline service on the first DFW-MSN flight of the day, using a A319. This appears to be a permanent change starting in September.
  • UA has 2x frequency on MSN-SFO for August, involving a SFO-MSN red-eye. Still using a a E75 for both legs.
  • UA then goes mainline on MSN-SFO for the month of October, using a A319.
  • One-offs for Epic's UGM conference seems to be at an all time high. Seeing the following additional destinations on August 29th:
    DL: SEA, BOS, RDU, CMH, CVG, LAX, BNA
    UA: CLE. IAH, BOS, IAD
    AA: BOS, LAX, DCA, PHX, LGA
 
UWPAviation
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri May 24, 2019 4:58 pm

dirtymillennial wrote:
Some random MSN observations:

  • AA is introducing mainline service on the first DFW-MSN flight of the day, using a A319. This appears to be a permanent change starting in September.
  • UA has 2x frequency on MSN-SFO for August, involving a SFO-MSN red-eye. Still using a a E75 for both legs.
  • UA then goes mainline on MSN-SFO for the month of October, using a A319.
  • One-offs for Epic's UGM conference seems to be at an all time high. Seeing the following additional destinations on August 29th:
    DL: SEA, BOS, RDU, CMH, CVG, LAX, BNA
    UA: CLE. IAH, BOS, IAD
    AA: BOS, LAX, DCA, PHX, LGA


Awesome for MSN. Still wish MKE could get regular service to SFO or the Bay Area in general. That and south Florida are the biggest holes out of MKE
 
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knope2001
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Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:44 am

Way overdue in posting 2018 results at Wisconsin airports, but here they are.

Milwaukee
7,096,714 +2.8%

Madison
2,109,927 +11.0%

Appleton
694,360 +23.5%

Green Bay
634,277 +11.7%

Wausau/Central Wisconsin
247,598 +6.4%

LaCrosse
197,069 +10.1%

Rhinelander
48,030 +3.5%

Eau Claire
47,095 +1.3%

Milwaukee broke 7 million for the first time in the post-hub era. Madison broke 2 million for the first time in history. Appleton's 23.5% jump put them solidy into third place ahed of Green Bay which itself grew 11.7%. GRB and ATW have been pretty equal in recent years, with ATW pulling ahead. Perhaps GRB's getting Frontier this year will bring the two closer again.

Actual passenger increase:
.....209.064 MSN
.....192,044 MKE (local trafic only + 226,858)
.....132,320 ATW
.......66,248 GRB
.......18,124 LSE
.......14,812 CWA
.........1,609 RHI
............591 EAU

Madison's saw a larger raw increase of passengers than Milwaukee, 209.064 vs 192,044. However if you just look at the local traffic (and exluded connections) MKE's local traffic increased 226,858. So while Madison saw a much larger percentge increase in 2018 than Milwaukee, the actual demand increase was not too different in count. Madison a notch larger in total passengers, Milwaukee a notch larger if you look at local numbers (without any connecting flow). Conections were 1.2% of Mliwaukee's total traffis in 2017, down from 1.8% in 2017 after peaking at nearly 25% in the peak hub dogfight years 2010/2011.

It will be interesting to see if 2019 holds increases anywhere near what 2018 saw, espcially in MSN, ATW and GRB.
 
seanpmassey
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon May 23, 2016 3:22 pm

Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:29 pm

knope2001 wrote:
Way overdue in posting 2018 results at Wisconsin airports, but here they are.

Milwaukee
7,096,714 +2.8%

Madison
2,109,927 +11.0%

Appleton
694,360 +23.5%

Green Bay
634,277 +11.7%

<snip>

Milwaukee broke 7 million for the first time in the post-hub era. Madison broke 2 million for the first time in history. Appleton's 23.5% jump put them solidy into third place ahed of Green Bay which itself grew 11.7%. GRB and ATW have been pretty equal in recent years, with ATW pulling ahead. Perhaps GRB's getting Frontier this year will bring the two closer again.


Green Bay and Appleton have about 1.3 million passengers combined between them. Not bad for two airports that are about 30 miles apart. Hopefully this leads to more service options beyond Frontier.
 
