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Dieuwer
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:46 pm

So we live in the 21st century and a little bit of rain shuts down numerous airports? Seriously??
Pathetic.
 
AviationAddict
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:52 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
So we live in the 21st century and a little bit of rain shuts down numerous airports? Seriously??
Pathetic.


Are you really serious? How many times have we seen planes skid off wet runways due to hydroplaning or poor braking conditions? Wind shear, downdrafts, lightning...if you want to go stand outside during a storm like we had yesterday be my guest but as someone who has worked on the ramp in the past, I can tell you from personal experience closing the airports and diverting traffic was a no brainer.
 
twicearound
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:53 pm

Interesting article in The Globe yesterday about the DL expansion. Two things that stuck out to me: It's now reconfirmed that DL will take all of A by September, and by 2021 will have 200 daily departures. They're really taking the gloves off with B6.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/20 ... story.html
 
PVDspotting
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:54 pm

swinch wrote:
Someone I know who works at Icelandair said that it was was a total of 11 diversions!

Makes sense. I was on BA215 LHR-BOS, we arrived on time but sat a little over an hour on taxiway M for KLM to push off E12. The captain stated there were multiple diversions to BOS that made things a mess.
 
EK77WNH
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:29 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
So we live in the 21st century and a little bit of rain shuts down numerous airports? Seriously??
Pathetic.


I don't know for sure, but maybe there were wind shear circumstances included with the 'little bit of rain.'
Next Trip:
JAL 7-8 BOS-NRT-BOS, 787-9
September
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:39 pm

twicearound wrote:
Interesting article in The Globe yesterday about the DL expansion. Two things that stuck out to me: It's now reconfirmed that DL will take all of A by September, and by 2021 will have 200 daily departures. They're really taking the gloves off with B6.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/20 ... story.html


Also looks like BOS-ICN will be going daily in 2020.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
iyerhari
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:41 pm

twicearound wrote:
Interesting article in The Globe yesterday about the DL expansion. Two things that stuck out to me: It's now reconfirmed that DL will take all of A by September, and by 2021 will have 200 daily departures. They're really taking the gloves off with B6.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/20 ... story.html

Thank you. I read the article too and a couple of other points that stuck:

1. DL has finally overtaken AA at BOS although B6 will always have the head start (31% market share vs. 19%). It just shows how fragmented the BOS market is and IMO we have discussed this so many times in this forum, this has always been the case with Logan.
2. Quarterly revenue in Boston rose 25 percent, year over year, leading Delta’s system
3. Is it important to be the number one carrier, in terms of market share, in Boston?

It’s not important to be No. 1, Hauenstein responded. It’s important to be the most profitable, he said, and the most loved.
 
EK77WNH
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:48 pm

I'm wondering whether Boston will suffer all that much when a recession hits? I just get the sense that the drivers for economic growth and stability are more broad and rock-solid than they were, say, in 2008-2009. What do you guys think? I'm figuring DL thinks as much, that BOS can weather the storm quite well.
Next Trip:
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VS4ever
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:53 pm

iyerhari wrote:
twicearound wrote:
Interesting article in The Globe yesterday about the DL expansion. Two things that stuck out to me: It's now reconfirmed that DL will take all of A by September, and by 2021 will have 200 daily departures. They're really taking the gloves off with B6.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/20 ... story.html

Thank you. I read the article too and a couple of other points that stuck:

1. DL has finally overtaken AA at BOS although B6 will always have the head start (31% market share vs. 19%). It just shows how fragmented the BOS market is and IMO we have discussed this so many times in this forum, this has always been the case with Logan.
2. Quarterly revenue in Boston rose 25 percent, year over year, leading Delta’s system
3. Is it important to be the number one carrier, in terms of market share, in Boston?

It’s not important to be No. 1, Hauenstein responded. It’s important to be the most profitable, he said, and the most loved.


Interesting, however there's another point.. if DL are at 111 and they count their international partners in the 140, who on earth is flying 29 flights a day?

2 VS
2 AF
1 KL (not even daily)
1 KE (not even daily)
3 WS - YYZ

So that's 9, what am I missing here? and I will be happily corrected as my brain function is not 100% with it this morning if it's something obvious.

and the other question is, is the 200 based off the 111 or the 140, if it's the 140, then an additional 60 flights may be doable if they have the 5 gates at 10 turns and move some of the TATL stuff to E, which would free up the spots for the remaining 10.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
FGITD
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:09 pm

PVDspotting wrote:
swinch wrote:
Someone I know who works at Icelandair said that it was was a total of 11 diversions!

Makes sense. I was on BA215 LHR-BOS, we arrived on time but sat a little over an hour on taxiway M for KLM to push off E12. The captain stated there were multiple diversions to BOS that made things a mess.


actually you were waiting for KLM to push from E5, but they had some sort of issue with ground equipment, so BA215 became a "first gate available" flight. Plus naturally BA is plenty happy to go to 12 whenever possible.

