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tlecam
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:42 pm

Norwegian's financial woes continue - they just sold off their bank stake for about $200M. I think they're trying to get cash on hand to get through the winter months.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
RobertS975
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:08 pm

WN's move from Terminal A to B will improve it operational efficiency at Logan. The gates in A that WN has been using are as remote from the runways as any gates at Logan and congestion delays on the tarmac are commonplace. The new gates in B are a quick pop out to the taxiways.
 
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tlecam
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:24 pm

RobertS975 wrote:
WN's move from Terminal A to B will improve it operational efficiency at Logan. The gates in A that WN has been using are as remote from the runways as any gates at Logan and congestion delays on the tarmac are commonplace. The new gates in B are a quick pop out to the taxiways.


I agree - In the Terminal A alley way, I think it's easier to just deal with one airline (and occasionally WestJet).
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:32 pm

tlecam wrote:
Norwegian's financial woes continue - they just sold off their bank stake for about $200M. I think they're trying to get cash on hand to get through the winter months.


DL should go for the death blow and bump up the LGW service.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:52 pm

tlecam wrote:
Norwegian's financial woes continue - they just sold off their bank stake for about $200M. I think they're trying to get cash on hand to get through the winter months.


To be exact: $245m.

https://www.ft.com/content/2fe0447c-c25 ... 6ca66511c9
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:42 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Who is going to eat their hat if JetBlue TATL service DOES NOT happen by Q2 2021? :D

Most of us around here are older than 15 yo so we stopped playing that game a long time ago :)
IMO, B6 will start TATL when and only when they can get the LHR slots that they desire. I don't see B6 starting TATL service without the anchor LHR service that their customers want.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:18 am

adamh8297 wrote:
tlecam wrote:
Norwegian's financial woes continue - they just sold off their bank stake for about $200M. I think they're trying to get cash on hand to get through the winter months.


DL should go for the death blow and bump up the LGW service.


That's not DL's game, if there's a death blow around, it should be BA and a dense 772 from LGW, dump the capacity and price DY out of the market. BA could do this very easily and has done on other routes. I am honestly surprised a little that they haven't done it yet, on essentially a quick turn around long haul route, the only thing stopping them most likely is having the 772 space to do it. But that would kill DY in an instant.

DL are playing a longer game, as i've said, short term, they can grab some extra capacity that i am convinced is there from LGW, the long game is to frustrate B6 and their plans, while providing another option to their customers, if you think about it now, DL will have 4 daily LON-BOS in the summer, on par with BA, albeit 3 to LHR and 1 to LGW, seats are a lot less, because of BA's use of the Whale, but VS is pulling in the 330's next year, with an uptick in premium economy, DL is bringing in the 764 with the new seats to LHR and the 752 to LGW and MAN.

Now we have the following capacity to the UK next summer, assuming nothing else changes at this point.. That's insane...7x daily to LHR now, 2x daily to LGW and 1 each to MAN and EDI... and that's before B6 throws their hat into the ring.

LHR

BA 7.30AM
VS 8.15AM

BA:7:15PM
DL:7:51PM
BA:9:40PM
VS:10:00PM
BA:10:50PM

LGW
DY: 8:35PM
DL: 9:00PM

MAN
DL: 10:00PM

EDI
DL: 10:15PM
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
EK77WNH
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:27 am

Do you think by going to LGW Delta is betting B6 fails in its quest to go to LHR? Of course, we know B6 would LIKE to go to LHR but it doesn’t mean the chips will fall in that direction for them.
Next Trip:
JAL 7-8 BOS-NRT-BOS, 787-9
September
 
Supersarestupid
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:42 am

Tonight was another mess thanks to lack of available outbound routes. NYC had issues as well. Did anyone grab any shots of the Etihad A380 in town on the divert? I don't think they were all parked at 10-12 but we very well might have had 3 whales at the same time. (Though I missed the HiFly sub so that may be old news anyways.)
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:03 pm

VS4ever wrote:
adamh8297 wrote:
tlecam wrote:
Norwegian's financial woes continue - they just sold off their bank stake for about $200M. I think they're trying to get cash on hand to get through the winter months.


DL should go for the death blow and bump up the LGW service.


That's not DL's game, if there's a death blow around, it should be BA and a dense 772 from LGW, dump the capacity and price DY out of the market. BA could do this very easily and has done on other routes. I am honestly surprised a little that they haven't done it yet, on essentially a quick turn around long haul route, the only thing stopping them most likely is having the 772 space to do it. But that would kill DY in an instant.

DL are playing a longer game, as i've said, short term, they can grab some extra capacity that i am convinced is there from LGW, the long game is to frustrate B6 and their plans, while providing another option to their customers, if you think about it now, DL will have 4 daily LON-BOS in the summer, on par with BA, albeit 3 to LHR and 1 to LGW, seats are a lot less, because of BA's use of the Whale, but VS is pulling in the 330's next year, with an uptick in premium economy, DL is bringing in the 764 with the new seats to LHR and the 752 to LGW and MAN.


Here's what i think.
BA hasn't done it because 1) They don't really need to, DY is doing a great job at going out of business all by themselves and 2) They already have a ton of cheap fare capacity as a result of having to supply lots of frequencies for their premium customers. DL/VS are following this strategy as well going by their LF's and Y fares.

As for DL's long term game I'm one of the few who doesn't think B6 has any relevance to it. I think above all DL/VS's long term game is to provide their corporate and premium customers with what they want, and what they want is frequencies and flexibility. The same long term game as BA/AA. One extra daily flight to LHR on top of the existing 7 or 8 from BOS and 20+ from NYC is not the reason why B6 will think twice about starting TATL service on a 160 seat plane. The math just doesn't add-up. For the same reason I don't think 1x daily by DY is of much concern to either of those airline groups. If DY happens to go out of business I think that will be of greater benefit to B6 then to either DL/VS or BA/AA. I personally see B6 and DY as closer competitors than DL and B6 or BA and B6.
 
iyerhari
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:05 pm

tlecam wrote:
RobertS975 wrote:
WN's move from Terminal A to B will improve it operational efficiency at Logan. The gates in A that WN has been using are as remote from the runways as any gates at Logan and congestion delays on the tarmac are commonplace. The new gates in B are a quick pop out to the taxiways.


