777Mech
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Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:59 am

FSDan wrote:
hkcanadaexpat wrote:
Upgrades from narrowbody fleet
9/23: ATL-MCO; ATL-JFK; MCO-ATL-SLC-HNL
9/24: MCO-ATL; HNL-SLC-ATL-FLL-ATL
9/25: ATL-SLC-HNL
9/26: JFK-ATL; HNL-SLC-ATL-FLL-ATL-MCO; LAS-ATL; JFK-ATL; ATL-MSP
9/27: MCO-ATL-SLC-HNL
9/28: ATL-LAX; LAX-ATL; ATL-DTW-ATL; HNL-SLC-ATL-TPA-ATL
9/29: JFK-DTW; DTW-JFK; ATL-SLC-HNL; JFK-ATL


With ATL-SLC-HNL-SLC-ATL getting upgauged so regularly (looks like basically every other day), it's surprising DL doesn't find a way to more permanently upgauge this route.


I wonder if they're taking payload hits so bad they'd have to kick off passengers.
 
TW870
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Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:21 pm

Sorry if this duplicates things in other threads. But what does the latest tariff issue mean for the DL 339 and 359 deliveries? Will they get an additional 10% tariff - or is that not finalized yet? The 14 359s from LATAM will re-shape DL's widebody plans over the next five years, as they will allow the 763ERs to come off of high yield routes more quickly. Just trying to figure out how tariff policy is going to influence the economics of those plans.
 
NateGreat
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Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:11 am

So, when will N831MH leave CAN? It was stated here on the thread that it was supposed to be 10/3, but there are no upcoming flights for it on the FlightAware app.
 
Scotron12
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Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:01 am

TW870 wrote:
Sorry if this duplicates things in other threads. But what does the latest tariff issue mean for the DL 339 and 359 deliveries? Will they get an additional 10% tariff - or is that not finalized yet? The 14 359s from LATAM will re-shape DL's widebody plans over the next five years, as they will allow the 763ERs to come off of high yield routes more quickly. Just trying to figure out how tariff policy is going to influence the economics of those plans.


Is it already decided that LATAMs A350s are A359s?? The orders they have are for the larger A350-1000s, unless DL have an agreement with Airbus to swap??
 
flyinghippo
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DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:08 pm

Now that Delta's plan to acquire LA's A350s (14 total) has been made clear. Let's discuss...

1 - Delta will take 4 existing LA A359s. I assume Delta will refit those frames with Delta products since LA's A359's seating is pretty drastically different from DL's, especially in the business class cabin.
2 - Will Delta take A350-1000? or convert to A359?
3 - Assuming Delta will convert A350-1000s to A359 and take all 14, what routes will DL use them for? (Replace some 777s like LAX-SYD? Put some on premium TATL routes JFK-AMS/CDG?)
4 - Or will DL convert them to A339s again?

These might have been discussed in various topics, but might be a worthwhile topic to merit its own thread.
 
LDRA
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:18 pm

What weight variant LA ordered?
 
Packson
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:20 pm

flyinghippo wrote:
Now that Delta's plan to acquire LA's A350s (14 total) has been made clear. Let's discuss...

1 - Delta will take 4 existing LA A359s. I assume Delta will refit those frames with Delta products since LA's A359's seating is pretty drastically different from DL's, especially in the business class cabin.
2 - Will Delta take A350-1000? or convert to A359?
3 - Assuming Delta will convert A350-1000s to A359 and take all 14, what routes will DL use them for? (Replace some 777s like LAX-SYD? Put some on premium TATL routes JFK-AMS/CDG?)
4 - Or will DL convert them to A339s again?

These might have been discussed in various topics, but might be a worthwhile topic to merit its own thread.


You wouldn't see the 4 Latam birds flying until 2021 as they will be going through modification to Delta's standard. The 777 fleet is likely to be the loser longterm as the company has significant interest in the 787-9/10. I believe there will be clarity on this subject in the upcoming months.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:36 pm

Packson wrote:
flyinghippo wrote:
Now that Delta's plan to acquire LA's A350s (14 total) has been made clear. Let's discuss...

1 - Delta will take 4 existing LA A359s. I assume Delta will refit those frames with Delta products since LA's A359's seating is pretty drastically different from DL's, especially in the business class cabin.
2 - Will Delta take A350-1000? or convert to A359?
3 - Assuming Delta will convert A350-1000s to A359 and take all 14, what routes will DL use them for? (Replace some 777s like LAX-SYD? Put some on premium TATL routes JFK-AMS/CDG?)
4 - Or will DL convert them to A339s again?

These might have been discussed in various topics, but might be a worthwhile topic to merit its own thread.


You wouldn't see the 4 Latam birds flying until 2021 as they will be going through modification to Delta's standard. The 777 fleet is likely to be the loser longterm as the company has significant interest in the 787-9/10. I believe there will be clarity on this subject in the upcoming months.


Who at Delta has expressed any interest in the 787? I thought it lost to the A330neo?
 
TropicalSky
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:38 pm

Do you have info regarding this strong interest that DAL has in the B787-9&10? ..... most would say they have no interest in BOEING widebody with the exception of the B797/NMA

Packson wrote:
flyinghippo wrote:
Now that Delta's plan to acquire LA's A350s (14 total) has been made clear. Let's discuss...

