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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 12:47 pm
by yeogeo
A little pushback from the Mayor on Speaker Madigan's recent request for $150 million for the proposed third airport near Peotone. Mayor Emanuel responded over the weekend via press release:

"The significant modernization programs underway at O’Hare and Midway will keep passengers connected and fuel new economic opportunities for the region for years to come. In fact, when the O’Hare expansion is complete, it will be the equivalent of adding a third airport to the area. O’Hare is already number one and our modernization will secure it and the Chicago area’s aviation future. If the state has an extra $150 million to spend, schools, mass transit, libraries and parks could wisely use those resources."

https://capitolfax.com/2019/05/06/pritz ... d-airport/

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 1:32 pm
by yeogeo
"54 south suburban and Chicago leaders... asked the new Democratic governor to include $150 million in his upcoming capital plan to build infrastructure to support the [Petone] airport, which is now being envisioned primarily as a cargo airport... Of course, in the greater Rockford area we like to think that RFD is the third Chicagoland airport, but to the leaders and most residents of Chicagoland, Rockford does not exist. The state of Illinois has been trying hard to build the south suburban airport, sometimes at Rockford’s expense."

"If you thought the south suburban airport near Peotone, gateway to Crete and Monee, was dead, you are wrong. It never dies."

Hadn't heard that the focus was now on cargo operations - no wonder the proposal has gotten Rockford's attention.

https://www.rrstar.com/news/20190506/ch ... s-on-again

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 1:44 pm
by United787
I just wrote the governor asking him to not waste any money at Peotone.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 2:07 pm
by elbandgeek
As a southlander who had actually looked forward to Peotone going back to the pre-consolidation days when it would have made more sense, I'm just gonna sit back with the popcorn on this one.

That said, as long as the idea keeps coming back from the dead we might as well have some fun with the "what ifs". Welcome JetBlue to your new Mid-Continent hub.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 2:12 pm
by wnflyguy
Chicago has a third airport it's called Gary, Indiana.
Even with it's runway expansion Nobody wants to treak past MDW.
Peotone is a waste of energy by a wind bag of a politician. Prime example why Term limits are needed.

Flyguy

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 6:31 pm
by s1m7n
yeogeo wrote:
Effective May 1, Norwegian, on three of the four days of operation, will again be using leased aircraft for its LGW<>ORD route.
Norwegian flies M/W/F/Sun into O'Hare from Gatwick and starts Barcelona on June 7 with a M/W/F/Sat schedule.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-20190429

The leased operations will be with Wamos Air's A-330 and crew.


I was looking at flights between LON-ORD for November/December and did not see any Norwegian flights. Is Norwegian cutting service for the season?

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 12:05 am
by yeogeo
s1m7n wrote:
yeogeo wrote:
Effective May 1, Norwegian, on three of the four days of operation, will again be using leased aircraft for its LGW<>ORD route.
Norwegian flies M/W/F/Sun into O'Hare from Gatwick and starts Barcelona on June 7 with a M/W/F/Sat schedule.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-20190429

The leased operations will be with Wamos Air's A-330 and crew.


I was looking at flights between LON-ORD for November/December and did not see any Norwegian flights. Is Norwegian cutting service for the season?


Google Flights is showing the last bookable ORD-LGW flight on Norwegian operates on Friday the 25th of October this year.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 1:30 am
by Fargo
Peotone would not make any sense whatsoever. If the Chicagoland area was booming, sure, but the fact is the area has stagnated and as such, ORD and MDW provide more than adequate capacity for the foreseeable future, especially now that ORD is being reconfigured into a more efficient layout (ORD being in a super inefficient layout was the problem that lead to congestion and hence, why the Peotone airport became a front burner issue to begin with). RFD provides an option for cargo development as well.

The Peotone airport proposal needs to be put to bed once and for all.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 12:15 pm
by yeogeo
I notice that ET flight #510 is again coming into O'Hare from DUB/ADD this morning with a 77L, as opposed to the usual 788.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/et510

It's scheduled as such regularly for the foreseeable future. Has Ethiopian unofficially upguaged the route for the summer?

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 12:19 pm
by chidino
Fargo wrote:
Peotone would not make any sense whatsoever. If the Chicagoland area was booming, sure, but the fact is the area has stagnated and as such, ORD and MDW provide more than adequate capacity for the foreseeable future, especially now that ORD is being reconfigured into a more efficient layout (ORD being in a super inefficient layout was the problem that lead to congestion and hence, why the Peotone airport became a front burner issue to begin with). RFD provides an option for cargo development as well.

