NateGreat
Posts: 401
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:02 pm

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:06 pm

hkcanadaexpat wrote:
A third 764 in quick succession heading to CAN for conversion. N833MH is flying commercial ATL-LAX-HNL and then ferrying HNL-CAN from 09/13.
A fourth one should follow shortly.

How many do you expect will be finished by S20?
 
hkcanadaexpat
Posts: 3885
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:33 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:19 pm

NateGreat wrote:
How many do you expect will be finished by S20?

All of them
 
NateGreat
Posts: 401
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:02 pm

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:37 pm

hkcanadaexpat wrote:
NateGreat wrote:
How many do you expect will be finished by S20?

All of them

Dang! Now that’s what I call progress!
 
audidudi
Posts: 2112
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:35 pm

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:30 am

After the busy summer schedule, the next 77L, N701DN, is heading to SIN for mods:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n701dn
 
Oliver2020
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:39 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:47 am

cessna2 wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
Interesting development. 2020 DL will be getting 7 A339’s versus the 4 planned. 2021 will see 11 join the fleet versus the 9 planned. DL has also increased its order from 35 total frames to 37.


What's the source of this information? Also, is it true that DL is taking A333s from WOW as well?

Jeremy

It was released in one of the Pilot newsletters this week. I have a screenshot that was sent to me, but cannot post it. Not sure if they plan to retire the 767's early or if this is for unannounced growth. DL is trying to get its Domestic and International flying revenue 50/50. Hoping this is for growth!


Can you confirm a source that someone can verify that the order has been increased to 37 -AC or copy and paste the information in the newsletter please?
 
SeanM1997
Posts: 293
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:27 pm

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:25 am

Does anyone have precise dates of the B767-400 starting:
Detroit - London Heathrow
Minneapolis - London Heathrow
Portland - London Heathrow?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5856
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:58 am

cessna2 wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
Interesting development. 2020 DL will be getting 7 A339’s versus the 4 planned. 2021 will see 11 join the fleet versus the 9 planned. DL has also increased its order from 35 total frames to 37.


What's the source of this information? Also, is it true that DL is taking A333s from WOW as well?

Jeremy

It was released in one of the Pilot newsletters this week. I have a screenshot that was sent to me, but cannot post it. Not sure if they plan to retire the 767's early or if this is for unannounced growth. DL is trying to get its Domestic and International flying revenue 50/50. Hoping this is for growth!


Sorry, but I call BS on the 50/50 revenue thing. The results for 2018 were very far off that, and DL has announced targets of 4% domestic growth targets and 2% international. Straight from the Annual Report:

domestic passenger revenue, $28,159 million
Atlantic, $6,165
Latin America $2,888
Pacific, $2,543

That's 29.2% international and a few extra A339s doesn't balance that. They'd be talking 80-100 incremental (not replacement) widebody frames.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2891
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:36 pm

hkcanadaexpat wrote:
A third 764 in quick succession heading to CAN for conversion. N833MH is flying commercial ATL-LAX-HNL and then ferrying HNL-CAN from 09/13.
A fourth one should follow shortly.


How many 764's have completed conversions? I thought there was a thread on that, or is this it? Where can I find the tail or reg #'s of the converted 764's; I got a JFK-AMS-JFK flight coming up in December on DL's 764, it would be nice to wind up on the freshly refurbed 764
 
jb1087xna
Posts: 442
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:11 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:45 pm

jumbojet wrote:
hkcanadaexpat wrote:
A third 764 in quick succession heading to CAN for conversion. N833MH is flying commercial ATL-LAX-HNL and then ferrying HNL-CAN from 09/13.
A fourth one should follow shortly.


How many 764's have completed conversions? I thought there was a thread on that, or is this it? Where can I find the tail or reg #'s of the converted 764's; I got a JFK-AMS-JFK flight coming up in December on DL's 764, it would be nice to wind up on the freshly refurbed 764


Only one has been completed thus far, N828MH. The refurbishment thread has the info by tail number.
Next up: XNA-ATL-IAH-MSP-XNA
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2891
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:47 pm

jb1087xna wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
hkcanadaexpat wrote:
A third 764 in quick succession heading to CAN for conversion. N833MH is flying commercial ATL-LAX-HNL and then ferrying HNL-CAN from 09/13.
A fourth one should follow shortly.


How many 764's have completed conversions? I thought there was a thread on that, or is this it? Where can I find the tail or reg #'s of the converted 764's; I got a JFK-AMS-JFK flight coming up in December on DL's 764, it would be nice to wind up on the freshly refurbed 764


Only one has been completed thus far, N828MH. The refurbishment thread has the info by tail number.


I knew there was a refurb thread. GOnna loojk for it now
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2891
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:50 pm

As for the 339 on DTW-SEA between 10/15 and 10/25, I wanna book a flight on this route but just about every flight, the seat mapper would lead you to believe that the flights are nearly sold out. I checked 10/15 - 10/20. Mistake or what?
 