Also in regards to the 21st century comment...we all love getting the flights out on time, but also love getting home every night. Your bag or tight connection isn't worth people getting injured.
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:54 pm

adamh8297 wrote:
twicearound wrote:
Interesting article in The Globe yesterday about the DL expansion. Two things that stuck out to me: It's now reconfirmed that DL will take all of A by September, and by 2021 will have 200 daily departures. They're really taking the gloves off with B6.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/20 ... story.html


Also looks like BOS-ICN will be going daily in 2020.


Wonder if the expansion referenced on KE is about the flight going daily or possibly an upgauge to a 77W or 748i. Dare we even think about a possible 4th A380 operator coming to town?? 8-)
 
jworks158
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:01 pm

FGITD wrote:
Regarding buses...really not that big a deal. To drive from E to A or vice versa, there's no need for ATC clearance or any outside communication. Just follow the signs and remember planes have the right of way. With that said, there's no bus lanes, and you're always at the mercy of aircraft arriving or departing from gates. Terminal C in particular can be a long ride. As can the taxiway E/K crossing by terminal B.

Maybe stuff pax into the catering trucks, they're already traversing the airfield all day anyway. And they can lift right up to the door of the airplane.


I mean at that point they should just get the mobile lounges that IAD, and PHL are using.
(A359,A343/A346,A332,A319/320/321,A220-100)(B788,B772,B762,B752,B744/B748,B732/B737/B738,B717)(E190,E145)(CRJ100/200, Dash 8-200)(MD-83)
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pitbosflyer
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:02 pm

iyerhari wrote:
2. Quarterly revenue in Boston rose 25 percent, year over year, leading Delta’s system


Interesting considering so many people have been posting the DL flight loads and predicting doom and gloom for the "new Boston hub." DL is extremely good at making money, I think they are in BOS for the long haul. They have shown they are willing to burn money in the short term for a later pay off. All though it seems so far revenue hasn't been a problem.
 
jworks158
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:10 pm

FGITD wrote:
swinch wrote:
Someone I know who works at Icelandair said that it was was a total of 11 diversions!


Sounds about right.

There were a few BAs, Norwegian, EVA, Air France, and at least a few others from the domestics. Not sure who got out vs cancelled though. Arriving during the nighttime rush is complicated. A lot of airlines and ground handlers simply don't have the staff to handle their own flights+ diversions.

Mixed with the earlier thunderstorm that closed things down for awhile...it got messy last night.


Tom Podolec reported that a KE A380 was headed for BOS but then turned around and went to YYZ
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B752OS
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:15 pm

EK77WNH wrote:
I'm wondering whether Boston will suffer all that much when a recession hits? I just get the sense that the drivers for economic growth and stability are more broad and rock-solid than they were, say, in 2008-2009. What do you guys think? I'm figuring DL thinks as much, that BOS can weather the storm quite well.


I don't think any city and metro area is immune to an economic downturn. But Boston did fare better than most cities back in 2008 and 2009 and that's thanks in large part to the makeup of this region's economy - finance, high tech, bio tech, healthcare and education. If we do have a downturn (who really knows when it will happen?) I am sure you will see some airlines pull back a bit. Europe especially - right now Boston and a number of other US cities, are a bit over-served to Europe.
 
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tlecam
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:54 pm

pitbosflyer wrote:
iyerhari wrote:
2. Quarterly revenue in Boston rose 25 percent, year over year, leading Delta’s system


Interesting considering so many people have been posting the DL flight loads and predicting doom and gloom for the "new Boston hub." DL is extremely good at making money, I think they are in BOS for the long haul. They have shown they are willing to burn money in the short term for a later pay off. All though it seems so far revenue hasn't been a problem.


Also interesting in the context that revenue grew 25% while capacity grew 18%. That is a trend heading in the right direction and yields should improve if the trend continues.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:25 pm

B752OS wrote:
EK77WNH wrote:
I'm wondering whether Boston will suffer all that much when a recession hits? I just get the sense that the drivers for economic growth and stability are more broad and rock-solid than they were, say, in 2008-2009. What do you guys think? I'm figuring DL thinks as much, that BOS can weather the storm quite well.


I don't think any city and metro area is immune to an economic downturn. But Boston did fare better than most cities back in 2008 and 2009 and that's thanks in large part to the makeup of this region's economy - finance, high tech, bio tech, healthcare and education. If we do have a downturn (who really knows when it will happen?) I am sure you will see some airlines pull back a bit. Europe especially - right now Boston and a number of other US cities, are a bit over-served to Europe.