The Peotone airport proposal needs to be put to bed once and for all.


I mildly disagree: with I-80 and all the rail, plus all the warehousing investment in the area (regardless of what we think, companies are leasing or buying, and yes, Amazon) it might be worth pursuing as long as it's private investment. The fact that they spent $91 million on land acquisition during the Rauner administration, when the state didn't have money to even print the budget, is so pointless as to boggle the mind. But, please remember, I said: private investment. The taxpayers have provided better facilities than NY, LA, London, Tokyo, Paris, Berlin, etc etc.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 1:49 pm
by yeogeo
yeogeo wrote:
I notice that ET flight #510 is again coming into O'Hare from DUB/ADD this morning with a 77L, as opposed to the usual 788...
Has Ethiopian unofficially upguaged the route for the summer?


(Doing a little more research and answering my own question) I see that ET is to be flying predominately triple sevens on its X4/wk schedule through the month of May into early June. On 6/11 they begin a X5/wk sched and revert back to all 787.

One never knows, but these actions strike me as signs that this route is doing pretty well.

ET's 787-8 and 777-260LR:


Wonder if they'll be flying into O'Hare their A-350's or 787-9's :scratchchin:

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 7:11 pm
by elbandgeek
CDA had been posting month progress reports on the MDW project up until last fall when they stopped for some reason but it looks like they're back and they are really moving along with it. The structure is pretty much all up now and they'll start moving security lanes into the northern section over the summer. The barrier walls in the main terminal are supposed to come down this month and they have pictures of the expanded mezzanine on the other side of the. I'll be flying through next month and then again in August so we'll see how things look then.

https://www.flychicago.com/sites/midway ... fault.aspx

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 7:26 pm
by maps4ltd
Where even is Peotone?

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 7:48 pm
by ual763
maps4ltd wrote:
Where even is Peotone?


In the middle of a bunch of cornfields. WAAAY far south of the city.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 7:59 pm
by elbandgeek
ual763 wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
Where even is Peotone?


In the middle of a bunch of cornfields. WAAAY far south of the city.

Spoken like a true northsider who thinks the state ends at I-80
Image
But Rockford is the solution, right?

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 12:25 am
by yeogeo
elbandgeek wrote:
https://www.flychicago.com/sites/midwaymodernization/progress/pages/default.aspx

:bigthumbsup:
Along with the major construction, it's great that they've increased the variety of MDW's vendors lately. I wish we had a DeColores up in ORD- I'd like to try them!

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 12:56 pm
by yeogeo
Blogger Gregory Tejeda has an opinion piece about the Peotone a/p proposal in which he states (the obvious, IMO) that the project is about jobs in that southern edge of Chicago...

https://chicagoargus.blogspot.com/2019/ ... t-are.html

...but he then goes on to print a few statements which mystified me as to their relevance and might raise eyebrows around here, such as

"...United and American airlines coped with the crowded conditions of Chicago airports by moving their domestic hubs from O’Hare to airports in Denver and Dallas." (Rep. Robin Kelly, D-Ill. in the letter requesting funds for the proposed airport).

...and this from Tejeda: "While O’Hare has dropped from the 12st busiest cargo airport to number 21. Maybe we could have kept these previous rankings if we had acted a few decades ago – instead of letting our partisan politicking take over."
(2017 figures show O'Hare as #6 in the US, number 20 in the world) https://nowthatslogistics.com/the-top-1 ... in-the-us/

And finally Tejeda wonders if built would Petone end up like another BLV (MidAmerica St. Louis Airport), as in: if they build it, they may not come.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 3:35 pm
by elbandgeek
yeogeo wrote:
Blogger Gregory Tejeda has an opinion piece about the Peotone a/p proposal in which he states (the obvious, IMO) that the project is about jobs in that southern edge of Chicago...