I agree - In the Terminal A alley way, I think it's easier to just deal with one airline (and occasionally WestJet).

The other issue is access to Terminal B will even get worse especially in the morning hours. Yesterday at 5:50 am EST, access to Terminal B and C was a complete nightmare. Unfortunately the B2 side of B requires you to go through the A concourse section for drop-offs - typically what UA, and now WN would start to use. A is always a breezer and far better than any of the terminals barring E.
 
iyerhari
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:19 pm

airbazar wrote:
VS4ever wrote:
adamh8297 wrote:

DL should go for the death blow and bump up the LGW service.


That's not DL's game, if there's a death blow around, it should be BA and a dense 772 from LGW, dump the capacity and price DY out of the market. BA could do this very easily and has done on other routes. I am honestly surprised a little that they haven't done it yet, on essentially a quick turn around long haul route, the only thing stopping them most likely is having the 772 space to do it. But that would kill DY in an instant.

DL are playing a longer game, as i've said, short term, they can grab some extra capacity that i am convinced is there from LGW, the long game is to frustrate B6 and their plans, while providing another option to their customers, if you think about it now, DL will have 4 daily LON-BOS in the summer, on par with BA, albeit 3 to LHR and 1 to LGW, seats are a lot less, because of BA's use of the Whale, but VS is pulling in the 330's next year, with an uptick in premium economy, DL is bringing in the 764 with the new seats to LHR and the 752 to LGW and MAN.


Here's what i think.
BA hasn't done it because 1) They don't really need to, DY is doing a great job at going out of business all by themselves and 2) They already have a ton of cheap fare capacity as a result of having to supply lots of frequencies for their premium customers. DL/VS are following this strategy as well going by their LF's and Y fares.

As for DL's long term game I'm one of the few who doesn't think B6 has any relevance to it. I think above all DL/VS's long term game is to provide their corporate and premium customers with what they want, and what they want is frequencies and flexibility. The same long term game as BA/AA. One extra daily flight to LHR on top of the existing 7 or 8 from BOS and 20+ from NYC is not the reason why B6 will think twice about starting TATL service on a 160 seat plane. The math just doesn't add-up. For the same reason I don't think 1x daily by DY is of much concern to either of those airline groups. If DY happens to go out of business I think that will be of greater benefit to B6 then to either DL/VS or BA/AA. I personally see B6 and DY as closer competitors than DL and B6 or BA and B6.

Isn't there another two angles here too that is important to consider:

1. FF affiliation especially for business travelers? Folks who are affiliated to *OW will take BA/AA unless there are compelling circumstances mandated by corporate policies or price vantage is too much of a differential. Every mile counts :)
2. Onward connections to Asia mostly - India? I do not know how good or reliable VS onward connections are from LHR if I use BOS-LHR-DEL/BOM (I read an article somewhere in the Times of India a couple of months back that VS is returning back to BOM. For some reason you can find good J class seats to India traveling via LHR cheaper than a direct flight to LHR!
3. I do not know about B6 entry to LHR and the timing - folks who have miles and status typically prefer to use the lounge and grab something quick either at BOS or at LHR. I am not saying that is the only thing that matters but IMO, that is a consideration too.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:19 pm

iyerhari wrote:
tlecam wrote:
RobertS975 wrote:
WN's move from Terminal A to B will improve it operational efficiency at Logan. The gates in A that WN has been using are as remote from the runways as any gates at Logan and congestion delays on the tarmac are commonplace. The new gates in B are a quick pop out to the taxiways.


I agree - In the Terminal A alley way, I think it's easier to just deal with one airline (and occasionally WestJet).

The other issue is access to Terminal B will even get worse especially in the morning hours. Yesterday at 5:50 am EST, access to Terminal B and C was a complete nightmare. Unfortunately the B2 side of B requires you to go through the A concourse section for drop-offs - typically what UA, and now WN would start to use. A is always a breezer and far better than any of the terminals barring E.


At that time in the morning, if you can, go to arrivals instead, so much less painful to deal with. I didn't believe it until i tried it with terminal C a couple of times and it was awesome. Now i know the work is affecting everything, but a lot less traffic going into arrivals than departures at 5.50am

Westjet have reduced their footprint significantly (as testified by the drop in Canadian traffic in recent times), so their impact will be negligible going forward, but having the Terminal to themselves will allow total flexibility as to how to manage their gates and flight portfolio, much better all around.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
tphuang
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:19 pm

airbazar wrote:
VS4ever wrote:
adamh8297 wrote:

DL should go for the death blow and bump up the LGW service.


That's not DL's game, if there's a death blow around, it should be BA and a dense 772 from LGW, dump the capacity and price DY out of the market. BA could do this very easily and has done on other routes. I am honestly surprised a little that they haven't done it yet, on essentially a quick turn around long haul route, the only thing stopping them most likely is having the 772 space to do it. But that would kill DY in an instant.

DL are playing a longer game, as i've said, short term, they can grab some extra capacity that i am convinced is there from LGW, the long game is to frustrate B6 and their plans, while providing another option to their customers, if you think about it now, DL will have 4 daily LON-BOS in the summer, on par with BA, albeit 3 to LHR and 1 to LGW, seats are a lot less, because of BA's use of the Whale, but VS is pulling in the 330's next year, with an uptick in premium economy, DL is bringing in the 764 with the new seats to LHR and the 752 to LGW and MAN.


Here's what i think.
BA hasn't done it because 1) They don't really need to, DY is doing a great job at going out of business all by themselves and 2) They already have a ton of cheap fare capacity as a result of having to supply lots of frequencies for their premium customers. DL/VS are following this strategy as well going by their LF's and Y fares.

As for DL's long term game I'm one of the few who doesn't think B6 has any relevance to it. I think above all DL/VS's long term game is to provide their corporate and premium customers with what they want, and what they want is frequencies and flexibility. The same long term game as BA/AA. One extra daily flight to LHR on top of the existing 7 or 8 from BOS and 20+ from NYC is not the reason why B6 will think twice about starting TATL service on a 160 seat plane. The math just doesn't add-up. For the same reason I don't think 1x daily by DY is of much concern to either of those airline groups. If DY happens to go out of business I think that will be of greater benefit to B6 then to either DL/VS or BA/AA. I personally see B6 and DY as closer competitors than DL and B6 or BA and B6.