The thinner routes will be gone no doubt. Looking back at the numbers 2008 dropped 7% over 2007 and 2009 another 2% on top of that.
I suspect given the growth since that point we would still see something of that magnitude. So about 4,000,000 would be lost.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
tphuang
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:28 pm

pitbosflyer wrote:
iyerhari wrote:
2. Quarterly revenue in Boston rose 25 percent, year over year, leading Delta’s system


Interesting considering so many people have been posting the DL flight loads and predicting doom and gloom for the "new Boston hub." DL is extremely good at making money, I think they are in BOS for the long haul. They have shown they are willing to burn money in the short term for a later pay off. All though it seems so far revenue hasn't been a problem.

I don't know if that's a shot at me, but I am simply posting what the number shows.

Keep in mind, they have added a lot of short range stuff on regional jet, which generally have higher cost and higher revenue per asm. It would be really surprising if revenue is not growing faster than capacity with that type of adds.

I have not seen any evidence they have gained in pricing power out of Boston. Their performance on routes like sfo pit and buf which have been around for 3 years have basically been pretty stable.

Also keep in mind that Delta has gotten a lot more profitable at NYC in the past two years, which gives them plenty of cash to build up new stations if they wish to do so.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:24 pm

Will SAS return next year? It seems they had some trouble filling planes, even in summer.
 
iyerhari
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:47 pm

tphuang wrote:
I don't know if that's a shot at me, but I am simply posting what the number shows.

Keep in mind, they have added a lot of short range stuff on regional jet, which generally have higher cost and higher revenue per asm. It would be really surprising if revenue is not growing faster than capacity with that type of adds.

I have not seen any evidence they have gained in pricing power out of Boston. Their performance on routes like sfo pit and buf which have been around for 3 years have basically been pretty stable.

Also keep in mind that Delta has gotten a lot more profitable at NYC in the past two years, which gives them plenty of cash to build up new stations if they wish to do so.

But isn't DL also introducing TATL flights that maybe a good sell? They do very well with their fortress hubs - i do not have the details like the way you or VS4ever has, they may not be just adding flights to lose revenue.
 
Abeam79
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:07 pm

Just FYI, 25% increase in revenue doesn’t translate to success, Norwegian was increasing tatl revenues by 48% and they were always in the red. Revenues going up is correlated with putting more tickets to sell with the increasing flights, doesn’t mean they are making money in their Boston system, but nonetheless the revenues environment for delta in Boston doesn’t look that great at all with the data tphuang nicely published.
JetBlue is 10% lower cost compared to delta and they hold a revenue advantage towards delta in Boston, so if delta is matching JetBlue, delta loses money and JetBlue makes money, and when JetBlue has higher fares they make even more when delta needs to match plus +10% to break even.
Delta has got quite its work cut out for them in Boston, and JetBlue’s product and popularity in Boston already gives them quite a leg up.
 
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pitbosflyer
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:48 pm

tphuang wrote:
pitbosflyer wrote:
iyerhari wrote:
2. Quarterly revenue in Boston rose 25 percent, year over year, leading Delta’s system


Interesting considering so many people have been posting the DL flight loads and predicting doom and gloom for the "new Boston hub." DL is extremely good at making money, I think they are in BOS for the long haul. They have shown they are willing to burn money in the short term for a later pay off. All though it seems so far revenue hasn't been a problem.

I don't know if that's a shot at me, but I am simply posting what the number shows.

Keep in mind, they have added a lot of short range stuff on regional jet, which generally have higher cost and higher revenue per asm. It would be really surprising if revenue is not growing faster than capacity with that type of adds.

I have not seen any evidence they have gained in pricing power out of Boston. Their performance on routes like sfo pit and buf which have been around for 3 years have basically been pretty stable.

Also keep in mind that Delta has gotten a lot more profitable at NYC in the past two years, which gives them plenty of cash to build up new stations if they wish to do so.


No I appreciate the info you post tphuang. I get you're just presenting the data. Also no arguing routes like PIT and SFO don't have great loads. Most of the DL BOS doom and gloom hasn't been happening in this thread.
 
jworks158
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:18 pm

Just got an alert from Jettip

Supposably AA is sending a Oneworld 772 tonight from DFW scheduled is N796AN.

First of all why???? Second now that they have condensed into the LUS section of terminal B, where are they planning to park it? If I remember correctly from the plans, the largest plane the renovated LUS section can accommodate is a 787/A330. They can't park it in the LAA section as they have now added in a few more jetways, plus it is under construction. Could they maybe park it by UA, where they have multiple 777 compatible gates?
(A359,A343/A346,A332,A319/320/321,A220-100)(B788,B772,B762,B752,B744/B748,B732/B737/B738,B717)(E190,E145)(CRJ100/200, Dash 8-200)(MD-83)
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gatibosgru
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:24 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Will SAS return next year? It seems they had some trouble filling planes, even in summer.


They need something smaller than an A330. The LR/XLR would be perfect for this route.
@DadCelo
 
tjerome
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:45 pm

jworks158 wrote:
Just got an alert from Jettip

Supposably AA is sending a Oneworld 772 tonight from DFW scheduled is N796AN.

