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ILNFlyer
Posts: 391
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:34 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:28 pm

cvgComair wrote:
ILNFlyer wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
I'm not sure if its been mentioned here, but Amazon recently broke ground on its site at CVG: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/ ... g-hub.html

Image


I do not understand why they are going to have 2 hubs, ILN and CVG, so close to each other. Does anyone get that? makes no sense for them t0 put $90M into ILN just to turn around and spend horrid amounts of money at CVG for the same type of operation.

ILN is for relief until CVG opens. Phase 1 of CVG opens in 2021, but we are 5-8 years away from the full opening, which will be massive. Phase 1 has 100 parking spaces, with the remaining land more than adequate for 100-200 more. They can’t open up that type of operation overnight, which is why they need ILN build up everything. $90M is a drop in the bucket compared to the billions they are spending at CVG.

I would imagine they haven’t decided what ILN will be long term once all of CVG is open.


That makes more sense. I guess ILN will only be temporary then, until CVG is fully open.
 
Link4444
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:45 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:36 am

SgtBarone wrote:
Updated figures for CAK from the airport's website:

- 2018 total passengers: 920,002 (-27.3% YOY)
- January 2019 total passengers: 64,042 (-14.3% YOY)

Does anyone have any ideas how to turn CAK around?
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2567
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:05 am

Link4444 wrote:
SgtBarone wrote:
Updated figures for CAK from the airport's website:

- 2018 total passengers: 920,002 (-27.3% YOY)
- January 2019 total passengers: 64,042 (-14.3% YOY)

Does anyone have any ideas how to turn CAK around?

I don't think it can be turned around unfortunately. Like DAY, the reality is that CAK was always over-inflated by pax bleed from CLE being a high-fare fortress hub. With fares at the primary airport in the region now competitive, we're seeing a market correction at CAK with service levels adjusting to serve the actual local market.
 
CMHtraveler
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:55 pm

Link4444 wrote:
Does anyone have any ideas how to turn CAK around?


CAK is an awkward distance from CLE (a little less than an hours’ drive), to the point where (at least according to this article from when CAK lost G4 and gained NK), airlines can’t even agree on whether it’s a different market or not: https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/90791266.

I bring up G4 because typically, they might be the type of airline to do well at an airport like CAK. They’ve set up quite a nice little operation at LCK in a city that isn’t really big enough to have a second airport. That being said, LCK is half the distance from CMH as CAK is from CLE and flights are clearly advertised as “Columbus-Rickenbacker to XYZ”.

I wonder if there might be an opportunity to lure G4 back to CAK at some point in the future, even if it means operating out of both airports as NK does? Surely operating costs are lower, and the airport is more passenger friendly solely on the basis of being smaller. It seems CAK is too close to CLE for the big 4 to offer much hope, but LCCs/ULCCS like G4 might could potentially find a niche there moving forward.
 
NoTime
Posts: 596
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:21 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:21 pm

Link4444 wrote:
SgtBarone wrote:
Updated figures for CAK from the airport's website:

- 2018 total passengers: 920,002 (-27.3% YOY)
- January 2019 total passengers: 64,042 (-14.3% YOY)

Does anyone have any ideas how to turn CAK around?


Not sure I see that happening, which is a shame. With CLE, CMH and PIT limiting CAK's catchment area, perhaps the airport can refocus on offering service to their immediate area, plus all points due south on I77? From New Philly to Cambridge to Marietta? Granted, that's not much. But, other than that, I don't see how they can grow all that much except for maybe some extra G4 or NK flights.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1202
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:42 pm

Why is it a shame for CAK to be losing passengers to CLE (and probably PIT and CMH too)? Isn’t it better for NEO to have a single main airport that is as strong as possible?
 
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boscmh
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:49 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:17 pm

^ I agree. Nowadays you really need a certain scale to be able to thrive. CVG/CMH/CLE are all right about at that threshold. And they need all the help they can get. I don't mind seeing more traffic funneled into them by the downsizing of DAY, CAK, etc. Those airports will never be at a scale to offer anything besides some RJs to legacy hubs, and florida/ vacation market fluff. Anything beyond that only hurts our state's main airports by siphoning off pax
 
NoTime
Posts: 596
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:21 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:51 pm

ncflyer wrote:
Why is it a shame for CAK to be losing passengers to CLE (and probably PIT and CMH too)? Isn’t it better for NEO to have a single main airport that is as strong as possible?


I mean it's just a shame to see any airport in decline - just generally speaking. A strange dichotomy, I know, since I'm more than happy to see CMH growing - even if it's siphoning pax from CAK.
 
marvinanderson1
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:39 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:24 pm

Yes funnel all Ohio traffic into three inadequate airports , with one airport being in Kentucky. I could understand if you were talking ORD, ATL,LAX, or JFK. But we are talking CLE, CMH, and CVG, three mid- size airports that go up and down themselves. CAK and DAY serve important areas of their own and they will find their niche. There are several new LCC carriers coming into existence soon that will be focused on secondary airports, and both CAK and DAY have a good record of being relevant before, hopefully they will again.
 