B6 will start service at LGW if LHR slots are not available. There is no reason to wait further if you already have the aircraft available.

It's kind of wild to say B6 move into TATL would not affect DL if you look at what they've done in the transcon market. There is a reason AA couldn't sustain A321T on BOS-LAX and DL couldn't sustain D1 service on BOS-SFO. A321LR will likely get a far more premium configuration than what DL/VS currently uses and probably comparable to what BA uses on 747-400. Dumping that much premium capacity will result in huge drop in J fares, which will also have the effect of making premium economy not feasible. Who is going to pay $1500 to 2000 R/T in premium economy if J fares is only slightly higher than that? That will make things really hard for an airline with premium economy seat to sell and low cash reserve like DY. It will also significantly cut into the yield BA/VS get in their premium economy cabin as well as business class. Airlines typically make money on front of the cabin. If they can only charge 4x Y fare in business class cabin instead of 8 to 10x, it's going to push a lot of these routes into red.

I don't see much changes to Y pricing. They are already pretty cheap out of BOS and I think DY is going to get pushed out.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:14 pm

airbazar wrote:
VS4ever wrote:
adamh8297 wrote:

DL should go for the death blow and bump up the LGW service.


That's not DL's game, if there's a death blow around, it should be BA and a dense 772 from LGW, dump the capacity and price DY out of the market. BA could do this very easily and has done on other routes. I am honestly surprised a little that they haven't done it yet, on essentially a quick turn around long haul route, the only thing stopping them most likely is having the 772 space to do it. But that would kill DY in an instant.

DL are playing a longer game, as i've said, short term, they can grab some extra capacity that i am convinced is there from LGW, the long game is to frustrate B6 and their plans, while providing another option to their customers, if you think about it now, DL will have 4 daily LON-BOS in the summer, on par with BA, albeit 3 to LHR and 1 to LGW, seats are a lot less, because of BA's use of the Whale, but VS is pulling in the 330's next year, with an uptick in premium economy, DL is bringing in the 764 with the new seats to LHR and the 752 to LGW and MAN.


Here's what i think.
BA hasn't done it because 1) They don't really need to, DY is doing a great job at going out of business all by themselves and 2) They already have a ton of cheap fare capacity as a result of having to supply lots of frequencies for their premium customers. DL/VS are following this strategy as well going by their LF's and Y fares.

As for DL's long term game I'm one of the few who doesn't think B6 has any relevance to it. I think above all DL/VS's long term game is to provide their corporate and premium customers with what they want, and what they want is frequencies and flexibility. The same long term game as BA/AA. One extra daily flight to LHR on top of the existing 7 or 8 from BOS and 20+ from NYC is not the reason why B6 will think twice about starting TATL service on a 160 seat plane. The math just doesn't add-up. For the same reason I don't think 1x daily by DY is of much concern to either of those airline groups. If DY happens to go out of business I think that will be of greater benefit to B6 then to either DL/VS or BA/AA. I personally see B6 and DY as closer competitors than DL and B6 or BA and B6.


Corporate customers DL/VS have right now might switch to JetBlue ones they start flying to London. In that sense, B6 is relevant to DL as Delta does not want to lose lucrative contracts to JetBlue.
 
ASA
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:54 pm

Just flew in on QR this Sunday ... lots of aircrafts around ... 2 Hainans, SAS, Lufthansa, Iberia, etc. The immigration hall was packed! But just like last time, I was the ONLY person on the Mobile Passport line :biggrin: took me less than a minute to pass Immigration! I hope it stays like this for ever ...

One thing I noticed while waiting for the luggage ... B6 has become the domestic arm of a nice TATL hub. Lots of luggage heading to CLE and RDU (I counted at least 15-20 pieces of each) ... some for DTW, YYZ, YTZ ... and few for MCO and ATL. There was one going to SAN! :thumbsup:
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:04 pm

ASA wrote:
Just flew in on QR this Sunday ... lots of aircrafts around ... 2 Hainans, SAS, Lufthansa, Iberia, etc. The immigration hall was packed! But just like last time, I was the ONLY person on the Mobile Passport line :biggrin: took me less than a minute to pass Immigration! I hope it stays like this for ever ...

One thing I noticed while waiting for the luggage ... B6 has become the domestic arm of a nice TATL hub. Lots of luggage heading to CLE and RDU (I counted at least 15-20 pieces of each) ... some for DTW, YYZ, YTZ ... and few for MCO and ATL. There was one going to SAN! :thumbsup:


Were these all coming from the DOH flight? - QR had been taking some share from EK so far in 2019 from looking at the T-100's.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
dtremit
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:22 pm

tphuang wrote:
Dumping that much premium capacity will result in huge drop in J fares, which will also have the effect of making premium economy not feasible. Who is going to pay $1500 to 2000 R/T in premium economy if J fares is only slightly higher than that? That will make things really hard for an airline with premium economy seat to sell and low cash reserve like DY.


I think "not feasible" is probably a stretch. If you look at the layout of, say, BA's PE cabin, a PE seat only takes up 40% more space than a standard Y seat -- a much smaller space premium than a J seat. In a world where J sells for 4x Y, selling PE for 2x may actually be more profitable.

As for DY, they're already selling PE for 2X Y in many cases, undercutting VS and BA by quite a lot.a

tphuang wrote:
It will also significantly cut into the yield BA/VS get in their premium economy cabin as well as business class. Airlines typically make money on front of the cabin. If they can only charge 4x Y fare in business class cabin instead of 8 to 10x, it's going to push a lot of these routes into red.

I don't see much changes to Y pricing. They are already pretty cheap out of BOS and I think DY is going to get pushed out.


No argument here -- but I think it's a long-overdue wake-up call. BA/VS and others have gotten away with high costs on these routes for years because of a lack of pricing pressure, in a way that just doesn't make sense given the stage lengths.
 