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flymco753
Posts: 3271
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:22 pm

jumbojet wrote:
As for the 339 on DTW-SEA between 10/15 and 10/25, I wanna book a flight on this route but just about every flight, the seat mapper would lead you to believe that the flights are nearly sold out. I checked 10/15 - 10/20. Mistake or what?
Good opportunity for avgeeks to fly on it domestically, I wouldn't be surprised if it's more full than normal. A few of us in Orlando are going to try and non rev on it.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2891
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:30 pm

flymco753 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
As for the 339 on DTW-SEA between 10/15 and 10/25, I wanna book a flight on this route but just about every flight, the seat mapper would lead you to believe that the flights are nearly sold out. I checked 10/15 - 10/20. Mistake or what?
Good opportunity for avgeeks to fly on it domestically, I wouldn't be surprised if it's more full than normal. A few of us in Orlando are going to try and non rev on it.


I'm looking to take this out of NYC. The SEA - DTW flights, ironically, are wide open but DTW-SEA are just about sold out, every day, every cabin. Crazy.
 
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TransWorldOne
Posts: 313
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 12:13 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:12 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
SESGDL wrote:

What's the source of this information? Also, is it true that DL is taking A333s from WOW as well?

Jeremy

It was released in one of the Pilot newsletters this week. I have a screenshot that was sent to me, but cannot post it. Not sure if they plan to retire the 767's early or if this is for unannounced growth. DL is trying to get its Domestic and International flying revenue 50/50. Hoping this is for growth!


Sorry, but I call BS on the 50/50 revenue thing. The results for 2018 were very far off that, and DL has announced targets of 4% domestic growth targets and 2% international. Straight from the Annual Report:

domestic passenger revenue, $28,159 million
Atlantic, $6,165
Latin America $2,888
Pacific, $2,543

That's 29.2% international and a few extra A339s doesn't balance that. They'd be talking 80-100 incremental (not replacement) widebody frames.


Ed Bastian himself has been quoted as saying this but I, too, am skeptical. Unless DL announces a large widebody order soon I don’t see how it’s possible for them to get their international revenue up to 50%, unless they are including their JV partners in that figure.
 
cessna2
Posts: 345
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:16 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:35 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
SESGDL wrote:

What's the source of this information? Also, is it true that DL is taking A333s from WOW as well?

Jeremy

It was released in one of the Pilot newsletters this week. I have a screenshot that was sent to me, but cannot post it. Not sure if they plan to retire the 767's early or if this is for unannounced growth. DL is trying to get its Domestic and International flying revenue 50/50. Hoping this is for growth!


Sorry, but I call BS on the 50/50 revenue thing. The results for 2018 were very far off that, and DL has announced targets of 4% domestic growth targets and 2% international. Straight from the Annual Report:

domestic passenger revenue, $28,159 million
Atlantic, $6,165
Latin America $2,888
Pacific, $2,543

You can call BS all you want but DL wants its revenue streams to be 50/50. Right now domestic makes up 75% of their revenue. Being as the domestic market is mature, the only way to bring more revenue is through international expansion. The goal is 50/50 spilt between domestic and international revenue streams.

That's 29.2% international and a few extra A339s doesn't balance that. They'd be talking 80-100 incremental (not replacement) widebody frames.
 
cessna2
Posts: 345
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:16 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:43 pm

TransWorldOne wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
It was released in one of the Pilot newsletters this week. I have a screenshot that was sent to me, but cannot post it. Not sure if they plan to retire the 767's early or if this is for unannounced growth. DL is trying to get its Domestic and International flying revenue 50/50. Hoping this is for growth!


Sorry, but I call BS on the 50/50 revenue thing. The results for 2018 were very far off that, and DL has announced targets of 4% domestic growth targets and 2% international. Straight from the Annual Report:

domestic passenger revenue, $28,159 million
Atlantic, $6,165
Latin America $2,888
Pacific, $2,543

That's 29.2% international and a few extra A339s doesn't balance that. They'd be talking 80-100 incremental (not replacement) widebody frames.


Ed Bastian himself has been quoted as saying this but I, too, am skeptical. Unless DL announces a large widebody order soon I don’t see how it’s possible for them to get their international revenue up to 50%, unless they are including their JV partners in that figure.

I think you'll see a widebody order soon. Its between the 787 and 797. DL wants to be the launch customer of the 797 but with the Max issue, i'm not sure Boeing has the resources to launch it. So I think we'll see a 787 order with at least 20 aircraft coming soon.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2147
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:52 pm

cessna2 wrote:
TransWorldOne wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

Sorry, but I call BS on the 50/50 revenue thing. The results for 2018 were very far off that, and DL has announced targets of 4% domestic growth targets and 2% international. Straight from the Annual Report:

domestic passenger revenue, $28,159 million
Atlantic, $6,165
Latin America $2,888
Pacific, $2,543

That's 29.2% international and a few extra A339s doesn't balance that. They'd be talking 80-100 incremental (not replacement) widebody frames.


Ed Bastian himself has been quoted as saying this but I, too, am skeptical. Unless DL announces a large widebody order soon I don’t see how it’s possible for them to get their international revenue up to 50%, unless they are including their JV partners in that figure.