DeltaRules
Topic Author
Posts: 4967
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:26 pm

In theory, the benefit of having DAY and CAK with reasonable levels of service means it gives the customer a decent amount of choice and convenience, especially since it can eliminate an hour's drive to CMH/LCK/CVG from Dayton and CLE from Akron/Canton (ignoring other more remote areas like along I-77). DAY's an easier airport to use than CMH or CVG. I've only visited CAK and have never been to CLE at all, but I'm assuming it's the same situation.

Fares aren't necessarily supporting that but, if you pare service down to the three Cs, fares could go back up anyway.

I think DAY will have a fair amount of service into the future if for no other reason than WPAFB being in town. Airlines could add there, but the dots on the map seem fewer than the bigger counterparts.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
bigred10k
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:35 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:57 pm

marvinanderson1 wrote:
Yes funnel all Ohio traffic into three inadequate airports , with one airport being in Kentucky. I could understand if you were talking ORD, ATL,LAX, or JFK. But we are talking CLE, CMH, and CVG, three mid- size airports that go up and down themselves. CAK and DAY serve important areas of their own and they will find their niche. There are several new LCC carriers coming into existence soon that will be focused on secondary airports, and both CAK and DAY have a good record of being relevant before, hopefully they will again.


Exactly. Competition is a good thing. Before Delta de-hubbed at CVG, prices there were astronomical (second only to ANC). DAY filled in the void quite nicely during that time, particularly for leisure travelers.

Living in SW Ohio, I've always preferred flying out of DAY (35 minutes away) over CVG (65 minutes away) or CMH (75 minutes away). Then there is the issue of getting to CVG (e.g., the nearly weekly occurrence of a car or truck stalled on the I-71/75 "Brent Spence" bridge) and the time it takes to get to the gates.

Also, I don't understand the love for the 3x3 seating config on a main line 737 or A320. So what, its a bigger plane (and I will never fly Frontier again given its limited seat pitch). But if I am stuck in economy, I'd rather be on a 2x2 config (CRJ) or a 2x3 config (MD-80/90). And forget about upgrading as a DL silver or gold out of CVG with all of the DL fanatics there. Switched to AA shortly after the DL/NW merger and it has worked out quite nicely. Plus I can throw my support to the only Ohio based airline (PSA).
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1202
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:18 pm

I don’t understand the argument about competition. I think CAK and DAY are on decline because the fortress hubs are gone, and fares at CVG and CLE (not as familiar with CMH myself. . . ) have fallen pretty dramatically. If anything a bigger CVGand CLE have a greater prayer of handling more competition. I think boscmh put it well, those smaller airports can only hope to gain RJs to hubs.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5384
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:11 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
...(Using Day and CAK) can eliminate an hour's drive to CMH/LCK/CVG from Dayton and CLE from Akron/Canton (ignoring other more remote areas like along I-77).


An hour's drive *OR MORE*, during rush hour or any kind of precipitation, is what it takes to get to all of Washington's airports (DCA, IAD, and BWI) by road from much of the region. An hour's drive or more is pretty standard in lots of big cities. I don't see it as a great inconvenience. Most parts of Akron to CLE is more like 45 minutes, although I agree Canton takes longer. Unfortunately, the writing is on the wall for the smaller airports unless there is a technological advance that makes 50-seaters more profitable.

CAK thrived ONLY when CLE fares were high; it was the money, not the distance that drove the pax numbers, as ncflyer said.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2567
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:42 pm

bigred10k wrote:
marvinanderson1 wrote:
Yes funnel all Ohio traffic into three inadequate airports , with one airport being in Kentucky. I could understand if you were talking ORD, ATL,LAX, or JFK. But we are talking CLE, CMH, and CVG, three mid- size airports that go up and down themselves. CAK and DAY serve important areas of their own and they will find their niche. There are several new LCC carriers coming into existence soon that will be focused on secondary airports, and both CAK and DAY have a good record of being relevant before, hopefully they will again.


Exactly. Competition is a good thing. Before Delta de-hubbed at CVG, prices there were astronomical (second only to ANC). DAY filled in the void quite nicely during that time, particularly for leisure travelers.

Living in SW Ohio, I've always preferred flying out of DAY (35 minutes away) over CVG (65 minutes away) or CMH (75 minutes away). Then there is the issue of getting to CVG (e.g., the nearly weekly occurrence of a car or truck stalled on the I-71/75 "Brent Spence" bridge) and the time it takes to get to the gates.

Also, I don't understand the love for the 3x3 seating config on a main line 737 or A320. So what, its a bigger plane (and I will never fly Frontier again given its limited seat pitch). But if I am stuck in economy, I'd rather be on a 2x2 config (CRJ) or a 2x3 config (MD-80/90). And forget about upgrading as a DL silver or gold out of CVG with all of the DL fanatics there. Switched to AA shortly after the DL/NW merger and it has worked out quite nicely. Plus I can throw my support to the only Ohio based airline (PSA).