As it always has been. I remember growing up in the 90s and having the whole thing hyped up constantly. Conditions are different now but when first proposed it was a good location in an area of the metro that was expected to boom, and there was a smear campaign from day one by the Daley machine who wanted Lake Calumet, and from influencers up north who stood to lose ground from it. You can argue day and night whether or not it makes sense today (it probably doesn't) but the most vitriolic hot takes I consistently see against it are "it's so far away" and "it's in a cornfield" coming from people who directly benefited from the economic stimulus ORD provided 50 years ago and there's always been this lingering air of classism around the topic that has never sit well with me.

yeogeo wrote:
And finally Tejeda wonders if built would Petone end up like another BLV (MidAmerica St. Louis Airport), as in: if they build it, they may not come.


Why they're still pushing forward with it *now* is its own issue, although I'd say it's probably some level of saving face with the amount of land they've already snatched up and have to make something of it. I think the cargo focus could have more merit if they built that other unicorn the lliana tollway between 57 and 65 which I would kill for at this point to get the truck traffic off 80. As for passenger service, we'll never know unless it actually gets built but rail access to downtown (Metra Electric only needs a short extension) could (keyword) be the ticket for someone like G4 to make it work in a way that they couldn't with GYY.

At this point wasting money is par for the course in this state and the part of me that loves watching drama says just do it and if we end up with another BLV then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Use the legalized weed revenue and I'll personally contribute.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 8:16 pm
by yeogeo
Traveling through O'Hare today I see that Alaska has already moved over to G2 and is in the process of adding another jet bridge - a very long one - which snakes past the rotunda and approaches United's gate F1; gate G2A? The G/F alley now has 737's taxiing in and out where formerly only RJ's once roamed.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 8:19 pm
by yeogeo
elbandgeek wrote:
...You can argue day and night whether or not it makes sense today (it probably doesn't) but the most vitriolic hot takes I consistently see against it are "it's so far away" and "it's in a cornfield" coming from people who directly benefited from the economic stimulus ORD provided 50 years ago and there's always been this lingering air of classism around the topic that has never sit well with me.


You make a good point there, elb.... and who's to say what Petone might develop into, given time and a lot of money.


elbandgeek wrote:
At this point wasting money is par for the course in this state and the part of me that loves watching drama says just do it and if we end up with another BLV then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Use the legalized weed revenue and I'll personally contribute.


Another :bigthumbsup: !

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 1:55 am
by Planeboy17
yeogeo wrote:
Traveling through O'Hare today I see that Alaska has already moved over to G2 and is in the process of adding another jet bridge - a very long one - which snakes past the rotunda and approaches United's gate F1; gate G2A? The G/F alley now has 737's taxiing in and out where formerly only RJ's once roamed.

I believe the gate being built is for B6. They will be moving over there as well. They were supposed to already be there but were waiting for the FAA approval for the jet bridge. I was told it will be even longer than L2A so I’m guessing that is what you saw.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 2:05 am
by Planeboy17
elbandgeek wrote:
ual763 wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
Where even is Peotone?


In the middle of a bunch of cornfields. WAAAY far south of the city.

Spoken like a true northsider who thinks the state ends at I-80
Image
But Rockford is the solution, right?

True, RFD is farther but also caters to the Rockford, Beloit and Janesville area which provides 350,000 in the MSA.
Also, the airport is already built and paid for and is one of UPS’s largest stations along with Amazon recently stating a larger presence and airfield construction there.
Along with the recently completed rehab of I-90 it is not a difficult drive for the far NW suburbs now.
I’m normally for more airports but just like when this was first proposed, I just don’t know who is going to fly there.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 2:20 am
by Planeboy17
Someone mentioned Gary upthread. I’d love to know if FedEx has been talking to GYY. They have multiple ops in SOCAL( LAX, ONT, BUR, LGB, SNA) NY (JFK,EWR) BAY AREA (SFO,OAK,SJC) SOUTH FLORIDA (MIA,FLL,PBI) DALLAS METRO (DFW, AFW) but only ORD here.
Sure one could say MKE offers some relief to Northern suburbs but I would think once all of the infrastructure being done at GYY is complete that FX would be interested.
If GYY can land FX ( if they’re even looking to expand) then who’s left for Peotone?

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 2:55 pm
by yeogeo
Hainan delays CTU<>ORD service until September and shows a 10:50pm arrival into O'Hare, with a 12:50am departure.:

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-20190510

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 3:02 pm
by yeogeo
Planeboy17 wrote:
yeogeo wrote:
Traveling through O'Hare today I see that Alaska has already moved over to G2 and is in the process of adding another jet bridge - a very long one - which snakes past the rotunda and approaches United's gate F1; gate G2A? The G/F alley now has 737's taxiing in and out where formerly only RJ's once roamed.

