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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:19 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

We do have to keep in mind Europe is easier to operate from these markets than Asia, as there is more demand. I do think mid-sized market TPAC will happen, but outside of AUS, I don’t think the business case is there quite yet.


Yes Europe is easier, but that doesn't change whether airport authorities believe they are close to a nonstop flight announcement

On the Austin part, maybe I'm being dense, but Austin seems to lean more towards Europe than Asia compared to the BNA & IND areas with the exception of the large Samsung operation. Furthermore, the AUS-Asia market hasn't been growing as much as you might think: https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news ... s_headline


The article you cited specifically stated 2021 is a good bet for AUS TPAC service, plus, the top unserved long haul destinations are Tokyo and Seoul, even ahead of Paris. Austin’s large “Silicon Valley-esqe” tech presence and larger catchment area make it ripe for an Asian nonstop.

Anyway, I can’t speak for IND, but in BNA’s case, I don’t think we are quite there yet. Outside of Bridgestone and Nissan, what business demand is there? Plus, my indication from the latest master plan meetings seemed to be the runway extension needed to do Asia nonstops is at least 5 years away, further complicating the process.


The 2021 line is what I mentioned when I first explained why I thought Asia service wasn't far away
Midwestindy wrote:
Back on the Asia flight talk, AUS is claiming they expect an Asia nonstop flight to take off in 2021, meaning a likely announcement in 2020.
https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news ... ional.html

Given that, I can't imagine IND is far behind AUS in terms of landing a TPAC flight, if they are at all.


Having Tokyo & Seoul ahead of Paris shouldn't be surprising, Paris is surprisingly not a large O&D market for most midsized cities, Frankfurt and London are almost always larger except in summer.

The tech presence doesn't automatically lend itself to service to Asia, just like Indiana's large automative sector doesn't warrant IND having service to Germany. There should be identifiable ties between companies not industries, which I believe IND has.

I do think AUS is a good candidate for TPAC service, but not leaps and bounds ahead of some others.

ThaneC wrote:
With Chicago ORD only 177 miles away, I don’t see how a mid-size airport like IND could ever think that a nonstop flight to Asia was realistic and viable. The same thing applies to so many destinations that are already very well-served via Chicago.

The same thing was said about IND-SFO, IND-SEA, IND-Europe, e.t.c
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:49 pm

From the AA schedule March update last night:
IND-NYC remains all E175, IND-MIA maintains the B738
IND-ORD down to 7x daily
IND-LAX/PHX remain 2x daily, looks as though IND-PHX won't get any extra frequencies this year because of the aforementioned 6th flight to DFW

AA's increase to MIA may be enough to keep NK away, especially if WN/G4's increases to FLL & PBI are factored in.

Lastly IND looks like it will come up short of 10 million this year, by likely around 400k passengers. As far as I can see, WN will likely fall to around 2.8M, DL will likely rise to around 2.5M, AA will stay at around 2.1M, UA at 1.15M, and G4 at 630K.
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beerbus
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:58 pm

Midwestindy wrote:

10 years is a verrrry long time, I think we'll definitely see TPAC flights from midsized markets before 2025.

AUS, IND, BNA, and e.t.c rank very high in terms of largest unserved asia markets, and this also isn't accounting for IND, BNA, and AUS bleed to ORD, ATL, and IAH.

FWIW, I'm hearing the same rhetoric from the airports and local communities as the 1-2 years before these midsized airports landed TATL flights. I think Corporate demand is there (or close to it), it is a matter of getting the right service for the market size.


I don't anticipate IND Asia service.

A daily flight would take two frames capable of flying N/S to Asia. Two frames of that capability is a significant capital investment.

IND is a thin market. IMHO there is not enough Business Class traffic to Asia to justify the investment in two aircraft for this size opportunity.

A route planner will rank the return on investmentment in the use of two TPAC frames vs other TPAC opportunities. A hub or much larger market will rank higher.

A carrier like DL or UA will add TPAC flights from DTW, SFO, or ORD before IND. UA added flights to skinny China markets via subsidy.

They all ended when the subsidies ended.

IND to Asia Is a very similar scenario.
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:14 pm

To put it in perspective: PHL has no Asia service. BOS only has two flights (ICN, NRT). SLC (Delta hub) has no Asia service. PHX (AA hub) has no Asia service.
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:37 pm

beerbus wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

10 years is a verrrry long time, I think we'll definitely see TPAC flights from midsized markets before 2025.

AUS, IND, BNA, and e.t.c rank very high in terms of largest unserved asia markets, and this also isn't accounting for IND, BNA, and AUS bleed to ORD, ATL, and IAH.

FWIW, I'm hearing the same rhetoric from the airports and local communities as the 1-2 years before these midsized airports landed TATL flights. I think Corporate demand is there (or close to it), it is a matter of getting the right service for the market size.


I don't anticipate IND Asia service.

A daily flight would take two frames capable of flying N/S to Asia. Two frames of that capability is a significant capital investment.

IND is a thin market. IMHO there is not enough Business Class traffic to Asia to justify the investment in two aircraft for this size opportunity.

A route planner will rank the return on investmentment in the use of two TPAC frames vs other TPAC opportunities. A hub or much larger market will rank higher.

A carrier like DL or UA will add TPAC flights from DTW, SFO, or ORD before IND. UA added flights to skinny China markets via subsidy.