Sorry, might have made sense for you, but for the large population centers CMH, CLE and CVG actually serve it really wasn't a great experience having to haul yourself an hour's drive plus away to catch a flight at a decent fare from DAY/CAK/IND/SDF. Actually having competitive low fares at CVG, CMH and CLE HAS been brought about by the consumer choice and competition you're talking about thankfully. Now all of this doesn't mean DAY and CAK are irrelevant...they do have their own local markets to serve that will always warrant some level of service, but they can no longer depend on the drive traffic from the larger cities who were fleeing previously high fares.
 
DeltaRules
Topic Author
Posts: 4967
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:38 pm

masseybrown wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
...(Using Day and CAK) can eliminate an hour's drive to CMH/LCK/CVG from Dayton and CLE from Akron/Canton (ignoring other more remote areas like along I-77).


An hour's drive *OR MORE*, during rush hour or any kind of precipitation, is what it takes to get to all of Washington's airports (DCA, IAD, and BWI) by road from much of the region. An hour's drive or more is pretty standard in lots of big cities. I don't see it as a great inconvenience. Most parts of Akron to CLE is more like 45 minutes, although I agree Canton takes longer. Unfortunately, the writing is on the wall for the smaller airports unless there is a technological advance that makes 50-seaters more profitable.

CAK thrived ONLY when CLE fares were high; it was the money, not the distance that drove the pax numbers, as ncflyer said.


Right, but if you live in Fairborn, it doesn't take you an hour to get to DAY, just as it doesn't take you an hour to get from Alexandria or Downtown DC to DCA. It reaches a point where the question comes up as to whether or not paying a premium for the convenience of flying out of DAY/CAK is worth skipping a cheaper ticket out of CVG/CLE (assuming you're comparing carriers which operate from both).

Plus, it's not an "Akron to CLE" thing; there are entire regions in Western and East Central Ohio where DAY and CAK are still the closest option (and it was suggested IAH-CAK may have come back due in part to the oil ties in the region).
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
Link4444
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:45 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:03 am

ncflyer wrote:
I don’t understand the argument about competition. I think CAK and DAY are on decline because the fortress hubs are gone, and fares at CVG and CLE (not as familiar with CMH myself. . . ) have fallen pretty dramatically. If anything a bigger CVGand CLE have a greater prayer of handling more competition. I think boscmh put it well, those smaller airports can only hope to gain RJs to hubs.

I agree, I think the beginning of the end to CAK was the United/Continental merger and de-hub at CLE. They had to go after CAK business
to make up for loss of Revenue. I have been a ramper at CAK for 17 years and they are putting some hope in the modernization of the gates program
going on now. It definitely needs done but that obviously isn't the problem. Southwest had 3 decent gates and a new ops/ticket counter,etc.(and basketball court-smile)
and left. I had a bad feeling went they first took over here and tryed CAK-MDW and it didn't work. It was downhill after that 15 flt...14flts...7 flts..3 flts DONE.
Does anyone know if Delta,United or American get some sort of Federal subsidity to fly into CAK? I don't get why Delta even still here other then cheap labor
with $9.00 an hour DGS.
 
CMHtraveler
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:47 pm

From the weekly OAG thread;
DL CMH-SLC JAN 0.9>0.2[0]

This must be a misfile right? They aren’t trimming the route down to almost nothing before it even begins, are they? I don’t recall any mention of the service being anything other than daily.
 
jbmitt
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 3:59 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:55 pm

CMHtraveler wrote:
From the weekly OAG thread;
DL CMH-SLC JAN 0.9>0.2[0]

This must be a misfile right? They aren’t trimming the route down to almost nothing before it even begins, are they? I don’t recall any mention of the service being anything other than daily.


Could be a combination of poor ticket sales and limited space at SLC during construction.
 
User avatar
Cvgspotter15
Posts: 361
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 6:14 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:52 pm

CMHtraveler wrote:
From the weekly OAG thread;
DL CMH-SLC JAN 0.9>0.2[0]

This must be a misfile right? They aren’t trimming the route down to almost nothing before it even begins, are they? I don’t recall any mention of the service being anything other than daily.


Some (at least in my experience with CVG) times the OAG threads only go partly into the month (hence the low daily percentage if its only filed to say January 15th). I would not worry about a cut like that this early in my opinion.
 
User avatar
Cvgspotter15
Posts: 361
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 6:14 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:54 pm

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
CMHtraveler wrote:
From the weekly OAG thread;
DL CMH-SLC JAN 0.9>0.2[0]

This must be a misfile right? They aren’t trimming the route down to almost nothing before it even begins, are they? I don’t recall any mention of the service being anything other than daily.


Some (at least in my experience with CVG) times the OAG threads only go partly into the month (hence the low daily percentage if its only filed to say January 15th). I would not worry about a cut like that this early in my opinion.


enilria also said there were many misfiles with this update.
 