User avatar
yeogeo
Posts: 1170
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:47 pm

Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:16 pm

Bahamasair has announced two MKE-Nassau charter flights in November.



https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-20190725
 
tys777
Moderator
Posts: 413
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:43 am

Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:22 pm

knope2001 wrote:
Way overdue in posting 2018 results at Wisconsin airports, but here they are.

Milwaukee
7,096,714 +2.8%

Madison
2,109,927 +11.0%

Appleton
694,360 +23.5%

Green Bay
634,277 +11.7%

Wausau/Central Wisconsin
247,598 +6.4%

LaCrosse
197,069 +10.1%

Rhinelander
48,030 +3.5%

Eau Claire
47,095 +1.3%

Milwaukee broke 7 million for the first time in the post-hub era. Madison broke 2 million for the first time in history. Appleton's 23.5% jump put them solidy into third place ahed of Green Bay which itself grew 11.7%. GRB and ATW have been pretty equal in recent years, with ATW pulling ahead. Perhaps GRB's getting Frontier this year will bring the two closer again.

Actual passenger increase:
.....209.064 MSN
.....192,044 MKE (local trafic only + 226,858)
.....132,320 ATW
.......66,248 GRB
.......18,124 LSE
.......14,812 CWA
.........1,609 RHI
............591 EAU

Madison's saw a larger raw increase of passengers than Milwaukee, 209.064 vs 192,044. However if you just look at the local traffic (and exluded connections) MKE's local traffic increased 226,858. So while Madison saw a much larger percentge increase in 2018 than Milwaukee, the actual demand increase was not too different in count. Madison a notch larger in total passengers, Milwaukee a notch larger if you look at local numbers (without any connecting flow). Conections were 1.2% of Mliwaukee's total traffis in 2017, down from 1.8% in 2017 after peaking at nearly 25% in the peak hub dogfight years 2010/2011.

It will be interesting to see if 2019 holds increases anywhere near what 2018 saw, espcially in MSN, ATW and GRB.


Honestly, I'm surprised to see any growth at EAU. It's a tough little airport to be successful at with MSP to the west, MSN to the east, and even DLH to the north. Been years since I flew through there on my yearly Menards trip, but I always enjoyed the place. Without Menards, there would be very little movements overall at the airport.

Anyone know the local opinion about UA service to ORD?
 
NWAESC
Posts: 994
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:04 pm

Yearly Menards trip?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
tys777
Moderator
Posts: 413
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:43 am

Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:36 pm

NWAESC wrote:
Yearly Menards trip?


Worked in managerment for them in a previous life. They bring all their store management staff in yearly for 2-day seminars. Most get driven in, but if you work in one of the far reaching stores, you get a jet ride in. One year my flight home was EAU-Watertown-Aberdeen-Bismarck.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 994
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:36 pm

Ah gotcha! For some reason, I was thinking you were going as a shopper...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
77H
Posts: 1432
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:20 am

tys777 wrote:
knope2001 wrote:
Way overdue in posting 2018 results at Wisconsin airports, but here they are.

Milwaukee
7,096,714 +2.8%

Madison
2,109,927 +11.0%

Appleton
694,360 +23.5%

Green Bay
634,277 +11.7%

Wausau/Central Wisconsin
247,598 +6.4%

LaCrosse
197,069 +10.1%

Rhinelander
48,030 +3.5%

Eau Claire
47,095 +1.3%

Milwaukee broke 7 million for the first time in the post-hub era. Madison broke 2 million for the first time in history. Appleton's 23.5% jump put them solidy into third place ahed of Green Bay which itself grew 11.7%. GRB and ATW have been pretty equal in recent years, with ATW pulling ahead. Perhaps GRB's getting Frontier this year will bring the two closer again.

Actual passenger increase:
.....209.064 MSN
.....192,044 MKE (local trafic only + 226,858)
.....132,320 ATW
.......66,248 GRB
.......18,124 LSE
.......14,812 CWA
.........1,609 RHI
............591 EAU

Madison's saw a larger raw increase of passengers than Milwaukee, 209.064 vs 192,044. However if you just look at the local traffic (and exluded connections) MKE's local traffic increased 226,858. So while Madison saw a much larger percentge increase in 2018 than Milwaukee, the actual demand increase was not too different in count. Madison a notch larger in total passengers, Milwaukee a notch larger if you look at local numbers (without any connecting flow). Conections were 1.2% of Mliwaukee's total traffis in 2017, down from 1.8% in 2017 after peaking at nearly 25% in the peak hub dogfight years 2010/2011.