They all ended when the subsidies ended.

IND to Asia Is a very similar scenario.


3x weekly, not daily

kavok wrote:
To put it in perspective: PHL has no Asia service. BOS only has two flights (ICN, NRT). SLC (Delta hub) has no Asia service. PHX (AA hub) has no Asia service.


BOS has PEK, NRT, PVG, and ICN, they have a pretty strong Asian network.

I've seen some of the recent numbers (for some reason I can't find them now), PHL is not a large Asian market compared to IND, if not similar in size, SLC is the same as PHL except there was service a few years back that was dropped after the Japan tsunami, spike in fuel prices, and DL's pull back from Tokyo. PHX would have service if not for AA's attention being on LAX, as mentioned publicly. SLC & PHX were both mentioned as places Skyteam & Oneworld would like to Asia flights in the next couple years.

IND has the differentiator of state incentives in place to mitigate the upfront cost of such an expensive flight.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:44 pm

If IND wants TPAC service, it better hope on one of the Chinese carriers making the plunge. None of the domestic 3 are launching TPAC service outside of their major hubs (with PDX being a special case I guess). For their JV partners, they are still only going after the major Asian population centers. HND slots are allocated now and I doubt NRT service is coming outside of the top 3 or 4 TPAC airports. Only the Chinese carriers seem to be willing to try new routes that offer subsidies. And most of them do seem to be operating with subsidies.
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:39 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
beerbus wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

10 years is a verrrry long time, I think we'll definitely see TPAC flights from midsized markets before 2025.

AUS, IND, BNA, and e.t.c rank very high in terms of largest unserved asia markets, and this also isn't accounting for IND, BNA, and AUS bleed to ORD, ATL, and IAH.

FWIW, I'm hearing the same rhetoric from the airports and local communities as the 1-2 years before these midsized airports landed TATL flights. I think Corporate demand is there (or close to it), it is a matter of getting the right service for the market size.


I don't anticipate IND Asia service.

A daily flight would take two frames capable of flying N/S to Asia. Two frames of that capability is a significant capital investment.

IND is a thin market. IMHO there is not enough Business Class traffic to Asia to justify the investment in two aircraft for this size opportunity.

A route planner will rank the return on investmentment in the use of two TPAC frames vs other TPAC opportunities. A hub or much larger market will rank higher.

A carrier like DL or UA will add TPAC flights from DTW, SFO, or ORD before IND. UA added flights to skinny China markets via subsidy.

They all ended when the subsidies ended.

IND to Asia Is a very similar scenario.


3x weekly, not daily

kavok wrote:
To put it in perspective: PHL has no Asia service. BOS only has two flights (ICN, NRT). SLC (Delta hub) has no Asia service. PHX (AA hub) has no Asia service.


BOS has PEK, NRT, PVG, and ICN, they have a pretty strong Asian network.

I've seen some of the recent numbers (for some reason I can't find them now), PHL is not a large Asian market compared to IND, if not similar in size, SLC is the same as PHL except there was service a few years back that was dropped after the Japan tsunami, spike in fuel prices, and DL's pull back from Tokyo. PHX would have service if not for AA's attention being on LAX, as mentioned publicly. SLC & PHX were both mentioned as places Skyteam & Oneworld would like to Asia flights in the next couple years.

IND has the differentiator of state incentives in place to mitigate the upfront cost of such an expensive flight.


Correct on my BOS error, as I forgot about the Chinese carriers. That being said, the point is that TPAC service is very limited nationwide, including some key hubs.

Any TPAC service would obviously require a significant subsidy, and (as others mentioned) it would almost certainly have to be an Asia based carrier. Further, the Chinese carriers would not be the best for many IND based business travelers because 1) Any connection in China requires significant backtracking to the key markets of Japan and Korea, and 2) China is not an easy place to connect anyway due to Visa and other political implications. So that leaves basically ICN or NRT.
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:27 pm

As someone who has connected at pek multiple times, the part about China being more difficult to connect is complete bs.
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:30 pm

kavok wrote:
1)Any connection in China requires significant backtracking to the key markets of Japan and Korea, and 2) China is not an easy place to connect anyway due to Visa and other political implications. So that leaves basically ICN or NRT.


These are excellent points. I also might add the lack of an open skies agreement between the US and China makes getting flights difficult. And due to slot restrictions at HND, indeed this basically leaves either JL/NH to NRT or KE to ICN as the only options for secondary US TPAC flights. While places such as IND and BNA do have some significant and growing ties to Japan/Asia, I don't think the business case is quite there yet. However, a decade or so from now, it should be a different story.

One thing that IND does have on BNA is they already have a 11,000+ ft N/S runway (more like NE/SW) needed for an Asia flight. BNA needs to extend one of it's N/S runways from 8,000 to 12,000 ft before being able to accommodate TPAC flights. They have plans to do so in the latest master plan, but the indication I got from the last master plan meeting was it is at least 5 years away before construction even begins.
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:35 am

kavok wrote:
That being said, the point is that TPAC service is very limited nationwide, including some key hubs.