CMHtraveler
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:25 pm

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
Some (at least in my experience with CVG) times the OAG threads only go partly into the month (hence the low daily percentage if its only filed to say January 15th). I would not worry about a cut like that this early in my opinion.


That makes sense, thanks. Hopefully that’s the case. If bookings were really so poor that they were considering cutting frequency on the route before it launched, I can’t imagine they’d wait until January to make adjustments.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1537
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:13 am

CMHtraveler wrote:
Cvgspotter15 wrote:
Some (at least in my experience with CVG) times the OAG threads only go partly into the month (hence the low daily percentage if its only filed to say January 15th). I would not worry about a cut like that this early in my opinion.


That makes sense, thanks. Hopefully that’s the case. If bookings were really so poor that they were considering cutting frequency on the route before it launched, I can’t imagine they’d wait until January to make adjustments.

Why? January is one of, if not the slowest time of the year. If you are going to cut capacity, that is when you are going to do it.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1537
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:17 am

masseybrown wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
...(Using Day and CAK) can eliminate an hour's drive to CMH/LCK/CVG from Dayton and CLE from Akron/Canton (ignoring other more remote areas like along I-77).


An hour's drive *OR MORE*, during rush hour or any kind of precipitation, is what it takes to get to all of Washington's airports (DCA, IAD, and BWI) by road from much of the region. An hour's drive or more is pretty standard in lots of big cities. I don't see it as a great inconvenience. Most parts of Akron to CLE is more like 45 minutes, although I agree Canton takes longer. Unfortunately, the writing is on the wall for the smaller airports unless there is a technological advance that makes 50-seaters more profitable.

CAK thrived ONLY when CLE fares were high; it was the money, not the distance that drove the pax numbers, as ncflyer said.

That may be true, but we don’t live in DC, we live in Ohio. I don’t have to worry about traffic in the Beltway on Saturday or whether It is going to take me 15 minutes to go one mile on Georgia Avenue.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1537
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:23 am

flyguy89 wrote:
bigred10k wrote:
marvinanderson1 wrote:
Yes funnel all Ohio traffic into three inadequate airports , with one airport being in Kentucky. I could understand if you were talking ORD, ATL,LAX, or JFK. But we are talking CLE, CMH, and CVG, three mid- size airports that go up and down themselves. CAK and DAY serve important areas of their own and they will find their niche. There are several new LCC carriers coming into existence soon that will be focused on secondary airports, and both CAK and DAY have a good record of being relevant before, hopefully they will again.


Exactly. Competition is a good thing. Before Delta de-hubbed at CVG, prices there were astronomical (second only to ANC). DAY filled in the void quite nicely during that time, particularly for leisure travelers.

Living in SW Ohio, I've always preferred flying out of DAY (35 minutes away) over CVG (65 minutes away) or CMH (75 minutes away). Then there is the issue of getting to CVG (e.g., the nearly weekly occurrence of a car or truck stalled on the I-71/75 "Brent Spence" bridge) and the time it takes to get to the gates.

Also, I don't understand the love for the 3x3 seating config on a main line 737 or A320. So what, its a bigger plane (and I will never fly Frontier again given its limited seat pitch). But if I am stuck in economy, I'd rather be on a 2x2 config (CRJ) or a 2x3 config (MD-80/90). And forget about upgrading as a DL silver or gold out of CVG with all of the DL fanatics there. Switched to AA shortly after the DL/NW merger and it has worked out quite nicely. Plus I can throw my support to the only Ohio based airline (PSA).

Sorry, might have made sense for you, but for the large population centers CMH, CLE and CVG actually serve it really wasn't a great experience having to haul yourself an hour's drive plus away to catch a flight at a decent fare from DAY/CAK/IND/SDF. Actually having competitive low fares at CVG, CMH and CLE HAS been brought about by the consumer choice and competition you're talking about thankfully. Now all of this doesn't mean DAY and CAK are irrelevant...they do have their own local markets to serve that will always warrant some level of service, but they can no longer depend on the drive traffic from the larger cities who were fleeing previously high fares.

I live almost the exact same amounts of time as bigred from the respective airports. DAY is my preferred airport, yet I find much more of my flying being done out of CVG and CMH. It’s not just the fares, it is the destinations too. Recently flew to places like PHX, RSW, and the Bay Area which just aren’t available nonstop out of DAY. If anything the situation has completely reversed where DAY is the one leaking to CVG.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1537
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:34 am

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
Cvgspotter15 wrote:
CMHtraveler wrote:
From the weekly OAG thread;

This must be a misfile right? They aren’t trimming the route down to almost nothing before it even begins, are they? I don’t recall any mention of the service being anything other than daily.


Some (at least in my experience with CVG) times the OAG threads only go partly into the month (hence the low daily percentage if its only filed to say January 15th). I would not worry about a cut like that this early in my opinion.


enilria also said there were many misfiles with this update.

