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MAH4546
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:42 pm

airbazar wrote:
RL757PVD wrote:
I still find that LHR-BOS being BA's top yielding route in their entire Global network is quite telling and surprising.


Absolutely nowhere does it say that BOSLHR is the highest yielding route. All it says is among the 15 routes with the most P2P traffic, it is the highest yielding. But the “analysis” is grossly oversimplified and also totally ignores that BA and AA share capacity on a joint venture across the Atlantic, so it’s not going to properly measure markets where AA and BA pretty much split capacity, DFW/MIA/ORD/PHL. It also ignores that BA and JAL have a venture to Tokyo, which explains Tokyo’s absence. It’s of little actual value. It’s just a list of 13 routes where BA has no joint venture partner, plus the massive JFK and LAX markets.

But it should surprise nobody that Boston-London, a very short trans-Atlantic route with strong business demand, is high yielding for British Airways. Just by geography - the fares are similar from anywhere else on the East Coast, but it’s quite a bit shorter.
a.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:54 am

VS4ever wrote:
And in shockingly unsurprising news, the new ride share location not going. Over so well[twoid][/twoid]

https://boston.cbslocal.com/2019/11/27/ ... nksgiving/


Just adapt. I took Lyft this early morning to Logan and it was a breeze. Got dropped off a arrivals. Perfect. On the way back I will just take a cab (as usual).
If my flight departure falls outside the early morning hours, I will also take a cab from home.
 
RobertS975
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:42 pm

At LAX, they have also separated ride shares and even taxis from the terminal loop for arrivals. But Uber Black and Black XL can still pick up at the terminals. Is there anything similar for the premium rides at Logan ?
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:45 pm

Black Friday related - I was just at Costco and noticed that DL $500 gift cards can be purchased for $450 there. There is a max purchase of 3 and a max online redemption of 3. I have a friend in Charlotte who originally posted this on his travel facebook page so this is a nationwide deal and not just in hubs.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
FGITD
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:22 am

Now it's official so no more gossip or rumors.

AF 2x a350 daily all summer. Both flights switched from 772
 
iyerhari
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:13 pm

FGITD wrote:
Now it's official so no more gossip or rumors.

AF 2x a350 daily all summer. Both flights switched from 772

Is this one of the only routes that you said few threads back that was going to be upgauged or there is lot more left? :)

Dieuwer wrote:
VS4ever wrote:
And in shockingly unsurprising news, the new ride share location not going. Over so well[twoid][/twoid]

https://boston.cbslocal.com/2019/11/27/ ... nksgiving/


Just adapt. I took Lyft this early morning to Logan and it was a breeze. Got dropped off a arrivals. Perfect. On the way back I will just take a cab (as usual).
If my flight departure falls outside the early morning hours, I will also take a cab from home.

You came in during a relatively quieter week. The biggest issue with the Uber app and especially using the new layout (which incidentally was also the issue when terminal pickups was allowed) is the unpredictability. E.g. Uber app will say 5 mins. but it will sometimes take as long as 40-45 mins. The taxi lines as you say are also not easy - there are only so many Metro Cabs available and the lines are a mess. As I said, this happens when there is peak traffic exiting the airport. I did it for two weeks from B and now have a dedicated driver who picks and drops me off. The good thing is exiting the terminal is now easier.

But to your point, you adapt and I think that is what several airports such as ORD, LAX have or in the process of doing to move Uber/Lyft drivers to a dedicated facility.
 
massachoicetts
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:44 am

Just flew out of B North today, (Gate B22)... the construction on E is coming along well.. B is beautiful. Kelly's was meh. I walked to Terminal E before checking in and I just love how you can get a full skyline view from being dropped off at the departure level E. I stood in front of the Emirates/Turkish/Norwegian/Icelandair drop off area and the view was amazing.

When you take in Logan, it is seriously one of the best airports out there.

However, my flight was at 7pm and I notice AA doesnt really utilize a lot of there gates... especially at that hour. Theres enough space for evening flights (TATL, close by, etc)

B20-B21 sat unused from 4pm onwards.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:04 pm

So it appears from this that TP’s PDL flight is going to be year round, just at a reduced frequency in the Winter season.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... djustment/
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
johhn14
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:42 pm

The EK 380 is back starting today through the end of January - the flight is in the air now. It’ll be interesting to see what these loads are and whether they consider year round service.
 
FGITD
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:09 pm

massachoicetts wrote:
I walked to Terminal E before checking in and I just love how you can get a full skyline view from being dropped off at the departure level E. I stood in front of the Emirates/Turkish/Norwegian/Icelandair drop off area and the view was amazing.

When you take in Logan, it is seriously one of the best airports out there.