While this is true, I don't think it is entirely due to the difficulty of making such a flight work. I'd say that much of the attention from the US side has also been on additional European routes.

kavok wrote:
Any TPAC service would obviously require a significant subsidy, and (as others mentioned) it would almost certainly have to be an Asia based carrier. Further, the Chinese carriers would not be the best for many IND based business travelers because 1) Any connection in China requires significant backtracking to the key markets of Japan and Korea, and 2) China is not an easy place to connect anyway due to Visa and other political implications. So that leaves basically ICN or NRT.


JAL, ANA, or KE aren't bad options, other than the fact that NRT is so far from the city.

Any Asian flight from IND needs to have easy access to Japan though. While the IND-Asia market is more diverse, the Asia-IND side is close to 50% made up of TYO, NGO, & ITM

While Chinese carriers might have more of the stomach for a flight like this, excluding PEK & PVG, there just isn't much demand to interior cities in China from IND, outside of a few weeks a year when Chinese students are coming or going from Indiana colleges. The US China market is weak anyway right now, and looks like it could be for the next couple years, so for that reason it would make sense to focus elsewhere.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:17 am

Pretty sure Indy already has scheduled TPAC service from Osaka ;)
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:37 pm

Moosefire wrote:
Pretty sure Indy already has scheduled TPAC service from Osaka ;)


That's an arrival only on FedEx.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:58 pm

From BOS JL flys daily to NRT 789, HU flys BOS to PEK and PVG with 788 and 789'S, CX flys daily BOS HKG with 77W'S and KE flys BOS-ICN with 789'S.
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:23 pm

zackary747 wrote:
Moosefire wrote:
Pretty sure Indy already has scheduled TPAC service from Osaka ;)


That's an arrival only on FedEx.


Agreed! Just saying there is service from Indy’s largest airline.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:27 pm

tphuang wrote:
If IND wants TPAC service, it better hope on one of the Chinese carriers making the plunge. None of the domestic 3 are launching TPAC service outside of their major hubs (with PDX being a special case I guess). For their JV partners, they are still only going after the major Asian population centers. HND slots are allocated now and I doubt NRT service is coming outside of the top 3 or 4 TPAC airports.


I don't know about this, most of the major gateways are well served to Japan at least (especially once the new HND flights begin):

Image

The growth in the market Japanese-US market appears to be going to Texas, Tenneseee, Indiana, and a couple other states. And based on DOT filings of new service to Japan, they list the IND-Japan market as nearly doubling in the past 3 years (again not including leakage to ORD or broken trips).

Image

Who knows maybe TPAC service is a decade or two away, but I think it is a good discussion to be had in terms of predicting where the market could be heading in the future.
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N292UX
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:58 pm

I go to school in Indianapolis, and use IND a lot, and I honestly have no clue how IND would be able to support an TPAC flight, even if it's less than daily. There's no way the O&D is anywhere close to supporting one. I do think IND could certainly support a second a TATL flight to somewhere like LHR/AMS/DUB, plus AM/DL to MEX on an Embraer, but not much more.

There's definitely some room for domestic expansion to places like AUS, MEM, MKE, BNA, MSY, ORF, PIT, PDX, SAN, SJC, STL, and PBI, plus a few others. Obviously WN isn't adding routes to most of those places, and I really only see them adding BNA, SJC, and STL. DL would probably only add AUS, BNA, and MAYBE PIT, if they actually grow those markets as focus cities. If Midwest Express actually gets off the ground and is able to grow, I can see them adding MKE. I know AA says they aren't interested in adding p2p routes, yet they're adding a bunch of them out of BOS right now. I honestly see them being the ones to add MEM if the demand is there. AS may be able to add PDX on a seasonal basis or something. I could see G4 adding/growing MSY and ORF in the future. F9 is F9 so if their dartboard ever hits IND, there may be service to a few random cities for 1/2 seasons. I don't think B6 is going to come to IND for a little while.
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:41 am

N292UX wrote:
I go to school in Indianapolis, and use IND a lot, and I honestly have no clue how IND would be able to support an TPAC flight, even if it's less than daily. There's no way the O&D is anywhere close to supporting one. I do think IND could certainly support a second a TATL flight to somewhere like LHR/AMS/DUB, plus AM/DL to MEX on an Embraer, but not much more.


Indianapolis is deceiving, as the Asian investment/population in the Indianapolis area is in the surrounding areas like Lafayette (Subaru), Columbus (Toyota Industries), Terre Haute (Sony), e.t.c. Whereas the European investment in the Indianapolis area is in the actual city, or an adjacent suburb.

Therefore, a lot of the demand to Asia is lost as it doesn't make sense to drive to IND from some of these places, when you are going to have to connect in ORD anyway or when airlines/shuttle companies offer frequent free/cheap shuttles directly to O'hare. Indianapolis to Europe is impacted slightly by this, but that has mostly gone away with the CDG flight.

A second TATL seems to definitely be viable seasonally, with the loads over the summer and 650+ PDEW, if an airline were to add IND-LON over the summer I believe it would be viable.

IND-MEX is on the way, but after that Central/South America will be well served outside of the beach markets.

