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JHCRJ700
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:56 pm

OpsCheckNML wrote:
Does anybody have any information or pictures of the new amazon facility in BWI?


I don't have any pics of it, but its running big time. It seems like there is a constant stream of ABX/Atlas 767s coming and going all day. Next time I'm down there I'll snag a few pictures
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Noreastshuttle
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:07 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
ITB wrote:

Seems like a decent chance of happening. The only WAW-TATL capable aircraft currently in LOT's fleet are 14 787s (8 - 788; 6 - 789). Two additional 789s are coming, one later this year and one in 2020. We'll have to wait and see what they do with these frames. Could be one of the 789s will be allocated to WAW-ORD or another route, thereby freeing up a 788 for WAW-IAD. If LOT moves forward with IAD, we'll probably have an announcement either late this year or early next.



The distance from the Dulles Metro station to the terminal will be about 1,150 feet. The station will be connected to the terminal by an underground tunnel, featuring moving walkways. How much of the 1,150 ft will comprise moving walkways, I don't know. It's very possible shuttle bus service will be established at the station, as many travelers — the elderly, families with very young children, etc. — won't be able to make the trek, even with the moving walkways.


On average one should be able to walk from the station to the counters in about 10 minutes.

The moving walkway encompasses about 80 percent of the tunnel between the terminal and the station. The walkways are pretty slow and are not the "high-speed" kind you see at places like YYZ. There are two elevators at the airport arrival level which go to the tunnel and vice versa.

Biggest concern would be elevators at the station. I'm not sure how many there are and WMATA is notorious for having elevators/escalators out-of-service for long periods.

It isn't a typical station though, so I'm willing to bet there will be extra effort to keep those elevators in service. The walkways aren't bad. I think some people are making the walk out to be more than it is — it's no different/worse than walking between terminals at places like ORD, ATL, etc. Yes, it would have been better to have the station built directly beneath the terminal, but it wasn't, so it is what it is.


Its not a “it is what it is” situation, its about making it feasible logically for people who are seasoned travelers and every so often passengers. If I’m already doing a plethora of additional stops to take metro to Dulles to do this, ends up making BWI still attractive after all the money DC, MD and VA put up for this extension. This reminds so much of the feelings Manhattanites (DC Proper) have about going to JFK (IAD). They only go to JFK for cross country flights and if necessary and at times still opting for EWR (BWI). How many of you have taken the A train from JFK to Manhattan? Try it sometime, (it can be miserable) i think Dulles will be a similar experience.
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Mainland
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:31 pm

JHCRJ700 wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:

I have heard or seen absolutely nothing regarding the Southwest hangar, which was supposed to begin construction in Q1 2019.


Was it supposed to go over where Amazon built their new facility? It does seem weird that with the continued growth an expansion of the network from BWI that there is no maintenance hanger there.


I'm not sure about the construction timing, but BWI planning docs have it placed just to the south of Northrop, with access via taxiway F.
You don't need a passport to know what state you're in...
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:31 pm

Noreastshuttle wrote:
How many of you have taken the A train from JFK to Manhattan? Try it sometime, (it can be miserable) i think Dulles will be a similar experience.

I have. I didn't think it was that bad, but to each his/her own. Yes, the ride itself will be very lengthy coming from DC, but I don't personally see why it's a big deal that the station is across the street rather than under the terminal. Obviously it's somewhat less convenient, but having walked back and forth between the daily garage and the terminal four times in the past week alone, it isn't really that much of an inconvenience. Everyone has their opinion about this, and for some, it will still deter them from flying out of IAD. Others of us don't see it as being a big deal, and new connectivity where connectivity was previously absent is never a bad thing.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:54 pm

I've never thought the BWI/DCA/IAD airport triad is comparable to JFK/EWR/LGA. The NYC area has 3x the population of DC/Baltimore. While DCA/LGA are very similar and in some ways IAD/JFK are, BWI/EWR definitely don't match up. EWR is a UA global hub while BWI has to use Maryland incentives just to keep a single LHR BA flight from moving to IAD.

The walk isn't bad from the terminal to the station as long as WMATA keeps the escalators working.

I agree the ride to Downtown will be long. Especially with Orange and Silver line separation at non-rush hour times. It will be decent time investment to take the METRO from Terminal C/D to a Downtown hotel, especially one closer to Capitol Hill

Work out those arms now. :D
 
blockski
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:00 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
I've never thought the BWI/DCA/IAD airport triad is comparable to JFK/EWR/LGA. The NYC area has 3x the population of DC/Baltimore. While DCA/LGA are very similar and in some ways IAD/JFK are, BWI/EWR definitely don't match up. EWR is a UA global hub while BWI has to use Maryland incentives just to keep a single LHR BA flight from moving to IAD.

The walk isn't bad from the terminal to the station as long as WMATA keeps the escalators working.

I agree the ride to Downtown will be long. Especially with Orange and Silver line separation at non-rush hour times. It will be decent time investment to take the METRO from Terminal C/D to a Downtown hotel, especially one closer to Capitol Hill

Work out those arms now. :D


What do you mean, Orange and Silver line 'separation'?
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:14 pm

blockski wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
I've never thought the BWI/DCA/IAD airport triad is comparable to JFK/EWR/LGA. The NYC area has 3x the population of DC/Baltimore. While DCA/LGA are very similar and in some ways IAD/JFK are, BWI/EWR definitely don't match up. EWR is a UA global hub while BWI has to use Maryland incentives just to keep a single LHR BA flight from moving to IAD.