I think you'll see a widebody order soon. Its between the 787 and 797. DL wants to be the launch customer of the 797 but with the Max issue, i'm not sure Boeing has the resources to launch it. So I think we'll see a 787 order with at least 20 aircraft coming soon.


Is it just your speculation of its only a Boeing order between 787/797? Or is there some basis you have that you can't share? Also, what is soon? (Not intending this as a catty remark, its just curiosity to gauge its veracity). If true, you may see a larger order with 787 options convertible to the 797, of course, we probably will never know that as its just baked into the contract.

Edit: I would love to see the 787 for DL (especially a nice mix of 787-8s and 787-10s) and would be very interested if DL does 3-3-3 or 2-4-2. Passenger comfort seems pretty important (with a few exceptions), looking at the A220 seating and 777 seating decision.
 
cessna2
Posts: 345
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:16 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:31 am

jbs2886 wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
TransWorldOne wrote:

Ed Bastian himself has been quoted as saying this but I, too, am skeptical. Unless DL announces a large widebody order soon I don’t see how it’s possible for them to get their international revenue up to 50%, unless they are including their JV partners in that figure.

I think you'll see a widebody order soon. Its between the 787 and 797. DL wants to be the launch customer of the 797 but with the Max issue, i'm not sure Boeing has the resources to launch it. So I think we'll see a 787 order with at least 20 aircraft coming soon.


Is it just your speculation of its only a Boeing order between 787/797? Or is there some basis you have that you can't share? Also, what is soon? (Not intending this as a catty remark, its just curiosity to gauge its veracity). If true, you may see a larger order with 787 options convertible to the 797, of course, we probably will never know that as its just baked into the contract.

Edit: I would love to see the 787 for DL (especially a nice mix of 787-8s and 787-10s) and would be very interested if DL does 3-3-3 or 2-4-2. Passenger comfort seems pretty important (with a few exceptions), looking at the A220 seating and 777 seating decision.

At one of DL's employee events Ed said, "We are looking at both the 787 and 797 with a minimum order of 20 airplanes." There are also numerous articles stating DL wants to be the launch customer of the 797. I'm not confident the 797 will be ready by the time DL needs them. So the 787 would be a place to start.
 
seanpmassey
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon May 23, 2016 3:22 pm

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:35 am

cessna2 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
I think you'll see a widebody order soon. Its between the 787 and 797. DL wants to be the launch customer of the 797 but with the Max issue, i'm not sure Boeing has the resources to launch it. So I think we'll see a 787 order with at least 20 aircraft coming soon.


Is it just your speculation of its only a Boeing order between 787/797? Or is there some basis you have that you can't share? Also, what is soon? (Not intending this as a catty remark, its just curiosity to gauge its veracity). If true, you may see a larger order with 787 options convertible to the 797, of course, we probably will never know that as its just baked into the contract.

Edit: I would love to see the 787 for DL (especially a nice mix of 787-8s and 787-10s) and would be very interested if DL does 3-3-3 or 2-4-2. Passenger comfort seems pretty important (with a few exceptions), looking at the A220 seating and 777 seating decision.

At one of DL's employee events Ed said, "We are looking at both the 787 and 797 with a minimum order of 20 airplanes." There are also numerous articles stating DL wants to be the launch customer of the 797. I'm not confident the 797 will be ready by the time DL needs them. So the 787 would be a place to start.


Why not buy more 339s and see if they can get their remaining 359 slots moved up then? Why add another fleet type?
 
blacksoviet
Posts: 1242
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:50 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:20 am

cessna2 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
I think you'll see a widebody order soon. Its between the 787 and 797. DL wants to be the launch customer of the 797 but with the Max issue, i'm not sure Boeing has the resources to launch it. So I think we'll see a 787 order with at least 20 aircraft coming soon.


Is it just your speculation of its only a Boeing order between 787/797? Or is there some basis you have that you can't share? Also, what is soon? (Not intending this as a catty remark, its just curiosity to gauge its veracity). If true, you may see a larger order with 787 options convertible to the 797, of course, we probably will never know that as its just baked into the contract.

Edit: I would love to see the 787 for DL (especially a nice mix of 787-8s and 787-10s) and would be very interested if DL does 3-3-3 or 2-4-2. Passenger comfort seems pretty important (with a few exceptions), looking at the A220 seating and 777 seating decision.

At one of DL's employee events Ed said, "We are looking at both the 787 and 797 with a minimum order of 20 airplanes." There are also numerous articles stating DL wants to be the launch customer of the 797. I'm not confident the 797 will be ready by the time DL needs them. So the 787 would be a place to start.
I see DL eventually ordering both variants of the 797. Delta still has a large fleet of both 757-200s and 757-300s that must be replaced and the 787 is too big for most of these routes.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2147
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:56 am

cessna2 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
I think you'll see a widebody order soon. Its between the 787 and 797. DL wants to be the launch customer of the 797 but with the Max issue, i'm not sure Boeing has the resources to launch it. So I think we'll see a 787 order with at least 20 aircraft coming soon.