N292UX wrote:
There's definitely some room for domestic expansion to places like AUS, MEM, MKE, BNA, MSY, ORF, PIT, PDX, SAN, SJC, STL, and PBI, plus a few others. Obviously WN isn't adding routes to most of those places, and I really only see them adding BNA, SJC, and STL. DL would probably only add AUS, BNA, and MAYBE PIT, if they actually grow those markets as focus cities. If Midwest Express actually gets off the ground and is able to grow, I can see them adding MKE. I know AA says they aren't interested in adding p2p routes, yet they're adding a bunch of them out of BOS right now. I honestly see them being the ones to add MEM if the demand is there. AS may be able to add PDX on a seasonal basis or something. I could see G4 adding/growing MSY and ORF in the future. F9 is F9 so if their dartboard ever hits IND, there may be service to a few random cities for 1/2 seasons. I don't think B6 is going to come to IND for a little while.


Why do you see AA as being the ones to add IND-MEM? FWIW, Contour Airlines recently applied for service from IND-Memphis, and from what I hear if that gets approved they are interested in branching out from other markets in IND.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:53 am

Midwestindy wrote:
N292UX wrote:
I go to school in Indianapolis, and use IND a lot, and I honestly have no clue how IND would be able to support an TPAC flight, even if it's less than daily. There's no way the O&D is anywhere close to supporting one. I do think IND could certainly support a second a TATL flight to somewhere like LHR/AMS/DUB, plus AM/DL to MEX on an Embraer, but not much more.


Indianapolis is deceiving, as the Asian investment/population in the Indianapolis area is in the surrounding areas like Lafayette (Subaru), Columbus (Toyota Industries), Terre Haute (Sony), e.t.c. Whereas the European investment in the Indianapolis area is in the actual city, or an adjacent suburb.

Therefore, a lot of the demand to Asia is lost as it doesn't make sense to drive to IND from some of these places, when you are going to have to connect in ORD anyway or when airlines/shuttle companies offer frequent free/cheap shuttles directly to O'hare. Indianapolis to Europe is impacted slightly by this, but that has mostly gone away with the CDG flight.

A second TATL seems to definitely be viable seasonally, with the loads over the summer and 650+ PDEW, if an airline were to add IND-LON over the summer I believe it would be viable.

IND-MEX is on the way, but after that Central/South America will be well served outside of the beach markets.

N292UX wrote:
There's definitely some room for domestic expansion to places like AUS, MEM, MKE, BNA, MSY, ORF, PIT, PDX, SAN, SJC, STL, and PBI, plus a few others. Obviously WN isn't adding routes to most of those places, and I really only see them adding BNA, SJC, and STL. DL would probably only add AUS, BNA, and MAYBE PIT, if they actually grow those markets as focus cities. If Midwest Express actually gets off the ground and is able to grow, I can see them adding MKE. I know AA says they aren't interested in adding p2p routes, yet they're adding a bunch of them out of BOS right now. I honestly see them being the ones to add MEM if the demand is there. AS may be able to add PDX on a seasonal basis or something. I could see G4 adding/growing MSY and ORF in the future. F9 is F9 so if their dartboard ever hits IND, there may be service to a few random cities for 1/2 seasons. I don't think B6 is going to come to IND for a little while.


Why do you see AA as being the ones to add IND-MEM? FWIW, Contour Airlines recently applied for service from IND-Memphis, and from what I hear if that gets approved they are interested in branching out from other markets in IND.


What do you mean they filed to fly IND-MEM? Is there a link to this filing?
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:23 am

zackary747 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
N292UX wrote:
I go to school in Indianapolis, and use IND a lot, and I honestly have no clue how IND would be able to support an TPAC flight, even if it's less than daily. There's no way the O&D is anywhere close to supporting one. I do think IND could certainly support a second a TATL flight to somewhere like LHR/AMS/DUB, plus AM/DL to MEX on an Embraer, but not much more.


Indianapolis is deceiving, as the Asian investment/population in the Indianapolis area is in the surrounding areas like Lafayette (Subaru), Columbus (Toyota Industries), Terre Haute (Sony), e.t.c. Whereas the European investment in the Indianapolis area is in the actual city, or an adjacent suburb.

Therefore, a lot of the demand to Asia is lost as it doesn't make sense to drive to IND from some of these places, when you are going to have to connect in ORD anyway or when airlines/shuttle companies offer frequent free/cheap shuttles directly to O'hare. Indianapolis to Europe is impacted slightly by this, but that has mostly gone away with the CDG flight.

A second TATL seems to definitely be viable seasonally, with the loads over the summer and 650+ PDEW, if an airline were to add IND-LON over the summer I believe it would be viable.

IND-MEX is on the way, but after that Central/South America will be well served outside of the beach markets.

N292UX wrote:
There's definitely some room for domestic expansion to places like AUS, MEM, MKE, BNA, MSY, ORF, PIT, PDX, SAN, SJC, STL, and PBI, plus a few others. Obviously WN isn't adding routes to most of those places, and I really only see them adding BNA, SJC, and STL. DL would probably only add AUS, BNA, and MAYBE PIT, if they actually grow those markets as focus cities. If Midwest Express actually gets off the ground and is able to grow, I can see them adding MKE. I know AA says they aren't interested in adding p2p routes, yet they're adding a bunch of them out of BOS right now. I honestly see them being the ones to add MEM if the demand is there. AS may be able to add PDX on a seasonal basis or something. I could see G4 adding/growing MSY and ORF in the future. F9 is F9 so if their dartboard ever hits IND, there may be service to a few random cities for 1/2 seasons. I don't think B6 is going to come to IND for a little while.