First of all why???? Second now that they have condensed into the LUS section of terminal B, where are they planning to park it? If I remember correctly from the plans, the largest plane the renovated LUS section can accommodate is a 787/A330. They can't park it in the LAA section as they have now added in a few more jetways, plus it is under construction. Could they maybe park it by UA, where they have multiple 777 compatible gates?


B8 with closing B10 takes a 777, and looking at flightaware that is where it is going... ETA 0103L
 
tphuang
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:05 am

iyerhari wrote:
But isn't DL also introducing TATL flights that maybe a good sell? They do very well with their fortress hubs - i do not have the details like the way you or VS4ever has, they may not be just adding flights to lose revenue.

That will be interesting, since you can expect a very fast buildup for B6 in TATL flights starting from 2021. There is going to be a lot of attractive fares out there for premium class.

Abeam79 wrote:
JetBlue is 10% lower cost compared to delta

It's actually greater than that. 20% in vacuum when stage adjusted and probably more than that in reality since JetBlue does not have large ATL/MSP operation to lower the high costs at crowded Northeast airports. And certainly, the gap between mainine and regional is even greater.

pitbosflyer wrote:
No I appreciate the info you post tphuang. I get you're just presenting the data. Also no arguing routes like PIT and SFO don't have great loads. Most of the DL BOS doom and gloom hasn't been happening in this thread.

I certainly underestimated DL's willingness to endure some of these really underperforming routes. Keep in mind though, DL expansion will be affected by economy situation, overall network profit and performance on existing route. Remember, they've already added all the "easy stuff" and there are a lot of fortress hubs left. The road to add another 50 flights is quite tough considering there are very few under-served routes out of BOS these days.

VS4ever wrote:
Interesting, however there's another point.. if DL are at 111 and they count their international partners in the 140, who on earth is flying 29 flights a day?

2 VS
2 AF
1 KL (not even daily)
1 KE (not even daily)
3 WS - YYZ

So that's 9, what am I missing here? and I will be happily corrected as my brain function is not 100% with it this morning if it's something obvious.

and the other question is, is the 200 based off the 111 or the 140, if it's the 140, then an additional 60 flights may be doable if they have the 5 gates at 10 turns and move some of the TATL stuff to E, which would free up the spots for the remaining 10.


I'm sure they are going by the highest possible day total. Even accounting for that at peak summer season + partner airline flights, I don't see how they get to 200. Especially by 2021. Up to now, they've been adding about 15 to 20 flights a year from summer of 2016 to 2019 (80? to 130). They've scheduled in maybe another 20 flights next year after they got those 5 gates. Maybe they will add a couple of more flights later this year for next summer. I think they are using 200 and 2021 to send a message to wall street and B6. Based on my estimation, B6 will reach 200 flights sometimes late 2020 or Mar 2021. Start of 2021 is when A220 + A321LR join service, which is a huge deal and enable B6 to add routes they are currently unable to due to distance or economic reasons. And they have the gate resources + cost to go up to 240 flights a day. This could be DL's way of getting B6 to back off further expansion.
 
B6BOSfan
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:45 am

VS4ever wrote:

Interesting, however there's another point.. if DL are at 111 and they count their international partners in the 140, who on earth is flying 29 flights a day?

2 VS
2 AF
1 KL (not even daily)
1 KE (not even daily)
3 WS - YYZ

So that's 9, what am I missing here? and I will be happily corrected as my brain function is not 100% with it this morning if it's something obvious.

and the other question is, is the 200 based off the 111 or the 140, if it's the 140, then an additional 60 flights may be doable if they have the 5 gates at 10 turns and move some of the TATL stuff to E, which would free up the spots for the remaining 10.


Their website also counts Air Italia and Hawaiian as partners, so... add three more flights to your total. I counted 13 overall, but that's not 29 flights a day, even if you double it.
 
RobertS975
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:21 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Airside bus from E to A ain't gonna happen. Would be madness. Bus would drive over the entire airport taxiways and block airplanes from reaching B and C gates.


Connecting luggage already makes the drive without clogging B and C gates. So I don't buy that argument at at all. You know that vehicles do not use taxiways, right?

FWIW, I noticed yesterday that there electric carts providing transfers between A and E via the parking garage passageway between 0700 and 2300.
 
hinckley
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:50 pm

As others have already said, I think transferring between A and E is pretty simple - and maybe less physical than the schlep to the new C gates from the main area of Terminal C. But I do think that BOS will need to invest in better transfer signage. It's not been necessary in the past, but if you look at huge transfer airports like LHR as a model, their simple purple "Flight Connection" signs are everywhere and are pretty simple to follow. That sort of investment would not be huge for Massport.

On a related note, I've never been clear on something . . . when passengers arrive through Terminal E, can they re-enter the sterile area in E and use the post-security walkway to get to Terminal C connections, or do they have to walk outside and re-enter the main Terminal C building?
 
iyerhari
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:30 pm

RobertS975 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Airside bus from E to A ain't gonna happen. Would be madness. Bus would drive over the entire airport taxiways and block airplanes from reaching B and C gates.