Is it just your speculation of its only a Boeing order between 787/797? Or is there some basis you have that you can't share? Also, what is soon? (Not intending this as a catty remark, its just curiosity to gauge its veracity). If true, you may see a larger order with 787 options convertible to the 797, of course, we probably will never know that as its just baked into the contract.

Edit: I would love to see the 787 for DL (especially a nice mix of 787-8s and 787-10s) and would be very interested if DL does 3-3-3 or 2-4-2. Passenger comfort seems pretty important (with a few exceptions), looking at the A220 seating and 777 seating decision.

At one of DL's employee events Ed said, "We are looking at both the 787 and 797 with a minimum order of 20 airplanes." There are also numerous articles stating DL wants to be the launch customer of the 797. I'm not confident the 797 will be ready by the time DL needs them. So the 787 would be a place to start.


Very interesting. Thank you! I knew DL really wants the 797, but didn't know about the 787. When are they thinking delivery for potential 787s? 2022 (which is apparently where production slots are available per the 787 thread)?
 
Oliver2020
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:39 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:41 am

Do any of you guys in the know have any credible information on the RUMOR of an increase of the A339 order from 35AC to 37AC?
 
Oliver2020
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:39 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:01 am

jbs2886 wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Is it just your speculation of its only a Boeing order between 787/797? Or is there some basis you have that you can't share? Also, what is soon? (Not intending this as a catty remark, its just curiosity to gauge its veracity). If true, you may see a larger order with 787 options convertible to the 797, of course, we probably will never know that as its just baked into the contract.

Edit: I would love to see the 787 for DL (especially a nice mix of 787-8s and 787-10s) and would be very interested if DL does 3-3-3 or 2-4-2. Passenger comfort seems pretty important (with a few exceptions), looking at the A220 seating and 777 seating decision.

At one of DL's employee events Ed said, "We are looking at both the 787 and 797 with a minimum order of 20 airplanes." There are also numerous articles stating DL wants to be the launch customer of the 797. I'm not confident the 797 will be ready by the time DL needs them. So the 787 would be a place to start.


Source?

Very interesting. Thank you! I knew DL really wants the 797, but didn't know about the 787. When are they thinking delivery for potential 787s? 2022 (which is apparently where production slots are available per the 787 thread)?


Let me say first and foremost the 787 is a great AC, BUT it's not a magic AC.

Delta has all the numbers they need on the 787 and the performance of the aircraft and the engine performance in regards to GE and RR.
They own 49% of Virgin Atlantic whom operate the 787-9 with RR engines.
Delta owns 49%!of Aeromexico whom operate the 787-8and the 787-9 with GE engines.
Delta has also went through a year long RFP in circa 2013-2014. and chose the A339 and A359 over the 787.
 
AlexBrewster03
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:12 pm

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:14 am

This might be stupid, but if they want something similar in size to the 787, why not just go with the A330-800? Keeps commonality within the fleet and i can imagine Airbus would give them a great price...? This is something I’ve always wondered...
 
Oliver2020
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:39 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:16 am

For reference this is the age of the 767-300er and 767-400er as of today. DL's fleet is a hobby of mine circa 2012, and the following numbers are a combination of the FFA website( I ran all the N numbers and I'm quite aware I have way to much free time on my days off, and my annual vacation), plane spotters, and airfleets.
766-300ER (56 AC)
208-226 seats
1990-7
1991-5
1992-3
1993-2
1995-3
1996-2
1997-9
1998-9
1999-8
2000-6
2001-2

767-400ER(21 AC)
238 seats ( this is the seat count after mods are complete before I get flamed due to the fact the current seat count is 246)
1999- 3
2000-11
2001- 4
2002- 3
 
cessna2
Posts: 345
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:16 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:17 am

Oliver2020 wrote:
Do any of you guys in the know have any credible information on the RUMOR of an increase of the A339 order from 35AC to 37AC?

Yes. It was published to the pilot workgroup in this month's A330 newsletter. With the additional deliveries they also added 2 more AC for a total of 37.
 
NateGreat
Posts: 401
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:02 pm

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:37 am

So, will SEA-HND be operated by an A330-900 or by an A350-900? The first link says A339, but the second link and Delta’s schedule say A359.
https://news.delta.com/delta-become-lar ... aneda-2020
https://onemileatatime.com/delta-tokyo-haneda-flights/
Also, if SEA-HND starting 3/28 will be on an A359, which route will the A339 that was previously used for SEA-NRT likely be shifted to?
 
Oliver2020
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:39 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:44 am

cessna2 wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:
Do any of you guys in the know have any credible information on the RUMOR of an increase of the A339 order from 35AC to 37AC?

Yes. It was published to the pilot workgroup in this month's A330 newsletter. With the additional deliveries they also added 2 more AC for a total of 37.