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tlecam
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:54 pm

iyerhari wrote:
tlecam wrote:
RobertS975 wrote:
WN's move from Terminal A to B will improve it operational efficiency at Logan. The gates in A that WN has been using are as remote from the runways as any gates at Logan and congestion delays on the tarmac are commonplace. The new gates in B are a quick pop out to the taxiways.


I agree - In the Terminal A alley way, I think it's easier to just deal with one airline (and occasionally WestJet).

The other issue is access to Terminal B will even get worse especially in the morning hours. Yesterday at 5:50 am EST, access to Terminal B and C was a complete nightmare. Unfortunately the B2 side of B requires you to go through the A concourse section for drop-offs - typically what UA, and now WN would start to use. A is always a breezer and far better than any of the terminals barring E.


I was wondering what the deal was yesterday morning. I was departing from A on the 5:45 and the roadways were a mess. Traffic in the TW tunnel was backed up to Southie, which is where I get on. Terminal A was busy per usual in security, but the roadway outside was bananas.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
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tlecam
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:07 pm

tphuang wrote:
airbazar wrote:
VS4ever wrote:

That's not DL's game, if there's a death blow around, it should be BA and a dense 772 from LGW, dump the capacity and price DY out of the market. BA could do this very easily and has done on other routes. I am honestly surprised a little that they haven't done it yet, on essentially a quick turn around long haul route, the only thing stopping them most likely is having the 772 space to do it. But that would kill DY in an instant.

DL are playing a longer game, as i've said, short term, they can grab some extra capacity that i am convinced is there from LGW, the long game is to frustrate B6 and their plans, while providing another option to their customers, if you think about it now, DL will have 4 daily LON-BOS in the summer, on par with BA, albeit 3 to LHR and 1 to LGW, seats are a lot less, because of BA's use of the Whale, but VS is pulling in the 330's next year, with an uptick in premium economy, DL is bringing in the 764 with the new seats to LHR and the 752 to LGW and MAN.


Here's what i think.
BA hasn't done it because 1) They don't really need to, DY is doing a great job at going out of business all by themselves and 2) They already have a ton of cheap fare capacity as a result of having to supply lots of frequencies for their premium customers. DL/VS are following this strategy as well going by their LF's and Y fares.

As for DL's long term game I'm one of the few who doesn't think B6 has any relevance to it. I think above all DL/VS's long term game is to provide their corporate and premium customers with what they want, and what they want is frequencies and flexibility. The same long term game as BA/AA. One extra daily flight to LHR on top of the existing 7 or 8 from BOS and 20+ from NYC is not the reason why B6 will think twice about starting TATL service on a 160 seat plane. The math just doesn't add-up. For the same reason I don't think 1x daily by DY is of much concern to either of those airline groups. If DY happens to go out of business I think that will be of greater benefit to B6 then to either DL/VS or BA/AA. I personally see B6 and DY as closer competitors than DL and B6 or BA and B6.


B6 will start service at LGW if LHR slots are not available. There is no reason to wait further if you already have the aircraft available.

It's kind of wild to say B6 move into TATL would not affect DL if you look at what they've done in the transcon market. There is a reason AA couldn't sustain A321T on BOS-LAX and DL couldn't sustain D1 service on BOS-SFO. A321LR will likely get a far more premium configuration than what DL/VS currently uses and probably comparable to what BA uses on 747-400. Dumping that much premium capacity will result in huge drop in J fares, which will also have the effect of making premium economy not feasible. Who is going to pay $1500 to 2000 R/T in premium economy if J fares is only slightly higher than that? That will make things really hard for an airline with premium economy seat to sell and low cash reserve like DY. It will also significantly cut into the yield BA/VS get in their premium economy cabin as well as business class. Airlines typically make money on front of the cabin. If they can only charge 4x Y fare in business class cabin instead of 8 to 10x, it's going to push a lot of these routes into red.

I don't see much changes to Y pricing. They are already pretty cheap out of BOS and I think DY is going to get pushed out.


I don't think AirBazaar's point (although he or she can speak for him/herself) wasn't that B6 moving into TATL wouldn't affect DL, but that DL's strategy isn't focused on blocking or debilitating B6's entry into TATL. I do think that DL's strategy is primarily focused on serving its corporate and premium customers (both for their business travel and for leisure travel that they may take). In the context of the broader BOS/RDU/AUS/SJC strategy, that makes sense to me.

THere's no doubt that a new entrant has impact on the existing players and it will remain to be seen what plays out. I do agree that DY will be the first to drop out of the route. I also think that the more likely target for DL and B6 is BA. I also think that some of the traffic that DL and B6 pick up from BA and AA is something of a (very long) reversion to mean. Boston was the lone top 10 statistical area in the US that was not a major hub for a US based airline until B6 and then DL came along, despite prior false starts. F rom an international standpoint, BOS was a point in the network for a lot of the foreign carriers, regardless of the POS origination. I think that both DL and B6 are trying to capitalize on their FF flyer base (at Oneworld / AA's expense) to get more of the BOS POS marketshare. Prices will finally come down as supply growth outpaces demand. They've been printing money on this route for years - especailly in J. I'm sick of paying $6-8K for a 5 hour flight in J.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:14 pm

tlecam wrote:
tphuang wrote:
airbazar wrote:

Here's what i think.
BA hasn't done it because 1) They don't really need to, DY is doing a great job at going out of business all by themselves and 2) They already have a ton of cheap fare capacity as a result of having to supply lots of frequencies for their premium customers. DL/VS are following this strategy as well going by their LF's and Y fares.

As for DL's long term game I'm one of the few who doesn't think B6 has any relevance to it. I think above all DL/VS's long term game is to provide their corporate and premium customers with what they want, and what they want is frequencies and flexibility. The same long term game as BA/AA. One extra daily flight to LHR on top of the existing 7 or 8 from BOS and 20+ from NYC is not the reason why B6 will think twice about starting TATL service on a 160 seat plane. The math just doesn't add-up. For the same reason I don't think 1x daily by DY is of much concern to either of those airline groups. If DY happens to go out of business I think that will be of greater benefit to B6 then to either DL/VS or BA/AA. I personally see B6 and DY as closer competitors than DL and B6 or BA and B6.