The walk isn't bad from the terminal to the station as long as WMATA keeps the escalators working.

I agree the ride to Downtown will be long. Especially with Orange and Silver line separation at non-rush hour times. It will be decent time investment to take the METRO from Terminal C/D to a Downtown hotel, especially one closer to Capitol Hill

Work out those arms now. :D


What do you mean, Orange and Silver line 'separation'?


One train goes to Vienna, one train goes to Reston.

Rush-hour gaps are not so bad. The longer wait times are during the non-rush, even with some trains staged at Wiehle. I know the new yard will solve some of these issues but there's still only one track for both lines starting at East Falls Church.
 
blockski
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:30 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
blockski wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
I've never thought the BWI/DCA/IAD airport triad is comparable to JFK/EWR/LGA. The NYC area has 3x the population of DC/Baltimore. While DCA/LGA are very similar and in some ways IAD/JFK are, BWI/EWR definitely don't match up. EWR is a UA global hub while BWI has to use Maryland incentives just to keep a single LHR BA flight from moving to IAD.

The walk isn't bad from the terminal to the station as long as WMATA keeps the escalators working.

I agree the ride to Downtown will be long. Especially with Orange and Silver line separation at non-rush hour times. It will be decent time investment to take the METRO from Terminal C/D to a Downtown hotel, especially one closer to Capitol Hill

Work out those arms now. :D


What do you mean, Orange and Silver line 'separation'?


One train goes to Vienna, one train goes to Reston.

Rush-hour gaps are not so bad. The longer wait times are during the non-rush, even with some trains staged at Wiehle. I know the new yard will solve some of these issues but there's still only one track for both lines starting at East Falls Church.


Oh, I see what you mean.

The actual headways during rush hours mean that Silver Line trains come every 6-8 minutes. During off-peak times, Silver Line trains come every 12 minutes.

There's not a yard constraint today on headways between trains.
 
jplatts
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:13 am

WN had stated in today's earnings call that it is planning on significantly expanding at BWI.

Here are the 2018 Q4 PDEW's of top domestic routes out of BWI/DCA/IAD that WN doesn't currently serve nonstop out of BWI:
WAS-SFO - 1595 (373 out of BWI, WN already serves OAK and SJC in the San Francisco Bay Area nonstop from BWI)
WAS-PDX - 410 (89 out of BWI)
WAS-OMA - 246 (42 out of BWI, WN already serves OMA nonstop from DCA)
WAS-SNA - 178 (56 out of BWI, not served nonstop from BWI, DCA, or IAD, unlikely to be added by WN in the near future due to WN losing slots at SNA)
WAS-TUS - 181 (61 out of BWI, not served nonstop from BWI, DCA, or IAD)
WAS-PNS - 151 (43 out of BWI, not served nonstop from BWI)
WAS-ELP - 151 (53 out of BWI, not served nonstop from BWI, DCA, or IAD)
WAS-DSM - 136 (40 out of BWI, not served nonstop from BWI or IAD)
WAS-LIT - 121 (34 out of BWI, not served nonstop from BWI or IAD, WN previously served LIT nonstop from BWI)
WAS-ONT - 108 (45 out of BWI, not served nonstop from BWI, DCA, or IAD)
WAS-TUL - 93 (not served nonstop from BWI, DCA, or IAD)
WAS-RNO - 88 (not served nonstop from BWI, DCA, or IAD)
WAS-GEG - 80 (not served nonstop from BWI, DCA, or IAD)
WAS-BOI - 78 (not served nonstop from BWI, DCA, or IAD)

While WN already serves most of its domestic destinations nonstop from BWI, there are some additional domestic nonstop routes such as BWI-SFO, BWI-OMA, BWI-TUS, BWI-PNS, BWI-ELP, BWI-ONT, BWI-TUL, BWI-RNO, and BWI-BOI that could be added by WN out of BWI. In addition, WN could also extend BWI-SEA, BWI-PDX, BWI-SJC, and BWI-SMF to year-round daily nonstop service.

I could also see WN possibly re-adding BWI-LIT nonstop service with WN recently re-adding BWI-GSP and HOU-LIT nonstop service and with WN having previously serving LIT nonstop from BWI.

Which domestic adds are likely to occur out of BWI on WN (apart from increased frequencies on existing nonstop routes out of BWI on WN or the already announced return of BWI-GSP nonstop service starting on November 3rd)?
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:20 am

atcsundevil wrote:
Noreastshuttle wrote:
How many of you have taken the A train from JFK to Manhattan? Try it sometime, (it can be miserable) i think Dulles will be a similar experience.

I have. I didn't think it was that bad, but to each his/her own. Yes, the ride itself will be very lengthy coming from DC, but I don't personally see why it's a big deal that the station is across the street rather than under the terminal. Obviously it's somewhat less convenient, but having walked back and forth between the daily garage and the terminal four times in the past week alone, it isn't really that much of an inconvenience. Everyone has their opinion about this, and for some, it will still deter them from flying out of IAD. Others of us don't see it as being a big deal, and new connectivity where connectivity was previously absent is never a bad thing.