Once again post the newsletter or it's a Rumor until the Q3 sec filing is published which will list the 37 AC if it's true. I say this because the only websites that the additional 2 AC are listed on are flyertalk, and airlinepilot central( 2 of websites that are beyond unreliable with the exception of Wikipedia
 
NateGreat
Posts: 401
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:02 pm

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:45 am

SeanM1997 wrote:
Does anyone have precise dates of the B767-400 starting:
Detroit - London Heathrow
Minneapolis - London Heathrow
Portland - London Heathrow?

Also, for when each individual of the 3 JFK-LHR, 2 ATL-LHR, and 2 DTW-LHR flights switch from A330 to B764. IIRC, the first official new B764 flight will be DL30/31 ATL-LHR-ATL (the first of two ATL-LHR-ATL flights).
 
blacksoviet
Posts: 1242
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:50 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:08 am

Will the A338 replace the 764?
 
hkcanadaexpat
Posts: 3885
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:33 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:11 am

Here's one way to look at the widebody replacement program:

Let's assume that the 2x A359s to be delivered Q1-2020 to be for growth. either JFK-BOM (indirectly) or MSP-PVG (directly).
That leaves a book of 10x 359s and call it 35x 339s as the first batch of 76W the first deliveries are replacing are still in the fleet (due to be retired during W19-20 schedule)
Let's also assume that the entire backlog of 45 frames is for replacement not expansion (other than seat count expansion from 76W->339)

In such a scenario, the 35x 339s would likely replace the 35x oldest remaining 76Ws (up to including frame #1703) in the period of 2019-23 (this does not account for the accelerated 339 delivery scheduled rumored) and the 10x 359s would replace the 10x 772s in the period 2025-26.

So where does this leave the fleet? The oldest types would then be the 17 remaining 76Ws (1998-2001 vintage) followed by the 21 764s (2000-2002 vintage). Those would then be, in theory, the frames targeted by the next widebody RFP.

How does a potential 787/797 order fit in all of this? A rumored order for 20x covers nicely the remaining 17x 76Ws with a little room for growth (new routes or taking over routes currently flown by 75Ws). Obviously things would likely be more fluid in terms of delivery flow (i.e. not 35x 339s followed by 20x 787/797s but a mix & match of deliveries based on demand/routes - would a 787/797 order result in more spread out deliveries of 339s rather than an accelerated one?).

How do the rumored 2x additional 339s fit in? Probably growth. Could also be put towards retirement of those 17x 76Ws remaining.

The point being that, unless some of the current backlog of 339/359s are earmarked for growth (new routes/frequencies), the next RFP is for replacement of ~17x 763s and 21x 764s. And for that RFP, there is definitely a valid case for either one of the 787/797/338/339s.
 
Oliver2020
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:39 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:52 am

hkcanadaexpat wrote:
Here's one way to look at the widebody replacement program:

Let's assume that the 2x A359s to be delivered Q1-2020 to be for growth. either JFK-BOM (indirectly) or MSP-PVG (directly).
That leaves a book of 10x 359s and call it 35x 339s as the first batch of 76W the first deliveries are replacing are still in the fleet (due to be retired during W19-20 schedule)
Let's also assume that the entire backlog of 45 frames is for replacement not expansion (other than seat count expansion from 76W->339)

In such a scenario, the 35x 339s would likely replace the 35x oldest remaining 76Ws (up to including frame #1703) in the period of 2019-23 (this does not account for the accelerated 339 delivery scheduled rumored) and the 10x 359s would replace the 10x 772s in the period 2025-26.

So where does this leave the fleet? The oldest types would then be the 17 remaining 76Ws (1998-2001 vintage) followed by the 21 764s (2000-2002 vintage). Those would then be, in theory, the frames targeted by the next widebody RFP.

How does a potential 787/797 order fit in all of this? A rumored order for 20x covers nicely the remaining 17x 76Ws with a little room for growth (new routes or taking over routes currently flown by 75Ws). Obviously things would likely be more fluid in terms of delivery flow (i.e. not 35x 339s followed by 20x 787/797s but a mix & match of deliveries based on demand/routes - would a 787/797 order result in more spread out deliveries of 339s rather than an accelerated one?).

How do the rumored 2x additional 339s fit in? Probably growth. Could also be put towards retirement of those 17x 76Ws remaining.

The point being that, unless some of the current backlog of 339/359s are earmarked for growth (new routes/frequencies), the next RFP is for replacement of ~17x 763s and 21x 764s. And for that RFP, there is definitely a valid case for either one of the 787/797/338/339s.


As your in the know for certain can you provide me the info if you have up until 2023 on the 763er that are going to be retired? Huge favor an N number or
Line number so I can update my notes?

For further discussion these are the delivery dates of the transcon/international 752 so we can add to the discussion what the RFP will be.