Connecting luggage already makes the drive without clogging B and C gates. So I don't buy that argument at at all. You know that vehicles do not use taxiways, right?

FWIW, I noticed yesterday that there electric carts providing transfers between A and E via the parking garage passageway between 0700 and 2300.


Is that the reason why check in bags take a very long time at Logan? I rarely check bags unless I have family with me - but Terminal B takes forever. In retrospect, PHL or ORD the baggage is way too quick.
 
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pitbosflyer
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:00 pm

For those interested this article has some great pictures of the retrofitted interior on the DL 767-400 that will be coming to the BOS-LHR route this fall.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/aboard-de ... one-seats/
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:32 pm

B6BOSfan wrote:
VS4ever wrote:

Interesting, however there's another point.. if DL are at 111 and they count their international partners in the 140, who on earth is flying 29 flights a day?

2 VS
2 AF
1 KL (not even daily)
1 KE (not even daily)
3 WS - YYZ

So that's 9, what am I missing here? and I will be happily corrected as my brain function is not 100% with it this morning if it's something obvious.

and the other question is, is the 200 based off the 111 or the 140, if it's the 140, then an additional 60 flights may be doable if they have the 5 gates at 10 turns and move some of the TATL stuff to E, which would free up the spots for the remaining 10.


Their website also counts Air Italia and Hawaiian as partners, so... add three more flights to your total. I counted 13 overall, but that's not 29 flights a day, even if you double it.


You cannot earn Skymiles on a HA mainland to Hawaii flight.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
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mikegigs
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:03 pm

pitbosflyer wrote:
For those interested this article has some great pictures of the retrofitted interior on the DL 767-400 that will be coming to the BOS-LHR route this fall.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/aboard-de ... one-seats/


Looks like a pretty nice upgrade. Totally forgot they were bringing the 764 to this route. Happy to see some widebody diversification from the A330's and 763's DL always flies from BOS.

Will this fall/winter be 763 to CDG, 332 to AMS, and 764 to LHR then?
Airports: BOS, JAX, JFK, EWR, LGA, CVG, ATL, CLT, DCA, IAD, STT, PVD, ALB, MCO
Aircraft: 733, 735, 73G, 738, 752, 717, A319, A320, MD-88, E190, E175, E145, CRJ-200, CRJ-700, Q400
Airlines: B6, CO, DL, US, NW, WN, DH
...a good start but a looong way to go!
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1436
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:00 am

tjerome wrote:
jworks158 wrote:
Just got an alert from Jettip

Supposably AA is sending a Oneworld 772 tonight from DFW scheduled is N796AN.

First of all why???? Second now that they have condensed into the LUS section of terminal B, where are they planning to park it? If I remember correctly from the plans, the largest plane the renovated LUS section can accommodate is a 787/A330. They can't park it in the LAA section as they have now added in a few more jetways, plus it is under construction. Could they maybe park it by UA, where they have multiple 777 compatible gates?


B8 with closing B10 takes a 777, and looking at flightaware that is where it is going... ETA 0103L


Sat at BOS for 12-hours. Peak summer season and AA has that much slack in their 777 fleet?
 
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VS4ever
Posts: 2120
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:19 am

Agenda for Massport - Logan Board Meeting held yesterday
https://www.massport.com/media/3253/agenda_7-18-19.pdf

Interesting tidbits, some of which we will see when they post the documents, some we won't.

Lease info
DL - ORH - Does look like DTW is going ahead if they are going to get an actual operating agreement ratified.
WN - Terminal B lease, now they are off the sublease of A Gates, they need their own agreement.

Projects:
B to C Roadway improvements
C Canopy & Upper Deck
Parking Program
Central Heating
and 10 CNG buses for a whopping 700K a piece,
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
Runway28L
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:57 am

A bit of an incident at BOS tonight as DL2488 from SFO clipped wings with DL154 bound for DUB.

https://twitter.com/tompodolec/status/1 ... 83040?s=21
 
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N717TW
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:05 pm

tphuang wrote:
iyerhari wrote:

Abeam79 wrote:
JetBlue is 10% lower cost compared to delta

It's actually greater than that. 20% in vacuum when stage adjusted and probably more than that in reality since JetBlue does not have large ATL/MSP operation to lower the high costs at crowded Northeast airports. And certainly, the gap between mainine and regional is even greater.



While what you're saying could be true, three thoughts pop into my head:
1. Hubs actually raise costs. The cost of running 30, 50 or more flights all in the same 75 minute window raises costs as you can't spread gate and ramp staff. Never mind all the transfer costs you need to factor in--moving bags, moving passengers, extra fuel for moving the passenger further, etc. Granted, ATL with nearly 1100 flights is so large that its economy of scale is dramatic. That said, roughly 80% of DL's traffic at ATL is connecting, so nearly all the costs of running ATL are an extra cost on a passenger compared to a nonstop flight.

