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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:29 am

Although posters here are emphasizing that United's newly ordered A321 XLR's will be deployed at at IAD and EWR...
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1436217
...the Chicago Business Journal reports that the United Chief Commercial Officer, Andrew Nocella, has said that the plane might also show up on some international routes flown out of UA's largest hub, O'Hare.
https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/new ... plane.html

ORD's lone UA trans-Atlantic (seasonal) 757 route, ORD-EDI , will likely transition to this 757 replacement (unless its upgraded to 767 - who knows?).
I'm curious whether there'd be any other near-Europe flights from Chicago that might be in play with these new XLR's from 2024 on?
MAN seems like a possibility.. or GLA... or an Irish destination? Others?
 
timberwolf24
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:46 am

Would the 321XLR be able to do ORD-HAM/DUS/OSL/GVA?
Living in LA, ORD/MDW will always be home!
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:46 am

yeogeo wrote:
Although posters here are emphasizing that United's newly ordered A321 XLR's will be deployed at at IAD and EWR...
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1436217
...the Chicago Business Journal reports that the United Chief Commercial Officer, Andrew Nocella, has said that the plane might also show up on some international routes flown out of UA's largest hub, O'Hare.
https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/new ... plane.html

ORD's lone UA trans-Atlantic (seasonal) 757 route, ORD-EDI , will likely transition to this 757 replacement (unless its upgraded to 767 - who knows?).
I'm curious whether there'd be any other near-Europe flights from Chicago that might be in play with these new XLR's from 2024 on?
MAN seems like a possibility.. or GLA... or an Irish destination? Others?


I suspect ORD-MAN is likely to be filled prior to the introduction of the A321-XLR in 2024 - but it is certainly not impossible that we see this aircraft on the route in the fullness of time.
 
Planeboy17
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:22 am

ORD's lone UA trans-Atlantic (seasonal) 757 route, ORD-EDI , will likely transition to this 757 replacement (unless its upgraded to 767 - who knows?).

UA also uses a 757 to DUB also, unless there’s been a change for S20.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:28 pm

Revised FAA ORD airport diagram released yesterday (5 Dec).
I’ve arranged the previous diagram on left and the now current diagram on right for easier comparison.

Image

Notice on north side of the field changes to Delta taxiway (now nearly complete) and taxiways north of the “scenic hold pad”, including a new holding pad, “Orchard”.

Elsewhere, The deicing pads are now officially the “Central Deicing Facility” and we see additions to pavement and revisions to taxiways both east of T-5 and east of the Southeast Cargo Ramp.

Copying the diagrams as I have has made them a bit blurry - sorry. You may want to consult the originals:

https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1913/0016 ... ddest=(ORD)

https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1913/comp ... ad_cmp.pdf
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:50 pm

yeogeo wrote:
ORD's lone UA trans-Atlantic (seasonal) 757 route, ORD-EDI , will likely transition to this 757 replacement (unless its upgraded to 767 - who knows?).
I'm curious whether there'd be any other near-Europe flights from Chicago that might be in play with these new XLR's from 2024 on?
MAN seems like a possibility.. or GLA... or an Irish destination? Others?


Planeboy17 wrote:
UA also uses a 757 to DUB also, unless there’s been a change for S20.


You're right! I completely forgot about the seasonal DUB route.
...I looked up UA 980 and it remains a 757 for Spring 2020.

timberwolf24 wrote:
Would the 321XLR be able to do ORD-HAM/DUS/OSL/GVA?

From admittedly preliminary stats...
see here for example: https://simpleflying.com/the-boeing-797 ... s-a321xlr/
...it seems that it should be able to fly these missions you mention. Hamburg is 3700 nmi from ORD, whereas the above source gives the XLR a range of 4700 nmi.
Maybe someone with more a/c capability chops than I can chime in.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:34 pm

In what seems to me an extreme example of the Visiting Friends and Relatives category, Viva Aerobus starts today its set of flights from O'Hare for the holiday season.

Operating only from 7 December to the 13th of January, the new routes include daily service to Guadalajara; 3x weekly service to Morelia and 2x weekly services to Leon, Monterrey and Zacatecas, all using an Airbus A320 with 180 seats.



Feliz Navidad A-Net! :santahat:
 
Mexicana757
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:20 pm

yeogeo wrote:
In what seems to me an extreme example of the Visiting Friends and Relatives category, Viva Aerobus starts today its set of flights from O'Hare for the holiday season.

Operating only from 7 December to the 13th of January, the new routes include daily service to Guadalajara; 3x weekly service to Morelia and 2x weekly services to Leon, Monterrey and Zacatecas, all using an Airbus A320 with 180 seats.



Feliz Navidad A-Net! :santahat:


Volaris also added capacity on routes it competes out of MDW. The added capacity at MDW will operate between the same dates as Viva and will all be operated on A320 equipment.

GDL- daily to 9x weekly
MLM- daily to 12 weekly
BJX- 4x weekly to 6x weekly
ZCL- 4x weekly to 6x weekly
AGU- 2x weekly to 3x weekly (this change will stay year round)
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:15 pm

Mexicana757 wrote:
yeogeo wrote:
In what seems to me an extreme example of the Visiting Friends and Relatives category, Viva Aerobus starts today its set of flights from O'Hare for the holiday season...


Volaris also added capacity on routes it competes out of MDW. The added capacity at MDW will operate between the same dates as Viva and will all be operated on A320 equipment.