Enjoy it while you can! Once the terminal E garage goes up, the view will be no more. But that won’t be for a little while, still!
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:06 pm

EK77WNH wrote:
LOT axing flights to ORD and EWR (both 788s). Precursor to coming to Boston?


Where do you see LOT dropping EWR? As far as I’m concerned the frequency actually goes from 4x to 5x weekly next year along with it being bookable until through September.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:52 pm

No mass flights cancellations in BOS today?
 
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tlecam
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:44 am

Not that I am aware of. I live in Southie and it only snowed for an hour or two before turning to rain.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
 
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tlecam
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:06 am

The slide falling of the DL 767 arriving from Paris into somene’s yard in Milton is wild. I live in Southie out by City Point and those planes fly over all the time!
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
AviationAddict
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:26 am

I’m curious to know how that even happens. Glad no one was hurt though.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:31 am

AviationAddict wrote:
I’m curious to know how that even happens. Glad no one was hurt though.


Check the thread dedicated to it, apparently AD’s have been issued on the 757 about this and someone said they think the same has happened on the 767.
Something to do with a locking clamp failure which is a known issue and required to be consistently checked, but not the first time this has happened.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
greg787
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:53 pm

Flying out today from terminal B to ORD right now. Still snowing this morning but things seem to be at least moving today. Terminal-wise things are a mess. Precheck line was out of the queue, United gates were full and now using B29-B31 to deal with delays from yesterday I guess (My first time seeing B29-B31 post renovations and they’re quite comfortable IMO). Terminal is packed too ( The Dunks ran out half their stuff).
But at least they’re getting planes out.
 
PVDspotting
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:55 pm

Curious to know how it went handling the Emirates A380 for its first snowstorm?
 
iyerhari
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:21 pm

Interesting article:
https://www.boston.com/travel/travel/20 ... each-other

I know ratings are sometimes flawed but what was interesting is that off the 20 top airlines in the world, 12/20 fly into Logan.

Highest ranked is CX. '

From the article:

What’s more, Delta Air Lines was awarded best long-haul airline for the Americas, Emirates best for in-flight entertainment and best long-haul Middle East/Africa, Cathay Pacific for best long-haul Asia, Lufthansa for best long-haul Europe, and Qatar Airways for best business class and catering. JetBlue, Logan’s largest carrier, did not make the list of 20 best airlines, but snagged best low-cost airline for the Americas.
 
FGITD
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:51 pm

PVDspotting wrote:
Curious to know how it went handling the Emirates A380 for its first snowstorm?


Didn't work on it directly, but wasn't too far and know a few who did.

Nothing beyond the usual snow challenges. Deicing is more or less the same. Just more fluid and much higher up
 
iyerhari
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:11 pm

Another good article that I found interesting: Boston Set To Overtake Miami As East Coast’s Third-Largest Gateway To Europe

With all the recent DL adds:
1. JFK
2. EWR
3. BOS
4. MIA

https://www.bisnow.com/boston/news/econ ... ope-101796
 
massachoicetts
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:57 pm

I think its third largest market, as in:

1. JFK/EWR
2. ORD
3. BOS
4. MIA
5. DC
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:11 am

2019 report is out from Massport for July 18 to June 19. Lots of information here, the key ones we like to discuss are around pages 150 to 155 (market share stats) and around 173 for the gate leases, which are out of date, but were correct at time of the statements
79 leased, 6 cute gates (5 in B and 1 in C) and then the 12 in E for a total of 97 (just in case you were wondering how they got the calculations.

As for the pax numbers. 5.5% connections vs O&D. B6 #1 vs mainline and even if you gave all the regionals to AA and we know DL and UA have a bunch they would still be streets ahead. AA mainline ahead of DL at June 30 and most of the DL adds after that point have been regionals, so I expect that % to increase for the 2020 report. Foreign carriers closing in on 15% and that’s before the big numbers from July and August hit.

The pet project of ORH is losing them a ridiculous amount of money each year, but revenue is up to $3m and will probably climb as DL’s DTW flight had not started at the time of the report. ORH will be closing in on 800,000 since 2013 by the end of the year and annually will be around 200K by end of year, it’s growing but it’s a very long term play here and won’t be margin positive unless the construction costs for CAT III and other programs are significantly paid off.


Anyway, enjoy..

http://www.massport.com/media/3425/mpa- ... -final.pdf
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
VS11
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:18 am

VS4ever wrote:

The pet project of ORH is losing them a ridiculous amount of money each year, but revenue is up to $3m and will probably climb as DL’s DTW flight had not started at the time of the report. ORH will be closing in on 800,000 since 2013 by the end of the year and annually will be around 200K by end of year, it’s growing but it’s a very long term play here and won’t be margin positive unless the construction costs for CAT III and other programs are significantly paid off.