2. Costs should go down on stage length. So are you saying that B6's costs are even lower compared to DL b/c B6's stage lengths are generally shorter than DLs (I'm not sure that's actually true at BOS but I'm willing to concede that it probably is true).

But note that a huge % of DL's shorter stage flying is done by contract-flying. See, e.g. JFK, BUF, PHL, PIT, RDU, CMH, CVG, ORF, RIC, BNA, MKE, JAX, CHS, and MCI are almost entirely regional. Are DCI costs (say a CR9 or E75) that much higher than B6's E90? I have no idea...but my gut is that they closer than inferred.

3. International costs are much higher. DLs costs include a significant amount of Int'l capacity and especially intercontinental traffic compared to B6 (which is mostly domestic plus some Caribbean traffic). Non-tourist international adds tremendous costs: foreign currency, sales offices, language of destination, plus huge staff costs--less efficient use of crew, international RON costs, plus international and widebody differential pay. While B6 has some real costs as the defacto airline of the DR, most of its international traffic is narrow body traffic flying English speaking passengers from BOS. While they have a lot of code shares to/from BOS the last time I flew DCA-BOS on B6 there was no attempt to support the JL passengers (maybe 20ish) who were connecting onto the NRT flight.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:04 am

BA will be bringing their newly reconfigured 4 class 777-200ER to BOS from 2/2/20 on various rotations of BA213/214 and BA 238/239, new seating is 8F, 49J, 40W, 138Y, with the Y being 10 abreast. I think personally i will stick to going via AMS (DL/KL) for my flights back to the homeland in W, thank you very much :)

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... rk-in-w19/
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
RL757PVD
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:16 am

Per the OAG thread, WN is dropping both ATL and MCI completely in Oct, on top of the other cuts it seems they are keen to let DL and B6 duke it out
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
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N717TW
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:43 am

RL757PVD wrote:
Per the OAG thread, WN is dropping both ATL and MCI completely in Oct, on top of the other cuts it seems they are keen to let DL and B6 duke it out


WN continues to drop markets where it doesn't doesn't have significant demand (or connecting traffic) on the other end. This stems from not having a very strong BOS point-of-sale business which is both surprising and not surprising. If you spend time in Terminal A, you'll notice how the WN passengers aren't dropping their Rs. Surprising given how WN built up a strong following in PVD and MHT and were actually causing reverse flows in the late 90s and '00s where people in the normal BOS catchment area would drive down/up to fly WN. Not surprising given how strong B6's brand is at Logan and that just eats into the natural biz that WN would capture.

Given their shortage of jets (due to 737Max groundings) I'm surprised they didn't drop more service.
 
tphuang
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:08 am

N717TW wrote:
2. Costs should go down on stage length. So are you saying that B6's costs are even lower compared to DL b/c B6's stage lengths are generally shorter than DLs (I'm not sure that's actually true at BOS but I'm willing to concede that it probably is true).

But note that a huge % of DL's shorter stage flying is done by contract-flying. See, e.g. JFK, BUF, PHL, PIT, RDU, CMH, CVG, ORF, RIC, BNA, MKE, JAX, CHS, and MCI are almost entirely regional. Are DCI costs (say a CR9 or E75) that much higher than B6's E90? I have no idea...but my gut is that they closer than inferred.

Alaska air posted a stage adjusted CASM-EX guide a while back in its investor guide. And DL was over 20% higher than that of B6/AS and iirc 30% higher than WN. I would imagine that would include both DL's regional fleet + their widebodies.

I've looked at effect of upgauging in various markets. It seems to me that when DL upguage from 76 seat RJ to 110 seat B717, it's RASM drop around 15%. It's hard for me to make sense of them upgauging to mainline unless the CASM difference between 717 and 76 seat RJ is greater than that. And the cost gap between 50 or 70 seaters vs 717 would be even greater. And the cost of 717 and E90 is probably 20% higher than A320/B737 on the shorthaul stuff. You see on a market like BOS-CLE, where UA dropped out despite having much higher load factor + higher fares than B6 because the economics of 50 seaters require really high yield to sustain. AA was the highest yielding carrier when it dropped out of BOS-PIT.
 
EK77WNH
Posts: 186
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:02 pm

N717TW wrote:
Surprising given how WN built up a strong following in PVD and MHT and were actually causing reverse flows in the late 90s and '00s where people in the normal BOS catchment area would drive down/up to fly WN. Not surprising given how strong B6's brand is at Logan and that just eats into the natural biz that WN would capture.