CMH-SLC goes away January 6 and returns March 2 on delta.com
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
CMHtraveler
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:39 am

cledaybuck wrote:
CMH-SLC goes away January 6 and returns March 2 on delta.com


Interesting. I wonder what that is about? I know January is slow but wouldn’t you want to wait until you see what bookings are like? They don’t even start the route until late June and no one, let alone the coveted business pax, is booking domestic flights for January 2020 right now. Aircraft availability shouldn’t be a problem in the dead of winter, maybe it will be seasonal after all? If so, that’s a change from when it was announced.
 
flyCMH
Posts: 2273
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 1999 12:15 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:44 pm

CMHtraveler wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
CMH-SLC goes away January 6 and returns March 2 on delta.com


Interesting. I wonder what that is about? I know January is slow but wouldn’t you want to wait until you see what bookings are like? They don’t even start the route until late June and no one, let alone the coveted business pax, is booking domestic flights for January 2020 right now. Aircraft availability shouldn’t be a problem in the dead of winter, maybe it will be seasonal after all? If so, that’s a change from when it was announced.


The seasonal pull-down is consistent with what Delta has done in previous years during the slower winter months after the holidays. That being said, I am somewhat surprised SLC would be cut, given that the ski/snowboard season is in full swing during this time. Hopefully it is indeed a partial filing and the route will repopulate in all booking engines, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1202
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:38 pm

Exact same thing happened in CLE. Without any history, the route was temporarily suspended last winter. Doubt it’s a filing mistake.

Pit was not suspended last winter. I did some dummy bookings and there were some empty planes flying. Guess ski season only goes so far. Likely nothing personal against CMH.
 
flyinryan99
Posts: 1494
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:54 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:49 pm

flyCMH wrote:
CMHtraveler wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
CMH-SLC goes away January 6 and returns March 2 on delta.com


Interesting. I wonder what that is about? I know January is slow but wouldn’t you want to wait until you see what bookings are like? They don’t even start the route until late June and no one, let alone the coveted business pax, is booking domestic flights for January 2020 right now. Aircraft availability shouldn’t be a problem in the dead of winter, maybe it will be seasonal after all? If so, that’s a change from when it was announced.


The seasonal pull-down is consistent with what Delta has done in previous years during the slower winter months after the holidays. That being said, I am somewhat surprised SLC would be cut, given that the ski/snowboard season is in full swing during this time. Hopefully it is indeed a partial filing and the route will repopulate in all booking engines, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

This past 1st quarter was much slower than anticipated and it seemed flights were more empty than normal for the first couple of months of the year...I'm surprised it's gone for February too...would have thought coming back around President's Day since traffic really picks up that weekend. I wouldn't read too much into it though. Just cautious forecasting this far out, maybe if bookings are stronger than forecasted, can always add capacity back.
 
DeltaRules
Topic Author
Posts: 4967
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:33 pm

Envoy is advertising job openings for what appears to be both above and below the wing at CMH. Does AA mainline still do handling at CMH and is this affecting that?

https://www.envoyair.com/events/columbu ... iHRpB9V2s8
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
flyCMH
Posts: 2273
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 1999 12:15 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:30 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
Envoy is advertising job openings for what appears to be both above and below the wing at CMH. Does AA mainline still do handling at CMH and is this affecting that?

https://www.envoyair.com/events/columbu ... iHRpB9V2s8


Interesting. US/AA outsourced their ramp services several years ago to JetStream Ground Services. So it appears the jobs are coming back in-house...somewhat. The only customer service job listed is for Baggage Service, which has always been mainline US/AA. Not sure if only that position is being outsourced, or if it will be a liaison for the AA agents that currently work the position. I have several friends that work CS for AA in CMH; I'll have to ask.
 
RAM787
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:00 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:24 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
Envoy is advertising job openings for what appears to be both above and below the wing at CMH. Does AA mainline still do handling at CMH and is this affecting that?

https://www.envoyair.com/events/columbu ... iHRpB9V2s8


AA's ramp has been outsourced since 2008. First by American Eagle/Envoy, then Jetstream, then a company called GAT which lasted less than a year as Envoy is coming back. These companies handle the baggage service office as well per the Customer Service Contract which allows outsourcing baggage service.
It's nice to see it's coming back in-house... kinda.
 
atbPy
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:48 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:41 am

Anyone else excited about the upcoming SFO-CMH routes? I will be flying to/from SFO a week before the routes start but should be making at least two more trips out there during the summer and hope to cut down on my travel time. The flights don't look very full yet, but most business travelers aren't booking this far out. I am switching my travel back to UA so I hope to see more directs out of them. The only remaining hub would be LAX for UA.
 
CMHtraveler
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:59 pm

atbPy wrote:
Anyone else excited about the upcoming SFO-CMH routes? I will be flying to/from SFO a week before the routes start but should be making at least two more trips out there during the summer and hope to cut down on my travel time. The flights don't look very full yet, but most business travelers aren't booking this far out. I am switching my travel back to UA so I hope to see more directs out of them. The only remaining hub would be LAX for UA.