GDL- daily to 9x weekly
MLM- daily to 12 weekly
BJX- 4x weekly to 6x weekly
ZCL- 4x weekly to 6x weekly
AGU- 2x weekly to 3x weekly (this change will stay year round)


Thanks for that, Mexicana. Interesting. Must be quite the demand during that time period.
For VivaAerobus, a scheduled set of seasonal flying taking place over only 38 days (and not carring on with less frequency during the rest of the year)seems remarkable.
 
CleSyrRoc
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:28 am

YeoGeo, Thanks for the routine updates on the airport diagram, always cool to see
1) What is the deal with the expansion of the apron at the SE cargo complex? Is that just a conversion of pavement that was already there to aircraft parking stands?

2) It will be interesting to see what becomes of this new "Orchard" hold pad with time, thats one of the only areas on the airport left for new stuff to be developed.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:00 pm

Re: changes to the FAA diagram above...
CleSyrRoc wrote:
What is the deal with the expansion of the apron at the SE cargo complex? Is that just a conversion of pavement that was already there to aircraft parking stands?

Don't know... perhaps one of these posters who have first hand knowledge of that area can explain.
gabik001 wrote:
airstatdfw wrote:

Any info on this guys?

CleSyrRoc wrote:
It will be interesting to see what becomes of this new "Orchard" hold pad with time, thats one of the only areas on the airport left for new stuff to be developed.

:checkmark:
 
gabik001
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:37 am

From my observation it might be holding pad for those freighters that just getting in SE cargo ramp. There is a only narrow single twy near UPS terminal and during peak time for cargo operations some of freighters that just arrived (NCA, China Cargo, UPS, Atlas, Lufthansa Cargo, Aerologic) needs to hold somewhere on taxiways which might produce some traffic for regular pax operations. And delays obviously.
Canon 50D gripped + Canon 70D + 17-40 L + 24-105 L IS + 50 f/1.8 STM + 100-400L IS USM + Sigma 150-600 S
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:26 pm

Crain's Chicago Business has published an article that raises concerns about O'Hare's growth rate this year being below the average, making it more difficult to fund the expansion.

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/transpo ... -gut-check

The crux of the matter is whether this slower growth rate is just a blip or a trend.
"The latest data comes from a variety of government and industry sources. It indicates year-to-year passenger growth for the nine months ended Sept. 30 was just 1.68 percent. That's well below the 4.56 percent in the year-earlier period and less than half the airport's average growth in the past five years...[the] results are below the roughly 2 to 3 percent annual growth the city is projecting to pay the bills for the terminal expansion, via ticket taxes on flyers and landing fees on airlines."

There's also a pod cast with the author of the article (first 8 minutes) :
https://wgnradio.com/2019/12/09/crains- ... for-ohare/
 
Crosswind787
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:42 pm

yeogeo wrote:
Crain's Chicago Business has published an article that raises concerns about O'Hare's growth rate this year being below the average, making it more difficult to fund the expansion.

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/transpo ... -gut-check

The crux of the matter is whether this slower growth rate is just a blip or a trend.
"The latest data comes from a variety of government and industry sources. It indicates year-to-year passenger growth for the nine months ended Sept. 30 was just 1.68 percent. That's well below the 4.56 percent in the year-earlier period and less than half the airport's average growth in the past five years...[the] results are below the roughly 2 to 3 percent annual growth the city is projecting to pay the bills for the terminal expansion, via ticket taxes on flyers and landing fees on airlines."

There's also a pod cast with the author of the article (first 8 minutes) :
https://wgnradio.com/2019/12/09/crains- ... for-ohare/


I was just going to post the wgn podcast you beat me to it. My question is doesnt the flat growth fall on the airlines to connect more people through ORD / using larger aircraft rather than just local O&D being responsible? If the airlines want new/nicer facilities then dont they need to make the effort to push more connecting pax through to generate more fees? Maybe UA needs to follow AA and shift more flights away from 50-seaters.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:18 pm

Crosswind787 wrote:
yeogeo wrote:
Crain's Chicago Business has published an article that raises concerns about O'Hare's growth rate this year being below the average, making it more difficult to fund the expansion.

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/transpo ... -gut-check

The crux of the matter is whether this slower growth rate is just a blip or a trend.
"The latest data comes from a variety of government and industry sources. It indicates year-to-year passenger growth for the nine months ended Sept. 30 was just 1.68 percent. That's well below the 4.56 percent in the year-earlier period and less than half the airport's average growth in the past five years...[the] results are below the roughly 2 to 3 percent annual growth the city is projecting to pay the bills for the terminal expansion, via ticket taxes on flyers and landing fees on airlines."

There's also a pod cast with the author of the article (first 8 minutes) :
https://wgnradio.com/2019/12/09/crains- ... for-ohare/


I was just going to post the wgn podcast you beat me to it. My question is doesnt the flat growth fall on the airlines to connect more people through ORD / using larger aircraft rather than just local O&D being responsible? If the airlines want new/nicer facilities then dont they need to make the effort to push more connecting pax through to generate more fees? Maybe UA needs to follow AA and shift more flights away from 50-seaters.


That’s a good point. UA in particular needs to do some major upgauging. The amount of RJs (50 seaters in particular) currently serving is unacceptable.

That said, I can see why facilities are a constraint to growth. Pretty much all of Terminals 1, 2 and 3 are extremely out of date and need to be replaced with newer and additional gates with bigger holdrooms that can accommodate more mainline aircraft.
 
ckfred
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:46 pm

The $64,000 question for ORD is when the ATS system will resume operations. Neither the City nor the primary contractor will give a completion date, since the prior dates were all wrong. The system was never supposed to go into full shutdown for any extended period of time. Last spring, the plan was to have it open for the Thanksgiving/Christmas/New Year's travel periods.