Agreed. Provided the moving walkways are actually running, its really is no big deal.
 
Noreastshuttle
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:58 am

izbtmnhd wrote:
I've never thought the BWI/DCA/IAD airport triad is comparable to JFK/EWR/LGA. The NYC area has 3x the population of DC/Baltimore. While DCA/LGA are very similar and in some ways IAD/JFK are, BWI/EWR definitely don't match up. EWR is a UA global hub while BWI has to use Maryland incentives just to keep a single LHR BA flight from moving to IAD.

The walk isn't bad from the terminal to the station as long as WMATA keeps the escalators working.

I agree the ride to Downtown will be long. Especially with Orange and Silver line separation at non-rush hour times. It will be decent time investment to take the METRO from Terminal C/D to a Downtown hotel, especially one closer to Capitol Hill

Work out those arms now. :D


Ohh no i hate this because I’m so protective but here it goes... lol

I think they are quite comparable in relation to functionality.
EWR and BWI are both:
- Fortress Hubs (Southwest-BWI 67% Market Share / United-EWR 50% Market Share)
- Service 2 markets (Its even in their names when advertised by the hub airline (Newark-New York / Baltimore/Washington )
- Accessible by Amtrak
- Are easier and quicker to get to by Public Transit than their region’s “Larger sized Airport” (JFK/IAD)


Let’s not downplay BWI importance, let alone passenger preference obviously. Think about it for a sec. BWI is the region BUSIEST airport when comes to people and literally did 4 million more people than Dulles with it’s little LHR incentive flight and IAD being a whole international and domestic hub for a big 3 network carrier. I don't know whether if it’s impressive for BWI or dispiriting for IAD. If we did this based on passenger numbers for the region compared to NYC Triad, BWI moves into JFK spot as comparable for most passengers for the Baltimore/DC Region..

Side Note:
I don’t hate Dulles as much as some of you love hating on BWI or anything that Maryland has thats better or does better than Virginia but whatever, facts are facts
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dcaproducer
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:48 pm

Noreastshuttle wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
I've never thought the BWI/DCA/IAD airport triad is comparable to JFK/EWR/LGA. The NYC area has 3x the population of DC/Baltimore. While DCA/LGA are very similar and in some ways IAD/JFK are, BWI/EWR definitely don't match up. EWR is a UA global hub while BWI has to use Maryland incentives just to keep a single LHR BA flight from moving to IAD.

The walk isn't bad from the terminal to the station as long as WMATA keeps the escalators working.

I agree the ride to Downtown will be long. Especially with Orange and Silver line separation at non-rush hour times. It will be decent time investment to take the METRO from Terminal C/D to a Downtown hotel, especially one closer to Capitol Hill

Work out those arms now. :D


Ohh no i hate this because I’m so protective but here it goes... lol

I think they are quite comparable in relation to functionality.
EWR and BWI are both:
- Fortress Hubs (Southwest-BWI 67% Market Share / United-EWR 50% Market Share)
- Service 2 markets (Its even in their names when advertised by the hub airline (Newark-New York / Baltimore/Washington )
- Accessible by Amtrak
- Are easier and quicker to get to by Public Transit than their region’s “Larger sized Airport” (JFK/IAD)


Let’s not downplay BWI importance, let alone passenger preference obviously. Think about it for a sec. BWI is the region BUSIEST airport when comes to people and literally did 4 million more people than Dulles with it’s little LHR incentive flight and IAD being a whole international and domestic hub for a big 3 network carrier. I don't know whether if it’s impressive for BWI or dispiriting for IAD. If we did this based on passenger numbers for the region compared to NYC Triad, BWI moves into JFK spot as comparable for most passengers for the Baltimore/DC Region..

Side Note:
I don’t hate Dulles as much as some of you love hating on BWI or anything that Maryland has thats better or does better than Virginia but whatever, facts are facts


I'm not going to hate on any of the three DC metro airports. I'm just going to point out stats if DCA and Dulles were one airport, they would dwarf BWI in traffic. DCA would dwarf BWI and IAD if it had the space. The major thing holding DCA at it's current numbers is slots and runways.

With that said all three airports serve an important role in the metro area's air travel. IAD is an international gateway, but it's also a growing domestic gateway for the exploding Loudoun County, Northern Fairfax County population and points west. DCA will always have an appeal as the close-in domestic option. BWI appeals to the Baltimore metro and DC's MD suburbs.

DC is a big metro, but it's not NYC or LA or Chicago for that matter. DC is more like comparing Dallas and Houston, with multiple airports and comparable populations. It has a setup that many in the Northern Atlanta suburbs would like to have so they didn't have to go down to ATL.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:55 pm

Noreastshuttle wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
I've never thought the BWI/DCA/IAD airport triad is comparable to JFK/EWR/LGA. The NYC area has 3x the population of DC/Baltimore. While DCA/LGA are very similar and in some ways IAD/JFK are, BWI/EWR definitely don't match up. EWR is a UA global hub while BWI has to use Maryland incentives just to keep a single LHR BA flight from moving to IAD.