I believe the gate being built is for B6. They will be moving over there as well. They were supposed to already be there but were waiting for the FAA approval for the jet bridge. I was told it will be even longer than L2A so I’m guessing that is what you saw.


Amazing how they keep finding little corners of T2 for more gates - all to be torn down in a few years time.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 8:49 pm
by psa188
I see that Peotone has raised its ugly head again:
https://www.chicagobusiness.com/greg-hi ... k-business

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 10:49 pm
by chidino
psa188 wrote:
I see that Peotone has raised its ugly head again:
https://www.chicagobusiness.com/greg-hi ... k-business


At the conclusion of that article, Greg added an addendum from the mayor-elect:

"Midway is an incredible economic force for the Chicago’s Southwest Side. Its growth has been a major driver for development of the area and the city’s tourism industry. I am committed to supporting economic development that transforms neighborhoods, but we must also protect the existing institutions which have been spearheading so much current investment and growth. If and when the time comes, I will be actively engaged in the conversation about an additional airport while ensuring that our investments in Midway continue to provide economic development."

Well, THAT'S not encouraging. That's someone that doesn't have the vaguest idea of what each of her airports do.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 10:59 pm
by xwb777
Why is Emirates still flying a B777 into ORD? Why Chicago isn't an A380 service by now?

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 12:51 am
by ual763
elbandgeek wrote:
ual763 wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
Where even is Peotone?


In the middle of a bunch of cornfields. WAAAY far south of the city.

Spoken like a true northsider who thinks the state ends at I-80
Image
But Rockford is the solution, right?


I am from Peru, IL, so I actually lived in those cornfields... And let’s face it. It is an airport for Chicago. Peotone is nowhere near Chicago. It makes no sense, especially considering the O’hare expansion. O’hare is a major cargo operation. And I don’t think RFD is the solution either. Hell, UPS still flies quite a lot of flights to ORD. I think ORD is the solution and will continue to be.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 2:27 am
by ORDfan
LOL, I see you guys heard about Peotone....

I agree with some folks, I could maybe be talked into it, since Peotone is closer to the Joliet/G4 rail and container transloaders, as well as all the warehouse space that's been built off I-55. But agree that GYY should probably get more attention that it does, especially with NW Indiana leading a lot of the growth for the metro area.

Interesting tidbit, and I did not realize that RFD is indeed UPS's 2nd largest hub based on daily flights. So let's give props where props is due.

https://pressroom.ups.com/pressroom/Con ... 563773-779

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 4:33 pm
by United787
elbandgeek wrote:
ual763 wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
Where even is Peotone?


In the middle of a bunch of cornfields. WAAAY far south of the city.

Spoken like a true northsider who thinks the state ends at I-80
Image
But Rockford is the solution, right?


I am a true northsider but having gone to school in Champaign, I can appreciate the sentiment that northsiders think the state ends at I-80. But I am woke on the geography of the southside. Rockford isn't the solution to the "problem" but does serve a role. ORD was the problem and over the past 10 years has become the solution. I was skeptical of Peotone 25 years ago but with the ORD runway reconfiguration (OMP) on final approach and the new terminal (O'Hare 21) reaching cruising altitude, there is no problem anymore and so Peotone makes even less sense now. Also, the MDW terminal complex was completely rebuilt since Peotone was first proposed making MDW into a vibrant and efficient airport. And, for southsiders, if Peotone is built, the biggest loser will be MDW. I don't see Peotone having much impact on ORD. Peotone needs to die already. If and when (and if is a big IF), we ever need a 3rd airport, GYY is ready (already on the southside) and waiting along with relief from RFD and MKE. Why spend billions of dollars to create infrastructure out of corn fields when we already have a fully capable airport already in place with money already spent in a much better location, close to a rapid transit train line...

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 5:07 pm
by Delta28L
xwb777 wrote:
Why is Emirates still flying a B777 into ORD? Why Chicago isn't an A380 service by now?