I think part of the reason for a lower-than-expected increase in travel is that people are avoiding ORD, if they want to park in one of the economy lots. It would be interesting to know if MDW has seen greater that expected travel numbers, since the ATS was shut down.

For people connecting through Terminal 5, the bus connection makes what can be a tight connection (late arrivals, long lines at security, long lines at immigration and customs) even tighter, when traffic is bad. I've read that people who normally fly to the U.S. from Europe and Asia and connect at ORD are using alternative hub airports with better arrangements for connecting passengers. You have to wonder if some people will not return to ORD, once the ATS resumes operations.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:18 pm

ckfred wrote:
The $64,000 question for ORD is when the ATS system will resume operations. Neither the City nor the primary contractor will give a completion date, since the prior dates were all wrong. The system was never supposed to go into full shutdown for any extended period of time. Last spring, the plan was to have it open for the Thanksgiving/Christmas/New Year's travel periods.

I think part of the reason for a lower-than-expected increase in travel is that people are avoiding ORD, if they want to park in one of the economy lots. It would be interesting to know if MDW has seen greater that expected travel numbers, since the ATS was shut down.

For people connecting through Terminal 5, the bus connection makes what can be a tight connection (late arrivals, long lines at security, long lines at immigration and customs) even tighter, when traffic is bad. I've read that people who normally fly to the U.S. from Europe and Asia and connect at ORD are using alternative hub airports with better arrangements for connecting passengers. You have to wonder if some people will not return to ORD, once the ATS resumes operations.


The real $64,000 question is why is it taking so long for the OGT project to start? That is going to solve almost all of the problems ORD faces, yet, we are still almost 3 years away from even the satellites starting. Construction needs to start now.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:52 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
...Pretty much all of Terminals 1, 2 and 3 are extremely out of date and need to be replaced with newer and additional gates with bigger holdrooms that can accommodate more mainline aircraft.


Et voila!
Image
https://www.archdaily.com/913991/studio ... um=gallery

BNAMealer wrote:
The real $64,000 question is why is it taking so long for the OGT project to start? That is going to solve almost all of the problems ORD faces, yet, we are still almost 3 years away from even the satellites starting. Construction needs to start now.


Actually, a good portion of O'Hare's problems are being remedied by the runway additions, extensions now nearing completion.
The Terminal 5 expansion has always been planned to come before the Global Terminal and the construction is underway east of T-5 now.
Satellite terminals are to come next and, in a way, the preliminary work, although not very sexy, has been started: the removal of tons of water in the existing holding pond by way of tunneling south, under active runways, to a newer holding pond out of the way of the new terminals.

But then, I suspect you are quite aware of all of this and are just venting some frustration.... Patience, Grasshopper :old:
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:16 am

yeogeo wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
...Pretty much all of Terminals 1, 2 and 3 are extremely out of date and need to be replaced with newer and additional gates with bigger holdrooms that can accommodate more mainline aircraft.


Et voila!
Image
https://www.archdaily.com/913991/studio ... um=gallery

BNAMealer wrote:
The real $64,000 question is why is it taking so long for the OGT project to start? That is going to solve almost all of the problems ORD faces, yet, we are still almost 3 years away from even the satellites starting. Construction needs to start now.


Actually, a good portion of O'Hare's problems are being remedied by the runway additions, extensions now nearing completion.
The Terminal 5 expansion has always been planned to come before the Global Terminal and the construction is underway east of T-5 now.
Satellite terminals are to come next and, in a way, the preliminary work, although not very sexy, has been started: the removal of tons of water in the existing holding pond by way of tunneling south, under active runways, to a newer holding pond out of the way of the new terminals.

But then, I suspect you are quite aware of all of this and are just venting some frustration.... Patience, Grasshopper :old:


Indeed the runways have been fantastically reconfigured, but they can start on the terminal redevelopment while finishing that. My point is construction on satellites should be starting next summer and they shouldn’t be dilly dallying on this project, given ORD’s status as a critical hub. I don’t see any reason why they need another 2-3 years to finish the design.
 
wn676
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:56 am

BNAMealer wrote:
yeogeo wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
...Pretty much all of Terminals 1, 2 and 3 are extremely out of date and need to be replaced with newer and additional gates with bigger holdrooms that can accommodate more mainline aircraft.


Et voila!
Image
https://www.archdaily.com/913991/studio ... um=gallery

BNAMealer wrote:
The real $64,000 question is why is it taking so long for the OGT project to start? That is going to solve almost all of the problems ORD faces, yet, we are still almost 3 years away from even the satellites starting. Construction needs to start now.


Actually, a good portion of O'Hare's problems are being remedied by the runway additions, extensions now nearing completion.
The Terminal 5 expansion has always been planned to come before the Global Terminal and the construction is underway east of T-5 now.
Satellite terminals are to come next and, in a way, the preliminary work, although not very sexy, has been started: the removal of tons of water in the existing holding pond by way of tunneling south, under active runways, to a newer holding pond out of the way of the new terminals.

But then, I suspect you are quite aware of all of this and are just venting some frustration.... Patience, Grasshopper :old:


Indeed the runways have been fantastically reconfigured, but they can start on the terminal redevelopment while finishing that. My point is construction on satellites should be starting next summer and they shouldn’t be dilly dallying on this project, given ORD’s status as a critical hub. I don’t see any reason why they need another 2-3 years to finish the design.