Unfortunately no trips to SFO currently planned, but I’m thrilled that dot is finally on the CMH route map. As DeltaRules mentioned, the flight was announced as a 319 and has been upguaged to a 320 already. Too early to worry about bookings, but that’s a great sign! I predict that this route will be quite successful for UA, and a possible candidate for more frequencies and/or upguages in the future. The question is, can WN simultaneously maintain seasonal OAK?

As for LAX, with AA’s surprise add of a second daily frequency (which anecdotally was full when I flew it), and DL sticking with it’s redeye, I doubt a 4th UA frequency is in the cards. Having said that, no one saw 3x daily coming either!
 
Johnson622
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:28 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:33 pm

New poster here. Was trying to book the new DL CMH-SLC nonstop for a ski trip in February. Checked the whole month of January and February and no sign of the new service. Really want to utilize a new flight destination from CMH. Thanks in advance!!
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4158
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:49 pm

Johnson622 wrote:
New poster here. Was trying to book the new DL CMH-SLC nonstop for a ski trip in February. Checked the whole month of January and February and no sign of the new service. Really want to utilize a new flight destination from CMH. Thanks in advance!!


It was recently dropped from Jan-Feb,

Despite Ski traffic, contrary to what many people think, travel through and to SLC is slowest from Dec-Feb.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
jplatts
Posts: 2783
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:58 pm

CMHtraveler wrote:
atbPy wrote:
Anyone else excited about the upcoming SFO-CMH routes? I will be flying to/from SFO a week before the routes start but should be making at least two more trips out there during the summer and hope to cut down on my travel time. The flights don't look very full yet, but most business travelers aren't booking this far out. I am switching my travel back to UA so I hope to see more directs out of them. The only remaining hub would be LAX for UA.


As for LAX, with AA’s surprise add of a second daily frequency (which anecdotally was full when I flew it), and DL sticking with it’s redeye, I doubt a 4th UA frequency is in the cards. Having said that, no one saw 3x daily coming either!


CMH can probably support nonstop service to LAX on WN on at least a seasonal basis since (a) CMH doesn't currently have nonstop service to LAX on any LCC's or ULCC's whereas nearby markets such as CVG, CLE, DTW, IND, and PIT all have nonstop service to LAX on at least one LCC on at least a seasonal basis and (b) WN is bigger at CMH than at CVG, CLE, DTW, IND, or PIT.

The lack of CMH-AUS and CMH-SAN nonstop service are two of the biggest holes in the CMH market, and WN could add daily nonstop service to AUS and SAN out of CMH on at least a seasonal basis.
 
atbPy
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:48 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:39 pm

jplatts wrote:
CMH can probably support nonstop service to LAX on WN on at least a seasonal basis since (a) CMH doesn't currently have nonstop service to LAX on any LCC's or ULCC's whereas nearby markets such as CVG, CLE, DTW, IND, and PIT all have nonstop service to LAX on at least one LCC on at least a seasonal basis and (b) WN is bigger at CMH than at CVG, CLE, DTW, IND, or PIT.

The lack of CMH-AUS and CMH-SAN nonstop service are two of the biggest holes in the CMH market, and WN could add daily nonstop service to AUS and SAN out of CMH on at least a seasonal basis.


Would be nice to get a few more options to the west coast direct. I don't typically fly Southwest, but maybe it will bring others to the market.
 
Fargo
Posts: 810
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:00 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:39 pm

What is going on with the CVG master plan? There has been nothing new posted on the website in quite a while, is something going on?
 
DeltaRules
Topic Author
Posts: 4967
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:21 pm

CMHtraveler wrote:
atbPy wrote:
Anyone else excited about the upcoming SFO-CMH routes? I will be flying to/from SFO a week before the routes start but should be making at least two more trips out there during the summer and hope to cut down on my travel time. The flights don't look very full yet, but most business travelers aren't booking this far out. I am switching my travel back to UA so I hope to see more directs out of them. The only remaining hub would be LAX for UA.


Unfortunately no trips to SFO currently planned, but I’m thrilled that dot is finally on the CMH route map. As DeltaRules mentioned, the flight was announced as a 319 and has been upguaged to a 320 already. Too early to worry about bookings, but that’s a great sign! I predict that this route will be quite successful for UA, and a possible candidate for more frequencies and/or upguages in the future. The question is, can WN simultaneously maintain seasonal OAK?

As for LAX, with AA’s surprise add of a second daily frequency (which anecdotally was full when I flew it), and DL sticking with it’s redeye, I doubt a 4th UA frequency is in the cards. Having said that, no one saw 3x daily coming either!