The walk isn't bad from the terminal to the station as long as WMATA keeps the escalators working.

I agree the ride to Downtown will be long. Especially with Orange and Silver line separation at non-rush hour times. It will be decent time investment to take the METRO from Terminal C/D to a Downtown hotel, especially one closer to Capitol Hill

Work out those arms now. :D


Ohh no i hate this because I’m so protective but here it goes... lol

I think they are quite comparable in relation to functionality.
EWR and BWI are both:
- Fortress Hubs (Southwest-BWI 67% Market Share / United-EWR 50% Market Share)
- Service 2 markets (Its even in their names when advertised by the hub airline (Newark-New York / Baltimore/Washington )
- Accessible by Amtrak
- Are easier and quicker to get to by Public Transit than their region’s “Larger sized Airport” (JFK/IAD)


Let’s not downplay BWI importance, let alone passenger preference obviously. Think about it for a sec. BWI is the region BUSIEST airport when comes to people and literally did 4 million more people than Dulles with it’s little LHR incentive flight and IAD being a whole international and domestic hub for a big 3 network carrier. I don't know whether if it’s impressive for BWI or dispiriting for IAD. If we did this based on passenger numbers for the region compared to NYC Triad, BWI moves into JFK spot as comparable for most passengers for the Baltimore/DC Region..

Side Note:
I don’t hate Dulles as much as some of you love hating on BWI or anything that Maryland has thats better or does better than Virginia but whatever, facts are facts


It's not "hate" to point out that EWR is global hub and BWI is not. NYC has two global accessible airports in EWR and JFK. DC has one in IAD. Which makes sense since NYC is quite larger than DC.

BWI does drive high passenger counts because it's a domestic LCC/ULCC hub. It's also the sole airport for the Baltimore region and gets a fair amount of DC traffic as well. IAD/DCA are pretty much driven by the DC market.

As a side note, once the Silver Line is built out, all three airports will have about the same level of Public Transportation.
 
smokeybandit
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:02 pm

BWI is only 4 miles further from DC than IAD is.
 
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asuflyer05
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:24 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
BWI is only 4 miles further from DC than IAD is.


Yes, but the travel time at rush hour is significantly different. I'd much rather try and get between DC and IAD at rush hour than mess with 95 or the BW Parkway.
 
blockski
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:24 pm

Comparing IAD/DCA/BWI to EWR/LGA/JFK is only tempting because each metro area has three airports. Other than that, there's not a huge correlation.

DCA and LGA have more in common (constrained, domestic only, slot controlled, with perimeter rules in place), but after that, the comparison really breaks down.

It's quite remarkable for the DC area to have three airports of about the same size. No other region with multiple airports has that kind of balance.

Enplanements in 2018:

Washington/Baltimore:
BWI: 13.4m
DCA: 11.4m
IAD: 11.6m

New York:
JFK: 30.5
EWR: 22.8
LGA: 15.1

Bay Area:
SFO: 27.8
OAK: 6.8
SJC: 7.1

Miami:
MIA: 21.0
FLL: 17.6
PBI: 3.3

Los Angeles:
LAX: 42.6
SNA: 5.3
BUR: 2.4
ONT: 2.2

Chicago:
ORD: 39.8
MDW: 10.7

Dallas:
DFW: 32.8
DAL: 8.1

Houston:
IAH: 21.2
HOU: 6.9
 
smokeybandit
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:05 pm

asuflyer05 wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
BWI is only 4 miles further from DC than IAD is.


Yes, but the travel time at rush hour is significantly different. I'd much rather try and get between DC and IAD at rush hour than mess with 95 or the BW Parkway.


I wouldn't want to deal with either at rush hour
 
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United787
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:36 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
As a side note, once the Silver Line is built out, all three airports will have about the same level of Public Transportation.


Considering NYC still has NO 'direct' rail service to EWR, LGA and JFK, that is impressive. The AirTrains at JFK and EWR make it indirect, IMHO. And LGA has nothing.
 
dcaproducer
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:00 pm

United787 wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
As a side note, once the Silver Line is built out, all three airports will have about the same level of Public Transportation.


Considering NYC still has NO 'direct' rail service to EWR, LGA and JFK, that is impressive. The AirTrains at JFK and EWR make it indirect, IMHO. And LGA has nothing.


I would also argue that BWI doesn't have the same level of mass transit as IAD and DCA, which will both be on Metro. Getting to BWI requires a bus. MARC gets you close, but not to the terminal.
 
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United787
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:18 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
I would also argue that BWI doesn't have the same level of mass transit as IAD and DCA, which will both be on Metro. Getting to BWI requires a bus. MARC gets you close, but not to the terminal.


Doesn't the MTA Light Raillink go right into the BWI terminal?
 
smokeybandit
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:35 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
United787 wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
As a side note, once the Silver Line is built out, all three airports will have about the same level of Public Transportation.


Considering NYC still has NO 'direct' rail service to EWR, LGA and JFK, that is impressive. The AirTrains at JFK and EWR make it indirect, IMHO. And LGA has nothing.