It is a very long term play but rather necessary. Reaching Logan if you don’t live in the city is a major major hassle , with the way I-90/93/95 are congested throughout the day.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:28 am

VS11 wrote:
VS4ever wrote:

The pet project of ORH is losing them a ridiculous amount of money each year, but revenue is up to $3m and will probably climb as DL’s DTW flight had not started at the time of the report. ORH will be closing in on 800,000 since 2013 by the end of the year and annually will be around 200K by end of year, it’s growing but it’s a very long term play here and won’t be margin positive unless the construction costs for CAT III and other programs are significantly paid off.



It is a very long term play but rather necessary. Reaching Logan if you don’t live in the city is a major major hassle , with the way I-90/93/95 are congested throughout the day.


I don’t live out that way, but you only have to see the morning traffic reports to understand the particular problem. I think this is a case of if you build it, they will come, but given the loads thus far, with the exception of the established FLL and MCO routes, Massport/airlines still have some work to do on that front.
I would be interested to know if there are any 2020 route additions planned, especially now they have the 4 jetways built out it could allow for another carrier to join in or expand the other offerings. Anyway this is digressing into a different forum thread, but I am still curious what the next round of strategy for ORH looks like, frankly to me it’s actually fascinating to watch even at this small level.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:05 am

massachoicetts wrote:
I think its third largest market, as in:

1. JFK/EWR
2. ORD
3. BOS
4. MIA
5. DC


By seat size that’s roughly accurate. By local market size it’s, including west coast it’s roughly:

1) NYC
2) Miami
3) LA
4) SF
5) Chicago
6) Boston
7) DC
8) Orlando
9) Houston
10) Seattle

But it’s usually pretty close between CHI/WAS/BOS.
a.
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:08 pm

VS4ever wrote:
VS11 wrote:
VS4ever wrote:

The pet project of ORH is losing them a ridiculous amount of money each year, but revenue is up to $3m and will probably climb as DL’s DTW flight had not started at the time of the report. ORH will be closing in on 800,000 since 2013 by the end of the year and annually will be around 200K by end of year, it’s growing but it’s a very long term play here and won’t be margin positive unless the construction costs for CAT III and other programs are significantly paid off.



It is a very long term play but rather necessary. Reaching Logan if you don’t live in the city is a major major hassle , with the way I-90/93/95 are congested throughout the day.


I don’t live out that way, but you only have to see the morning traffic reports to understand the particular problem. I think this is a case of if you build it, they will come, but given the loads thus far, with the exception of the established FLL and MCO routes, Massport/airlines still have some work to do on that front.

MHT built it and they didn't come. In fact they fled from it like the plague. And traffic around MHT isn't nearly as bad as traffic around ORH. MHT even built a beautiful new bridge for direct access from the highway, something ORH will never have.
Traffic around Worcester isn't that easy. I commuted on 495 for a few years and once you get close to the I-90/495/290 triangle it slows to a crawl at rush hour. Right now at 8:55am Google maps is saying 1:05 to BOS from Natick and :55 to ORH. That's not a significant enough difference.
If you live even a little south of I-90 like Hopkinton, now PVD is in play. If you live North of I-90 like Concord, MHT is actually closer. If you live far enough West of Worcester, BDL is better.
IMO, ORH will be 100% dependent of the population and economical growth of Worcester itself. Unfortunately companies are not showing enough interest in relocating from greater Boston to the far Western suburbs.
 
dtremit
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:55 pm

airbazar wrote:
If you live even a little south of I-90 like Hopkinton, now PVD is in play. If you live North of I-90 like Concord, MHT is actually closer. If you live far enough West of Worcester, BDL is better.
IMO, ORH will be 100% dependent of the population and economical growth of Worcester itself. Unfortunately companies are not showing enough interest in relocating from greater Boston to the far Western suburbs.


The problem for any one of the alternates is the wacky population density of the Boston CSA. We have an extremely dense core in one of the lowest density CSAs in the country. Interesting analysis here:

https://www.newgeography.com/content/00 ... ing-boston

The population density inside of 128 is very high -- ~2M people, for whom Logan will always be the most convenient option.

That would still seem to leave a catchment of 5M people for the other airports, but for any given person in that 5M, at least one of the three alternate airports is going to be a non-starter. You're not going to drive from Peabody to PVD, or from Stoughton to MHT.

So realistically, I'd guess you maybe have a potential catchment of ~2M for each smaller airport, most of which is still in competition with BOS. Not a great formula for success.