Why do you see AA as being the ones to add IND-MEM? FWIW, Contour Airlines recently applied for service from IND-Memphis, and from what I hear if that gets approved they are interested in branching out from other markets in IND.


What do you mean they filed to fly IND-MEM? Is there a link to this filing?

Technically it was Millington-Memphis airport, one of the surrounding airports on the northside of the city, they filed for a Small Community Air Service Development Program grant in July with the DOT (along with several dozen other airports across the country)

https://www.regulations.gov/document?D= ... -0071-0034
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:28 am

Midwestindy wrote:
A second TATL seems to definitely be viable seasonally, with the loads over the summer and 650+ PDEW, if an airline were to add IND-LON over the summer I believe it would be viable.


Interesting enough I know a couple markets over 650 PDEW to Europe with no TATL flights. One that is way over 650. Just shows how far being at an airport that has incentive money help can go.
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:43 am

And money in the bank to do it!!!!
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:04 am

IND-MEX is on the way?
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:53 am

ncflyer wrote:
IND-MEX is on the way?


It's on the airports 2 year objective list, and in one of the recent board meetings they mentioned the market was ~40 PDEW but they are being held up by the slot situation at the airport.

Jshank83 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
A second TATL seems to definitely be viable seasonally, with the loads over the summer and 650+ PDEW, if an airline were to add IND-LON over the summer I believe it would be viable.


Interesting enough I know a couple markets over 650 PDEW to Europe with no TATL flights. One that is way over 650. Just shows how far being at an airport that has incentive money help can go.


More about a city/state rather than an airport, airports don't have much leeway for incentives. IND is in a very unique position to have an entire state 100% behind pushing for more air service at one airport.
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Jshank83
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:28 am

Midwestindy wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
IND-MEX is on the way?


It's on the airports 2 year objective list, and in one of the recent board meetings they mentioned the market was ~40 PDEW but they are being held up by the slot situation at the airport.

Jshank83 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
A second TATL seems to definitely be viable seasonally, with the loads over the summer and 650+ PDEW, if an airline were to add IND-LON over the summer I believe it would be viable.


Interesting enough I know a couple markets over 650 PDEW to Europe with no TATL flights. One that is way over 650. Just shows how far being at an airport that has incentive money help can go.


More about a city/state rather than an airport, airports don't have much leeway for incentives. IND is in a very unique position to have an entire state 100% behind pushing for more air service at one airport.


Agree with that, I could have been more specific. I just meant incentive money being used for it, whatever the source. Other states aren’t as helpful to their airports, but like you said it helps just having one main one in the capital city.
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:43 am

There’s a certain irony that I assume Hoosiers recognize, given Indiana political leanings, that there’s a willingness to use government subsidies for private enterprise. . .if MEX is on the way with 40 PDEW—- wowza. That will be some kind of subsidy, it’s not like literally every important destination in Latin and South America can’t already be reached one stop via MIA IAH ATL.
 
ibthebigd
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:46 am

I think YUL should be the number one priority for International. I think it would be a great route to announce at Routes America.

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Bluegrass60
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:58 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
IND-MEX is on the way?


It's on the airports 2 year objective list, and in one of the recent board meetings they mentioned the market was ~40 PDEW but they are being held up by the slot situation at the airport.

Jshank83 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
A second TATL seems to definitely be viable seasonally, with the loads over the summer and 650+ PDEW, if an airline were to add IND-LON over the summer I believe it would be viable.


Interesting enough I know a couple markets over 650 PDEW to Europe with no TATL flights. One that is way over 650. Just shows how far being at an airport that has incentive money help can go.


More about a city/state rather than an airport, airports don't have much leeway for incentives. IND is in a very unique position to have an entire state 100% behind pushing for more air service at one airport.


"Curious if 100% of the state understands that some their tax money is going to fund current and potential subsidies for air service at IND. Why would Indiana residents of Cinci Metro or Chicagoland or Louisville Metro want any of their Indiana state taxes go to fund air service at an airport they rarely or never use?; to fund an airport that does not really drive economic growth in their part of Indiana? Do residents of FWA, EVV, SBB or Gary also support their taxes supporting air service dev at IND?....Sorta seems like the same mentality that allowed state support of various other sports facilities in Indy all tied to "Hoosier Pride". "
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:19 pm

ncflyer wrote:
There’s a certain irony that I assume Hoosiers recognize, given Indiana political leanings, that there’s a willingness to use government subsidies for private enterprise. . .if MEX is on the way with 40 PDEW—- wowza. That will be some kind of subsidy, it’s not like literally every important destination in Latin and South America can’t already be reached one stop via MIA IAH ATL.


Maybe there is some irony, but I don't know a single state that doesn't give incentive money to private enterprises.

40 PDEW is quite a bit of passengers, considering it would most likely be run on a RJ and it is quite a large hub. Wouldn't expect a large incentive for that kind of service, especially if it would be less than daily.

Bluegrass60 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
IND-MEX is on the way?


It's on the airports 2 year objective list, and in one of the recent board meetings they mentioned the market was ~40 PDEW but they are being held up by the slot situation at the airport.

Jshank83 wrote:

Interesting enough I know a couple markets over 650 PDEW to Europe with no TATL flights. One that is way over 650. Just shows how far being at an airport that has incentive money help can go.