Due diligence is not dilly dallying. They’re still working through design assumptions, and that isn’t necessarily something you want to rush. Otherwise you might end up spending billions on a facility that is just as dysfunctional as what it’s replacing.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
ORDfan
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:51 am

Just want to broach the subject of ride-sharing at ORD. I refuse to use uber or lyft for pickups at ORD, and have reverted back to taking taxi's at ground level - there's rarely a wait and fares are within 10% of uber/lyft rates to my neck of the woods (NW side). I will use them at other airports, however.

Anyway, LGA has a good setup with a staging area inside their main parking garage. MSY has a similar setup now too. The ride-share cars can park on/near those floor(s), and basically pull up once summoned. Sure it's a longer walk away from the terminal, but a much shorter wait once getting to the staging area.

Is there any discussion about something like this happening at ORD? It would be so easy to implement within the existing main garage. I think this needs to happen ASAP, because the traffic around the current staging areas on the departure deck are insane. Not to mention that the last time I used it, the wait took forever as the cars had to drive from the remote lot on Balmoral.

How do we make this happen with the CDA?
 
muralir
Posts: 128
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:55 pm

yeogeo wrote:
Crain's Chicago Business has published an article that raises concerns about O'Hare's growth rate this year being below the average, making it more difficult to fund the expansion.

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/transpo ... -gut-check

The crux of the matter is whether this slower growth rate is just a blip or a trend.
"The latest data comes from a variety of government and industry sources. It indicates year-to-year passenger growth for the nine months ended Sept. 30 was just 1.68 percent. That's well below the 4.56 percent in the year-earlier period and less than half the airport's average growth in the past five years...[the] results are below the roughly 2 to 3 percent annual growth the city is projecting to pay the bills for the terminal expansion, via ticket taxes on flyers and landing fees on airlines."

There's also a pod cast with the author of the article (first 8 minutes) :
https://wgnradio.com/2019/12/09/crains- ... for-ohare/


I think Crains has it backwards. Growth has slowed due to the terminals (esp T5) bursting at the seams. The runway reconfig reduced runway congestion and so we saw good growth rates for several years until we hit terminal constraints. The reduced growth rate in a good economy gives *more* support to expanding the airport, not less.

I bet you UA would love to expand at ORD, as they're facing significant constraints at EWR. Ideally they probably want to convert EWR into primarily an O&D site, and funnel connecting traffic through IAD, DEN, and ORD. and given that ORD has far more O&D traffic than those other hubs and favorable geography, ORD should be getting more of that expansion if it weren't so difficult to get gate space at T5. Plus, once the OGT is complete and international connections become smoother (none of this towing aircraft and loading people into trains) ORD will definately become more attractive for future international growth.
 
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United787
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:21 pm

You are exactly correct! If you build it, they will come, for sure.
 
jcwr56
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:39 pm

ORDfan wrote:
Just want to broach the subject of ride-sharing at ORD. I refuse to use uber or lyft for pickups at ORD, and have reverted back to taking taxi's at ground level - there's rarely a wait and fares are within 10% of uber/lyft rates to my neck of the woods (NW side). I will use them at other airports, however.

Anyway, LGA has a good setup with a staging area inside their main parking garage. MSY has a similar setup now too. The ride-share cars can park on/near those floor(s), and basically pull up once summoned. Sure it's a longer walk away from the terminal, but a much shorter wait once getting to the staging area.

Is there any discussion about something like this happening at ORD? It would be so easy to implement within the existing main garage. I think this needs to happen ASAP, because the traffic around the current staging areas on the departure deck are insane. Not to mention that the last time I used it, the wait took forever as the cars had to drive from the remote lot on Balmoral.

How do we make this happen with the CDA?


Once the train is operational, you’ll see things change with ride sharing.
 
chicawgo
Posts: 443
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:09 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:08 am

jcwr56 wrote:
ORDfan wrote:
Just want to broach the subject of ride-sharing at ORD. I refuse to use uber or lyft for pickups at ORD, and have reverted back to taking taxi's at ground level - there's rarely a wait and fares are within 10% of uber/lyft rates to my neck of the woods (NW side). I will use them at other airports, however.

Anyway, LGA has a good setup with a staging area inside their main parking garage. MSY has a similar setup now too. The ride-share cars can park on/near those floor(s), and basically pull up once summoned. Sure it's a longer walk away from the terminal, but a much shorter wait once getting to the staging area.

Is there any discussion about something like this happening at ORD? It would be so easy to implement within the existing main garage. I think this needs to happen ASAP, because the traffic around the current staging areas on the departure deck are insane. Not to mention that the last time I used it, the wait took forever as the cars had to drive from the remote lot on Balmoral.

How do we make this happen with the CDA?


Once the train is operational, you’ll see things change with ride sharing.


Uh oh. Sounds like you’re saying they’ll do what LAX did. Gonna make a lot of people a lot of mad.
 
sircygnus
Posts: 77
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:09 am

I like the idea of making better use of the central parking garage for ride shares. Portions of that deck seem severely under utilized.
 
emcm541
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:42 pm

From the UA fleet thread:

UA has just released the updated ORD 787 European schedule.

ORD-BRU 787-10 effective March 28
ORD-FRA 787-10 effective March 28 (UA944 only)
ORD-MUC 787-9 effective March 28

Previously announced
ORD-PVG 787 service will begin in mid- May
ORD-PEK 787 service will begin in mid-June
ORD-GRU and ORD-HND 787 service will begin sometime in the fall.

For now all other ORD international widebody routes (seasonal and/or year around) will remain on either 763s or 77Es.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:52 pm

emcm541 wrote:
From the UA fleet thread:

UA has just released the updated ORD 787 European schedule.