I would also argue that BWI doesn't have the same level of mass transit as IAD and DCA, which will both be on Metro. Getting to BWI requires a bus. MARC gets you close, but not to the terminal.


The light rail goes right to the terminal.
 
dcaproducer
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:32 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
United787 wrote:

Considering NYC still has NO 'direct' rail service to EWR, LGA and JFK, that is impressive. The AirTrains at JFK and EWR make it indirect, IMHO. And LGA has nothing.


I would also argue that BWI doesn't have the same level of mass transit as IAD and DCA, which will both be on Metro. Getting to BWI requires a bus. MARC gets you close, but not to the terminal.


The light rail goes right to the terminal.


To clarify my post, that does not get you there from downtown DC.
From DC and the NOVA suburbs you have to connect, where as DCA and soon IAD are both on the Metro system.

Unless I'm missing something, I see no way to use the Baltimore light rail to get to BWI from DC.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/mta-website-st ... 0_2019.pdf
 
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msp747
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:16 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
asuflyer05 wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
BWI is only 4 miles further from DC than IAD is.


Yes, but the travel time at rush hour is significantly different. I'd much rather try and get between DC and IAD at rush hour than mess with 95 or the BW Parkway.


I wouldn't want to deal with either at rush hour

The only reason IAD might be better than BWI during rush hour is that half of the drive would be on the Dulles Access Road, which moves at freeway speeds even at rush hour. HOWEVER, getting to the access road is no treat and one could easily argue that the stretch from DC to that road is worse than I-95/BW Pkwy.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:58 pm

msp747 wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
asuflyer05 wrote:

Yes, but the travel time at rush hour is significantly different. I'd much rather try and get between DC and IAD at rush hour than mess with 95 or the BW Parkway.


I wouldn't want to deal with either at rush hour

The only reason IAD might be better than BWI during rush hour is that half of the drive would be on the Dulles Access Road, which moves at freeway speeds even at rush hour. HOWEVER, getting to the access road is no treat and one could easily argue that the stretch from DC to that road is worse than I-95/BW Pkwy.


Even when I-66 or the GW Parkway are at their worst, it's still easier than the mess of NY Ave or 395-295-US50 just to get to the BW Parkway. It's no comparison.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:59 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
United787 wrote:

Considering NYC still has NO 'direct' rail service to EWR, LGA and JFK, that is impressive. The AirTrains at JFK and EWR make it indirect, IMHO. And LGA has nothing.


I would also argue that BWI doesn't have the same level of mass transit as IAD and DCA, which will both be on Metro. Getting to BWI requires a bus. MARC gets you close, but not to the terminal.


The light rail goes right to the terminal.


That's great if you live in Baltimore. Not so much for people coming from DC.

Baltimore travelers can connect to METRO at Union Station. There's no connection between Baltimore's Light Rail and Amtrak/MARC without passing the airport by a decent distance.
Last edited by izbtmnhd on Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
blockski
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:04 pm

msp747 wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
asuflyer05 wrote:

Yes, but the travel time at rush hour is significantly different. I'd much rather try and get between DC and IAD at rush hour than mess with 95 or the BW Parkway.


I wouldn't want to deal with either at rush hour

The only reason IAD might be better than BWI during rush hour is that half of the drive would be on the Dulles Access Road, which moves at freeway speeds even at rush hour. HOWEVER, getting to the access road is no treat and one could easily argue that the stretch from DC to that road is worse than I-95/BW Pkwy.


Well, right now (5pm on a weekday), Google Maps from the White House to Dulles has a drive time of 39 minutes (with tolls along I-66). Drive time to BWI is 74 minutes.

The big difference isn't just the distance, nor the Dulles access road, but the travel in and out of the city. Dulles has better highway access via I-66; the tolls in the peak direction speed traffic substantially. Even getting to 95 from within DC isn't easy, as there aren't a lot of highway options in the first place, and they're all very congested.
 
capitalflyer
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:57 pm

Cross posting from another thread for our discussion, IB is back at IAD with 4x to MAD then 5x later. Using A330. What gate will IB share? Departure is 10:30pm.

From the OAG thread, B6 is adding MVY service and ramping up BOS even more. MVY is an interesting addition, I would imagine with an E190. I wouldn't have thought there was that big a market to MVY from DC.

B6 seems to be focusing in on competing directly with AA and dropping routes to second tier destinations like JAX and BDL. Does AA need to respond in anyway? A slot proceeding at DCA right now would be very interesting to see the fur fly.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:35 pm

Noreastshuttle wrote:

Ohh no i hate this because I’m so protective but here it goes... lol

I think they are quite comparable in relation to functionality.
EWR and BWI are both:
- Fortress Hubs (Southwest-BWI 67% Market Share / United-EWR 50% Market Share)


Fundamentally disagree with the notion that these two airports are fortess hubs. You need really 80%+ market share to be a fortress hub. CLT is a fortress hub. UA is almost a fortress hub at IAH with 78% share. 50% share is NOT a fortress hub. 67% is dominant but not a fortress.

Noreastshuttle wrote:
- Service 2 markets (Its even in their names when advertised by the hub airline (Newark-New York / Baltimore/Washington )


OK. So?
Noreastshuttle wrote:
- Accessible by Amtrak


EWR is accessible by Amtrak but of the 40 or so trains that go from Penn Station to DC, only 10 stop at EWR airport.