1 - Delta will take 4 existing LA A359s. I assume Delta will refit those frames with Delta products since LA's A359's seating is pretty drastically different from DL's, especially in the business class cabin.
2 - Will Delta take A350-1000? or convert to A359?
3 - Assuming Delta will convert A350-1000s to A359 and take all 14, what routes will DL use them for? (Replace some 777s like LAX-SYD? Put some on premium TATL routes JFK-AMS/CDG?)
4 - Or will DL convert them to A339s again?

These might have been discussed in various topics, but might be a worthwhile topic to merit its own thread.


You wouldn't see the 4 Latam birds flying until 2021 as they will be going through modification to Delta's standard. The 777 fleet is likely to be the loser longterm as the company has significant interest in the 787-9/10. I believe there will be clarity on this subject in the upcoming months.
 
Packson
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:43 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Packson wrote:
flyinghippo wrote:
Now that Delta's plan to acquire LA's A350s (14 total) has been made clear. Let's discuss...

1 - Delta will take 4 existing LA A359s. I assume Delta will refit those frames with Delta products since LA's A359's seating is pretty drastically different from DL's, especially in the business class cabin.
2 - Will Delta take A350-1000? or convert to A359?
3 - Assuming Delta will convert A350-1000s to A359 and take all 14, what routes will DL use them for? (Replace some 777s like LAX-SYD? Put some on premium TATL routes JFK-AMS/CDG?)
4 - Or will DL convert them to A339s again?

These might have been discussed in various topics, but might be a worthwhile topic to merit its own thread.


You wouldn't see the 4 Latam birds flying until 2021 as they will be going through modification to Delta's standard. The 777 fleet is likely to be the loser longterm as the company has significant interest in the 787-9/10. I believe there will be clarity on this subject in the upcoming months.


Who at Delta has expressed any interest in the 787? I thought it lost to the A330neo?


People who would be in the know. No names on a public form.

Boeing currently has their hands full trying to get the max up and going. At some point once that moves forward I think you will see some traction on the issue (dark horse may include some max purchases)
Last edited by Packson on Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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TransWorldOne
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:52 pm

I have a hard time seeing what role the 787-9/10 would have in DL's fleet that a 339 or 359 couldn't fill.
 
RalXWB
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:52 pm

Have LATAMs 350s enough range for US transcon? #sarcasmoff
 
BNAMealer
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:52 pm

Packson wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Packson wrote:

You wouldn't see the 4 Latam birds flying until 2021 as they will be going through modification to Delta's standard. The 777 fleet is likely to be the loser longterm as the company has significant interest in the 787-9/10. I believe there will be clarity on this subject in the upcoming months.


Who at Delta has expressed any interest in the 787? I thought it lost to the A330neo?


People who would be in the know. No names on a public form.


If DL wanted the 787, they would've ordered it already. It would appear they've put all of their large widebody eggs in the A350/330neo basket going forward.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:55 pm

TransWorldOne wrote:
I have a hard time seeing what role the 787-9/10 would have in DL's fleet that a 339 or 359 couldn't fill.


Frankly, the 787-9 would have been a better plane for their Asia flights from their western hubs (LAX, SEA, SLC), but that ship has sailed.

The only Boeing aircraft DL might order is the 797 for the foreseeable future.
 
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TransWorldOne
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:04 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
TransWorldOne wrote:
I have a hard time seeing what role the 787-9/10 would have in DL's fleet that a 339 or 359 couldn't fill.


Frankly, the 787-9 would have been a better plane for their Asia flights from their western hubs (LAX, SEA, SLC), but that ship has sailed.

The only Boeing aircraft DL might order is the 797 for the foreseeable future.


Agreed. But as you said, that ship has sailed. The 789 is a wonderful aircraft for ultra long haul missions but, with few exceptions, DL shies away from those.
 
airzona11
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:09 pm

The A350/A330/787/777 all compliment just as much as the compete, DL is such a large airline, like other large airlines, it is not that much of a stretch to see them adding 787s. However, the A350s are nice near term add.
 
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admanager
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:13 pm

5. What happens as a result of the new US tariff of 10% on Airbus aircraft assembled in Europe?
https://onemileatatime.com/us-impose-tariffs-airbus/
Will the used LATAM 350's be subject to tariffs? If the cost of purchasing an Airbus aircraft goes up 10% I believe all bets are off.
 
Packson
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:13 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
Packson wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Who at Delta has expressed any interest in the 787? I thought it lost to the A330neo?


People who would be in the know. No names on a public form.


If DL wanted the 787, they would've ordered it already. It would appear they've put all of their large widebody eggs in the A350/330neo basket going forward.


You really think Delta is going to put all their widebody orders into 2 airframes? There are 56 767's and 10 777's (not including the 8 LR's) Stay tuned. The 330-900 order's dont cover all the aircraft needs. Wouldn't it be a boost of confidence if Delta put their faith in a Boeing product after their recent troubles. Delta is always looking for opportunistic buys.

Another tidbit...Some of Delta's 321 NEO's deliveries are delayed they sure could use a few narrow body aircraft...just my opinion.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:31 pm

Packson wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
Packson wrote:

People who would be in the know. No names on a public form.


If DL wanted the 787, they would've ordered it already. It would appear they've put all of their large widebody eggs in the A350/330neo basket going forward.


You really think Delta is going to put all their widebody orders into 2 airframes? There are 56 767's and 10 777's (not including the 8 LR's) Stay tuned. The 330-900 order's dont cover all the aircraft needs. Wouldn't it be a boost of confidence if Delta put their faith in a Boeing product after their recent troubles. Delta is always looking for opportunistic buys.