I don't think it's any surprise that of the three, PVD has been the most successful -- it has the most actual, local population, giving it a strong base, and it's invested in rail.
 
boeingbus
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:32 pm

dtremit wrote:
I don't think it's any surprise that of the three, PVD has been the most successful -- it has the most actual, local population, giving it a strong base, and it's invested in rail.


Even with PVD great location, it lacks flights -every major should have hourly shuttle flights to their hubs. So, it really should be even much more successful than it is at this moment -due to its location and convenience. The current gates and terminal are underused and that is too bad. I blame the airlines as they capitalize on the convenient with higher prices due to lower supply. 1) unless you are going to FL, airlines charge excessive prices even with short connections to their hubs 2) smaller jets/low supply and few flights to their hubs are gouging customers. I understand point 2 point travel destinations are rare, its a small airport. That's why there are hubs, but the majors need to increase the number of flights to their hubs for convenience. Otherwise, you spend all day traveling!!!

So, till airlines seriously invest in PVD or any other NE airports as an alternative to BOS than there is nothing the airport can do to attract. BOS will always be the preferable start to most travel journeys due to the flight options available and at a lower cost.

Gosh, I wish JetBlue would fly to JFK from PVD, to give me access to all their flights in the states as well as their partners to go all over the world. I would fly from PVD all the time.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
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tlecam
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:02 pm

dtremit wrote:
airbazar wrote:
If you live even a little south of I-90 like Hopkinton, now PVD is in play. If you live North of I-90 like Concord, MHT is actually closer. If you live far enough West of Worcester, BDL is better.
IMO, ORH will be 100% dependent of the population and economical growth of Worcester itself. Unfortunately companies are not showing enough interest in relocating from greater Boston to the far Western suburbs.


The problem for any one of the alternates is the wacky population density of the Boston CSA. We have an extremely dense core in one of the lowest density CSAs in the country. Interesting analysis here:

https://www.newgeography.com/content/00 ... ing-boston

The population density inside of 128 is very high -- ~2M people, for whom Logan will always be the most convenient option.

That would still seem to leave a catchment of 5M people for the other airports, but for any given person in that 5M, at least one of the three alternate airports is going to be a non-starter. You're not going to drive from Peabody to PVD, or from Stoughton to MHT.

So realistically, I'd guess you maybe have a potential catchment of ~2M for each smaller airport, most of which is still in competition with BOS. Not a great formula for success.

I don't think it's any surprise that of the three, PVD has been the most successful -- it has the most actual, local population, giving it a strong base, and it's invested in rail.


Yes (great article btw). The long term macro-economic trends point to more of this. And when you dig into the demographics beneath gross population, it's even more pronounced. The business activity outside of the urban core from the .com era has been reversing itself for about a decade. What was happening in Waltham / Lexington / Bedford is now happening in Cambridge (again) and the Seaport. Even more traditional industries - Converse and Reebok have left the suburbs for the city because of the talent.

I don't think it's all doom and gloom for Worcester, MHT and PVD, but I don't think they will benefit from the Boston sprawl (e.g. people who work in town and live in the exburbs). As Boston continues to become more and more expensive, I do think that eventaully you'll see people look to Providence/Worcester/Manchester as alternative, less expensive smaller cities. Worcester is seeing some of this already, as is Providence. I am not sure about Manchester. But it's going to be a multi-decade evolution.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
Kno
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:19 pm

dtremit wrote:
airbazar wrote:
If you live even a little south of I-90 like Hopkinton, now PVD is in play. If you live North of I-90 like Concord, MHT is actually closer. If you live far enough West of Worcester, BDL is better.
IMO, ORH will be 100% dependent of the population and economical growth of Worcester itself. Unfortunately companies are not showing enough interest in relocating from greater Boston to the far Western suburbs.


The problem for any one of the alternates is the wacky population density of the Boston CSA. We have an extremely dense core in one of the lowest density CSAs in the country. Interesting analysis here:

https://www.newgeography.com/content/00 ... ing-boston

The population density inside of 128 is very high -- ~2M people, for whom Logan will always be the most convenient option.

That would still seem to leave a catchment of 5M people for the other airports, but for any given person in that 5M, at least one of the three alternate airports is going to be a non-starter. You're not going to drive from Peabody to PVD, or from Stoughton to MHT.

So realistically, I'd guess you maybe have a potential catchment of ~2M for each smaller airport, most of which is still in competition with BOS. Not a great formula for success.

I don't think it's any surprise that of the three, PVD has been the most successful -- it has the most actual, local population, giving it a strong base, and it's invested in rail.


People will drive to the smaller airports if the fare is right.