752-trans con /international
ETOPS
168 seats currently
1993- 1
1996- 2
1997- 9
1999- 5
2000- 1

752P ETOPS currently 193 seats
2004-5
 
factsonly
Posts: 2700
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:57 am

The latest delivery DL A339 N403DX is making its maiden commercial service ATL-AMS-ATL on DL72/DL73, this is also the first DL A339 service to Europe:

- 14 Sep 2019 Atlanta (ATL) Amsterdam (AMS) DL72 A339 N403DX
- 15 Sep 2019 Amsterdam (AMS) Atlanta (ATL) DL73 A339 N403DX
- 15 Sep 2019 Atlanta (ATL) Seattle (SEA) DL1107 A339 N403DX
- 16 Sep 2019 Seattle (SEA) Seoul (ICN) DL199 A339 N403DX

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... x#221b70bf
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2891
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:10 am

788's obviously would open up some interesting possibilities out of SEA that they can't really fly with their current fleet.
 
Oliver2020
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:39 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:29 pm

jumbojet wrote:
788's obviously would open up some interesting possibilities out of SEA that they can't really fly with their current fleet.




With purchase price, adding an additional fleet to gamble on whether a route would be profitable or not, the 788 makes no sense the 787-9 would be a logical choice if Delta adds the 787 to there fleet.

The only reason I say this is because they have had multiple opportunities to add the fleet and I can assure you if adding the 787 in any form made sense they would have them on property.

Can you explain how the current fleet can not fly out of Seattle, I beg to differ due to the fact the people in Atlanta know the numbers and that's the reason they haven't ordered the 787.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2891
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:46 pm

Oliver2020 wrote:
[

Can you explain how the current fleet can not fly out of Seattle, I beg to differ due to the fact the people in Atlanta know the numbers and that's the reason they haven't ordered the 787.


I'm no expert but just based on what I've read, the 788 is the perfect plane for those 'long and thin' routes. DL really doesnt have a plane that fits that profile. If they do, then its news to me. And according to published reports, DL only went with the 350 because the 350 was available a lot sooner than the 787s. Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
Oliver2020
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:39 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:34 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:
[

Can you explain how the current fleet can not fly out of Seattle, I beg to differ due to the fact the people in Atlanta know the numbers and that's the reason they haven't ordered the 787.


I'm no expert but just based on what I've read, the 788 is the perfect plane for those 'long and thin' routes. DL really doesnt have a plane that fits that profile. If they do, then its news to me. And according to published reports, DL only went with the 350 because the 350 was available a lot sooner than the 787s. Please correct me if I am wrong.


Yes it's a perfect plane for long thin routes, BUT the 788 is not a perfect plane for Delta or they would have ordered it. In reference to the A359 over the 787. Richard Anderson( once he was CEO of Delta) wasn't a huge fan of the 788, he wanted the 789 and there are several articles and videos where he mentioned that.

As I always request a source do not take anyone's word on the above, Google the RFP and Richard Anderson he explains a lot about the workings of RFP s.
Last edited by Oliver2020 on Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Oliver2020
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:39 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:35 pm

duplicate
 
TW870
Posts: 1016
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:02 pm

SUNCTRY738 wrote:
I am not understanding why MSP-HND will be on an A350 and MSP-ICN will be on an A339. Seems like there would be more traffic on the ICN leg than to HND.


MSP-HND is one of those routes that has dogged a.net for a long time. Knowledgeable people have speculated that the route will fail. I have not speculated this, but I am compelled by their arguments about the route's redundancy in the DL network and obvious lack of feed in Japan. But DL seems to disagree with us, as the route has continued to operate with the largest gauge in the fleet, and was among the first routes that got the 777 D1 suites. And yet again, they put the larger, higher capacity aircraft on MSP-HND, not MSP-ICN (if we believe at next summer will have the 339 on ICN and the 359 on HND). One idea relates to cargo, as I am guessing that the 359 can carry far more cargo (both in volume and weight) than the 339. A friend in the restaurant business in MSP gets his fresh fish off the HND flight every day, and those sorts of high value shipments might be driving fleet assignment here.
 
TheHunt3r
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:38 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:17 pm

Regarding the 2014 widebody RFP(747 and 767 replacement):
https://aviationweek.com/commercial-avi ... cement-rfp

A few key points that can still be relevant:

Range:
"Anderson is pushing for a new 275-seat aircraft that would have a range of 5,000-5,500 naut. mi. He argues that “aircraft that underfly their range are uneconomical. You cannot make a 777 consistently profitable flying only East Coast to Europe. That would be routes 1,000 or 2,000 naut. mi. shorter than what it was designed for.”"

Delta has all the data they need now that they operate the A330neo:
"Anderson says and points out that Delta can draw upon operational experience by its partner carriers Aeromexico and Virgin Atlantic on the 787 side."

Good oportunity for the 797:
"While the A330 and 787 are candidates for part of the 767 missions, “there is no obvious replacement for the 757.""

The things that have changed since then are for example: Available 787 slots, small 787-8 production optimization, possibility of the 797, A339 operational experience. Both the 787-8 and the A338 are relatively close in capacity to the 767s, however their design range is too high and the aircraft are both quite heavy. The A338 especially in my opinion doesn't make sense(too small gap between it and the 339, heavier than 787-8). So it all depends on availability of the 797. Without the 797 I think the 787 has a chance or maybe a combination of A339s and A321XLRs. There doesn't seem to be a perfect solution on the market, makes me wonder if some young secondhand A332s wouldn't be a bad interim solution.
 
hkcanadaexpat
Posts: 3885
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:33 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:06 pm

Oliver2020 wrote:
As your in the know for certain can you provide me the info if you have up until 2023 on the 763er that are going to be retired? Huge favor an N number or
Line number so I can update my notes?