Another tidbit...Some of Delta's 321 NEO's deliveries are delayed they sure could use a few narrow body aircraft...just my opinion.


Don't get me wrong, DL should absolutely order the 787, the fact that they haven't when pretty much every other major airline has (including all of their JV partners) is a pretty big head scratcher. I just don't see it happening. I would love to be wrong.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:33 pm

I think DL has fleet needs more urgent than replacing eight 777ERs presently 17-21 years old. They are still economically viable - as much as the eleven 332s. Before DL agreed to take the 4+10 A350s in the LATAM deal I could imagine a (75? frame) 787 deal with Boeing responsible for remarketing DL's current 13 A350s. I can't see it today. DL hasn't recently placed much value in fleet simplification.
 
ibthebigd
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:40 pm

My worry is what will replace the 767-300. The 797 will be the ideal aircraft for IND-CDG. I just wish Delta had some 787-8 to replace the 767

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:01 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Packson wrote:
The company has significant interest in the 787-9/10. I believe there will be clarity on this subject in the upcoming months.

Who at Delta has expressed any interest in the 787? I thought it lost to the A330neo?

I'll back up (to the extent that an amateur's word matters) what Packson is saying:
    I know one or two DL folk in the know who are, and have long since, been saying the same thing, with a particular interest in the B78X's comparatively enormous A-segment space.... and Boeing is *VERY* hungry for this potential order.


Posted previously on this issue here:
viewtopic.php?t=1426309#p21491107


And while of course nothing whatsoever is currently set in stone... for all those reflexively parroting the "that ship has sailed!" commentary, I'd ask: based on WHAT?

DL has all the money in the world, and has never been afraid to optimize a new/additional fleet type with a given mission profile, even if it's similar to extant eqp within the fleet.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:09 pm

Back to the A350 topic - I'll assert that you can't plan the impact of just 14 A350s to arrive over a 6-year period without knowing the 763 retirement schedule.
 
marcogr12
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:09 pm

DL could order the A351 to replace the 777s if need be and take more A333s or new A339s to replace their 767s
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
tjerome
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Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:39 pm

Any recent info on how many 777s and 764s have completed their respective cabin mods?
 
BNAMealer
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:37 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Packson wrote:
The company has significant interest in the 787-9/10. I believe there will be clarity on this subject in the upcoming months.

Who at Delta has expressed any interest in the 787? I thought it lost to the A330neo?

I'll back up (to the extent that an amateur's word matters) what Packson is saying:
    I know one or two DL folk in the know who are, and have long since, been saying the same thing, with a particular interest in the B78X's comparatively enormous A-segment space.... and Boeing is *VERY* hungry for this potential order.


Posted previously on this issue here:
viewtopic.php?t=1426309#p21491107


And while of course nothing whatsoever is currently set in stone... for all those reflexively parroting the "that ship has sailed!" commentary, I'd ask: based on WHAT?

DL has all the money in the world, and has never been afraid to optimize a new/additional fleet type with a given mission profile, even if it's similar to extant eqp within the fleet.


Has anything changed since the acquisition of LATAM’s A350 order?

I agree the 787-10 would be great with DL, but I’m taking an I’ll believe it when I see it approach with anything DL and Boeing for the foreseeable future.
 
NateGreat
Posts: 455
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:48 pm

flyinghippo wrote:
Now that Delta's plan to acquire LA's A350s (14 total) has been made clear. Let's discuss...

1 - Delta will take 4 existing LA A359s. I assume Delta will refit those frames with Delta products since LA's A359's seating is pretty drastically different from DL's, especially in the business class cabin.
2 - Will Delta take A350-1000? or convert to A359?
3 - Assuming Delta will convert A350-1000s to A359 and take all 14, what routes will DL use them for? (Replace some 777s like LAX-SYD? Put some on premium TATL routes JFK-AMS/CDG?)
4 - Or will DL convert them to A339s again?

These might have been discussed in various topics, but might be a worthwhile topic to merit its own thread.

I don’t see them converting the LATAM A350s to A339s. The 10 A359s that we’re deferred until 2025-2026, maybe. Delta seems to be set on accepting those A350s. Yes, the 10 remaining Delta A359s were deferred and an additional 10 A339s were ordered, but there has been no official word that those 10 A359s would be swapped out for A339s.
 
jumbojet
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:54 pm

Packson wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
Packson wrote:

People who would be in the know. No names on a public form.


If DL wanted the 787, they would've ordered it already. It would appear they've put all of their large widebody eggs in the A350/330neo basket going forward.


You really think Delta is going to put all their widebody orders into 2 airframes? There are 56 767's and 10 777's (not including the 8 LR's) Stay tuned. The 330-900 order's dont cover all the aircraft needs. Wouldn't it be a boost of confidence if Delta put their faith in a Boeing product after their recent troubles. Delta is always looking for opportunistic buys.

Another tidbit...Some of Delta's 321 NEO's deliveries are delayed they sure could use a few narrow body aircraft...just my opinion.


Delta wants the 797 to replace the bulk of the 767/757 fleet. Ed Bastian has said that much.

Also, Delta has said they will be taking 2 of LATAMs 359's towards the end of 2020.