ORD-BRU 787-10 effective March 28
ORD-FRA 787-10 effective March 28 (UA944 only)
ORD-MUC 787-9 effective March 28

Previously announced
ORD-PVG 787 service will begin in mid- May
ORD-PEK 787 service will begin in mid-June
ORD-GRU and ORD-HND 787 service will begin sometime in the fall.

For now all other ORD international widebody routes (seasonal and/or year around) will remain on either 763s or 77Es.


summer '20
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-20191214

winter '20
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-20191214


Nice! More 787 activity coming up ORD



 
timberwolf24
Posts: 516
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2001 8:38 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:07 pm

yeogeo wrote:
emcm541 wrote:
From the UA fleet thread:

UA has just released the updated ORD 787 European schedule.

ORD-BRU 787-10 effective March 28
ORD-FRA 787-10 effective March 28 (UA944 only)
ORD-MUC 787-9 effective March 28

Previously announced
ORD-PVG 787 service will begin in mid- May
ORD-PEK 787 service will begin in mid-June
ORD-GRU and ORD-HND 787 service will begin sometime in the fall.

For now all other ORD international widebody routes (seasonal and/or year around) will remain on either 763s or 77Es.


summer '20
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-20191214

winter '20
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-20191214


Nice! More 787 activity coming up ORD





Don't forget QF & LY will be coming in with the 787s
Living in LA, ORD/MDW will always be home!
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 906
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:18 pm

muralir wrote:
yeogeo wrote:
Crain's Chicago Business has published an article that raises concerns about O'Hare's growth rate this year being below the average, making it more difficult to fund the expansion.

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/transpo ... -gut-check

The crux of the matter is whether this slower growth rate is just a blip or a trend.
"The latest data comes from a variety of government and industry sources. It indicates year-to-year passenger growth for the nine months ended Sept. 30 was just 1.68 percent. That's well below the 4.56 percent in the year-earlier period and less than half the airport's average growth in the past five years...[the] results are below the roughly 2 to 3 percent annual growth the city is projecting to pay the bills for the terminal expansion, via ticket taxes on flyers and landing fees on airlines."

There's also a pod cast with the author of the article (first 8 minutes) :
https://wgnradio.com/2019/12/09/crains- ... for-ohare/


I think Crains has it backwards. Growth has slowed due to the terminals (esp T5) bursting at the seams. The runway reconfig reduced runway congestion and so we saw good growth rates for several years until we hit terminal constraints. The reduced growth rate in a good economy gives *more* support to expanding the airport, not less.

I bet you UA would love to expand at ORD, as they're facing significant constraints at EWR. Ideally they probably want to convert EWR into primarily an O&D site, and funnel connecting traffic through IAD, DEN, and ORD. and given that ORD has far more O&D traffic than those other hubs and favorable geography, ORD should be getting more of that expansion if it weren't so difficult to get gate space at T5. Plus, once the OGT is complete and international connections become smoother (none of this towing aircraft and loading people into trains) ORD will definately become more attractive for future international growth.


This is exactly what I was trying to get at. Even with improvements to the runways and the ATS, the congested and functionally obsolete main terminal complex is holding ORD back right now from growth and they need to be expediting the terminal construction so ORD can unlock its full potential. The timeline of the OGT construction concerns me.
 
blockski
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:32 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
muralir wrote:
yeogeo wrote:
Crain's Chicago Business has published an article that raises concerns about O'Hare's growth rate this year being below the average, making it more difficult to fund the expansion.

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/transpo ... -gut-check

The crux of the matter is whether this slower growth rate is just a blip or a trend.
"The latest data comes from a variety of government and industry sources. It indicates year-to-year passenger growth for the nine months ended Sept. 30 was just 1.68 percent. That's well below the 4.56 percent in the year-earlier period and less than half the airport's average growth in the past five years...[the] results are below the roughly 2 to 3 percent annual growth the city is projecting to pay the bills for the terminal expansion, via ticket taxes on flyers and landing fees on airlines."

There's also a pod cast with the author of the article (first 8 minutes) :
https://wgnradio.com/2019/12/09/crains- ... for-ohare/


I think Crains has it backwards. Growth has slowed due to the terminals (esp T5) bursting at the seams. The runway reconfig reduced runway congestion and so we saw good growth rates for several years until we hit terminal constraints. The reduced growth rate in a good economy gives *more* support to expanding the airport, not less.

I bet you UA would love to expand at ORD, as they're facing significant constraints at EWR. Ideally they probably want to convert EWR into primarily an O&D site, and funnel connecting traffic through IAD, DEN, and ORD. and given that ORD has far more O&D traffic than those other hubs and favorable geography, ORD should be getting more of that expansion if it weren't so difficult to get gate space at T5. Plus, once the OGT is complete and international connections become smoother (none of this towing aircraft and loading people into trains) ORD will definately become more attractive for future international growth.


This is exactly what I was trying to get at. Even with improvements to the runways and the ATS, the congested and functionally obsolete main terminal complex is holding ORD back right now from growth and they need to be expediting the terminal construction so ORD can unlock its full potential. The timeline of the OGT construction concerns me.


Isn't much of the timeline based on the required phasing? You can't replace T2 without relocating those gates first, which means you need to expand T5 and the Satellites before you can demolish T2...
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:05 am

sircygnus wrote:
I like the idea of making better use of the central parking garage for ride shares. Portions of that deck seem severely under utilized.