Emirates has to compete with Royal Jordan, Turkish Airlines, Qatar, Etihad, and Air India for passengers to the Middle East. They probably figure they can use the A380 somewhere else and make more money than at O’Hare.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Sun May 12, 2019 1:53 pm
by yeogeo
Passing through O'Hare today saw my first Sun Country and LATAM Cargo aircraft on the field. Noticed that the latter is either stopping at MIA or PTY on its way to ORD.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/uc1100

Also the last structure in the way of 9C/27C is nearly demolished - there'll be nothing in the way of the paving crew in short order.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 12:42 am
by muralir
chidino wrote:
psa188 wrote:
I see that Peotone has raised its ugly head again:
https://www.chicagobusiness.com/greg-hi ... k-business


At the conclusion of that article, Greg added an addendum from the mayor-elect:

"Midway is an incredible economic force for the Chicago’s Southwest Side. Its growth has been a major driver for development of the area and the city’s tourism industry. I am committed to supporting economic development that transforms neighborhoods, but we must also protect the existing institutions which have been spearheading so much current investment and growth. If and when the time comes, I will be actively engaged in the conversation about an additional airport while ensuring that our investments in Midway continue to provide economic development."

Well, THAT'S not encouraging. That's someone that doesn't have the vaguest idea of what each of her airports do.


What's inaccurate about that quote? MDW *is* a major driver for tourism, given all the O&D traffic that southwest carries (I believe SW has more O&D passengers in the Chicago market then either UA or AA). And MDW is definitely an economic engine for the southwest side, given the number of jobs it generates. Sure, compared to what ORD does for the NW side, it's not as much, but if you kill MDW, the SW side will definitely feel the effects.

Regardless, do you really expect the mayor of Chicago to come out in favor of an airport controlled by suburbanites that will eat into her city-controlled airports? Let's face it. The entire reason for Peotone was to grab airport traffic away from city control and put all the patronage and economic favors in the control of the state and suburbs, which at the time were all Republican-controlled. If it was simply about relieving congestion at ORD, the Lake Calumet proposal would have been far better: larger land area than ORD, close to city and suburban populations, and located in the South Side which would spur massive economic development in the South side (including inner suburbs).

But Peotone was never about what's the best location for a new Chicago airport. It was about control of the airports. Now that Chicago, many of the suburbs, and the state, are firmly in Democratic hands, I don't see any real reason for Peotone to exist.

Regarding cargo. Yes, the Joliet/I-55 corridor is turning into a massive logistics / distribution / warehouse center. But that's because of the railroads and rail yards located there (they're all cross-country and therefore meet in the southern part of Chicagoland, below Lake Michigan). For freight coming via air, once you take the hit of loading it onto a truck, the difference between 2hrs, 1hr, and 45min (Rockford / ORD / Peotone to Joliet, respectively) doesn't make much of a difference. Sure, if Peotone is built, I'm sure warehouse and distribution facilities will spring up next to the airport. But that doesn't take advantage of the pre-existing stuff around Joliet/I-55. And there's no reason why new infrastructure can't be built around ORD/RFD instead (indeed, the ORD warehouse market is one of the hottest real estate markets in Chicagoland, thanks to the cargo facilities expansion and the resulting boom in ORD's international freight). For cargo, the limiting factor has never been landing slots. The number of landing slots they need is tiny compared to the passenger ops, and easily accommodated since they generally run off-peak (e.g. middle of the night). It's always about facilities, and there's no reason why those facilities can't be built at ORD or RFD.

And to top it all off, since Peotone was first proposed, we've spent $10bil, with plans to spend another $10bil, to build the equivalent of a DFW or JFK in capacity onto ORD's pre-existing operations. IOW, we *have* built a 3rd airport for Chicago. It just happens to be physically located on ORD's land.

At the end of the day, Peotone has boondoggle written all over it. Since ORD's expansion is based on their own landing fees, and is not dependent on state (or even city) dollars, it will proceed regardless of whether Peotone is built. And once the airlines get as many gates as they want at ORD, who will fly into Peotone? The state can't force ORD or MDW to close and Chicago will never restrict operations there to help out a suburban airport it doesn't control. Daley even went so far as to form an alliance with Gary rather than deal with the suburbs. So how exactly are you going to attract airlines to this brand new airport (brand new means high landing fees, likely higher than even ORDs after the expansion), when Chicago is offering nearly limitless gates and landing slots in a brand new airport of its own that it's building at ORD?

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 1:00 am
by muralir
Delta28L wrote:
xwb777 wrote:
Why is Emirates still flying a B777 into ORD? Why Chicago isn't an A380 service by now?