To be fair my sample size is small but I know a lot of people in Boston who will fly out of NYC internationally, especially to Asia, if it saves $300-$400 dollars (which it often does, I've done this myself). My roommate just flew out of BDL to MIA even though we live 15 minutes from Logan because the ticket was $250 vs $450. I hear countless stories of this kind of ticket buying constantly from friends, family, and coworkers, I'm sure a large amount of people I can't account for are doing the same.
 
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ChrisNH38
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:28 pm

The fare is one thing; service flexibility is another. As a business traveler, I refuse to leave myself at the mercy of airlines with very thin service at MHT. Delta Air Lines has (or, had...I guess) a single RT between MHT and ATL. Would I book myself on either leg? No! I wouldn't want to get to the check-in desk at MHT to be told that, sorry, the plane never got in the night before and YOU HAVE TO GET YOURSELF TO LOGAN. Or, the plane will leave late and you'll miss your ATL connection. These things can happen on either leg. So, I am one of those people who would LIKE to subsidize MHT but the schedules are way too thin and leave me with no margin. If the chances are that the gate agent at MHT will point his or her finger toward Logan, why don't I book out of Logan to begin with?

So, that's what I do.
https://my.flightradar24.com/ChrisNH
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:24 pm

tlecam wrote:
Yes (great article btw). The long term macro-economic trends point to more of this. And when you dig into the demographics beneath gross population, it's even more pronounced. The business activity outside of the urban core from the .com era has been reversing itself for about a decade. What was happening in Waltham / Lexington / Bedford is now happening in Cambridge (again) and the Seaport. Even more traditional industries - Converse and Reebok have left the suburbs for the city because of the talent.

IMO some of these companies are soon going to find out that they made a mistake. Housing in Boston is exorbitant and transportation is a disaster and getting worse by the day. These industries rely heavily on young professionals and these people can no longer afford to live in the city. This talent is leaving. It's not just a Boston problem but the problem here is compounded by bad traffic and expensive housing.
They are moving to places like Austin and Raleigh and a few other new smaller cities that are experiencing tech growth. Seattle has many of the same problems that Boston has and as a result its companies are struggling to find enough talent. That should be a warning sign for Boston based companies.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:27 pm

airbazar wrote:
tlecam wrote:
Yes (great article btw). The long term macro-economic trends point to more of this. And when you dig into the demographics beneath gross population, it's even more pronounced. The business activity outside of the urban core from the .com era has been reversing itself for about a decade. What was happening in Waltham / Lexington / Bedford is now happening in Cambridge (again) and the Seaport. Even more traditional industries - Converse and Reebok have left the suburbs for the city because of the talent.

IMO some of these companies are soon going to find out that they made a mistake. Housing in Boston is exorbitant and transportation is a disaster and getting worse by the day. These industries rely heavily on young professionals and these people can no longer afford to live in the city. This talent is leaving. It's not just a Boston problem but the problem here is compounded by bad traffic and expensive housing.
They are moving to places like Austin and Raleigh and a few other new smaller cities that are experiencing tech growth. Seattle has many of the same problems that Boston has and as a result its companies are struggling to find enough talent. That should be a warning sign for Boston based companies.


Or salary and benefits need to increase commensurate with the cost of living in Boston proper.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:33 pm

airbazar wrote:
tlecam wrote:
Yes (great article btw). The long term macro-economic trends point to more of this. And when you dig into the demographics beneath gross population, it's even more pronounced. The business activity outside of the urban core from the .com era has been reversing itself for about a decade. What was happening in Waltham / Lexington / Bedford is now happening in Cambridge (again) and the Seaport. Even more traditional industries - Converse and Reebok have left the suburbs for the city because of the talent.

IMO some of these companies are soon going to find out that they made a mistake. Housing in Boston is exorbitant and transportation is a disaster and getting worse by the day. These industries rely heavily on young professionals and these people can no longer afford to live in the city. This talent is leaving. It's not just a Boston problem but the problem here is compounded by bad traffic and expensive housing.
They are moving to places like Austin and Raleigh and a few other new smaller cities that are experiencing tech growth. Seattle has many of the same problems that Boston has and as a result its companies are struggling to find enough talent. That should be a warning sign for Boston based companies.


The Austin job market right now is nuts, my company has an office down there and we just can't keep anybody, because the salaries being offered by Dell and the like are way higher than what we are able to pay. Boston isn't too bad right now, but I can see it going the way you note if things don't change, but let's be honest, they are not likely to any time soon.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:19 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Or salary and benefits need to increase commensurate with the cost of living in Boston proper.