I think of the setup at Seattle where ride sharing is in the gloomy, winter weather-exposed parking garage, and how it'd be in Chicago in the winter
VS a (yes, longish) train ride to the modern, well lit and warm Consolidated Facility, I know which option I'd choose: CONRAC.

blockski wrote:
Isn't much of the timeline based on the required phasing? You can't replace T2 without relocating those gates first, which means you need to expand T5 and the Satellites before you can demolish T2...

^This :thumbsup:

timberwolf24 wrote:
Don't forget QF & LY will be coming in with the 787s


Fair Enough





 
nomorerjs
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:42 am

New gates can’t happen fast enough.
 
wxw507
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:14 pm

emcm541 wrote:
From the UA fleet thread:

UA has just released the updated ORD 787 European schedule.

ORD-BRU 787-10 effective March 28
ORD-FRA 787-10 effective March 28 (UA944 only)
ORD-MUC 787-9 effective March 28

Previously announced
ORD-PVG 787 service will begin in mid- May
ORD-PEK 787 service will begin in mid-June
ORD-GRU and ORD-HND 787 service will begin sometime in the fall.

For now all other ORD international widebody routes (seasonal and/or year around) will remain on either 763s or 77Es.


Did not find any news UA will change aircraft for PVG/PEK/HND line, where did you heard this?
 
ORD2010
Posts: 121
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:32 pm

I work on the on going terminal plans of ORD, trust me CDA isn’t playing around, a lot of late nights and weekends to get this going ASAP
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:59 pm

wxw507 wrote:
emcm541 wrote:
Previously announced
ORD-PVG 787 service will begin in mid- May
ORD-PEK 787 service will begin in mid-June
ORD-GRU and ORD-HND 787 service will begin sometime in the fall.

For now all other ORD international widebody routes (seasonal and/or year around) will remain on either 763s or 77Es.


Did not find any news UA will change aircraft for PVG/PEK/HND line, where did you heard this?


I noticed this quote of jayunited from the United Fleet/Network Thread -2019 and went back further in that thread to see if he references any links and only found an earlier post by him which I quote in length because its all (presumably) of interest to this thread:

jayunited wrote:
UA has already announced from ORD routes like PVG, PEK, GRU, and HND will all go 787 in 2020. Although UA has not said which variant will operate these specific routes I'm thinking PVG and PEK will go 789, while HND and GRU will be upguaged to the 78X.

However at the same time UA did announced the 78X (also known as the 78J) will operate these routes next year from ORD and they are FRA, MUC, and BRU.

I think ORD-CDG will remain a on a standard 763 for most of the year but again will be upguaged to a 77E from late May through early September. As you already correctly pointed out LHR and ZRH will remain on the 76L (the premium heavy 763s). The dark horse is FCO as more and more 763s are converted to 76Ls I can see UA perhaps upguaging the route to a 789. However the reason I have reservations about this route being upguaged is because of yields for the past few seasons ticket prices on this route have continued to climb and demand outstrips supply. At one point UA was operating this route with a 77E by both AA and UA, some years back both AA and UA downguaged ORD-FCO to 763s, and ticket prices jumped. AA upguaged the route after they removed all 763s from ORD but UA has kept the 763 on this route even though there is overwhelming demand for a larger jet. If the market can absorb the additional seats without taking yields then I think UA will place a 789 or a 77E on this route. If there is any evidence that suggest yields will take a hit I think UA will leave this route on a standard 763 because ORD-FCO is one of those summer time routes that is just a cash cow for UA and other airlines. I know AA will extend their ORD-FCO season next year, although I haven't heard any thing similar here at UA, I'm hoping UA is at least exploring the idea of extending our ORD-FCO season.


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411803&start=3000 (post #3015, p 61)

I certainly haven't heard an official announcement of the O'Hare GRU/Asian route upguages,but jay seems quite certain of the news. Perhaps it was an internal announcement and we outsiders will hear the specifics in time.
 
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United787
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:11 pm

ORD2010 wrote:
I work on the on going terminal plans of ORD, trust me CDA isn’t playing around, a lot of late nights and weekends to get this going ASAP


Having worked on large projects such as this, I can imagine the design process is intense right now. We are all anxious to get construction started but I would bet that Studio Gang's team is only at the end of the Design Development phase or beginning of the Construction Documentation phase for the Global Terminal. They only received their contract back in March/April, right?

Also, SOM team's design for the two Satellite Concourses is probably at only about 50% Design Development as they were awarded the project only in July.

The good news is that there is plenty happening at ORD to keep us excited:

1) Despite the embarrassing delays with the ATS, the delays are getting smaller so the end is near, maybe January 2020.
2) The new runway, 9C/27C, is taking shape and will be finished next year, 2020. The Paschen photos are awesome.
3) The 9R/27L runway expansion has begun construction and will be ready in 2021.
4) T5 expansion and renovation will be done in 2021. I haven't seen any photos yet but it should be above ground by now, right?
 
FlyPNS1
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:29 pm

muralir wrote:
I think Crains has it backwards. Growth has slowed due to the terminals (esp T5) bursting at the seams. The runway reconfig reduced runway congestion and so we saw good growth rates for several years until we hit terminal constraints. The reduced growth rate in a good economy gives *more* support to expanding the airport, not less.

I bet you UA would love to expand at ORD, as they're facing significant constraints at EWR. Ideally they probably want to convert EWR into primarily an O&D site, and funnel connecting traffic through IAD, DEN, and ORD. and given that ORD has far more O&D traffic than those other hubs and favorable geography, ORD should be getting more of that expansion if it weren't so difficult to get gate space at T5. Plus, once the OGT is complete and international connections become smoother (none of this towing aircraft and loading people into trains) ORD will definately become more attractive for future international growth.