B6 will start service at LGW if LHR slots are not available. There is no reason to wait further if you already have the aircraft available.

It's kind of wild to say B6 move into TATL would not affect DL if you look at what they've done in the transcon market. There is a reason AA couldn't sustain A321T on BOS-LAX and DL couldn't sustain D1 service on BOS-SFO. A321LR will likely get a far more premium configuration than what DL/VS currently uses and probably comparable to what BA uses on 747-400. Dumping that much premium capacity will result in huge drop in J fares, which will also have the effect of making premium economy not feasible. Who is going to pay $1500 to 2000 R/T in premium economy if J fares is only slightly higher than that? That will make things really hard for an airline with premium economy seat to sell and low cash reserve like DY. It will also significantly cut into the yield BA/VS get in their premium economy cabin as well as business class. Airlines typically make money on front of the cabin. If they can only charge 4x Y fare in business class cabin instead of 8 to 10x, it's going to push a lot of these routes into red.

I don't see much changes to Y pricing. They are already pretty cheap out of BOS and I think DY is going to get pushed out.


I don't think AirBazaar's point (although he or she can speak for him/herself) wasn't that B6 moving into TATL wouldn't affect DL, but that DL's strategy isn't focused on blocking or debilitating B6's entry into TATL. I do think that DL's strategy is primarily focused on serving its corporate and premium customers (both for their business travel and for leisure travel that they may take). In the context of the broader BOS/RDU/AUS/SJC strategy, that makes sense to me.

THere's no doubt that a new entrant has impact on the existing players and it will remain to be seen what plays out. I do agree that DY will be the first to drop out of the route. I also think that the more likely target for DL and B6 is BA. I also think that some of the traffic that DL and B6 pick up from BA and AA is something of a (very long) reversion to mean. Boston was the lone top 10 statistical area in the US that was not a major hub for a US based airline until B6 and then DL came along, despite prior false starts. F rom an international standpoint, BOS was a point in the network for a lot of the foreign carriers, regardless of the POS origination. I think that both DL and B6 are trying to capitalize on their FF flyer base (at Oneworld / AA's expense) to get more of the BOS POS marketshare. Prices will finally come down as supply growth outpaces demand. They've been printing money on this route for years - especailly in J. I'm sick of paying $6-8K for a 5 hour flight in J.


Do you see BA retaliate and start BOS-AMS/CDG on Level?
Norwegian also could start BOS-AMS. That would make Delta real mad.
 
ilovepabst
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:51 pm

A little birdie told me you'll get a Super80 in BOS today after 2PM
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:22 pm

tlecam wrote:

THere's no doubt that a new entrant has impact on the existing players and it will remain to be seen what plays out. I do agree that DY will be the first to drop out of the route. .


If DY drops BOS - it will be because they no longer exist or completely eliminate transatlantic flying.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:06 pm

iyerhari wrote:
1. FF affiliation especially for business travelers? Folks who are affiliated to *OW will take BA/AA unless there are compelling circumstances mandated by corporate policies or price vantage is too much of a differential. Every mile counts :)

Exactly. Likewise for DL/VS and in the future for B6. It's my belief that these airlines are first and foremost catering to their base rather than competing with eachother.

tphuang wrote:
B6 will start service at LGW if LHR slots are not available. There is no reason to wait further if you already have the aircraft available.

They have aircraft available today and they are still waiting. They don't need the LR for LHR/LGW service. The A321neo has the same range as the 752. Primera proved it. This to me tells me that they are waiting for LHR slots. It's not every day that 5 pairs of good LHR slots come up for sale.

tphuang wrote:
Dumping that much premium capacity will result in huge drop in J fares, which will also have the effect of making premium economy not feasible.

I think you are over estimating the impact, but why is that bad for B6?
Remember, the premise in this thread and others is that DL is adding capacity to scare B6 away. I believe that there is nothing DL can do to scare B6 into not entering the market. The only thing that will scare B6 away is a sharp decline in demand.
But we don't even know what price point B6 will set for their fares. It's only 16 Mint seats per plane and no premium economy. DY dumped a lot more premium capacity on the market (minus flat beds), and it hasn't affected the other airlines.
Yes DL and BA will lose some of those premium passengers who are already B6 customers. There will likely be some overlap for sure but I don't think it's all that's cracked up to be. Flying TATL with no meals and no lounge is not for everyone. Likewise, the opposite is also true. I don't think DL/VS adding routes to LON will have any effect on B6's decision and I think they know that which is why I believe that this DL expansion is more about DL providing better service for their customers. I guess you could argue that they are doing that to keep them from leaving. I'm sure there's a little of that too.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:10 pm

airbazar wrote:
They have aircraft available today and they are still waiting. They don't need the LR for LHR/LGW service. The A321neo has the same range as the 752. Primera proved it. This to me tells me that they are waiting for LHR slots. It's not every day that 5 pairs of good LHR slots come up for sale.


If LHR slots come up for sale, I suppose they go to the highest bidder? JetBlue then better have VERY deep pockets, lest they wanna wait forever.
Perhaps JetBlue can strike a deal with Etihad (after the collapse of JetAirways they are squatting extra slots right now).
Last edited by Dieuwer on Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
tphuang
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:18 pm

airbazar wrote:


They have aircraft available today and they are still waiting. They don't need the LR for LHR/LGW service. The A321neo has the same range as the 752. Primera proved it. This to me tells me that they are waiting for LHR slots. It's not every day that 5 pairs of good LHR slots come up for sale.

They are under the belief that NEO is not sufficient. I happen to disagree but I don't run B6. Even for LR, they are only comfortable with it operating as far as Paris.

I think you are over estimating the impact, but why is that bad for B6?
Remember, the premise in this thread and others is that DL is adding capacity to scare B6 away. I believe that there is nothing DL can do to scare B6 into not entering the market. The only thing that will scare B6 away is a sharp decline in demand.
But we don't even know what price point B6 will set for their fares. It's only 16 Mint seats per plane and no premium economy. DY dumped a lot more premium capacity on the market (minus flat beds), and it hasn't affected the other airlines.
Yes DL and BA will lose some of those premium passengers who are already B6 customers. There will likely be some overlap for sure but I don't think it's all that's cracked up to be. I don't think DL/VS adding routes to LON will have any effect on B6's decision and I think they know that which is why I believe that this DL expansion is more about DL providing better service for their customers. I guess you could argue that they are doing that to keep them from leaving. I'm sure there's a little of that too.