It will be interesting to see if 2019 holds increases anywhere near what 2018 saw, espcially in MSN, ATW and GRB.


Honestly, I'm surprised to see any growth at EAU. It's a tough little airport to be successful at with MSP to the west, MSN to the east, and even DLH to the north. Been years since I flew through there on my yearly Menards trip, but I always enjoyed the place. Without Menards, there would be very little movements overall at the airport.

Anyone know the local opinion about UA service to ORD?


I’m not all that surprised. If memory serves, EAU started out as a subsidized route for UA (OO) who ultimately kept it on after the subsidies ended which would seem to indicate there is enough demand for the flight to stand on its own.

As far as marketshare bleed to other airports, It’s a 2h45m drive southeast to MSN, 2h25m drive to DLH. That’s a long drive to go to an airport that will likely necessitate you connecting at a hub anyway. You’d be better off driving 1h40m to CWA.
EAU’s UA service allows you to fly into their largest hub and out to destination. MSP on the other hand is only 1hr30m from EAU which is likely why there is no service on DL.

77H
 
tys777
Moderator
Posts: 413
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:43 am

Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:30 pm

77H wrote:
tys777 wrote:
knope2001 wrote:
Way overdue in posting 2018 results at Wisconsin airports, but here they are.

Milwaukee
7,096,714 +2.8%

Madison
2,109,927 +11.0%

Appleton
694,360 +23.5%

Green Bay
634,277 +11.7%

Wausau/Central Wisconsin
247,598 +6.4%

LaCrosse
197,069 +10.1%

Rhinelander
48,030 +3.5%

Eau Claire
47,095 +1.3%

Milwaukee broke 7 million for the first time in the post-hub era. Madison broke 2 million for the first time in history. Appleton's 23.5% jump put them solidy into third place ahed of Green Bay which itself grew 11.7%. GRB and ATW have been pretty equal in recent years, with ATW pulling ahead. Perhaps GRB's getting Frontier this year will bring the two closer again.

Actual passenger increase:
.....209.064 MSN
.....192,044 MKE (local trafic only + 226,858)
.....132,320 ATW
.......66,248 GRB
.......18,124 LSE
.......14,812 CWA
.........1,609 RHI
............591 EAU

Madison's saw a larger raw increase of passengers than Milwaukee, 209.064 vs 192,044. However if you just look at the local traffic (and exluded connections) MKE's local traffic increased 226,858. So while Madison saw a much larger percentge increase in 2018 than Milwaukee, the actual demand increase was not too different in count. Madison a notch larger in total passengers, Milwaukee a notch larger if you look at local numbers (without any connecting flow). Conections were 1.2% of Mliwaukee's total traffis in 2017, down from 1.8% in 2017 after peaking at nearly 25% in the peak hub dogfight years 2010/2011.

It will be interesting to see if 2019 holds increases anywhere near what 2018 saw, espcially in MSN, ATW and GRB.


Honestly, I'm surprised to see any growth at EAU. It's a tough little airport to be successful at with MSP to the west, MSN to the east, and even DLH to the north. Been years since I flew through there on my yearly Menards trip, but I always enjoyed the place. Without Menards, there would be very little movements overall at the airport.

Anyone know the local opinion about UA service to ORD?


I’m not all that surprised. If memory serves, EAU started out as a subsidized route for UA (OO) who ultimately kept it on after the subsidies ended which would seem to indicate there is enough demand for the flight to stand on its own.

As far as marketshare bleed to other airports, It’s a 2h45m drive southeast to MSN, 2h25m drive to DLH. That’s a long drive to go to an airport that will likely necessitate you connecting at a hub anyway. You’d be better off driving 1h40m to CWA.
EAU’s UA service allows you to fly into their largest hub and out to destination. MSP on the other hand is only 1hr30m from EAU which is likely why there is no service on DL.

77H


Oh no, my main point was that once you get a hour or so away from EAU, you have much better options.

For some reason I thought EAU was still a EAS route, glad to hear it is surviving without the subsidies.
 