True to an extent, but ORD could grow a lot by simple upgauging. There's a lot of mainline gates that are still used predominantly for RJs. The problem is that neither UA (nor AA) have enough mainline planes to upgauge as fast as they probably should be doing.
 
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kordcj
Posts: 277
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:29 pm

Did ET upguage to a 777-200LR? On the past few occasions I’ve been monitoring ORD (mostly last week), ET575 has been a 77L vs 788. Does this mean the route is doing well?
The most obvious proof for intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't tried to contact us.
 
windycity613
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:17 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:31 pm

United787 wrote:
ORD2010 wrote:
I work on the on going terminal plans of ORD, trust me CDA isn’t playing around, a lot of late nights and weekends to get this going ASAP


Having worked on large projects such as this, I can imagine the design process is intense right now. We are all anxious to get construction started but I would bet that Studio Gang's team is only at the end of the Design Development phase or beginning of the Construction Documentation phase for the Global Terminal. They only received their contract back in March/April, right?

Also, SOM team's design for the two Satellite Concourses is probably at only about 50% Design Development as they were awarded the project only in July.

The good news is that there is plenty happening at ORD to keep us excited:

1) Despite the embarrassing delays with the ATS, the delays are getting smaller so the end is near, maybe January 2020.
2) The new runway, 9C/27C, is taking shape and will be finished next year, 2020. The Paschen photos are awesome.
3) The 9R/27L runway expansion has begun construction and will be ready in 2021.
4) T5 expansion and renovation will be done in 2021. I haven't seen any photos yet but it should be above ground by now, right?



Will there be new parking garages closer to the new terminals?
 
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United787
Posts: 2940
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:25 pm

windycity613 wrote:
Will there be new parking garages closer to the new terminals?


A new parking garage with a capacity of 1,600 is replacing part of the surface parking lot in front of T5. Eventually a hotel might also be located there.

https://www.ord21.com/About/Pages/Happening-Now.aspx

https://www.ord21.com/SiteCollectionIma ... 5%20sw.jpg

There is an enormous parking garage sitting directly in front of T1, T2 and T3 that will remain and has plenty of capacity. The new Global Terminal replaces T2 so the garage will be just as close. You couldn't get any closer without putting the garage on the roof.

https://www.ord21.com/SiteCollectionIma ... re%20s.jpg
 
gabik001
Posts: 468
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:56 pm

kordcj wrote:
Did ET upguage to a 777-200LR? On the past few occasions I’ve been monitoring ORD (mostly last week), ET575 has been a 77L vs 788. Does this mean the route is doing well?

It has been since spring. ET ocassionally replacing B788 by B77L. It happened few times before. Actually today ET sent B77L and looks like it might be one more time this week.
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ORD2010
Posts: 121
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:30 pm

United787 wrote:
ORD2010 wrote:
I work on the on going terminal plans of ORD, trust me CDA isn’t playing around, a lot of late nights and weekends to get this going ASAP


Having worked on large projects such as this, I can imagine the design process is intense right now. We are all anxious to get construction started but I would bet that Studio Gang's team is only at the end of the Design Development phase or beginning of the Construction Documentation phase for the Global Terminal. They only received their contract back in March/April, right?

Also, SOM team's design for the two Satellite Concourses is probably at only about 50% Design Development as they were awarded the project only in July.

The good news is that there is plenty happening at ORD to keep us excited:

1) Despite the embarrassing delays with the ATS, the delays are getting smaller so the end is near, maybe January 2020.
2) The new runway, 9C/27C, is taking shape and will be finished next year, 2020. The Paschen photos are awesome.
3) The 9R/27L runway expansion has begun construction and will be ready in 2021.
4) T5 expansion and renovation will be done in 2021. I haven't seen any photos yet but it should be above ground by now, right?


T5 foundation should start soon, design is at 100% it’s quite extensive. Jeanne gang is still in design development last I heard, SOM I haven’t heard anything about. But things are moving fast and I’m beyond excited, if you would have told young AV and architecture geek me one day I’d work on the airport that made me fall in love with aviation I wouldn’t have believed you. Good things to come to ORD
 
ORDfan
Posts: 658
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:02 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:12 am

United787 wrote:
windycity613 wrote:
Will there be new parking garages closer to the new terminals?


A new parking garage with a capacity of 1,600 is replacing part of the surface parking lot in front of T5. Eventually a hotel might also be located there.

https://www.ord21.com/About/Pages/Happening-Now.aspx

https://www.ord21.com/SiteCollectionIma ... 5%20sw.jpg

There is an enormous parking garage sitting directly in front of T1, T2 and T3 that will remain and has plenty of capacity. The new Global Terminal replaces T2 so the garage will be just as close. You couldn't get any closer without putting the garage on the roof.

https://www.ord21.com/SiteCollectionIma ... re%20s.jpg


I'm not sure if it was mentioned upthread on here, or on a different site, but pretty sure that the T5 hotel proposal is on an indefinite hold. That being said, the "happening now" rendering doesn't depict the T5 garage either, so that is also off in the distant "future."
Last edited by ORDfan on Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
ORDfan
Posts: 658
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:02 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:20 am

ORD2010 wrote:
T5 foundation should start soon, design is at 100% it’s quite extensive. Jeanne gang is still in design development last I heard, SOM I haven’t heard anything about. But things are moving fast and I’m beyond excited, if you would have told young AV and architecture geek me one day I’d work on the airport that made me fall in love with aviation I wouldn’t have believed you. Good things to come to ORD


Hi there! Good stuff and thanks for sharing with the thread.