Lastly, with the 797 supposed to be replacing the 767's, I just dont see DL getting any 787's. They dont need them at this point, especially with all the 350's and 339's still on order
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:43 am

Delta is going to have to have a Plan B in case 797s are delayed (or never launch). IMHO they'll have orders or options on enough 321LR/XLR/MAX 10 to replace the 757s to be retired before the end of 2026 - incremental to the aircraft to replace the MD-88/MD-90/A320s that get retired before then, and 4% domestic growth.
 
Packson
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:48 am

jumbojet wrote:
Packson wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

If DL wanted the 787, they would've ordered it already. It would appear they've put all of their large widebody eggs in the A350/330neo basket going forward.


You really think Delta is going to put all their widebody orders into 2 airframes? There are 56 767's and 10 777's (not including the 8 LR's) Stay tuned. The 330-900 order's dont cover all the aircraft needs. Wouldn't it be a boost of confidence if Delta put their faith in a Boeing product after their recent troubles. Delta is always looking for opportunistic buys.

Another tidbit...Some of Delta's 321 NEO's deliveries are delayed they sure could use a few narrow body aircraft...just my opinion.


Delta wants the 797 to replace the bulk of the 767/757 fleet. Ed Bastian has said that much.

Also, Delta has said they will be taking 2 of LATAMs 359's towards the end of 2020.

Lastly, with the 797 supposed to be replacing the 767's, I just dont see DL getting any 787's. They dont need them at this point, especially with all the 350's and 339's still on order


I'm well aware of what Ed has said. At this point the 797 IF built, wont be ready until 2025 or later. You won't see the Latam birds in service until 2021 because of being rebranded. As for the latter we shall see.
 
hkcanadaexpat
Posts: 4056
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:33 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:06 am

In this weekend's latest timetable, DL continued to tinker with the S20 schedule and aircraft allocation.
> The pre-DS 764 has been removed from the schedule
> The 2020 359 deliveries have been allocated to routes
> The 2020 339 deliveries have yet to be allocated to routes (SEA-PEK still has 76T placeholder)
> No sign yet of 2019/20 76L retirements

Changes reflected in this weekend's update:
ATL-AMS (3pm) 333->359
ATL-BCN 333->332
ATL-EZE 764->764(DS)
ATL-LIM 76Z->76T
ATL-MUC 764->76Z
ATL-ZRH 764->764(DS)
BOS-DUB 76Z->333
DTW-AMS (10pm) 333->359
DTW-CDG (4pm) 333->76Z
DTW-CDG (6pm) 333->76Z
DTW-FCO 76Z->333
DTW-LHR (6pm) 332->764DS
DTW-LHR (10pm) 332->764DS
DTW-MUC 764->332
JFK-GRU 764->764(DS)
JFK-TXL 76Z->76L
JFK-VCE 76Z->76L
MSP-AMS (5pm) 333->359
MSP-ICN 772->359
MSP-LHR 332->764DS
PDX-AMS 333->332
PDX-LHR 332->764DS
SEA-AMS 76Z->339

Definitely expect more changes
 
cessna2
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:43 am

BNAMealer wrote:
TransWorldOne wrote:
I have a hard time seeing what role the 787-9/10 would have in DL's fleet that a 339 or 359 couldn't fill.


Frankly, the 787-9 would have been a better plane for their Asia flights from their western hubs (LAX, SEA, SLC), but that ship has sailed.

The only Boeing aircraft DL might order is the 797 for the foreseeable future.

The ship has not sailed. In fact Ed himself has said himself he sees the 787 in the fleet at some point. Most likely the 78X in my opinion. Next couple of years will be interesting.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:58 am

People within this forum don't seem to realize that DL now has 57 firm 330/350 commitments, scheduled for delivery within the next seven years. Let's put that into perspective -- collectively, the capacity of the 339 and remaining 350 will be slightly larger than the 763 and 764 currently offers. Think about that, because that's significant given DL is forecasting only 2% annual long-haul growth in the near future.

The same people who were insisting that DL was going to order the 787 because the 350 wasn't performing to expectations... are now insisting that DL is going to order the 787 because 'they can't get widebodies fast enough.' I'd say that 57 widebodies being delivered largely in a six-year period, is close to the fastest pace DL is willing to adsorb them. On paper, once the last plane from these orders is delivered, DL will have 30 B763, B764 and B777A that collectively will average ~25-years-old. Obviously, some aircraft will be retired with longer service times than others, but quite frankly, there's little need for DL to add additional deliveries while these orders play out. And DL chooses to do so, a few extra 339/350 delivery slots (discounted after being cancelled by their original owner) or a few used 330 / 777 seems far more likely than introducing a brand new fleet type (787).

While I agree the 797 is in prime position to win some orders from DL for delivery late next decade, the idea of the 787 joining DL's fleet is just wishful thinking.

jumbojet wrote:
Delta wants the 797 to replace the bulk of the 767/757 fleet. Ed Bastian has said that much.


He never said anything close to that. In response to questions surrounding DL's preference for Airbus in recent orders, he said 'we have 200 757 and 767 up for replacement, and the order is Boeing's to lose - if it builds the plane we want, we'll order it.' It's nothing more than PR. Let's be realistic - the replacement orders for most of the 757 and 767 have already been made; a potential DL order for the 797, as a 767 replacement, will be modest.

cessna2 wrote:
The ship has not sailed. In fact Ed himself has said himself he sees the 787 in the fleet at some point. Most likely the 78X in my opinion. Next couple of years will be interesting.