More about a city/state rather than an airport, airports don't have much leeway for incentives. IND is in a very unique position to have an entire state 100% behind pushing for more air service at one airport.


"Curious if 100% of the state understands that some their tax money is going to fund current and potential subsidies for air service at IND. Why would Indiana residents of Cinci Metro or Chicagoland or Louisville Metro want any of their Indiana state taxes go to fund air service at an airport they rarely or never use?; to fund an airport that does not really drive economic growth in their part of Indiana? Do residents of FWA, EVV, SBB or Gary also support their taxes supporting air service dev at IND?....Sorta seems like the same mentality that allowed state support of various other sports facilities in Indy all tied to "Hoosier Pride". "


1. They created a new tax for these incentives(and some other programs), on heavy duty pick up trucks that are just passing through the state, so that tax does not harm any Indiana taxpayer.
2. FWA, EVV, and SBN are eligible to receive money as well, in fact SBN has already, however the majority of $$ will go to IND as it is the largest by a wide margin.

ibthebigd wrote:
I think YUL should be the number one priority for International. I think it would be a great route to announce at Routes America.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I think the problem is the YUL market isn't that large from IND, although I may look into that again to see any updated numbers
Last edited by Midwestindy on Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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indygs
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:22 pm

Bluegrass60 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
IND-MEX is on the way?


It's on the airports 2 year objective list, and in one of the recent board meetings they mentioned the market was ~40 PDEW but they are being held up by the slot situation at the airport.

Jshank83 wrote:

Interesting enough I know a couple markets over 650 PDEW to Europe with no TATL flights. One that is way over 650. Just shows how far being at an airport that has incentive money help can go.


More about a city/state rather than an airport, airports don't have much leeway for incentives. IND is in a very unique position to have an entire state 100% behind pushing for more air service at one airport.


"Curious if 100% of the state understands that some their tax money is going to fund current and potential subsidies for air service at IND. Why would Indiana residents of Cinci Metro or Chicagoland or Louisville Metro want any of their Indiana state taxes go to fund air service at an airport they rarely or never use?; to fund an airport that does not really drive economic growth in their part of Indiana? Do residents of FWA, EVV, SBB or Gary also support their taxes supporting air service dev at IND?....Sorta seems like the same mentality that allowed state support of various other sports facilities in Indy all tied to "Hoosier Pride". "


At first glance, I understand what you're saying. In reality, its amazing how much of the state's overall budget is actually financed by tax payers in Central Indiana where an outsized number of residents of the state live and pay taxes. And this story is actually not one that's just true of Indiana, but many states where rural towns have shrunk in number and residents and this population bleed has flocked to the state's larger cities.

All this to say that while an IND-MEX or IND-CDG flight drawing on government incentives may not initially appear to benefit someone living 20 miles outside of EVV, many of the state government's services in those areas are already being subsidized (for lack of a better term) by residents living in larger areas. You can certainly argue the practice of offering incentives for increased flight service to IND (though they clearly helped catalyze CDG) but I do think there's more than Hoosier Pride at play.
 
stlgph
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:35 pm

Yeah, sure, we'll just shove our 40 passengers per day on an RJ and schlep them all the way to INDY .... you know, nevermind the fact that the elevation of MEX is 7,316 feet.
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Jshank83
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:39 pm

MEX route would have to be Aeromexico I assume or DL? Since you would have to push connections (seeing all 40 of those people won't take that flight) and I don't think any of the other airlines hubbed at MEX have RJs.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:24 pm

stlgph wrote:
Yeah, sure, we'll just shove our 40 passengers per day on an RJ and schlep them all the way to INDY .... you know, nevermind the fact that the elevation of MEX is 7,316 feet.


DTW-QRO is operated by an RJ, farther length and similar elevation

Jshank83 wrote:
MEX route would have to be Aeromexico I assume or DL? Since you would have to push connections (seeing all 40 of those people won't take that flight) and I don't think any of the other airlines hubbed at MEX have RJs.


Yes, although you have to also account for market stimulation, which on average is 50%+ (maybe more for an int'l route like this). To put it in context when AS applied for daily SAN-MEX, SAN-MEX was a 38 PDEW market, and they estimated they could capture 57 PDEW with nonstop flights with 100% of the market expected to be local.
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SDFguy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:27 pm

Oh my, not this IND flight to Asia nonsense again!

Weren't you Indy fanboys 100% adamant that the flight was going to be announced by the end of 2018?

Who cares how many Japanese auto factories are in the state. Do you think assembly line workers are traveling to Tokyo???

Who cares how "aggressive" the state of Indiana is with their subsidies. If that is all that mattered, IND would have the flight by now.

This whole conversation is so absurd.
 
stlgph
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:40 pm

QRO is 6,200 feet.

MEX is another thousand.

Try again.


SDFguy wrote:
Oh my, not this IND flight to Asia nonsense again!

Weren't you Indy fanboys 100% adamant that the flight was going to be announced by the end of 2018?

Who cares how many Japanese auto factories are in the state. Do you think assembly line workers are traveling to Tokyo???

Who cares how "aggressive" the state of Indiana is with their subsidies. If that is all that mattered, IND would have the flight by now.

This whole conversation is so absurd.