I agree UA probably won't add LAX, but I'm glad they finally looked into a West Coast connection finally through SFO and I'll take that plus 3x daily LAX on others seven days a week.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
User avatar
Pudelhund
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:06 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:00 am

DeltaRules wrote:
CMHtraveler wrote:
atbPy wrote:
Anyone else excited about the upcoming SFO-CMH routes? I will be flying to/from SFO a week before the routes start but should be making at least two more trips out there during the summer and hope to cut down on my travel time. The flights don't look very full yet, but most business travelers aren't booking this far out. I am switching my travel back to UA so I hope to see more directs out of them. The only remaining hub would be LAX for UA.


Unfortunately no trips to SFO currently planned, but I’m thrilled that dot is finally on the CMH route map. As DeltaRules mentioned, the flight was announced as a 319 and has been upguaged to a 320 already. Too early to worry about bookings, but that’s a great sign! I predict that this route will be quite successful for UA, and a possible candidate for more frequencies and/or upguages in the future. The question is, can WN simultaneously maintain seasonal OAK?

As for LAX, with AA’s surprise add of a second daily frequency (which anecdotally was full when I flew it), and DL sticking with it’s redeye, I doubt a 4th UA frequency is in the cards. Having said that, no one saw 3x daily coming either!


I agree UA probably won't add LAX, but I'm glad they finally looked into a West Coast connection finally through SFO and I'll take that plus 3x daily LAX on others seven days a week.


I have been on the LAX-CMH Delta redeye four times in the last year or so and every time it was a full flight. I think UA could be successful with their own daily frequency, but it is definitely a riskier and lower priority frequency than other pairs they could open up. If they ever did LAX, I would probably switch from Delta since the SFO and LAX nonstops are very valuable to me.
 
N292UX
Posts: 429
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:08 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:11 pm

Who all does serve CVG-MSY and CVG-SAN right now? IIRC, G4 does serve CVG-MSY less than daily, but does anyone else? Does F9 have any seasonal flights for CVG-MSY at all? Or is G4 the only one? As for CVG-SAN, I believe F9 is the only one right now. Is that one a less than daily seasonal one, too?
 
Delta28L
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:00 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:15 pm

Yes F9 does the SAN route since Allegiant doesn’t do any east coast flights to and from SAN as of now.
 
jplatts
Posts: 2783
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:33 pm

N292UX wrote:
Who all does serve CVG-MSY and CVG-SAN right now? IIRC, G4 does serve CVG-MSY less than daily, but does anyone else? Does F9 have any seasonal flights for CVG-MSY at all? Or is G4 the only one? As for CVG-SAN, I believe F9 is the only one right now. Is that one a less than daily seasonal one, too?


G4 is currently the only airline serving MSY nonstop from CVG, but CVG-MSY nonstop service could be added by F9 or WN.
 
jplatts
Posts: 2783
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:21 pm

While G4 doesn't currently serve DFW, IAH, or HOU, there is a post in the Allegiant Discussion thread (which can be found at https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411883&start=100#p21299579) that said that G4 is seeking to add nonstop international flights to Mexico out of DFW and Houston if G4 gets the necessary government approvals.

If G4 does add service to DFW and Houston, G4 could add nonstop service to DFW and Houston out of CVG. G4 could also add some nonstop international routes out of CVG.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2567
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:43 pm

March numbers are finally in for CVG: http://www.cvgairport.com/docs/default- ... -march.pdf

Stronger numbers than I expected, for sure. March was up 5.88%. YTD numbers are up 4.84%
 
ILNFlyer
Posts: 391
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:34 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:48 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
bigred10k wrote:
marvinanderson1 wrote:
Yes funnel all Ohio traffic into three inadequate airports , with one airport being in Kentucky. I could understand if you were talking ORD, ATL,LAX, or JFK. But we are talking CLE, CMH, and CVG, three mid- size airports that go up and down themselves. CAK and DAY serve important areas of their own and they will find their niche. There are several new LCC carriers coming into existence soon that will be focused on secondary airports, and both CAK and DAY have a good record of being relevant before, hopefully they will again.


Exactly. Competition is a good thing. Before Delta de-hubbed at CVG, prices there were astronomical (second only to ANC). DAY filled in the void quite nicely during that time, particularly for leisure travelers.

Living in SW Ohio, I've always preferred flying out of DAY (35 minutes away) over CVG (65 minutes away) or CMH (75 minutes away). Then there is the issue of getting to CVG (e.g., the nearly weekly occurrence of a car or truck stalled on the I-71/75 "Brent Spence" bridge) and the time it takes to get to the gates.

Also, I don't understand the love for the 3x3 seating config on a main line 737 or A320. So what, its a bigger plane (and I will never fly Frontier again given its limited seat pitch). But if I am stuck in economy, I'd rather be on a 2x2 config (CRJ) or a 2x3 config (MD-80/90). And forget about upgrading as a DL silver or gold out of CVG with all of the DL fanatics there. Switched to AA shortly after the DL/NW merger and it has worked out quite nicely. Plus I can throw my support to the only Ohio based airline (PSA).