Noreastshuttle wrote:
- Are easier and quicker to get to by Public Transit than their region’s “Larger sized Airport” (JFK/IAD)


Completely debateable and subjective dependent on where you are. IAD is about to be on the Metro line directly linking it to DC proper. BWI isn't.

Noreastshuttle wrote:
Let’s not downplay BWI importance, let alone passenger preference obviously. Think about it for a sec. BWI is the region BUSIEST airport when comes to people and literally did 4 million more people than Dulles with it’s little LHR incentive flight and IAD being a whole international and domestic hub for a big 3 network carrier. I don't know whether if it’s impressive for BWI or dispiriting for IAD. If we did this based on passenger numbers for the region compared to NYC Triad, BWI moves into JFK spot as comparable for most passengers for the Baltimore/DC Region..


BWI and JFK should not be included in the same sentence. BWI currently has scheduled service to ONE city in Europe. JFK has service to dozens of European cities. BWI may have heavy passenger totals, but that does not give it clout. BWI is more akin to Gatwick which is discount carrier city compared to IAD and DCA.

Noreastshuttle wrote:
Side Note:
I don’t hate Dulles as much as some of you love hating on BWI or anything that Maryland has thats better or does better than Virginia but whatever, facts are facts


If you ask any my colleagues which airport they'd rather fly out of, 25/26 on my floor would say IAD or DCA. Only one would say BWI - and that is because he lives in Annapolis.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:39 pm

msp747 wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
asuflyer05 wrote:

Yes, but the travel time at rush hour is significantly different. I'd much rather try and get between DC and IAD at rush hour than mess with 95 or the BW Parkway.


I wouldn't want to deal with either at rush hour

The only reason IAD might be better than BWI during rush hour is that half of the drive would be on the Dulles Access Road, which moves at freeway speeds even at rush hour. HOWEVER, getting to the access road is no treat and one could easily argue that the stretch from DC to that road is worse than I-95/BW Pkwy.


Just the reverse. I-95 and the BW Parkway are disasters. If you get caught in traffic on the BW Parkway, there are very few placed to bail out.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:35 pm

Just for kicks:

1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW to IAD: 38 minutes (26.5 miles)
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW to BWI: 77 minutes (32 miles)

50 Massachusetts Ave NW to IAD: 46 minutes (28.5 miles)
50 Massachusetts Ave NW to BWI: 66 minutes (30.6 miles)

National Harbor to IAD: 41 minutes (35.7 miles)
National Harbor to BWI: 72 minutes (37.6 miles)

Montgomery County Courthouse to IAD: 30 minutes (26.4 miles)
Montgomery County Courthouse to BWI: 53 minutes (35.8 miles)
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:55 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
BWI and JFK should not be included in the same sentence. BWI currently has scheduled service to ONE city in Europe. JFK has service to dozens of European cities. BWI may have heavy passenger totals, but that does not give it clout. BWI is more akin to Gatwick which is discount carrier city compared to IAD and DCA.


I agree with your point. That being said, LGW is still way more global then BWI. It's not much of a player internationally, except for Caribbean spots.

washingtonflyer wrote:

Just for kicks:

National Harbor to IAD: 41 minutes (35.7 miles)
National Harbor to BWI: 72 minutes (37.6 miles)

Montgomery County Courthouse to IAD: 30 minutes (26.4 miles)
Montgomery County Courthouse to BWI: 53 minutes (35.8 miles)


And these two spots require the infamous Beltway Potomac Bridge crossings to get to IAD. 'Nuff said here!
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:05 pm

And just so we can be completely crazy:

Prince Georges County Government Center to IAD: 57 minutes (51.2 miles)
Prince Georges County Government Center to BWI: 53 minutes (32 miles)

Yes, 20 miles further but only 4 minutes more.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:13 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
Fundamentally disagree with the notion that these two airports are fortess hubs. You need really 80%+ market share to be a fortress hub. CLT is a fortress hub. UA is almost a fortress hub at IAH with 78% share. 50% share is NOT a fortress hub. 67% is dominant but not a fortress.

Percentages aside, make no mistake, United owns EWR. It is absolutely a fortress hub regardless of market share. There's very little effective domestic competition. I've never heard of any specific percentage of market share being correlated to the term, so setting it at 80% is an extremely high bar, in my opinion. I correlate "fortress hub" with the amount of influence a single airline holds and how far they'll go to limit competition, rather than correlate that to any metrics.

That said, I don't think any DC airport could be considered a fortress hub. While UA at IAD is clearly the dominant carrier, they don't attempt to protect their turf to the same extent as they would in EWR. Their focus has always been on int'l ops, which doesn't make for a fortress hub. Southwest at BWI is also clearly the dominant carrier, but they have some reasonable competition, not to mention they technically don't have any hubs.
 
DALMD80
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:18 pm

Hey, do we know if Air Canada is going to use an A220 for service to BWI?
Farewell to the Mad Dogs- the first week of June 2020 will be remembered by most of us here on A.net as the day the Mad Dogs left.
 