Please support your assertion that "Ed himself" said he sees a role for the 787 in DL's fleet. And please don't repeat the tired story of 'he said it at an employee event in front of my friend, who told me, and despite thousands of other DL employees hearing it, none are willing to collaborate it.' You keep saying it... for years... doesn't make it true. It's just silly at this point.
 
cessna2
Posts: 380
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Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:49 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
People within this forum don't seem to realize that DL now has 57 firm 330/350 commitments, scheduled for delivery within the next seven years. Let's put that into perspective -- collectively, the capacity of the 339 and remaining 350 will be slightly larger than the 763 and 764 currently offers. Think about that, because that's significant given DL is forecasting only 2% annual long-haul growth in the near future.

The same people who were insisting that DL was going to order the 787 because the 350 wasn't performing to expectations... are now insisting that DL is going to order the 787 because 'they can't get widebodies fast enough.' I'd say that 57 widebodies being delivered largely in a six-year period, is close to the fastest pace DL is willing to adsorb them. On paper, once the last plane from these orders is delivered, DL will have 30 B763, B764 and B777A that collectively will average ~25-years-old. Obviously, some aircraft will be retired with longer service times than others, but quite frankly, there's little need for DL to add additional deliveries while these orders play out. And DL chooses to do so, a few extra 339/350 delivery slots (discounted after being cancelled by their original owner) or a few used 330 / 777 seems far more likely than introducing a brand new fleet type (787).

While I agree the 797 is in prime position to win some orders from DL for delivery late next decade, the idea of the 787 joining DL's fleet is just wishful thinking.

jumbojet wrote:
Delta wants the 797 to replace the bulk of the 767/757 fleet. Ed Bastian has said that much.


He never said anything close to that. In response to questions surrounding DL's preference for Airbus in recent orders, he said 'we have 200 757 and 767 up for replacement, and the order is Boeing's to lose - if it builds the plane we want, we'll order it.' It's nothing more than PR. Let's be realistic - the replacement orders for most of the 757 and 767 have already been made; a potential DL order for the 797, as a 767 replacement, will be modest.

cessna2 wrote:
The ship has not sailed. In fact Ed himself has said himself he sees the 787 in the fleet at some point. Most likely the 78X in my opinion. Next couple of years will be interesting.


Please support your assertion that "Ed himself" said he sees a role for the 787 in DL's fleet. And please don't repeat the tired story of 'he said it at an employee event in front of my friend, who told me, and despite thousands of other DL employees hearing it, none are willing to collaborate it.' You keep saying it... for years... doesn't make it true. It's just silly at this point.

Its in a video from his "Ask Ed Anything." So while you may think it's "Silly", he's on record saying it. When its going to happen is anyone guess at this point. But the 787 is very much still in the running. Specially since DL wants to expand internationally to bring the International and Domestic revenue streams equal to 50/50.
 
NateGreat
Posts: 455
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Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:17 am

hkcanadaexpat wrote:
In this weekend's latest timetable, DL continued to tinker with the S20 schedule and aircraft allocation.
> The pre-DS 764 has been removed from the schedule
> The 2020 359 deliveries have been allocated to routes
> The 2020 339 deliveries have yet to be allocated to routes (SEA-PEK still has 76T placeholder)
> No sign yet of 2019/20 76L retirements

Changes reflected in this weekend's update:
ATL-AMS (3pm) 333->359
ATL-BCN 333->332
ATL-EZE 764->764(DS)
ATL-LIM 76Z->76T
ATL-MUC 764->76Z
ATL-ZRH 764->764(DS)
BOS-DUB 76Z->333
DTW-AMS (10pm) 333->359
DTW-CDG (4pm) 333->76Z
DTW-CDG (6pm) 333->76Z
DTW-FCO 76Z->333
DTW-LHR (6pm) 332->764DS
DTW-LHR (10pm) 332->764DS
DTW-MUC 764->332
JFK-GRU 764->764(DS)
JFK-TXL 76Z->76L
JFK-VCE 76Z->76L
MSP-AMS (5pm) 333->359
MSP-ICN 772->359
MSP-LHR 332->764DS
PDX-AMS 333->332
PDX-LHR 332->764DS
SEA-AMS 76Z->339

Definitely expect more changes

With the A332s exiting LHR routes, I see them moving to other routes. Also, glad to see more TATL A350 routes plus the first TATL A339 route. More Suites to AMS! Hopefully SEA-CDG is the next A339 candidate.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:20 am

cessna2 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
People within this forum don't seem to realize that DL now has 57 firm 330/350 commitments, scheduled for delivery within the next seven years. Let's put that into perspective -- collectively, the capacity of the 339 and remaining 350 will be slightly larger than the 763 and 764 currently offers. Think about that, because that's significant given DL is forecasting only 2% annual long-haul growth in the near future.

The same people who were insisting that DL was going to order the 787 because the 350 wasn't performing to expectations... are now insisting that DL is going to order the 787 because 'they can't get widebodies fast enough.' I'd say that 57 widebodies being delivered largely in a six-year period, is close to the fastest pace DL is willing to adsorb them. On paper, once the last plane from these orders is delivered, DL will have 30 B763, B764 and B777A that collectively will average ~25-years-old. Obviously, some aircraft will be retired with longer service times than others, but quite frankly, there's little need for DL to add additional deliveries while these orders play out. And DL chooses to do so, a few extra 339/350 delivery slots (discounted after being cancelled by their original owner) or a few used 330 / 777 seems far more likely than introducing a brand new fleet type (787).