Someone with more insight could probably answer the obvious question: Was the move by Southwest into more-recent big-city airports a successful one? I'm speaking about, primarily, places like BOS-PHL-IAD-LGA. They were long 'admired' for their 'secondary-airport' strategy, but then, almost overnight, they decided they 'had' to be at the big airports. And with it, costs went up and their legendary 20-minute turn times got eaten up by ground delays. Any kind of leverage they had at the smaller airports disappeared at the big ones. Can you imagine if someone at Southwest 'demanded' something of Massport?
Next Trip:
JAL 7-8 BOS-NRT-BOS, 787-9
September
 
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N717TW
Posts: 521
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:23 pm

tphuang wrote:
N717TW wrote:
2. Costs should go down on stage length. So are you saying that B6's costs are even lower compared to DL b/c B6's stage lengths are generally shorter than DLs (I'm not sure that's actually true at BOS but I'm willing to concede that it probably is true).

But note that a huge % of DL's shorter stage flying is done by contract-flying. See, e.g. JFK, BUF, PHL, PIT, RDU, CMH, CVG, ORF, RIC, BNA, MKE, JAX, CHS, and MCI are almost entirely regional. Are DCI costs (say a CR9 or E75) that much higher than B6's E90? I have no idea...but my gut is that they closer than inferred.

Alaska air posted a stage adjusted CASM-EX guide a while back in its investor guide. And DL was over 20% higher than that of B6/AS and iirc 30% higher than WN. I would imagine that would include both DL's regional fleet + their widebodies.

I've looked at effect of upgauging in various markets. It seems to me that when DL upguage from 76 seat RJ to 110 seat B717, it's RASM drop around 15%. It's hard for me to make sense of them upgauging to mainline unless the CASM difference between 717 and 76 seat RJ is greater than that. And the cost gap between 50 or 70 seaters vs 717 would be even greater. And the cost of 717 and E90 is probably 20% higher than A320/B737 on the shorthaul stuff. You see on a market like BOS-CLE, where UA dropped out despite having much higher load factor + higher fares than B6 because the economics of 50 seaters require really high yield to sustain. AA was the highest yielding carrier when it dropped out of BOS-PIT.


I'm not sure what numbers AS used, but I believe AS' costs are much lower than WN. Most recent analyst data I've seen puts DL CASM at just under 13¢/mile where as WN is 11.5¢/mile and B6 is 10.75¢/mile. So B6 has a 2.25¢/mile advantage--and that would appear to benefit B6. But we're not factoring in trip costs. If we assume that those costs are roughly accurate on short haul flights then you see how DL using DCI can actually compete with B6 despite having higher operating costs.

Let's use BOS-PHL (both routes where DL/B6 are mostly targeting local traffic). Its 280 miles. So a CR9 on DL has a trip cost of $2762. B6 (with a E90)has a trip cost of $3287.... With an avg fare around $100 (just to make it easy for our purposes), B6 needs six more passengers to break even than DL does.
 
tphuang
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:57 pm

N717TW wrote:
tphuang wrote:
N717TW wrote:
2. Costs should go down on stage length. So are you saying that B6's costs are even lower compared to DL b/c B6's stage lengths are generally shorter than DLs (I'm not sure that's actually true at BOS but I'm willing to concede that it probably is true).

But note that a huge % of DL's shorter stage flying is done by contract-flying. See, e.g. JFK, BUF, PHL, PIT, RDU, CMH, CVG, ORF, RIC, BNA, MKE, JAX, CHS, and MCI are almost entirely regional. Are DCI costs (say a CR9 or E75) that much higher than B6's E90? I have no idea...but my gut is that they closer than inferred.

Alaska air posted a stage adjusted CASM-EX guide a while back in its investor guide. And DL was over 20% higher than that of B6/AS and iirc 30% higher than WN. I would imagine that would include both DL's regional fleet + their widebodies.

I've looked at effect of upgauging in various markets. It seems to me that when DL upguage from 76 seat RJ to 110 seat B717, it's RASM drop around 15%. It's hard for me to make sense of them upgauging to mainline unless the CASM difference between 717 and 76 seat RJ is greater than that. And the cost gap between 50 or 70 seaters vs 717 would be even greater. And the cost of 717 and E90 is probably 20% higher than A320/B737 on the shorthaul stuff. You see on a market like BOS-CLE, where UA dropped out despite having much higher load factor + higher fares than B6 because the economics of 50 seaters require really high yield to sustain. AA was the highest yielding carrier when it dropped out of BOS-PIT.


I'm not sure what numbers AS used, but I believe AS' costs are much lower than WN. Most recent analyst data I've seen puts DL CASM at just under 13¢/mile where as WN is 11.5¢/mile and B6 is 10.75¢/mile. So B6 has a 2.25¢/mile advantage--and that would appear to benefit B6. But we're not factoring in trip costs. If we assume that those costs are roughly accurate on short haul flights then you see how DL using DCI can actually compete with B6 despite having higher operating costs.

Let's use BOS-PHL (both routes where DL/B6 are mostly targeting local traffic). Its 280 miles. So a CR9 on DL has a trip cost of $2762. B6 (with a E90)has a trip cost of $3287.... With an avg fare around $100 (just to make it easy for our purposes), B6 needs six more passengers to break even than DL does.