It's cheaper to move the jobs to other cities like my company did. They nearly shutdown their presence in the Seaport and moved to Raleigh. A couple thousand jobs evaporated nearly overnight. You don't see that in the news. The Mayor only likes it when it's companies moving in.
 
B752OS
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:49 am

airbazar wrote:
tlecam wrote:
Yes (great article btw). The long term macro-economic trends point to more of this. And when you dig into the demographics beneath gross population, it's even more pronounced. The business activity outside of the urban core from the .com era has been reversing itself for about a decade. What was happening in Waltham / Lexington / Bedford is now happening in Cambridge (again) and the Seaport. Even more traditional industries - Converse and Reebok have left the suburbs for the city because of the talent.

IMO some of these companies are soon going to find out that they made a mistake. Housing in Boston is exorbitant and transportation is a disaster and getting worse by the day. These industries rely heavily on young professionals and these people can no longer afford to live in the city. This talent is leaving. It's not just a Boston problem but the problem here is compounded by bad traffic and expensive housing.
They are moving to places like Austin and Raleigh and a few other new smaller cities that are experiencing tech growth. Seattle has many of the same problems that Boston has and as a result its companies are struggling to find enough talent. That should be a warning sign for Boston based companies.


Austin's traffic is bad, only getting worse, and their public transit options pale in comparison to Boston.
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:06 am

B752OS wrote:
Austin's traffic is bad, only getting worse, and their public transit options pale in comparison to Boston.


But cost of living is much cheaper and they're actually doing something about their public transit:
https://capmetro.org/projectconnect/
The sad thing is Austin will probably have better public transit before our shiny new Orange line trains are fixed :rotfl:
 
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ChrisNH38
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:22 am

A phrase folks in telecom know too well: The Last Mile.

In Boston’s case, that’s the long-hoped-for connection between North and South Stations. While the location of the city center relative to its airport is one of Boston’s selling points, getting to and fro...even WITH the submerged artery...is a chore that has even awoken curmudgeonly Michael Dukakis. He’s prancing about with supposed solutions he’ll never be around to see.
https://my.flightradar24.com/ChrisNH
 
dtremit
Posts: 164
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:16 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
airbazar wrote:
tlecam wrote:
Yes (great article btw). The long term macro-economic trends point to more of this. And when you dig into the demographics beneath gross population, it's even more pronounced. The business activity outside of the urban core from the .com era has been reversing itself for about a decade. What was happening in Waltham / Lexington / Bedford is now happening in Cambridge (again) and the Seaport. Even more traditional industries - Converse and Reebok have left the suburbs for the city because of the talent.

IMO some of these companies are soon going to find out that they made a mistake. Housing in Boston is exorbitant and transportation is a disaster and getting worse by the day. These industries rely heavily on young professionals and these people can no longer afford to live in the city. This talent is leaving. It's not just a Boston problem but the problem here is compounded by bad traffic and expensive housing.
They are moving to places like Austin and Raleigh and a few other new smaller cities that are experiencing tech growth. Seattle has many of the same problems that Boston has and as a result its companies are struggling to find enough talent. That should be a warning sign for Boston based companies.


Or salary and benefits need to increase commensurate with the cost of living in Boston proper.


They already have. People tend to look only at the expense side when assessing cost of living -- but it's far more useful to look at cost of living as a percentage of salary. On that metric, Boston does much better than you would expect.

For people working in tech, Boston is actually slightly more affordable than Raleigh. Yes, the cost of living is higher, but the salaries in Raleigh are much lower. Look at the last chart in this article: https://www.citylab.com/life/2019/09/co ... es/597376/ . I wish I could find a NYT article from a few years ago that presented this a lot better.

That said, we have a serious problem for people who don't work in tech, biotech, finance, law, and a few other highly paid industries.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:13 pm

dtremit wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
airbazar wrote:
IMO some of these companies are soon going to find out that they made a mistake. Housing in Boston is exorbitant and transportation is a disaster and getting worse by the day. These industries rely heavily on young professionals and these people can no longer afford to live in the city. This talent is leaving. It's not just a Boston problem but the problem here is compounded by bad traffic and expensive housing.
They are moving to places like Austin and Raleigh and a few other new smaller cities that are experiencing tech growth. Seattle has many of the same problems that Boston has and as a result its companies are struggling to find enough talent. That should be a warning sign for Boston based companies.


Or salary and benefits need to increase commensurate with the cost of living in Boston proper.


They already have. People tend to look only at the expense side when assessing cost of living -- but it's far more useful to look at cost of living as a percentage of salary. On that metric, Boston does much better than you would expect.

For people working in tech, Boston is actually slightly more affordable than Raleigh. Yes, the cost of living is higher, but the salaries in Raleigh are much lower. Look at the last chart in this article: https://www.citylab.com/life/2019/09/co ... es/597376/ . I wish I could find a NYT article from a few years ago that presented this a lot better.