There is no hard rule on which 76W will be retired in which sequence. A lot of factors come at work starting with heavy maintenance check schedule but also including oil prices, strength of economy, network growth, cabin refreshment needs etc...
If you ignore the rumored acceleration of 339 deliveries (and as a result the probable acceleration of 76W retirements), the retirement schedule probably looks like this based on next heavy maintenance check:
2019/20 Winter: 171/172/174/175
2020/21 Winter: 176/177/178/179 (that would be the end of the 76L fleet)
2021/22 Winter: 1502/1504/1505/1506/180/181/182/183/184
 
SUNCTRY738
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 3:39 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:14 pm

TW870 wrote:
SUNCTRY738 wrote:
I am not understanding why MSP-HND will be on an A350 and MSP-ICN will be on an A339. Seems like there would be more traffic on the ICN leg than to HND.


MSP-HND is one of those routes that has dogged a.net for a long time. Knowledgeable people have speculated that the route will fail. I have not speculated this, but I am compelled by their arguments about the route's redundancy in the DL network and obvious lack of feed in Japan. But DL seems to disagree with us, as the route has continued to operate with the largest gauge in the fleet, and was among the first routes that got the 777 D1 suites. And yet again, they put the larger, higher capacity aircraft on MSP-HND, not MSP-ICN (if we believe at next summer will have the 339 on ICN and the 359 on HND). One idea relates to cargo, as I am guessing that the 359 can carry far more cargo (both in volume and weight) than the 339. A friend in the restaurant business in MSP gets his fresh fish off the HND flight every day, and those sorts of high value shipments might be driving fleet assignment here.


Thank you!
 
Oliver2020
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:39 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:24 pm

hkcanadaexpat wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:
As your in the know for certain can you provide me the info if you have up until 2023 on the 763er that are going to be retired? Huge favor an N number or
Line number so I can update my notes?

There is no hard rule on which 76W will be retired in which sequence. A lot of factors come at work starting with heavy maintenance check schedule but also including oil prices, strength of economy, network growth, cabin refreshment needs etc...
If you ignore the rumored acceleration of 339 deliveries (and as a result the probable acceleration of 76W retirements), the retirement schedule probably looks like this based on next heavy maintenance check:
2019/20 Winter: 171/172/174/175
2020/21 Winter: 176/177/178/179 (that would be the end of the 76L fleet)
2021/22 Winter: 1502/1504/1505/1506/180/181/182/183/184


First of all thank you and N515cr for both of you guys hard work and dedication to the DL widebody and narrowbody threads.

Thanks for the numbers and information, and do you remember ED mentioning that he wanted to increase the WB fleet by 2 AC each year for growth.
14 A339 = 17 763er
20-A339= 2 per year 2019-2023
34 of the 35 order plus the 2 a359's coming next year.

The AC you listed would retire the 763er up to 1993, which would coincide with retire AC at heavy checks and 30 years provides the ROI.
I have checked planespotters and ran the N numbers on the FAA website so by year these are the numbers for the above AC.
Websites/source used

https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquir ... quiry.aspx

https://m.planespotters.net/airframe/Bo ... s/PnbosLYq

2019 heavy check
171-1990-n171dn
172-1990-n172dn
174-1990-n174dn
175-1990-n175dn

2020
176-1990-n176dn
177-1990-n177dn
178-1991-n178dn
179-1991-n179dn

2021/2022
1502-1990-n152dl
1504-1991-n154dl
1505-1991-n155dl
1506-1991-n156dl
180-1992-n180dn
181-1992-n181dn
182-1992-n182dn
183-1993-n183dn
184-1993-n184dn
 
bugsbegone
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:03 pm

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:52 pm

hkcanadaexpat wrote:
There is no hard rule on which 76W will be retired in which sequence. A lot of factors come at work starting with heavy maintenance check schedule but also including oil prices, strength of economy, network growth, cabin refreshment needs etc...
If you ignore the rumored acceleration of 339 deliveries (and as a result the probable acceleration of 76W retirements), the retirement schedule probably looks like this based on next heavy maintenance check:
2019/20 Winter: 171/172/174/175
2020/21 Winter: 176/177/178/179 (that would be the end of the 76L fleet)
2021/22 Winter: 1502/1504/1505/1506/180/181/182/183/184


Excellent update...thanks. But I show there are currently 10 76L's..2 more than the 8 you list. I show 183 and 185 are 76L. Am I wrong? Not sure how that would affect anything or if it may explain the extra 339 deliveries.
 
hkcanadaexpat
Posts: 3885
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:33 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:51 am

bugsbegone wrote:
hkcanadaexpat wrote:
Excellent update...thanks. But I show there are currently 10 76L's..2 more than the 8 you list. I show 183 and 185 are 76L. Am I wrong? Not sure how that would affect anything or if it may explain the extra 339 deliveries.