Can you share any insight into the possible interior layout of the global terminal? There was plenty of press, and no shortage of opinions, about the departure desks being elevated from both the street-level and the gate-level. I am not a fan of the up-down-up approach to the interior elevation of the new terminal.

The arrivals hall at T2-T3 don't seem to suffer from a lack natural light since there are recesses in the glass curtain walls to account for esclators and elevators, so I thought Jeanne's comments about opening arrivals to natural light were a bit contrived and somewhat disingenuous. I'd much rather see departures stay level from curbside to gate, like T5.

Image
 
chidino
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:59 am

ORDfan wrote:
ORD2010 wrote:
T5 foundation should start soon, design is at 100% it’s quite extensive. Jeanne gang is still in design development last I heard, SOM I haven’t heard anything about. But things are moving fast and I’m beyond excited, if you would have told young AV and architecture geek me one day I’d work on the airport that made me fall in love with aviation I wouldn’t have believed you. Good things to come to ORD


Hi there! Good stuff and thanks for sharing with the thread.

Can you share any insight into the possible interior layout of the global terminal? There was plenty of press, and no shortage of opinions, about the departure desks being elevated from both the street-level and the gate-level. I am not a fan of the up-down-up approach to the interior elevation of the new terminal.

The arrivals hall at T2-T3 don't seem to suffer from a lack natural light since there are recesses in the glass curtain walls to account for esclators and elevators, so I thought Jeanne's comments about opening arrivals to natural light were a bit contrived and somewhat disingenuous. I'd much rather see departures stay level from curbside to gate, like T5.

Image


As a disabled person, I share your concern. But I think it's misplaced (I'm hoping) in this instance. Jeanne Gang has always made access a critical part of her work, and in a task as public as this I think her studio will come up with something. Nothing about these conceptual drawings is absolute. And my objection isn't just for disabled people: who wants to be getting on an escalator with their carry-on just as they walk in? Yes, we should be demanding, but I honestly don't think those early drawings survived the first week of public commentary. I guess we'll see, but I'm an optimist. ;) It does raise questions about why the CDA doesn't make decisions publicly.
 
Planeboy17
Posts: 439
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:28 am

There is an enormous parking garage sitting directly in front of T1, T2 and T3 that will remain and has plenty of capacity. The new Global Terminal replaces T2 so the garage will be just as close. You couldn't get any closer without putting the garage on the roof.

https://www.ord21.com/SiteCollectionIma ... re%20s.jpg[/quote]
I’m pretty sure that when they opened this garage it was the largest such structure on Earth.
I can’t find anything to back that up but I did find that it opened in 1972.
Maybe someone else is better at finding it.
 
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Amwest2United
Posts: 282
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:28 am

yeogeo wrote:
wxw507 wrote:
emcm541 wrote:
Previously announced
ORD-PVG 787 service will begin in mid- May
ORD-PEK 787 service will begin in mid-June
ORD-GRU and ORD-HND 787 service will begin sometime in the fall.

For now all other ORD international widebody routes (seasonal and/or year around) will remain on either 763s or 77Es.


Did not find any news UA will change aircraft for PVG/PEK/HND line, where did you heard this?


I noticed this quote of jayunited from the United Fleet/Network Thread -2019 and went back further in that thread to see if he references any links and only found an earlier post by him which I quote in length because its all (presumably) of interest to this thread:

jayunited wrote:
UA has already announced from ORD routes like PVG, PEK, GRU, and HND will all go 787 in 2020. Although UA has not said which variant will operate these specific routes I'm thinking PVG and PEK will go 789, while HND and GRU will be upguaged to the 78X.

However at the same time UA did announced the 78X (also known as the 78J) will operate these routes next year from ORD and they are FRA, MUC, and BRU.

I think ORD-CDG will remain a on a standard 763 for most of the year but again will be upguaged to a 77E from late May through early September. As you already correctly pointed out LHR and ZRH will remain on the 76L (the premium heavy 763s). The dark horse is FCO as more and more 763s are converted to 76Ls I can see UA perhaps upguaging the route to a 789. However the reason I have reservations about this route being upguaged is because of yields for the past few seasons ticket prices on this route have continued to climb and demand outstrips supply. At one point UA was operating this route with a 77E by both AA and UA, some years back both AA and UA downguaged ORD-FCO to 763s, and ticket prices jumped. AA upguaged the route after they removed all 763s from ORD but UA has kept the 763 on this route even though there is overwhelming demand for a larger jet. If the market can absorb the additional seats without taking yields then I think UA will place a 789 or a 77E on this route. If there is any evidence that suggest yields will take a hit I think UA will leave this route on a standard 763 because ORD-FCO is one of those summer time routes that is just a cash cow for UA and other airlines. I know AA will extend their ORD-FCO season next year, although I haven't heard any thing similar here at UA, I'm hoping UA is at least exploring the idea of extending our ORD-FCO season.


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411803&start=3000 (post #3015, p 61)

I certainly haven't heard an official announcement of the O'Hare GRU/Asian route upguages,but jay seems quite certain of the news. Perhaps it was an internal announcement and we outsiders will hear the specifics in time.



It was announced on November 8,2019 in an Flying Together announcement - Not sure how to show the announcement here, but it is on the website.
Life is what happens to you while you making plans to live it!
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:20 pm

Peak season for shippers! Its all hands on deck.
This rare visitor to the Midwest has been called to duty operating between Ontario and Rockford.


N688SL's normal operations consist of island-hopping in the South Pacific. Since the 15th of this month she's been assigned ONT-RFD.

Image

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gabik001
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:30 am

Any tip for how long?
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