That said, we have a serious problem for people who don't work in tech, biotech, finance, law, and a few other highly paid industries.


Image

Interesting that Boston Metro is at the top of the list while none of the other leading tech hubs (San Francisco, San Jose, New York, Seattle, Austin) are in the list at all.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:18 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
dtremit wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:

Or salary and benefits need to increase commensurate with the cost of living in Boston proper.


They already have. People tend to look only at the expense side when assessing cost of living -- but it's far more useful to look at cost of living as a percentage of salary. On that metric, Boston does much better than you would expect.

For people working in tech, Boston is actually slightly more affordable than Raleigh. Yes, the cost of living is higher, but the salaries in Raleigh are much lower. Look at the last chart in this article: https://www.citylab.com/life/2019/09/co ... es/597376/ . I wish I could find a NYT article from a few years ago that presented this a lot better.

That said, we have a serious problem for people who don't work in tech, biotech, finance, law, and a few other highly paid industries.


Image

Interesting that Boston Metro is at the top of the list while none of the other leading tech hubs (San Francisco, San Jose, New York, Seattle, Austin) are in the list at all.


Yes quite strange, although they make a caveat to the data by saying it's the top 30 metros with the most tech jobs with salaries. So if the likes of Dell and co in Austin for example, don't put projected salaries in their listings, then they wouldn't count and thus skew the data.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:38 pm

VS4ever wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
dtremit wrote:

They already have. People tend to look only at the expense side when assessing cost of living -- but it's far more useful to look at cost of living as a percentage of salary. On that metric, Boston does much better than you would expect.

For people working in tech, Boston is actually slightly more affordable than Raleigh. Yes, the cost of living is higher, but the salaries in Raleigh are much lower. Look at the last chart in this article: https://www.citylab.com/life/2019/09/co ... es/597376/ . I wish I could find a NYT article from a few years ago that presented this a lot better.

That said, we have a serious problem for people who don't work in tech, biotech, finance, law, and a few other highly paid industries.


Image

Interesting that Boston Metro is at the top of the list while none of the other leading tech hubs (San Francisco, San Jose, New York, Seattle, Austin) are in the list at all.


Yes quite strange, although they make a caveat to the data by saying it's the top 30 metros with the most tech jobs with salaries. So if the likes of Dell and co in Austin for example, don't put projected salaries in their listings, then they wouldn't count and thus skew the data.


The San Diego Tribune (Hired) comes to a completely different conclusion:

Image

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/bu ... s-hope-yet
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:51 pm

dtremit wrote:
For people working in tech, Boston is actually slightly more affordable than Raleigh. Yes, the cost of living is higher, but the salaries in Raleigh are much lower. Look at the last chart in this article: https://www.citylab.com/life/2019/09/co ... es/597376/ . I wish I could find a NYT article from a few years ago that presented this a lot better.

That said, we have a serious problem for people who don't work in tech, biotech, finance, law, and a few other highly paid industries.


That's very deceiving. My company was one that relocated a huge number of tech jobs from the Seaport to Raleigh so i know a lot of people who live down there, some of which are really good friends. There's no way Boston is more affordable. Not in a million years no matter what that website says. Notice they don't show you the details. They're probably comparing the cost of a 1BR apartment in Boston with a 3 BR townhouse in a subdivision with swimming pool in RTP :rotfl: They also don't say that the tech jobs are actually not in Raleigh proper but further out in RTP. They don't say that you can move just 10 miles out of RTP and buy a huge brand new house for less than a condo anywhere inside 128. Sure it's no longer as cheap as it was 10 years ago before everyone decided to move there but is' still a heck of a lot cheaper than Boston and its surroundings.
 
flyby519
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:53 pm

Boston is pretty much strangled by affluent areas and very high priced real estate immediately outside the 128 loop. There used to be enough relatively affordable, and un-gentrified, areas inside the loop where you could find decently affordable housing. Now you're almost forced to go outside the 495 loop to find something. Could a Boston HQ company consider expanding operational type jobs outside 495 for affordable real estate and cheaper living options while keeping everything relatively close by and even allowing for a reverse commute for those living in the city? Easier than setting up RDU/AUS type offsites when you consider travel costs between the two?
 
boeingbus
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:59 pm

airbazar wrote:
dtremit wrote:
For people working in tech, Boston is actually slightly more affordable than Raleigh. Yes, the cost of living is higher, but the salaries in Raleigh are much lower. Look at the last chart in this article: https://www.citylab.com/life/2019/09/co ... es/597376/ . I wish I could find a NYT article from a few years ago that presented this a lot better.