User avatar
knope2001
Posts: 2918
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:54 am

Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:26 pm

tys777 wrote:
77H wrote:
tys777 wrote:

Honestly, I'm surprised to see any growth at EAU. It's a tough little airport to be successful at with MSP to the west, MSN to the east, and even DLH to the north. Been years since I flew through there on my yearly Menards trip, but I always enjoyed the place. Without Menards, there would be very little movements overall at the airport.

Anyone know the local opinion about UA service to ORD?


I’m not all that surprised. If memory serves, EAU started out as a subsidized route for UA (OO) who ultimately kept it on after the subsidies ended which would seem to indicate there is enough demand for the flight to stand on its own.

As far as marketshare bleed to other airports, It’s a 2h45m drive southeast to MSN, 2h25m drive to DLH. That’s a long drive to go to an airport that will likely necessitate you connecting at a hub anyway. You’d be better off driving 1h40m to CWA.
EAU’s UA service allows you to fly into their largest hub and out to destination. MSP on the other hand is only 1hr30m from EAU which is likely why there is no service on DL.

77H


Oh no, my main point was that once you get a hour or so away from EAU, you have much better options.

For some reason I thought EAU was still a EAS route, glad to hear it is surviving without the subsidies.


Actually EAU is indeed a subsidized market under EAS. Among the range of EAS markets Eau Claire is toward the higher end of passengers / lower end of per-passenger subsidy, but it's not one I would say is on the brink of "graduating out" of EAS to unsubsidized service the way a few have including Joplin, Manhattan, Columbia, and Sioux City.
 
kiowa
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:45 pm

UWPAviation wrote:
dirtymillennial wrote:
Some random MSN observations:

  • AA is introducing mainline service on the first DFW-MSN flight of the day, using a A319. This appears to be a permanent change starting in September.
  • UA has 2x frequency on MSN-SFO for August, involving a SFO-MSN red-eye. Still using a a E75 for both legs.
  • UA then goes mainline on MSN-SFO for the month of October, using a A319.
  • One-offs for Epic's UGM conference seems to be at an all time high. Seeing the following additional destinations on August 29th:
    DL: SEA, BOS, RDU, CMH, CVG, LAX, BNA
    UA: CLE. IAH, BOS, IAD
    AA: BOS, LAX, DCA, PHX, LGA


Awesome for MSN. Still wish MKE could get regular service to SFO or the Bay Area in general. That and south Florida are the biggest holes out of MKE


I agree, some quality service out of MKE to most popular destinations would be grand. But Midwest Express has left the building-----------
 
77H
Posts: 1432
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:00 am

knope2001 wrote:
tys777 wrote:
77H wrote:

I’m not all that surprised. If memory serves, EAU started out as a subsidized route for UA (OO) who ultimately kept it on after the subsidies ended which would seem to indicate there is enough demand for the flight to stand on its own.

As far as marketshare bleed to other airports, It’s a 2h45m drive southeast to MSN, 2h25m drive to DLH. That’s a long drive to go to an airport that will likely necessitate you connecting at a hub anyway. You’d be better off driving 1h40m to CWA.
EAU’s UA service allows you to fly into their largest hub and out to destination. MSP on the other hand is only 1hr30m from EAU which is likely why there is no service on DL.

77H


Oh no, my main point was that once you get a hour or so away from EAU, you have much better options.

For some reason I thought EAU was still a EAS route, glad to hear it is surviving without the subsidies.


Actually EAU is indeed a subsidized market under EAS. Among the range of EAS markets Eau Claire is toward the higher end of passengers / lower end of per-passenger subsidy, but it's not one I would say is on the brink of "graduating out" of EAS to unsubsidized service the way a few have including Joplin, Manhattan, Columbia, and Sioux City.


Thanks for clearing that up. I could have sworn a while back that pax numbers and yield was at a sustainable enough level that the subsidies ended.

77H
 
jplatts
Posts: 2639
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:13 pm

WN has announced in today's schedule extension that it is going to be permanently discontinuing MKE-BOS nonstop service after January 5th, and WN also announced that MKE-LAX is going to be reduced to seasonal nonstop service after January 5th.
 
evank516
Posts: 1943
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: Wisconsin Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:37 pm

Trying to fly to MSN in November via DTW, over $1,000 round trip. Robbery. Anyways, I heard something about CWA getting new jetways installed?

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