Sorry, might have made sense for you, but for the large population centers CMH, CLE and CVG actually serve it really wasn't a great experience having to haul yourself an hour's drive plus away to catch a flight at a decent fare from DAY/CAK/IND/SDF. Actually having competitive low fares at CVG, CMH and CLE HAS been brought about by the consumer choice and competition you're talking about thankfully. Now all of this doesn't mean DAY and CAK are irrelevant...they do have their own local markets to serve that will always warrant some level of service, but they can no longer depend on the drive traffic from the larger cities who were fleeing previously high fares.


The only way DAY is going to get competitive again with CVG is to have lower fares, as it's previous history proves. The only way that's going to happen is with a ULCC presence, and most of that has appeared at CVG and CMH instead.I fear DAY may turn into CRJ land. I'm in the process of booking a flight somewhere and the fares out of CVG are $100 lower round trip on a major carrier.
 
Springs1816
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:11 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:11 am

flyguy89 wrote:
March numbers are finally in for CVG: http://www.cvgairport.com/docs/default- ... -march.pdf

Stronger numbers than I expected, for sure. March was up 5.88%. YTD numbers are up 4.84%


So what's driving this? Just incremental increases by carriers on existing routes? Doesn't seem like much new has been added in awhile. Still would like to see a few more adds on different routes and/or carriers but overall this is positive. Hope the strong numbers continue.
 
Yossarian22
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:25 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:36 am

ILNFlyer wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
bigred10k wrote:

Exactly. Competition is a good thing. Before Delta de-hubbed at CVG, prices there were astronomical (second only to ANC). DAY filled in the void quite nicely during that time, particularly for leisure travelers.

Living in SW Ohio, I've always preferred flying out of DAY (35 minutes away) over CVG (65 minutes away) or CMH (75 minutes away). Then there is the issue of getting to CVG (e.g., the nearly weekly occurrence of a car or truck stalled on the I-71/75 "Brent Spence" bridge) and the time it takes to get to the gates.

Also, I don't understand the love for the 3x3 seating config on a main line 737 or A320. So what, its a bigger plane (and I will never fly Frontier again given its limited seat pitch). But if I am stuck in economy, I'd rather be on a 2x2 config (CRJ) or a 2x3 config (MD-80/90). And forget about upgrading as a DL silver or gold out of CVG with all of the DL fanatics there. Switched to AA shortly after the DL/NW merger and it has worked out quite nicely. Plus I can throw my support to the only Ohio based airline (PSA).

Sorry, might have made sense for you, but for the large population centers CMH, CLE and CVG actually serve it really wasn't a great experience having to haul yourself an hour's drive plus away to catch a flight at a decent fare from DAY/CAK/IND/SDF. Actually having competitive low fares at CVG, CMH and CLE HAS been brought about by the consumer choice and competition you're talking about thankfully. Now all of this doesn't mean DAY and CAK are irrelevant...they do have their own local markets to serve that will always warrant some level of service, but they can no longer depend on the drive traffic from the larger cities who were fleeing previously high fares.


The only way DAY is going to get competitive again with CVG is to have lower fares, as it's previous history proves. The only way that's going to happen is with a ULCC presence, and most of that has appeared at CVG and CMH instead.I fear DAY may turn into CRJ land. I'm in the process of booking a flight somewhere and the fares out of CVG are $100 lower round trip on a major carrier.

In many ways, that is simply the market becoming rational.

10 years ago, when CVG was dominated by Delta (even though by 2009 Delta had already largely drawn the the hub), CVG was basically just a spoke for UA, AA, CO, and US to operate flights to their regional hubs. Nobody wanted to compete with Delta. Airlines that wanted a piece of the Cincinnati market, such as Frontier and AirTran operated out of DAY, where they wouldn’t be run out of the market.

A good example of that is 20 years ago, Vanguard tried operating cheap flights from CVG to MDW, and Delta offered lose leading fares with extra SkyMiles incentives until Vanguard was run out of the market.

Dayton is a small market, it is a small city with a weak economy, that shares much of its catchment area with CMH and CVG. I live overseas, and my first year, when I flew to see my family in Cincinnati, I flew to DAY. It was cheaper on UA. Those days are basically over now, it is almost always cheaper to fly to CVG, or the cost is the same, so why fly to an airport that is an extra 20/30 minute drive from my parents home?
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2567
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2019

Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:51 am

Springs1816 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
March numbers are finally in for CVG: http://www.cvgairport.com/docs/default- ... -march.pdf

Stronger numbers than I expected, for sure. March was up 5.88%. YTD numbers are up 4.84%


So what's driving this? Just incremental increases by carriers on existing routes? Doesn't seem like much new has been added in awhile. Still would like to see a few more adds on different routes and/or carriers but overall this is positive. Hope the strong numbers continue.

There has been some incremental capacity adds here and there between all the carriers, but mostly I think it's just contued market stimulation and growth with the current low fare environment.
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