I don't think it's bad for B6, since they can still make money on that kind of fare level. I fully expect their A321LR to be configured to have close to 30 mint seats, which I think will have a pretty large effect on the J and W pricing on BOS-LON when they are planning to have 3 flights a day. I'm sure legacy airlines are watching this development carefully. If you look at this recent study.
https://thepointsguy.com/news/these-10- ... -airlines/
BOS-LON is the second highest revenue TATL market for BA, even more than LAX-LON. I'd be shocked if they don't have a response for DL adding to LGW and B6 entrance.
 
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tlecam
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:49 pm

adamh8297 wrote:
tlecam wrote:

THere's no doubt that a new entrant has impact on the existing players and it will remain to be seen what plays out. I do agree that DY will be the first to drop out of the route. .


If DY drops BOS - it will be because they no longer exist or completely eliminate transatlantic flying.


Yes, 100%. THey're in a very tough financial situation.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:36 pm

tphuang wrote:
airbazar wrote:


They have aircraft available today and they are still waiting. They don't need the LR for LHR/LGW service. The A321neo has the same range as the 752. Primera proved it. This to me tells me that they are waiting for LHR slots. It's not every day that 5 pairs of good LHR slots come up for sale.

They are under the belief that NEO is not sufficient. I happen to disagree but I don't run B6. Even for LR, they are only comfortable with it operating as far as Paris.


I happen to think they are using that as an excuse that no one should believe in at this point :)
At the present there's no reason to believe that the NEO with only 160+ seats can't fly LHR-BOS.
Philippine Airlines flies a standard NEO with 199 seats on MNL-SYD which is 500nm longer than LHR-BOS but without headwinds.:
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... july-2018/
Yes the LR (and XLR) will be a better plane for TATL routes but the standard NEO is no slouch on sub 3,000nm routes with only ~160 seats.
If they really wanted to start now they could then relocate those to domestic use as the LRs start arriving.

As for the 30 Mint seats that makes no sense whatsoever. The aircraft will have to rotate not only thru other European cities but also domestic routes and outside of London I just don't see a market that could handle 30 mint seats.
Last edited by airbazar on Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ASA
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:42 pm

adamh8297 wrote:
ASA wrote:
Just flew in on QR this Sunday ... lots of aircrafts around ... 2 Hainans, SAS, Lufthansa, Iberia, etc. The immigration hall was packed! But just like last time, I was the ONLY person on the Mobile Passport line :biggrin: took me less than a minute to pass Immigration! I hope it stays like this for ever ...

One thing I noticed while waiting for the luggage ... B6 has become the domestic arm of a nice TATL hub. Lots of luggage heading to CLE and RDU (I counted at least 15-20 pieces of each) ... some for DTW, YYZ, YTZ ... and few for MCO and ATL. There was one going to SAN! :thumbsup:


Were these all coming from the DOH flight? - QR had been taking some share from EK so far in 2019 from looking at the T-100's.


Yup - all QR. On our luggage belt only ... I didn't check any other.
And there were some heading for PIT too ... I forgot to mention.

Pleasantly surprised with the connecting volume! :checkmark:
 
tphuang
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:00 pm

airbazar wrote:
tphuang wrote:
airbazar wrote:


They have aircraft available today and they are still waiting. They don't need the LR for LHR/LGW service. The A321neo has the same range as the 752. Primera proved it. This to me tells me that they are waiting for LHR slots. It's not every day that 5 pairs of good LHR slots come up for sale.

They are under the belief that NEO is not sufficient. I happen to disagree but I don't run B6. Even for LR, they are only comfortable with it operating as far as Paris.


I happen to think they are using that as an excuse that no one should believe in at this point :)
At the present there's no reason to believe that the NEO with only 160+ seats can't fly LHR-BOS.
Philippine Airlines flies a standard NEO with 199 seats on MNL-SYD which is 500nm longer than LHR-BOS but without headwinds.:
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... july-2018/
Yes the LR (and XLR) will be a better plane for TATL routes but the standard NEO is no slouch on sub 3,000nm routes with only ~160 seats.
If they really wanted to start now they could then relocate those to domestic use as the LRs start arriving.

As for the 30 Mint seats that makes no sense whatsoever. The aircraft will have to rotate not only thru other European cities but also domestic routes and outside of London I just don't see a market that could handle 30 mint seats.


We will have to see how they do the rotations, but I think the most plausible case is for them to schedule flexible in a way to allow for 1 TATL rotation per day with a spare aircraft at BOS/JFK. I think it's unlikely they will schedule them domestically outside of a possible short turn on a route like BOS-DCA. JetBlue have said for a long time they wished the original mint had more premium seat than 16. Every indication has been A321LR will be very premium configured.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:08 pm

tphuang wrote:
airbazar wrote:
tphuang wrote:
They are under the belief that NEO is not sufficient. I happen to disagree but I don't run B6. Even for LR, they are only comfortable with it operating as far as Paris.


I happen to think they are using that as an excuse that no one should believe in at this point :)
At the present there's no reason to believe that the NEO with only 160+ seats can't fly LHR-BOS.
Philippine Airlines flies a standard NEO with 199 seats on MNL-SYD which is 500nm longer than LHR-BOS but without headwinds.:
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... july-2018/
Yes the LR (and XLR) will be a better plane for TATL routes but the standard NEO is no slouch on sub 3,000nm routes with only ~160 seats.
If they really wanted to start now they could then relocate those to domestic use as the LRs start arriving.

As for the 30 Mint seats that makes no sense whatsoever. The aircraft will have to rotate not only thru other European cities but also domestic routes and outside of London I just don't see a market that could handle 30 mint seats.


We will have to see how they do the rotations, but I think the most plausible case is for them to schedule flexible in a way to allow for 1 TATL rotation per day with a spare aircraft at BOS/JFK. I think it's unlikely they will schedule them domestically outside of a possible short turn on a route like BOS-DCA. JetBlue have said for a long time they wished the original mint had more premium seat than 16. Every indication has been A321LR will be very premium configured.