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Blimpie
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:22 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
United787 wrote:

Considering NYC still has NO 'direct' rail service to EWR, LGA and JFK, that is impressive. The AirTrains at JFK and EWR make it indirect, IMHO. And LGA has nothing.


I would also argue that BWI doesn't have the same level of mass transit as IAD and DCA, which will both be on Metro. Getting to BWI requires a bus. MARC gets you close, but not to the terminal.


The light rail goes right to the terminal.


and, WMATA still has the green line extension to BWI on their long term plan. I doubt I will live to see it, but it is still on their CTP.
Now get the hell off of my lawn your dang kids!
 
DALMD80
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:40 pm

Another question about BWI, do aircraft EVER takeoff from 33L? I've spotted there several times and arrivals were on 33L/R but departures were on 28!
Farewell to the Mad Dogs- the first week of June 2020 will be remembered by most of us here on A.net as the day the Mad Dogs left.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:59 am

DALMD80 wrote:
Another question about BWI, do aircraft EVER takeoff from 33L? I've spotted there several times and arrivals were on 33L/R but departures were on 28!


Done 33L several times, but its been a few years since Ive flown out of BWI.
 
blockski
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:22 pm

Blimpie wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:

I would also argue that BWI doesn't have the same level of mass transit as IAD and DCA, which will both be on Metro. Getting to BWI requires a bus. MARC gets you close, but not to the terminal.


The light rail goes right to the terminal.


and, WMATA still has the green line extension to BWI on their long term plan. I doubt I will live to see it, but it is still on their CTP.


No, this is not part of any WMATA plan.
 
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United787
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:35 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
Unless I'm missing something, I see no way to use the Baltimore light rail to get to BWI from DC.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/mta-website-st ... 0_2019.pdf


izbtmnhd wrote:
That's great if you live in Baltimore. Not so much for people coming from DC.

Baltimore travelers can connect to METRO at Union Station. There's no connection between Baltimore's Light Rail and Amtrak/MARC without passing the airport by a decent distance.


My point was that all three Washington area airports will have 'direct' access to their city's mass transit systems which is a lot more than NYC and LA and many large US cities can say. Of course, BWI connects to Baltimore's transit system, not DC's because the airport primarily serves the Baltimore metro area. Of course it also serves the combined Washington/Baltimore area which is why we are discussing it here but because it isn't served by the WMATA doesn't make my point any less valid. DCA and IAD aren't served by the MTA.
 
bkflyguy
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:07 pm

Blimpie wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:

I would also argue that BWI doesn't have the same level of mass transit as IAD and DCA, which will both be on Metro. Getting to BWI requires a bus. MARC gets you close, but not to the terminal.


The light rail goes right to the terminal.


and, WMATA still has the green line extension to BWI on their long term plan. I doubt I will live to see it, but it is still on their CTP.


What Maryland should do (although this requires working with Amtrak to increase track capacity and a new tunnel that is currently in the planning stages) is run a MARC train shuttle between Union Station BWI and Baltimore (with a stop in Silver Spring), This train should depart every 20 minutes during the day to provide fast service from DC and Baltimore to BWI. BWI should also build an automated train from the train stations, long term and daily parking to the terminal, which I think is part of a Long-Term Master Plan (i.e. over 20 years away).
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:51 pm

United787 wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
Unless I'm missing something, I see no way to use the Baltimore light rail to get to BWI from DC.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/mta-website-st ... 0_2019.pdf


izbtmnhd wrote:
That's great if you live in Baltimore. Not so much for people coming from DC.

Baltimore travelers can connect to METRO at Union Station. There's no connection between Baltimore's Light Rail and Amtrak/MARC without passing the airport by a decent distance.


My point was that all three Washington area airports will have 'direct' access to their city's mass transit systems which is a lot more than NYC and LA and many large US cities can say. Of course, BWI connects to Baltimore's transit system, not DC's because the airport primarily serves the Baltimore metro area. Of course it also serves the combined Washington/Baltimore area which is why we are discussing it here but because it isn't served by the WMATA doesn't make my point any less valid. DCA and IAD aren't served by the MTA.


Locals here are talking about the practical nature of using transit to get to BWI. If one is going to say "transit goes right to the terminal" then it needs be clarified that the transit is Baltimore oriented. It also needs to be pointed out the Baltimore area only makes up about 1/3 of the population of the DC/Balt Metro. So for the majority of people living in the region MTA light rail isn't a realistic transit option and the airport is "slightly disconnected" like JFK and EWR in the NYC metro.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:06 pm

For people coming to BWI from DC and wanting to use a public transit option, BWI is as connected to DC as JFK is connected to Manhattan (i.e., there is no direct link where you depart your transit method and walk into a terminal). Both require a dedicated, separate link to the terminals: Air Train at JFK and the shuttle bus from the BWI Amtrak/MARC station to the terminals.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:11 pm

bkflyguy wrote:
Blimpie wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:

The light rail goes right to the terminal.


and, WMATA still has the green line extension to BWI on their long term plan. I doubt I will live to see it, but it is still on their CTP.