While I agree the 797 is in prime position to win some orders from DL for delivery late next decade, the idea of the 787 joining DL's fleet is just wishful thinking.

jumbojet wrote:
Delta wants the 797 to replace the bulk of the 767/757 fleet. Ed Bastian has said that much.


He never said anything close to that. In response to questions surrounding DL's preference for Airbus in recent orders, he said 'we have 200 757 and 767 up for replacement, and the order is Boeing's to lose - if it builds the plane we want, we'll order it.' It's nothing more than PR. Let's be realistic - the replacement orders for most of the 757 and 767 have already been made; a potential DL order for the 797, as a 767 replacement, will be modest.

cessna2 wrote:
The ship has not sailed. In fact Ed himself has said himself he sees the 787 in the fleet at some point. Most likely the 78X in my opinion. Next couple of years will be interesting.


Please support your assertion that "Ed himself" said he sees a role for the 787 in DL's fleet. And please don't repeat the tired story of 'he said it at an employee event in front of my friend, who told me, and despite thousands of other DL employees hearing it, none are willing to collaborate it.' You keep saying it... for years... doesn't make it true. It's just silly at this point.

Its in a video from his "Ask Ed Anything." So while you may think it's "Silly", he's on record saying it. When its going to happen is anyone guess at this point. But the 787 is very much still in the running. Specially since DL wants to expand internationally to bring the International and Domestic revenue streams equal to 50/50.


A couple points:
1) You keep referring to the “50/50” revenue stream, but DL has never said such; domestic services account for the lion’s share of its current revenues, and DL has indicated that domestic services will grow at a much faster pace than long-haul in the future. Reality is, investors would sell if DL announced a massive long-haul expansion. Put simply, there’s no facts to your assertion.

2) Have you ever applied for a job and received a correspondence that said ‘while we’re not hiring you now, we will consider you for future opportunities.’ If so, did you interpet this as ‘I got the job’ ?. Ed saying ‘we will continue to consider the 787 for future orders’ does not equate into interest let alone a firm commitment. Ed realizes it’s a sensitive issue, he’s just playing the PR game.
 
NateGreat
Posts: 455
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:02 pm

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:42 am

So, the next A339 route is SEA-AMS (DL144, 5:49 dep, 12:30 arr, 9h41m flight time). They should be able to operate this daily with only 1 frame. What are some other additional A339 routes in 2020? DL167 SEA-TYO is an A359 on that date, so it looks like the NRT A339 will be freed up from Tokyo when the route switches to HND as an A359.
 
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TransWorldOne
Posts: 344
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 12:13 am

Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:04 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
People within this forum don't seem to realize that DL now has 57 firm 330/350 commitments, scheduled for delivery within the next seven years. Let's put that into perspective -- collectively, the capacity of the 339 and remaining 350 will be slightly larger than the 763 and 764 currently offers. Think about that, because that's significant given DL is forecasting only 2% annual long-haul growth in the near future.

The same people who were insisting that DL was going to order the 787 because the 350 wasn't performing to expectations... are now insisting that DL is going to order the 787 because 'they can't get widebodies fast enough.' I'd say that 57 widebodies being delivered largely in a six-year period, is close to the fastest pace DL is willing to adsorb them. On paper, once the last plane from these orders is delivered, DL will have 30 B763, B764 and B777A that collectively will average ~25-years-old. Obviously, some aircraft will be retired with longer service times than others, but quite frankly, there's little need for DL to add additional deliveries while these orders play out. And DL chooses to do so, a few extra 339/350 delivery slots (discounted after being cancelled by their original owner) or a few used 330 / 777 seems far more likely than introducing a brand new fleet type (787).

While I agree the 797 is in prime position to win some orders from DL for delivery late next decade, the idea of the 787 joining DL's fleet is just wishful thinking.



He never said anything close to that. In response to questions surrounding DL's preference for Airbus in recent orders, he said 'we have 200 757 and 767 up for replacement, and the order is Boeing's to lose - if it builds the plane we want, we'll order it.' It's nothing more than PR. Let's be realistic - the replacement orders for most of the 757 and 767 have already been made; a potential DL order for the 797, as a 767 replacement, will be modest.



Please support your assertion that "Ed himself" said he sees a role for the 787 in DL's fleet. And please don't repeat the tired story of 'he said it at an employee event in front of my friend, who told me, and despite thousands of other DL employees hearing it, none are willing to collaborate it.' You keep saying it... for years... doesn't make it true. It's just silly at this point.

Its in a video from his "Ask Ed Anything." So while you may think it's "Silly", he's on record saying it. When its going to happen is anyone guess at this point. But the 787 is very much still in the running. Specially since DL wants to expand internationally to bring the International and Domestic revenue streams equal to 50/50.


A couple points:
1) You keep referring to the “50/50” revenue stream, but DL has never said such; domestic services account for the lion’s share of its current revenues, and DL has indicated that domestic services will grow at a much faster pace than long-haul in the future. Reality is, investors would sell if DL announced a massive long-haul expansion. Put simply, there’s no facts to your assertion.

2) Have you ever applied for a job and received a correspondence that said ‘while we’re not hiring you now, we will consider you for future opportunities.’ If so, did you interpet this as ‘I got the job’ ?. Ed saying ‘we will continue to consider the 787 for future orders’ does not equate into interest let alone a firm commitment. Ed realizes it’s a sensitive issue, he’s just playing the PR game.