183/185 are due for 76L->76Z conversion during W19/20.
 
hkcanadaexpat
Posts: 3885
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:33 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:18 am

09/09-09/15 Period
Total Fleet: 153
Scheduled Service: 139/153
Spares: 7/153 (1x76T; 2x76Z; 1x764(DS); 1x339; 2x333)
Conversion: 4/153 (3x [email protected]; 1x [email protected])
Maintenance: 3/153 ([email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected])
Induction/Storage: 0/153

Highlights
> Weather event in ATL on 09/10 resulting in multiple 2+hr delays to BCN, CDG, LHR, LIM, SCL & STR
> N403DX (339) exited induction and is now in the active fleet
> Accelerated deployment of 339 on SEA-ICN route effective 9/16
> The next 764 going into mods (N833MH) arrived in CAN on 9/15
> The next 77L going into mods (N701DN) arrived in SIN on 9/15
> The next 339 (N404DX) performed its maiden test flight in TLS on 9/13

Flight/Route Changes
> ATL-CDG (82) migrates from 7HD to 77L effective 9/15
> ATL-CDG (84) migrates from 333 to 7HD effective 9/15
> IND-CVG (500/501) x3 from daily effective 9/11
> NRT-SIN (169/168) x23 from x13 effective 9/10
> RDU-CDG (230/231) 76Z to 76L effective 9/9

Upgrades from narrowbody fleet
9/9: ATL-LAX-ATL; JFK-ATL; ATL-DTW (2x); DTW-ATL (2x); ATL-SEA
9/11: JFK-SFO; ATL-LAX-ATL
9/12: SFO-JFK-SFO
9/13: SFO-JFK; ATL-LAX-HNL
9/14: BOS-ATL; SEA-DTW-SEA
9/15: SEA-ATL; ATL-SEA

Military Charters
9/14-15: LAX-HNL-AEX-LAX

Noteworthy Diversions
9/9: AMS-SEA -> PDX (weather)
9/10: LAX-ATL -> MEM (weather); DUS-ATL -> BOS (weather); FCO-ATL -> CLT (weather); LHR-ATL -> TYS (weather)
9/15: PVG-ATL -> ANC (medical)

Flight Cancellations
9/11: AMS-SEA
9/13: ATL-DUS
9/14: VCE-ATL; AMS-ATL; ATH-JFK
9/15: NCE-JFK
 
invertalon
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:29 pm

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:43 am

Just booked a trip to Germany, from DTW to MUC on a 767-400 to/from. This flight is in May, 2020.

I assume these will be remodeled cabins according to all I read, but this particular flight isn't shown on any of the articles or anything I find. Anybody know?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5856
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:28 pm

It's been noted that the plan calls for all 764s to be refurbed before summer 2020 flying. The last frames should be in for refurbishment in early May, if not sooner. IMHO the greater risk is a scheduled frame change before May, not an unrefurbed 764.
 
KFTG
Posts: 183
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:21 pm

Just saw a 767-400 depart Denver for LAX as DL1085.
 
hkcanadaexpat
Posts: 3885
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:33 am

Re: Delta Widebody Thread - 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:41 pm

09/16-09/22 Period
Total Fleet: 153
Scheduled Service: 138/153
Spares: 10/153 (4x76T; 1x76L; 1x76Z; 1x764(DS); 1x772; 2x333)
Conversion: 4/153 (3x [email protected]; 1x [email protected])
Maintenance: 1/153 ([email protected])
Induction/Storage: 0/153

Highlights
> unconfirmed but the first 764 with DSuites (N828MH) may have began FAA approval for the IFE system at ATL prior to formal launch
> The next 339 (N404DX) performed a second test flight in TLS on 9/20

Flight/Route Changes
> DTW-NGO (95/94) from Daily to x2 effective 9/17
> SEA-ICN (199/198) from 76T to 339 effective 9/16

Upgrades from narrowbody fleet
9/16: ATL-FLL-ATL-MCO; ATL-JFK
9/17: SEA-LAX-SEA-SLC; MCO-ATL-SLC; DEN-LAX-MSP
9/18: ATL-DTW; SLC-ATL-FLL-ATL; MSP-LAX-MSP
9/19: DTW-ATL; ATL-SLC-HNL; MSP-LAX
9/20: BOS-ATL; ATL-BOS; SLC-HNL-ATL-SEA
9/21: JFK-ATL; ATL-SLC-HNL
9/22: HNL-SLC-ATL-FLL-ATL-MCO

Charters
9/19: JFK-BOS-PIE-JFK (Boston Red Sox)
9/20-23: LAX-NKT-RIV-NKT-RIV-NKT-RIV-ANC-GPT-ATL

Noteworthy Diversions
9/19: JFK-LAX -> DEN (medical)

Flight Cancellations
9/18 BCN-ATL
9/19: RDU-CDG
9/22: NRT-MNL

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