What Maryland should do (although this requires working with Amtrak to increase track capacity and a new tunnel that is currently in the planning stages) is run a MARC train shuttle between Union Station BWI and Baltimore (with a stop in Silver Spring), This train should depart every 20 minutes during the day to provide fast service from DC and Baltimore to BWI. BWI should also build an automated train from the train stations, long term and daily parking to the terminal, which I think is part of a Long-Term Master Plan (i.e. over 20 years away).


Having a train stop in Silver Spring means following trackage that is owned by CSX, not Amtrak. That line then proceeds northwest towards Gaithersburg and Point of Rocks. You would have to build an entire line north and east towards Laurel and then the Camden line if you wanted to tie into the BWI trackage.

This proposition simply won't happen. You're more likely to see dedicated bus shuttle service from DC before you see billions of dollars spent on trackage from Silver Spring.
 
dcaproducer
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:42 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
For people coming to BWI from DC and wanting to use a public transit option, BWI is as connected to DC as JFK is connected to Manhattan (i.e., there is no direct link where you depart your transit method and walk into a terminal). Both require a dedicated, separate link to the terminals: Air Train at JFK and the shuttle bus from the BWI Amtrak/MARC station to the terminals.


I agree with this.
I'll also add that IAD and DCA are run by WMAA, who want as many passengers as possible using their facilities. Connecting to WMATA helps them do this.

Also, in my opinion, BWI is losing its appeal as the "cheaper" airport to fly out of. I fly every month for work. 6-7 years ago, several times a year out of BWI. I can't recall the last time I went up to BWI for a flight. The fares at DCA have come more in-line with other airports, and by the time you factor in transport and parking, BWI is generally not cheaper.

There's nothing wrong w/ BWI if you live in Baltimore. It's just not the best solution if you live in Northern Virginia or downtown DC.
 
NiMar
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:29 pm

My wife and I usually told friends and visitors that they should only fly into BWI if it was $100 cheaper a ticket to make up for the inconvenience. Of course I lived in Alexandria...
 
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msp747
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:32 am

washingtonflyer wrote:
msp747 wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:

I wouldn't want to deal with either at rush hour

The only reason IAD might be better than BWI during rush hour is that half of the drive would be on the Dulles Access Road, which moves at freeway speeds even at rush hour. HOWEVER, getting to the access road is no treat and one could easily argue that the stretch from DC to that road is worse than I-95/BW Pkwy.


Just the reverse. I-95 and the BW Parkway are disasters. If you get caught in traffic on the BW Parkway, there are very few placed to bail out.

I stand corrected. I guess my lack of driving that stretch shows. I know the BW Parkway is a disaster (learned the hard way once), but didn't think 95 was that much worse than GW Parkway/Beltway/Access Rd. I left out I-66 just because of how crazy the tolls can get during rush hour.
 
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ChaseCLT
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:40 am

I live downtown DC and I use all 3 for leisure. I think bwi is faster to get to than iad in mass transit so it’s more convenient and faster imo.

Bwi is usually cheaper. Though I’m generally willing to pay a premium every now and then for dca. But I fly nearly every other weekend to see family. Those $23 one ways to Charlotte (spirit And American have been consistently less than $40 for months) sure beats $350 round trips to iad/dca.

Marc is pretty direct to bwi. I mean. It’s a very short shuttle bus ride. No different than long term parking etc
 
USAirALB
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:27 am

I live about a 6 min walk away from the NoMa station (1 stop north of Union on the Red Line), and it usually takes me:

-35 minutes to get to DCA (transfer at Gallery)
-75 minutes to get to IAD (transfer at Metro Ctr, transfer at Rosslyn to bus 5A)
-65 minutes to get to BWI (connect at Union to MARC, transfer to shuttle bus)

Because of my location, I should prefer DCA and BWI over IAD. But for some reason, I absolutely hate going to BWI. I find the amenities at the airport (specifically the AA concourse) to be outdated and the concourse to be dark and old. Mentally I think it is further simply because I have to take commuter rail to get there when I can take Metro/Metrobus to DCA and IAD. Yes, I know Metro also has a bus to BWI, but Greenbelt is far for me and the bus schedule isn't convenient. I hate the shuttle bus from the BWI rail station to the terminal as well. It's always crowded.

I actually prefer IAD over DCA. I really, really like Concourses A/B. They are actually two of my favorite terminal buildings in the US. I also like the Priority Pass lounges at IAD. It's always fun to see the foreign flagged carriers at IAD, as well. There is usually no one ever on the 5A bus, and it is pretty quick.

DCA is good, as with TSA Pre and Clear, I can show up just as my flight is boarding and simply walk on. It's crowded though, and I don't think the amenities are as nice as IAD.
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smokeybandit
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:45 am

ALl three airports are top 25 airports. They all serve a purpose (obviously) and must be doing something right.
 
zuckie13
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Re: DC/VA/MD Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:10 pm

DALMD80 wrote:
Another question about BWI, do aircraft EVER takeoff from 33L? I've spotted there several times and arrivals were on 33L/R but departures were on 28!


It's fairly uncommon - use of both main runways is always preferred - but does happen occasionally.

Generally the preferred configuration winds allowing is Land 33L, Depart 28.
2nd Choice is Land 10, Depart 15R

Once in a while, winds will force single runway ops - that's when its most likely to happen.
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