You're right on all points except the absurdity really set in in say 2016, not 2018.
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COSPN
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:42 pm

I agree the airport does not even run a nonstop bus from the airport to downtown .. (about 9 miles) the city bus goes via Washington street and takes forever.. And some on here want a flight to “Japan “ ?? Let’s start with a nonstop bus to downtown. http://Www.flylax.com

Also rumor is due to lack of the 24 hour bus and INDy labor shortage FedEx new sort building will use all robots. No humans allowed due to safely issues.

I guess there will be a few good jobs created to maintain these Expressbots

How does an robot get an airport ID badge ?
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:13 pm

SDFguy wrote:
Oh my, not this IND flight to Asia nonsense again!

Weren't you Indy fanboys 100% adamant that the flight was going to be announced by the end of 2018?

Who cares how many Japanese auto factories are in the state. Do you think assembly line workers are traveling to Tokyo???

Who cares how "aggressive" the state of Indiana is with their subsidies. If that is all that mattered, IND would have the flight by now.

This whole conversation is so absurd.


Bluegrass....not that this post is worth my time, but you need to rid yourself of the napoleon complex you have toward airports surrounding SDF.

Your posts are all some sort of tear down of IND or BNA, it’s incredibly weird.

COSPN wrote:
I agree the airport does not even run a nonstop bus from the airport to downtown .. (about 9 miles) the city bus goes via Washington street and takes forever.. And some on here want a flight to “Japan “ ?? Let’s start with a nonstop bus to downtown. http://Www.flylax.com

Also rumor is due to lack of the 24 hour bus and INDy labor shortage FedEx new sort building will use all robots. No humans allowed due to safely issues.

I guess there will be a few good jobs created to maintain these Expressbots

How does an robot get an airport ID badge ?


Blueline, BRT linking Downtown to the airport, is already on its way expected 2022/2023

Surprised to hear about Robots though, although the pay for some of those jobs isn’t competitive with other jobs in the area.
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zackary747
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:57 pm

ncflyer wrote:
There’s a certain irony that I assume Hoosiers recognize, given Indiana political leanings, that there’s a willingness to use government subsidies for private enterprise. . .if MEX is on the way with 40 PDEW—- wowza. That will be some kind of subsidy, it’s not like literally every important destination in Latin and South America can’t already be reached one stop via MIA IAH ATL.


The state of Indiana has put down 25 million dollars for international flights. Pretty big chunk of change there. The airport and state still feel that connections to Central and South America are more sufficient in MEX or otherwise they wouldn't be going after it and investing money into it.
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Bluegrass60
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:50 pm

Bluegrass....not that this post is worth my time, but you need to rid yourself of the napoleon complex you have toward airports surrounding SDF.

Your posts are all some sort of tear down of IND or BNA, it’s incredibly weird.

"Thanks Midwest Indy...aka the Grand Puba of Airliners.net. Your posts and you act like you are some sort of high paid consultant for IND. You would have people believe that IND is on the verge of displacing ORD, DTW and MSP as the defacto preferred airport of the Midwest. I do not tear down IND or BNA. You however tear down anyone or anything that does not share your grandiose visions of IND and/or supposed consultant-like knowledge of airlines/airports in general. Please send your CV to Boyd. LOL
 
COSPN
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:24 pm

I heard FedEx raised the pay by $3 an hour but not sure if it is just for Christmas rush.. does SDF have any robots working for UPS ? It will be fun to see how this new sort building develops. The blue line is good news it’s route will change from the old bus. IND to FedEx then Highschool road to Washington street should save 12 mins. And provide a way to work for the human FeDEx workers
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:39 pm

Bluegrass60 wrote:
Thanks Midwest Indy...aka the Grand Puba of Airliners.net. Your posts and you act like you are some sort of high paid consultant for IND.


Glad my posts look that professional to you, I must not be doing a good job hiding what industry I work in.

COSPN wrote:
I heard FedEx raised the pay by $3 an hour but not sure if it is just for Christmas rush.. does SDF have any robots working for UPS ? It will be fun to see how this new sort building develops. The blue line is good news it’s route will change from the old bus. IND to FedEx then Highschool road to Washington street should save 12 mins. And provide a way to work for the human FeDEx workers


I hope they are investing in more robotic technology and more administrative roles rather than package handling and support positions. There are already so many other similar roles around the airport, and given how low unemployment is, I think it makes sense to focus on more automation.
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Bluegrass60
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:18 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Bluegrass60 wrote:
Thanks Midwest Indy...aka the Grand Puba of Airliners.net. Your posts and you act like you are some sort of high paid consultant for IND.


Glad my posts look that professional to you, I must not be doing a good job hiding what industry I work in.

"All due respect...but...think Boyd probably has a better view of what is going on in the world of commercial aviation. Good luck!"
 
kindeham
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:12 am

Bluegrass60 wrote:

"All due respect...but...think Boyd probably has a better view of what is going on in the world of commercial aviation. Good luck!"


Midwestindy is easily the most knowledgeable and factual person I have ever seen on A.net. His post are consistantly fact based and backed up by documentation. I have never seen him be a cheerleader or attempt to make IND look like something it isn't. If he posts it or says it you better be listening because it's most likely right. If you don't appreciate quality subsmissions like his I suggest heading back over to SDF or whatever corner you drug yourself out of to come insult people here.
 