That said, we have a serious problem for people who don't work in tech, biotech, finance, law, and a few other highly paid industries.


That's very deceiving. My company was one that relocated a huge number of tech jobs from the Seaport to Raleigh so i know a lot of people who live down there, some of which are really good friends. There's no way Boston is more affordable. Not in a million years no matter what that website says. Notice they don't show you the details. They're probably comparing the cost of a 1BR apartment in Boston with a 3 BR townhouse in a subdivision with swimming pool in RTP :rotfl: They also don't say that the tech jobs are actually not in Raleigh proper but further out in RTP. They don't say that you can move just 10 miles out of RTP and buy a huge brand new house for less than a condo anywhere inside 128. Sure it's no longer as cheap as it was 10 years ago before everyone decided to move there but is' still a heck of a lot cheaper than Boston and its surroundings.


I also know a lot of people who move south (specifically FL) and after a year they are back in Boston because they couldn't make ends meet. Jobs don't pay as well and that's why housing is cheaper. If you have a job in Boston and leave outside the 128 belt you can have the best of both worlds... nice salary with affordable housing. It's all relative.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
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tlecam
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:15 pm

Some of this is also being driven by a change in ideals. The house, the yard, cars, two cats in the yard (la la la...)... the American Dream is something that was highly desirable for the Greatest Generation and the Boomers, largely spurred by the post WW2 era and the New Deal.

Those things aren’t as highly desirable for the post boomer generations. They tend to value a community that integrates the workplace and personal lives and they highly prioritize convenience. They don’t value big box stores or chain restaurants. I’m 40... I would need more than two hands to count the number of couples I know who got married, had kids, moved to the burbs and then moved back closer in.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:33 pm

boeingbus wrote:
I also know a lot of people who move south (specifically FL) and after a year they are back in Boston because they couldn't make ends meet. Jobs don't pay as well and that's why housing is cheaper. If you have a job in Boston and leave outside the 128 belt you can have the best of both worlds... nice salary with affordable housing. It's all relative.

My comment was specifically regarding RDU.
I'm one of those living outside 495 (That's why i didn't take to offer to move to Raleigh), and my wife commutes to Somerville every day and I used to commute to Boston every day. If you don't mind a 1.5-2 hour drive each way, sure you can do that :) Bu ti can also tell you that kids graduating from College don't want to live outside 495 :)
 
dtremit
Posts: 164
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:30 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
VS4ever wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:


Interesting that Boston Metro is at the top of the list while none of the other leading tech hubs (San Francisco, San Jose, New York, Seattle, Austin) are in the list at all.


Yes quite strange, although they make a caveat to the data by saying it's the top 30 metros with the most tech jobs with salaries. So if the likes of Dell and co in Austin for example, don't put projected salaries in their listings, then they wouldn't count and thus skew the data.


The San Diego Tribune (Hired) comes to a completely different conclusion:

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/bu ... s-hope-yet


They're working from similar unadjusted salary data but making different conclusions about CoL. It might be that one is comparing city centers vs MSA in the other, or that one is comparing only housing costs vs the other considering other factors. I wish I had references, but among the similar studies I've seen, the Hired one is the outlier.

(Edited to add: fair point about the data set, but San Antonio is in the list; I suspect there are more non-Dell tech jobs in Austin than total jobs in San Antonio. I was including it for the Raleigh comparision.)


tlecam wrote:
Some of this is also being driven by a change in ideals. The house, the yard, cars, two cats in the yard (la la la...)... the American Dream is something that was highly desirable for the Greatest Generation and the Boomers, largely spurred by the post WW2 era and the New Deal.

Those things aren’t as highly desirable for the post boomer generations. They tend to value a community that integrates the workplace and personal lives and they highly prioritize convenience. They don’t value big box stores or chain restaurants. I’m 40... I would need more than two hands to count the number of couples I know who got married, had kids, moved to the burbs and then moved back closer in.


+1 on this -- I'm 39 and live in Somerville, and I know a lot of people looking for more space. But the idea of moving past 128 is almost unthinkable for most of them (and the few that have moved did so to make a commute shorter). Good friends of ours just moved to Winchester (after trying to land a successful bid in Belmont and Arlington for a year) and the running joke is to ask them about the weather in New Hampshire.

It's definitely a generational thing. My dad is Silent Generation, and the first thing he did when he had a good salary was move as far outside the city (in his case, Detroit) as he could. He's still there; every time he visits Boston he marvels at how I put up with traffic and parking, and every time I visit him, I marvel at how he can stand driving 15 minutes to buy a loaf of bread :lol:

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