Emirates has to compete with Royal Jordan, Turkish Airlines, Qatar, Etihad, and Air India for passengers to the Middle East. They probably figure they can use the A380 somewhere else and make more money than at O’Hare.


I'm curious how Royal Jordanian has managed to survive with that onslaught of competitors. Is there any other US airport will all three ME3, TK, and RJ in one airport? And with El-Al coming, the only major ME airline missing is probably Saudia. Is there a specific niche, aside from O&D traffic, that RJ serves that the others don't?

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 1:58 am
by yeogeo
muralir wrote:
Is there any other US airport will all three ME3, TK, and RJ in one airport?


JFK - No surprise. I believe that's the end of the list.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 2:23 am
by yeogeo
muralir wrote:
I'm curious how Royal Jordanian has managed to survive with that onslaught of competitors. ... Is there a specific niche, aside from O&D traffic, that RJ serves that the others don't?


Their middle Eastern routes are extensive, not to mention north Africa.
Image
Maps generated by the Great Circle Mapper (http://www.gcmap.com) - copyright © Karl L. Swartz.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 2:27 am
by winter
muralir wrote:
Delta28L wrote:
xwb777 wrote:
Why is Emirates still flying a B777 into ORD? Why Chicago isn't an A380 service by now?


Emirates has to compete with Royal Jordan, Turkish Airlines, Qatar, Etihad, and Air India for passengers to the Middle East. They probably figure they can use the A380 somewhere else and make more money than at O’Hare.


I'm curious how Royal Jordanian has managed to survive with that onslaught of competitors. Is there any other US airport will all three ME3, TK, and RJ in one airport? And with El-Al coming, the only major ME airline missing is probably Saudia. Is there a specific niche, aside from O&D traffic, that RJ serves that the others don't?


There’s a large Jordanian and Lebanese diaspora in the Chicagoland area that keep the RJ flight alive. The ME3 aren’t as convenient due to backtracking. TK is probably the tougher competitor for RJ, but both carriers have been present in Chicago for decades.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 4:06 am
by kordcj
yeogeo wrote:
Also the last structure in the way of 9C/27C is nearly demolished - there'll be nothing in the way of the paving crew in short order.


That’s really great news! It’ll be a real treat to see heavies landing on the north side of the field. When 9R/27L is extended, will all runways be open for both flows of traffic, or will there still be restrictions on the use of 9L/27R and 10R/28L? I’d imagine 22L will stop being used in West flow.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 11:24 pm
by chidino
muralir wrote:
chidino wrote:
psa188 wrote:
I see that Peotone has raised its ugly head again:
https://www.chicagobusiness.com/greg-hi ... k-business


At the conclusion of that article, Greg added an addendum from the mayor-elect:

"Midway is an incredible economic force for the Chicago’s Southwest Side. Its growth has been a major driver for development of the area and the city’s tourism industry. I am committed to supporting economic development that transforms neighborhoods, but we must also protect the existing institutions which have been spearheading so much current investment and growth. If and when the time comes, I will be actively engaged in the conversation about an additional airport while ensuring that our investments in Midway continue to provide economic development."

Well, THAT'S not encouraging. That's someone that doesn't have the vaguest idea of what each of her airports do.


What's inaccurate about that quote? MDW *is* a major driver for tourism, given all the O&D traffic that southwest carries (I believe SW has more O&D passengers in the Chicago market then either UA or AA). And MDW is definitely an economic engine for the southwest side, given the number of jobs it generates. Sure, compared to what ORD does for the NW side, it's not as much, but if you kill MDW, the SW side will definitely feel the effects.

Regardless, do you really expect the mayor of Chicago to come out in favor of an airport controlled by suburbanites that will eat into her city-controlled airports? Let's face it. The entire reason for Peotone was to grab airport traffic away from city control and put all the patronage and economic favors in the control of the state and suburbs, which at the time were all Republican-controlled. If it was simply about relieving congestion at ORD, the Lake Calumet proposal would have been far better: larger land area than ORD, close to city and suburban populations, and located in the South Side which would spur massive economic development in the South side (including inner suburbs).

But Peotone was never about what's the best location for a new Chicago airport. It was about control of the airports. Now that Chicago, many of the suburbs, and the state, are firmly in Democratic hands, I don't see any real reason for Peotone to exist.