Bluegrass60
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:01 pm

kindeham wrote:
Bluegrass60 wrote:

"All due respect...but...think Boyd probably has a better view of what is going on in the world of commercial aviation. Good luck!"


Midwestindy is easily the most knowledgeable and factual person I have ever seen on A.net. His post are consistantly fact based and backed up by documentation. I have never seen him be a cheerleader or attempt to make IND look like something it isn't. If he posts it or says it you better be listening because it's most likely right. If you don't appreciate quality subsmissions like his I suggest heading back over to SDF or whatever corner you drug yourself out of to come insult people here.


"I stand by my posts. Midwest started the insults not me"
 
stlgph
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:02 pm

Now....that's hilarious. Thanks
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zackary747
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:08 pm

COSPN wrote:
I heard FedEx raised the pay by $3 an hour but not sure if it is just for Christmas rush.. does SDF have any robots working for UPS ? It will be fun to see how this new sort building develops. The blue line is good news it’s route will change from the old bus. IND to FedEx then Highschool road to Washington street should save 12 mins. And provide a way to work for the human FeDEx workers


Yeah, that blue line will do multiple things out near the airport. Help passengers get to the airport with rapid transit, FedEx employees as you mentioned, and of course the Infosys people as well. I was talking to IndyGo during the opening of the Red Line and they said Infosys and FedEx have been a huge help in getting the ball rolling for the Blue Line.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:13 pm

Did a little digging this morning about the FedEx expansion, after there was mention of fewer jobs:

Looks like sometime this summer, FedEx submitted this proposal to the Indiana Economic Development Corporation:

The original discussion from the IBJ was that FX was planning to bring 800 new jobs, although this says 288 now. It could be 288 in Phase 1, and the rest in 2023, but it is quite hard to follow all the FX info since the projects are developing so quickly and behind the scenes.
Image

This slide was also in the same meeting
Image
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airboss787
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:29 pm

Bluegrass60 wrote:
"Thanks Midwest Indy...aka the Grand Puba of Airliners.net. Your posts and you act like you are some sort of high paid consultant for IND. You would have people believe that IND is on the verge of displacing ORD, DTW and MSP as the defacto preferred airport of the Midwest. I do not tear down IND or BNA. You however tear down anyone or anything that does not share your grandiose visions of IND and/or supposed consultant-like knowledge of airlines/airports in general. Please send your CV to Boyd. LOL


Actually, I am pretty sure nobody thinks IND is going to displace ORD, DTW and MSP. People in IND know where they stand and all they care about is getting more flights than there already are and making the airport even greater than it already is. Competition is more with STL, CVG, CLE among others. You have consistently come to this thread and just picked fights. I would be happy if Midwestindy is a high paid consultant for IND since that will mean even more factual information from him/her as has been the case till now. He/she has provided excellent information till now and his/her posts have been extremely reliable and consistently high quality. I suggest you move over to SDF and not contaminate this extremely peaceful and informative thread.

Bluegrass60 wrote:
kindeham wrote:
Bluegrass60 wrote:

"All due respect...but...think Boyd probably has a better view of what is going on in the world of commercial aviation. Good luck!"


Midwestindy is easily the most knowledgeable and factual person I have ever seen on A.net. His post are consistantly fact based and backed up by documentation. I have never seen him be a cheerleader or attempt to make IND look like something it isn't. If he posts it or says it you better be listening because it's most likely right. If you don't appreciate quality subsmissions like his I suggest heading back over to SDF or whatever corner you drug yourself out of to come insult people here.


"I stand by my posts. Midwest started the insults not me"


If you are getting "insulted" please don't hijack these threads or post anything that is way off-topic. If you come here creating a scene, you will be requested out. Don't be ridiculous.
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Bluegrass60
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:27 pm

Airboss....I really don't get you folks. Midwest posted "IND is in a very unique position to have an entire state 100% behind pushing for more air service at one airport."

My response ""Curious if 100% of the state understands that some their tax money is going to fund current and potential subsidies for air service at IND. Why would Indiana residents of Cinci Metro or Chicagoland or Louisville Metro want any of their Indiana state taxes go to fund air service at an airport they rarely or never use?; to fund an airport that does not really drive economic growth in their part of Indiana? Do residents of FWA, EVV, SBB or Gary also support their taxes supporting air service dev at IND?....Sorta seems like the same mentality that allowed state support of various other sports facilities in Indy all tied to "Hoosier Pride". "

Midwest responded: "Bluegrass....not that this post is worth my time, but you need to rid yourself of the napoleon complex you have toward airports surrounding SDF. Your posts are all some sort of tear down of IND or BNA, it’s incredibly weird."

Huh? WTF did I say to offend?
 
ThaneC
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:46 pm

I sincerely wish that both Midwestindy and Bluegrass60 would cease the ongoing boosterism and cheerleading posts for their respective cities. Both IND and SDF are good mid-sized airports, especially for cargo. Please put down the Pom Poms, they make you both look ridiculous.
 
Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:18 pm

ThaneC wrote:
I sincerely wish that both Midwestindy and Bluegrass60 would cease the ongoing boosterism and cheerleading posts for their respective cities. Both IND and SDF are good mid-sized airports, especially for cargo. Please put down the Pom Poms, they make you both look ridiculous.


Nothing Midwestindy has stated is ridiculous. The stupidity and trolling is purely one sided
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air

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