Not sure if there would be Mint demand to Bermuda, but they could do BOS-LHR-BOS-BDA-BOS-LHR-BOS. Even if weekend service only. The other days of the week it could rotate over DCA.
 
jworks158
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:16 pm

Yesterday an Etihad A380 diverted to BOS, photos: https://twitter.com/theOrangetechie/status/1163791493804507136?s=20

Red Arrows Photos: https://twitter.com/theOrangetechie/status/1163592355842338816?s=20

Also an AA MD-80 came to BOS today, and will be departing tomorrow.
(A359,A343/A346,A332,A319/320/321,A220-100)(B788,B772,B762,B752,B744/B748,B732/B737/B738,B717)(E190,E145)(CRJ100/200, Dash 8-200)(MD-83)
JB,UA(C5,EV,CHQ,AX),AA(EGF,ZW,AX,PT),DL(OH,YX),FL,WN,LH,BA,AF,AZ,IB,VX,CO
https://my.flightradar24.com/theorangetechie
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:26 pm

tphuang wrote:
We will have to see how they do the rotations, but I think the most plausible case is for them to schedule flexible in a way to allow for 1 TATL rotation per day with a spare aircraft at BOS/JFK. I think it's unlikely they will schedule them domestically outside of a possible short turn on a route like BOS-DCA. JetBlue have said for a long time they wished the original mint had more premium seat than 16. Every indication has been A321LR will be very premium configured.

I think we will see the same exact aircraft used on TATL, rotate thru all the Mint routes from BOS/JFK.
I agree that 16 seats is too few even for some existing Mint routes, but I think 30 is too many.
I think we will see a config closer to BA with 23.
https://seatguru.com/airlines/British_A ... A321_C.php
Note that both TAP and EI chose to stay with only 16 "Mint" seats.
https://seatguru.com/airlines/TAP_Portu ... A321LR.php
https://seatguru.com/airlines/Aer_Lingu ... A321LR.php
The conundrum for B6, IMO is that BOS-LHR is likely to be the only TATL route from BOS where they can fill 30 Mint seats, 2x day. There are ways around that. They can route the premium heavy aircraft in a W pattern: JFK-LHR-BOS-LHR-JFK, or they can route it to/from LAX (LAX-BOS-LHR-BOS-LAX), which is likely to be another route where they can fill 30 Mint seats. But with all of these question marks and considerations we can see why they are taking so long to start flying.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:04 pm

airbazar wrote:
tphuang wrote:
We will have to see how they do the rotations, but I think the most plausible case is for them to schedule flexible in a way to allow for 1 TATL rotation per day with a spare aircraft at BOS/JFK. I think it's unlikely they will schedule them domestically outside of a possible short turn on a route like BOS-DCA. JetBlue have said for a long time they wished the original mint had more premium seat than 16. Every indication has been A321LR will be very premium configured.

I think we will see the same exact aircraft used on TATL, rotate thru all the Mint routes from BOS/JFK.
I agree that 16 seats is too few even for some existing Mint routes, but I think 30 is too many.
I think we will see a config closer to BA with 23.


Probably: 16 + n(2 + 4). So, my bet is either 22 or 28 Mint seats.
 
jsteeves3
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:56 am

I don't think AA is entirely over with BOS

https://www.caymancompass.com/2019/08/1 ... to-boston/

New (resumption?) of service to GCM on 738 aircraft Sat. only. Begins Jan. 11th and runs through April 6th
 
Bluewho
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:01 am

airbazar wrote:
tphuang wrote:
We will have to see how they do the rotations, but I think the most plausible case is for them to schedule flexible in a way to allow for 1 TATL rotation per day with a spare aircraft at BOS/JFK. I think it's unlikely they will schedule them domestically outside of a possible short turn on a route like BOS-DCA. JetBlue have said for a long time they wished the original mint had more premium seat than 16. Every indication has been A321LR will be very premium configured.

I think we will see the same exact aircraft used on TATL, rotate thru all the Mint routes from BOS/JFK.
I agree that 16 seats is too few even for some existing Mint routes, but I think 30 is too many.
I think we will see a config closer to BA with 23.
https://seatguru.com/airlines/British_A ... A321_C.php
Note that both TAP and EI chose to stay with only 16 "Mint" seats.
https://seatguru.com/airlines/TAP_Portu ... A321LR.php
https://seatguru.com/airlines/Aer_Lingu ... A321LR.php
The conundrum for B6, IMO is that BOS-LHR is likely to be the only TATL route from BOS where they can fill 30 Mint seats, 2x day. There are ways around that. They can route the premium heavy aircraft in a W pattern: JFK-LHR-BOS-LHR-JFK, or they can route it to/from LAX (LAX-BOS-LHR-BOS-LAX), which is likely to be another route where they can fill 30 Mint seats. But with all of these question marks and considerations we can see why they are taking so long to start flying.




Nope

There will be a different configuration for the 321LRs
They will not be the same as domestic mint.
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:04 pm

jsteeves3 wrote:
I don't think AA is entirely over with BOS

https://www.caymancompass.com/2019/08/1 ... to-boston/

New (resumption?) of service to GCM on 738 aircraft Sat. only. Begins Jan. 11th and runs through April 6th


PMUS served it 2008-2010 so it's a resumption. I don't think AA served it at Boston peak. Why not try a zero competition route with the spare Saturday plane like BOS-ANU instead?
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:15 pm

Bluewho wrote:
Nope
There will be a different configuration for the 321LRs
They will not be the same as domestic mint.


We know it's going to be a different config. That much was announced. The question is how many "premium" seats they will have and I'm not sure that even the decision makers at B6 know that yet.
However I will be shocked if these "intl A321's" don't rotate thru domestic routes too. Just about every airline does that. DL for example has inbound planes come in from DTW, SLC, LAX and then continue on their TATL routes. Otherwise the aircraft utilization would be really poor. Factor in the cost of acquiring new planes plus the cost of LHR slots, and it'd be crazy to think that B6 would be dedicating the fleet strictly for TATL service.
 
aaflyer777
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:33 pm

jsteeves3 wrote:
I don't think AA is entirely over with BOS

https://www.caymancompass.com/2019/08/1 ... to-boston/

New (resumption?) of service to GCM on 738 aircraft Sat. only. Begins Jan. 11th and runs through April 6th


Interesting add but I wouldn't read into it too much. AA runs a bunch of P2P Caribbean routes from BOS on Saturdays, just a way for them to use a spare 737
 
FGITD
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:12 am

Avoiding the other thread due to a rise of fanboyism, but read something interesting.