Regarding cargo. Yes, the Joliet/I-55 corridor is turning into a massive logistics / distribution / warehouse center. But that's because of the railroads and rail yards located there (they're all cross-country and therefore meet in the southern part of Chicagoland, below Lake Michigan). For freight coming via air, once you take the hit of loading it onto a truck, the difference between 2hrs, 1hr, and 45min (Rockford / ORD / Peotone to Joliet, respectively) doesn't make much of a difference. Sure, if Peotone is built, I'm sure warehouse and distribution facilities will spring up next to the airport. But that doesn't take advantage of the pre-existing stuff around Joliet/I-55. And there's no reason why new infrastructure can't be built around ORD/RFD instead (indeed, the ORD warehouse market is one of the hottest real estate markets in Chicagoland, thanks to the cargo facilities expansion and the resulting boom in ORD's international freight). For cargo, the limiting factor has never been landing slots. The number of landing slots they need is tiny compared to the passenger ops, and easily accommodated since they generally run off-peak (e.g. middle of the night). It's always about facilities, and there's no reason why those facilities can't be built at ORD or RFD.

And to top it all off, since Peotone was first proposed, we've spent $10bil, with plans to spend another $10bil, to build the equivalent of a DFW or JFK in capacity onto ORD's pre-existing operations. IOW, we *have* built a 3rd airport for Chicago. It just happens to be physically located on ORD's land.

At the end of the day, Peotone has boondoggle written all over it. Since ORD's expansion is based on their own landing fees, and is not dependent on state (or even city) dollars, it will proceed regardless of whether Peotone is built. And once the airlines get as many gates as they want at ORD, who will fly into Peotone? The state can't force ORD or MDW to close and Chicago will never restrict operations there to help out a suburban airport it doesn't control. Daley even went so far as to form an alliance with Gary rather than deal with the suburbs. So how exactly are you going to attract airlines to this brand new airport (brand new means high landing fees, likely higher than even ORDs after the expansion), when Chicago is offering nearly limitless gates and landing slots in a brand new airport of its own that it's building at ORD?


I have to admit I'm confused: I didn't accuse her of inaccuracies, but instead said she clearly does not understand what her two airports do, and I stand by that. Midway is operating at virtually full capacity, and is not a significant cargo airport. Peotone is almost zero threat to MDW, and absolutely no one has said anything about "killing" it (quoting you). O'Hare, on the other hand, could see a substantial loss of cargo traffic, and at almost 2 million tons last year, a critical element in paying for ORD expansion. The fact that she talks about a possible cargo-only airport as a threat to MDW shows she doesn't know basic operations of a highly significant and visible city department -- and that was AFTER Hinz gave them time to compose a reply. That's what my comment was about.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 12:20 am
by chidino
... and how does a cargo airport like proposed Peotone affect Chicago tourism? I don't support Peotone, but the mayor-elect's concerns regarding Midway are not a issue with Peotone. But they are with the single biggest economic engine she has.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 6:24 pm
by muralir
@chidino, I'm sorry if my reply came off harsh. I didn't mean it that way, and thanks for clarifying what you meant.

I agree that a cargo only airport will have little impact on MDW. That said, I highly doubt that peotone will remain cargo only. Even RFD isn't. There are, indeed, only a few large aiports that are successful as cargo-only. I suspect the politicians are saying anything they can to get the project going, regardless of what their true plans are.

Peotone makes even less sense as a cargo airport than as a passenger airport, because ORD has plenty of runway capacity, and has completed a big expansion of cargo facilities, with more coming. Cargo is never constrained by runway capacity, except in airports *so* constrained that cargo flights routinely get bumped to get passenger flights out in time.

I'm not a cargo expert, but I suspect the only advantage of peotone vs ORD for cargo is its proximity to the railroads. But cargo to/from ORD generally doesn't travel on rail, but by trucks from around the Midwest. If it's further than a day's ride on a truck, you would just fly it into a closer city. And since you have to load onto a truck regardless, the difference between driving 45 minutes from peotone vs 90 minutes from ORD to get to the South suburban rail yards is a minimal benefit.

I think you and I agree on the futility of peotone, but just to note, most of that cargo coming into ORD travels in the belly of passenger flights. Those aren't going anywhere. And it makes zero sense to build a massive new airport for the relatively smaller amount of cargo on dedicated freighters. Especially since even dedicated cargo benefits from having the extensive connection options all that belly freight gives you.

I'm curious if anyone knows the breakdown of belly vs dedicated cargo traffic either at ORD or in general?