The numbers that presentation used were stage length adjusted. WN typically operates short stage length than other major airlines, so their stage length adjusted numbers are really good. CASM is a lot higher for short haul flight than long haul flight, so you'd have to use some kind of stage length adjusted CASM to calculate. I don't have the formula for that, so I typically just compare yield on similarly stage lengthed flight using similar aircraft type.

I will use BOS-CLE from Q1 as an example. Stage length is 563 miles.
Carrier Passengers AvgFare LF Yield RASM flights SeatPerFlight
B6 38077 120.49 84% 101.24 0.1798 451 100.5
UA 10692 168.37 79% 133.35 0.2369 270 50.0
DL 8497 119.2 75% 89.86 0.1596 149 75.6

Notice how UA generated yields that was 32% higher than what B6 had and fares were almost 40% higher? RASM of close to 24 cent in a typically slow quarter was apparently not enough to satisfy their revenue management to be kept around even as they are expanding 5 to 6% domestically.
 
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tlecam
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:29 pm

TPHuang - question about those average fares for the Cleveland route? How would connecting traffic for DL and B6 reflect there?
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
jworks158
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:11 pm

Cape Air took delivery of the first two Tecnam P2012s this past week so time to start looking for them at BOS https://www.tecnam.com/slider-home-en/c ... -aircraft/
(A359,A343/A346,A332,A319/320/321,A220-100)(B788,B772,B762,B752,B744/B748,B732/B737/B738,B717)(E190,E145)(CRJ100/200, Dash 8-200)(MD-83)
JB,UA(C5,EV,CHQ,AX),AA(EGF,ZW,AX,PT),DL(OH,YX),FL,WN,LH,BA,AF,AZ,IB,VX,CO
https://my.flightradar24.com/theorangetechie
 
tphuang
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:33 pm

tlecam wrote:
TPHuang - question about those average fares for the Cleveland route? How would connecting traffic for DL and B6 reflect there?

I stripped out any fare itineraries that were BOS-XXX-CLE, since those are not reflective of the direct route. Sorry, I don't have any data on CLE-BOS-XXX or XXX-BOS-CLE. Haven't figured out how to calculate % of traffic that are connecting on a route. I would imagine that would be lower yielding stuff.
 
AviationAddict
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:13 pm

jworks158 wrote:
Cape Air took delivery of the first two Tecnam P2012s this past week so time to start looking for them at BOS https://www.tecnam.com/slider-home-en/c ... -aircraft/


I can't remember where I read this so don't take it as gospel but I believe the first handful are being sent out to either the Montana or Missouri (can't remember which) bases. It might be a while before BOS sees regular service with the P2012s.


On a side note, it looks like the livery might be slightly different, more grayish blue than royal/dark blue on the tail. It could just be the lighting though. Either way, it's a great looking plane.

https://media.tecnam.org/2019/07/22/cap ... -aircraft/
Last edited by AviationAddict on Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
iyerhari
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:15 pm

tphuang wrote:
tlecam wrote:
TPHuang - question about those average fares for the Cleveland route? How would connecting traffic for DL and B6 reflect there?

I stripped out any fare itineraries that were BOS-XXX-CLE, since those are not reflective of the direct route. Sorry, I don't have any data on CLE-BOS-XXX or XXX-BOS-CLE. Haven't figured out how to calculate % of traffic that are connecting on a route. I would imagine that would be lower yielding stuff.

tphuang - thank you as always. Generic question and if anyone can share insights would be helpful: typically is the cost structure for express flights cheaper vs. full service or it is completely dependent on outside factors (premium cabin, fare competition etc.). The reason I ask is: (just listed some of the key points)

1. Last week due to the CHI bad weather on Thu, all AA flights got canceled to BOS. I had to fly on Fri to PVD. When I looked at the announcement board, practically all Platinum Pro members got upgraded to First Class. It was also a AAE flights to PVD vs. all the flights to BOS are the AA flights. The point I am trying to make is, for flights to BOS, rarely do I find members get an upgrade unless it is fluke - I am referring to pax who are lifetime million milers and i hear them lament all the time how rarely they find an upgrade.

Does AA make money in the PVD flight as the front row is filled with upgraded pax?

2. DL is going to start flights to ORD starting Sep. ORD is ultra-competitive market and i can buy a first class seat using my corporate website for $200/way. This is for AA. I can imagine DL is chasing the Sky pax as most business pax want to be in their affiliated airline. Can we say that DL cost structure would be cheaper than UA or AA as they are going to use Express planes vs. full-service DL?

Appreciate any expert insights.
 
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tlecam
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:15 am

Lots of diversions headed to Logan tonight - they apparently closed two runways just to park the planes.

https://twitter.com/jettipnet/status/11 ... 66624?s=21
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90

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