AA applied for Flights to Tokyo using an md11 at some point? Anyone know more?

What an interesting trajectory AA could have taken in Boston had that route started.
 
Bluewho
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:14 am

airbazar wrote:
Bluewho wrote:
Nope
There will be a different configuration for the 321LRs
They will not be the same as domestic mint.


We know it's going to be a different config. That much was announced. The question is how many "premium" seats they will have and I'm not sure that even the decision makers at B6 know that yet.
However I will be shocked if these "intl A321's" don't rotate thru domestic routes too. Just about every airline does that. DL for example has inbound planes come in from DTW, SLC, LAX and then continue on their TATL routes. Otherwise the aircraft utilization would be really poor. Factor in the cost of acquiring new planes plus the cost of LHR slots, and it'd be crazy to think that B6 would be dedicating the fleet strictly for TATL service.




I’m sure they could but most likely they will just be for TATL. From what I understand the mint seat config will not be the same at all, as well as more EML seats vs what is on the current mint configuration.
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:44 am

FGITD wrote:
Avoiding the other thread due to a rise of fanboyism, but read something interesting.

AA applied for Flights to Tokyo using an md11 at some point? Anyone know more?

What an interesting trajectory AA could have taken in Boston had that route started.


Yes, just before 9/11 AA had applied for BOS-NRT but I'm pretty sure it was to be with a 772. In 2001 the MD-11's were all but gone. I did a quick google check and it appears that the last flight of an AA MD-11 was October 2001.
 
hinckley
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:50 am

FGITD wrote:
Avoiding the other thread due to a rise of fanboyism, but read something interesting. AA applied for Flights to Tokyo using an md11 at some point? Anyone know more?

AA did announce NRT on the MD11 just before 9/11, but the route was never started after the resulting passenger drop-off. The internet boom was still going strong in those days and there were huge venture capital and B2B relationships between the 128 and Japan tech sectors at the time.
 
hinckley
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:52 am

airbazar wrote:
Yes, just before 9/11 AA had applied for BOS-NRT but I'm pretty sure it was to be with a 772. In 2001 the MD-11's were all but gone. I did a quick google check and it appears that the last flight of an AA MD-11 was October 2001.

Are you sure about that? I distinctly remember being excited that I'd finally get to fly the MD11 and was disappointed when the route was pulled.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:05 pm

hinckley wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Yes, just before 9/11 AA had applied for BOS-NRT but I'm pretty sure it was to be with a 772. In 2001 the MD-11's were all but gone. I did a quick google check and it appears that the last flight of an AA MD-11 was October 2001.

Are you sure about that? I distinctly remember being excited that I'd finally get to fly the MD11 and was disappointed when the route was pulled.


not always the best source, but airfleets.net list what happened to all the AA MD11's right here. They were all ultimately sent to FX apart from 2
https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Ame ... y-md11.htm
airbazar is right, the majority were gone by 2001, however the last 3 were transferred in June 2002 (dates are Euro style dates, not US way)
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:29 pm

VS4ever wrote:
hinckley wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Yes, just before 9/11 AA had applied for BOS-NRT but I'm pretty sure it was to be with a 772. In 2001 the MD-11's were all but gone. I did a quick google check and it appears that the last flight of an AA MD-11 was October 2001.

Are you sure about that? I distinctly remember being excited that I'd finally get to fly the MD11 and was disappointed when the route was pulled.


not always the best source, but airfleets.net list what happened to all the AA MD11's right here. They were all ultimately sent to FX apart from 2
https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Ame ... y-md11.htm
airbazar is right, the majority were gone by 2001, however the last 3 were transferred in June 2002 (dates are Euro style dates, not US way)


Google can be your friend :)
viewtopic.php?t=109521
October 13th 2001 was the last flight.
 
hinckley
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:36 pm

airbazar wrote:
Google can be your friend :)
viewtopic.php?t=109521
October 13th 2001 was the last flight.

Wow. I was sure it was announced as an MD11 route and wondered whether the type's retirement may have been accelerated by 9/11. But that announcement was far too close to 9/11. The decision must have already been in the works. Thanks for setting me straight.
 
hinckley
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:46 pm

hinckley wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Google can be your friend :)
viewtopic.php?t=109521
October 13th 2001 was the last flight.

Wow. I was sure it was announced as an MD11 route and wondered whether the type's retirement may have been accelerated by 9/11. But that announcement was far too close to 9/11. The decision must have already been in the works. Thanks for setting me straight.

I'm stuck on this because I have such a strong recollection. Take a look at our friend from NH's post #20 in this 15 year old thread. viewtopic.php?t=249413
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:42 pm

hinckley wrote:
hinckley wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Google can be your friend :)
viewtopic.php?t=109521
October 13th 2001 was the last flight.

Wow. I was sure it was announced as an MD11 route and wondered whether the type's retirement may have been accelerated by 9/11. But that announcement was far too close to 9/11. The decision must have already been in the works. Thanks for setting me straight.

I'm stuck on this because I have such a strong recollection. Take a look at our friend from NH's post #20 in this 15 year old thread. viewtopic.php?t=249413

It could have been originally filed as an MD-11. Airlines change equipment all the time after the original route application. But I'm pretty sure that it was eventually changed to 772 but we'll never know for sure because it never operated. Nevertheless the timing just doesn't seem right for an MD-11 given the date of the last MD-11 flight.
 
13ifs40
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Re: Boston Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:40 pm

Good Afternoon all

AA use to run an MD-11 on a routeing of BOS-SJC-NRT for a very brief time during the early nineties. The Period would be at some point between 1992-1994. The plane would overnight at the old AA hanger.


13ifs40

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