At the end of the day, I think peotone makes little sense as a passenger airport, and even less sense as a cargo airport.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 6:51 pm
by chidino
No offense taken, no worries. I do think you'd be surprised by how large cargo operations are at O'Hare. ORD is sixth in the country in cargo volume, third when you factor out MEM, SDF and ANC (which are cargo hubs first). ORD handed 1.862 million tons of freight in 2018; to put that in perspective, the RAF and USAAF combined for "only" 1.5 million tons of bombs on Germany in all of WWII. (Weird comparison, I know, but kind of staggering.) Even more importantly, 1.45 million of that is international in origin. ORD has parking for 40 widebody freighters (big enough for 747-8s), and 2 mil sq feet of airside as well as 2 mil more sq ft landside warehousing. 28 different air cargo carriers provide scheduled service. There are videos available online: search "O'Hare heavy landings" and you'll be surprised how many 747s still come to ORD, as well as a ton of 777Fs.

Chicago is still the distribution point for the Midwest, and Chinese manufacturers are choosing it as an ideal central distribution point, if necessary, for the whole country. Fresh flowers from Central and South America, fresh fish: tons of it every day and distributed from here. I'm sure there are A.netters who know ops up close and personal who could shed more light, but rest assured the cargo money at ORD comes from big dedicated freighters, not just what's left over after the baggage goes in.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 11:29 pm
by yeogeo
There's a thread for it, but thought I'd post the routes American is inaugurating at ORD:
Chicago O’Hare – St. Lucia eff 21DEC19 1 weekly 737-800
Chicago O’Hare – St. Thomas eff 21DEC19 1 weekly A319

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-20190515

Anybody tell me if these have been flown nonstop out of ORD before?

Image
Maps generated by the Great Circle Mapper (http://www.gcmap.com) - copyright © Karl L. Swartz.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 1:32 am
by ordramper98
United has been flying to St. Thomas seasonally for years out of O’Hare. Also last year was the first year St.Lucia was added. I’m sorry I don’t have the dates it operated. I don’t see it planned this year ( i only checked several dates though). St.Thomas does come back later this year.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 1:33 am
by Fargo
Any word on the ATS reopening date? Has anyone seen them test the new system?

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:08 am
by AMollenhauer9
yeogeo wrote:
There's a thread for it, but thought I'd post the routes American is inaugurating at ORD:
Chicago O’Hare – St. Lucia eff 21DEC19 1 weekly 737-800
Chicago O’Hare – St. Thomas eff 21DEC19 1 weekly A319

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-20190515

Anybody tell me if these have been flown nonstop out of ORD before?

Image
Maps generated by the Great Circle Mapper (http://www.gcmap.com) - copyright © Karl L. Swartz.


I flew on an AA 757 to STT sometime towards the end of last decade.

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 10:38 am
by yeogeo
kordcj wrote:
yeogeo wrote:
Also the last structure in the way of 9C/27C is nearly demolished - there'll be nothing in the way of the paving crew in short order.


That’s really great news! It’ll be a real treat to see heavies landing on the north side of the field. When 9R/27L is extended, will all runways be open for both flows of traffic, or will there still be restrictions on the use of 9L/27R and 10R/28L? I’d imagine 22L will stop being used in West flow.


jetblastdubai wrote:
Any comments, sir?

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 10:46 am
by yeogeo
yeogeo wrote:
There's a thread for it, but thought I'd post the routes American is inaugurating at ORD:
Chicago O’Hare – St. Lucia eff 21DEC19 1 weekly 737-800
Chicago O’Hare – St. Thomas eff 21DEC19 1 weekly A319

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-20190515

Anybody tell me if these have been flown nonstop out of ORD before?

Image
Maps generated by the Great Circle Mapper (http://www.gcmap.com) - copyright © Karl L. Swartz.


ordramper98 wrote:

AMollenhauer9 wrote:


Thanks for the replies. I'm ignorant of all the flights UA and AA fly to the Caribbean; hard to get a handle on them. Last time I flew down to the islands was back when AA flew everything from SJU - dates me a bit!

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2019

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 3:18 pm
by Planeboy17
Fargo wrote:
Any word on the ATS reopening date? Has anyone seen them test the new system?

No concrete information but I did see some of the new trains sitting at the T5 station a couple of weeks ago so I’m guessing they are doing some limited testing?