Ed Bastian has said over and over again that the goal is to get International and domestic revenue closer to 50/50 compared to where it stands now (70/30, I believe). How Delta is going to achieve this, I have no idea since their current strategy seems to lean towards having joint venture partners do much of the flying. We will see.
 
global1
Posts: 485
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:53 am

Doesn’t revenue from JV routes apply to the domestic/international mix?
Revenue is revenue.
 
global1
Posts: 485
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:56 am

Are the first 763 refurbishments still set to begin Q1 of 2020?
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12848
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:01 am

BNAMealer wrote:
Has anything changed since the acquisition of LATAM’s A350 order?

Don't know yet. Hoping one of them will tell me, assuming THEY know, lol.


WidebodyPTV wrote:
The same people who were insisting that DL was going to order the 787 because the 350 wasn't performing to expectations... are now insisting that DL is going to order the 787 because 'they can't get widebodies fast enough.'

Seems like you're making up a boogeyman, rather than reciting anything actually claimed...
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 6638
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:46 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
People within this forum don't seem to realize that DL now has 57 firm 330/350 commitments, scheduled for delivery within the next seven years. Let's put that into perspective -- collectively, the capacity of the 339 and remaining 350 will be slightly larger than the 763 and 764 currently offers. Think about that, because that's significant given DL is forecasting only 2% annual long-haul growth in the near future.


Let's take a minute to go through the math.

First, I've seen the number 3% for international annual growth, not 2%. Second, the lie-flat fleet including the 75S is 154 frames at present (see planespotters.net). We can ignore that some of those are used in domestic service because the domestic growth target is even higher at 4%. Third, the last A350 frames were pushed out to the 2025-26 time frame. The end of 2026 is seven years away. 3% annual growth to 2026 is an incremental 35 frames. Do I think DL will retire 22 763s before then? At least that many.

There's the question of the stated 3% growth meaning departures or seats. (See how execs like to be vague to leave themselves some wiggle room even when they use numbers?) If it's seats then the 339/359 upgauging is relevant. If it's departures, or if avg stage length increases, you're going to need even more new aircraft.

Even with the 4 used + 10 new LATAM A359s DL does not have a surfeit of widebodies teed up. They will need to keep up the pace too, because by 2026 they should have plans in place to replace the 764s (all 21 delivered over a short 2 1/2 year period) and the 777ERs.
 
FSDan
Posts: 2889
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:28 pm

hkcanadaexpat wrote:
In this weekend's latest timetable, DL continued to tinker with the S20 schedule and aircraft allocation.
> The pre-DS 764 has been removed from the schedule
> The 2020 359 deliveries have been allocated to routes
> The 2020 339 deliveries have yet to be allocated to routes (SEA-PEK still has 76T placeholder)
> No sign yet of 2019/20 76L retirements

Changes reflected in this weekend's update:
ATL-AMS (3pm) 333->359
ATL-BCN 333->332
ATL-EZE 764->764(DS)
ATL-LIM 76Z->76T
ATL-MUC 764->76Z
ATL-ZRH 764->764(DS)
BOS-DUB 76Z->333
DTW-AMS (10pm) 333->359
DTW-CDG (4pm) 333->76Z
DTW-CDG (6pm) 333->76Z
DTW-FCO 76Z->333
DTW-LHR (6pm) 332->764DS
DTW-LHR (10pm) 332->764DS
DTW-MUC 764->332
JFK-GRU 764->764(DS)
JFK-TXL 76Z->76L
JFK-VCE 76Z->76L
MSP-AMS (5pm) 333->359
MSP-ICN 772->359
MSP-LHR 332->764DS
PDX-AMS 333->332
PDX-LHR 332->764DS
SEA-AMS 76Z->339

Definitely expect more changes


ATL-MUC was in the list of routes DL planned to put the reconfigured 764 on (along with all the other 764DS routes listed above). I wonder if they've changed that plan, or if it's just a timing thing while more are converted. Also, kind of surprised to see the 76T moved to such a short route as ATL-LIM, given the unique feature of this subfleet is the additional crew rest space.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
Capn
Posts: 261
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:14 pm

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:15 pm

I have read somewhere on Anet that DL. Would modify 6 767s for NFL charters to be used next season. Is there any substance to this ?
I had also heard that they were going to modify and dedicate a portion of the 767 fleet for transcons. Again, any substance to this ?
I find both very interesting...
UH-1 DEHAVILAND HERON MARTIN 404 DC-9 CHALLENGER 601 FALCON 50 & 900EX
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 210
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:04 pm

Capn wrote:
I have read somewhere on Anet that DL. Would modify 6 767s for NFL charters to be used next season. Is there any substance to this ?
I had also heard that they were going to modify and dedicate a portion of the 767 fleet for transcons. Again, any substance to this ?
I find both very interesting...


4 767s for the next NFL season.
 
jagraham
Posts: 983
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:23 pm

cessna2 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
People within this forum don't seem to realize that DL now has 57 firm 330/350 commitments, scheduled for delivery within the next seven years. Let's put that into perspective -- collectively, the capacity of the 339 and remaining 350 will be slightly larger than the 763 and 764 currently offers. Think about that, because that's significant given DL is forecasting only 2% annual long-haul growth in the near future.

The same people who were insisting that DL was going to order the 787 because the 350 wasn't performing to expectations... are now insisting that DL is going to order the 787 because 'they can't get widebodies fast enough.' I'd say that 57 widebodies being delivered largely in a six-year period, is close to the fastest pace DL is willing to adsorb them. On paper, once the last plane from these orders is delivered, DL will have 30 B763, B764 and B777A that collectively will average ~25-years-old. Obviously, some aircraft will be retired with longer service times than others, but quite frankly, there's little need for DL to add additional deliveries while these orders play out. And DL chooses to do so, a few extra 339/350 delivery slots (discounted after being cancelled by their original owner) or a few used 330 / 777 seems far more likely than introducing a brand new fleet type (787).

While I agree the 797 is in prime position to win some orders from DL for delivery late next decade, the idea of the 787 joining DL's fleet is just wishful thinking.

jumbojet wrote:
Delta wants the 797 to replace the bulk of the 767/757 fleet. Ed Bastian has said that much.


He never said anything close to that. In response to questions surrounding DL's preference for Airbus in recent orders, he said 'we have 200 757 and 767 up for replacement, and the order is Boeing's to lose - if it builds the plane we want, we'll order it.' It's nothing more than PR. Let's be realistic - the replacement orders for most of the 757 and 767 have already been made; a potential DL order for the 797, as a 767 replacement, will be modest.

cessna2 wrote:
The ship has not sailed. In fact Ed himself has said himself he sees the 787 in the fleet at some point. Most likely the 78X in my opinion. Next couple of years will be interesting.


Please support your assertion that "Ed himself" said he sees a role for the 787 in DL's fleet. And please don't repeat the tired story of 'he said it at an employee event in front of my friend, who told me, and despite thousands of other DL employees hearing it, none are willing to collaborate it.' You keep saying it... for years... doesn't make it true. It's just silly at this point.

Its in a video from his "Ask Ed Anything." So while you may think it's "Silly", he's on record saying it. When its going to happen is anyone guess at this point. But the 787 is very much still in the running. Specially since DL wants to expand internationally to bring the International and Domestic revenue streams equal to 50/50.


Bastian has also said in interviews that DL is waiting for the 797. As in not ordering other widebodies when they need them. Bastian also said that DL doesn't want to refurbish the 767 interiors, but they only have about 2 more years before they have to do something.

In particular, Airbus can deliver more 339s quickly. And if RR can get the Trent 1000 situation under control, Airbus could up the rate. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... at-448102/

So A339s can be had, but DL is not springing for them. Despite a need (don't forget, JV flying is not balanced and DL pilots are screaming over this, but a quick review of this thread shows that DL does not have the widebodies to balance JV flying at this time) that is getting desperate, DL is waiting for the most part. And most of the frames received so far have gone into growth; only 3 767s retired in the last lear or two. The 763 fleet is still at 56.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:14 pm

Packson wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
Packson wrote:

You really think Delta is going to put all their widebody orders into 2 airframes? There are 56 767's and 10 777's (not including the 8 LR's) Stay tuned. The 330-900 order's dont cover all the aircraft needs. Wouldn't it be a boost of confidence if Delta put their faith in a Boeing product after their recent troubles. Delta is always looking for opportunistic buys.

Another tidbit...Some of Delta's 321 NEO's deliveries are delayed they sure could use a few narrow body aircraft...just my opinion.


Delta wants the 797 to replace the bulk of the 767/757 fleet. Ed Bastian has said that much.

Also, Delta has said they will be taking 2 of LATAMs 359's towards the end of 2020.

Lastly, with the 797 supposed to be replacing the 767's, I just dont see DL getting any 787's. They dont need them at this point, especially with all the 350's and 339's still on order


I'm well aware of what Ed has said. At this point the 797 IF built, wont be ready until 2025 or later. You won't see the Latam birds in service until 2021 because of being rebranded. As for the latter we shall see.


Delta says 350's that were supposed to originally go to LATAM that they are now taking, are scheduled to be delivered beginning 2020. The quote is right here. That is what I am going on. Please tell me what you are basing 2021 on.

As part of the deal, Delta will also acquire four A350 aircraft from LATAM and assume LATAM’s commitment to purchase another 10 A350s to be delivered between 2020 and 2025 for an undisclosed sum.



https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lata ... SKBN1WB2UZ

about the 6th paragraph down.

Back to the 797's...Delta has said repeatedly that they want the 797 in their fleet. I believe they will get it and it will eventually replace a bunch of the 767's. I can be wrong but again, this makes the most sense. I don't see Delta being a strictly Airbus wide body airline.
 
timf
Posts: 548
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:36 am

Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:21 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Delta says 350's that were supposed to originally go to LATAM that they are now taking, are scheduled to be delivered beginning 2020. The quote is right here. That is what I am going on. Please tell me what you are basing 2021 on.

The 4 used ones won't arrive before 2021 due to refurbishment lead times. The 10 new deliveries are due starting in 2020.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: DL's new A359s from LATAM

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:25 pm

timf wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
Delta says 350's that were supposed to originally go to LATAM that they are now taking, are scheduled to be delivered beginning 2020. The quote is right here. That is what I am going on. Please tell me what you are basing 2021 on.

The 4 used ones won't arrive before 2021 due to refurbishment lead times. The 10 new deliveries are due starting in 2020.


Ahhhh, OK. That makes sense. So a total of 4 new 350's for DL next year; two of their own in early 2020 and two 'new' LATAM 350's towards the end of the year,
 
flyinghippo
Posts: 732
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:48 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:04 pm

So... still no guesses on what DL will do with the 14 extra A350s? :)

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