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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue May 28, 2019 1:52 pm

Jake1993P wrote:
Booked on the IND-CDG flight in July! Was cheaper to drive to IND and fly out then fly out of ATL, plus gives me a few days with family on either side of the trip.


Love to hear it
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bluefltspecial
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue May 28, 2019 8:45 pm

Anyone have any info on that B764 charter yesterday GRK-IND-GRK? DL8963/DL8827
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COSPN
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue May 28, 2019 9:05 pm

According to the Indy 500 awards banquet a few hundred men and women were actually sworn in the military on the track.. so I guess this flight will take them back to FT Hood for basic training
 
fedex1
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed May 29, 2019 3:39 am

I know this is a IND thread. . . But I’m reading the Ohio thread, and I truly am asking what keeps CMH from getting service to Europe? Isn’t Indianapolis and Columbus both very equal??
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed May 29, 2019 1:40 pm

State of Indiana spend 5 million for this flight it’s a complicated payout system .. but whatever it got the flight .. looks like Ohio would rather spend the money on fixing the potholes on I- 70 ... both have their arguments
 
kindeham
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed May 29, 2019 3:02 pm

fedex1 wrote:
I know this is a IND thread. . . But I’m reading the Ohio thread, and I truly am asking what keeps CMH from getting service to Europe? Isn’t Indianapolis and Columbus both very equal??


Indy has about 2.5 million more passengers each year. Columbus has no cargo facilities (they are located at Rickenbacker). Indy has a larger international corporate presence. I think that would be most of the reasons.
 
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zackary747
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed May 29, 2019 8:32 pm

fedex1 wrote:
I know this is a IND thread. . . But I’m reading the Ohio thread, and I truly am asking what keeps CMH from getting service to Europe? Isn’t Indianapolis and Columbus both very equal??


While Indy and Columbus are similar in population (Indy metro at 2.01 million, Columbus being 2.07 million) Indy's business climate is just simply stronger. While Columbus is indeed growing their business climate they are still at that oversized college town stage. I think they'll grow out of it in the future tho. A city's population only tells part of the story and at the end of the day I personally believe that the business climate is more important.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed May 29, 2019 10:04 pm

WN's schedule extension is tomorrow morning, probably won't see much action across the board, but this schedule extension seems particularly interesting:
1. The 1st key to watch will be if they keep IND-OAK for November and December, if they decide to drop it there will likely be additional frequencies to PHX+LAS since both PHX and LAS were in the mid 90%'s in terms of LF

2. NK adds RSW and TPA in Mid-November, which is important since this is the first real competition WN has had in either market(sorry F9 and G4) for quite some time. This, in addition to NK's add of MCO earlier this year may cause WN to retreat a bit on IND-Florida which has traditionally been a WN stronghold.

3. WN started IND-CUN in November last year, although I doubt it will return that early again due to low LFs

LFs were quite high last Nov/Dec, so we will see whether WN's capacity is +/- tomorrow
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 2:57 pm

Yikes!

As suspected, WN took a razor to its IND schedule and gave it a nice big trim:
------------------------
YOY changes: 26 daily departures, compared to 33 daily departures last November

Previously known:
Dropped-BOS, EWR

New:
Dropped-CUN, MSY, OAK (a few frequencies left over here and there)
Trimmed-RSW(-1), TPA(-1), LAS(-1)

Only gain was +1 to PHX, and +1 Saturday frequency to MCO
-------------------------
YOY changes: 24 daily departures, compared to 29 daily departures last November

Previously known:
Dropped-BOS, EWR

New:
Dropped-CUN, MSY, OAK (a few frequencies left over here and there)
Trimmed-RSW(-1), TPA(-1)

Only gain was +1 to PHX, and +1 Saturday frequency to MCO

DL will be close to 600-700 more seats than WN in November, and depending how things shake out AA might catch up to WN.

-------
On another note, the PDEW numbers have been updated for Q4 2018
Some areas that appear underserved during Q4 included:
WAS-591 PDEW
TPA-420.5 PDEW
Bay Area-366.5 PDEW
BOS-362.5 PDEW
SAN-184.5 PDEW
AUS-148 PDEW

SAT-94 PDEW
MSY-92.5 PDEW
PDX-86.5 PDEW

Borderline regional airline routes
BDL-55.5 PDEW
ORF-50 PDEW
RIC-41 PDEW
OMA-33 PDEW
MEM-27.5 PDEW-$283.86 average fare might be depressing PDEW a bit
PIT-27 PDEW
GSP-26.5 PDEW
ALB-26.5 PDEW
GSO-24 PDEW
DSM-22 PDEW

Pretty shocking that the airport can't find anyone to fly SAN and AUS daily
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indygs
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 3:17 pm

Wow. I wonder if WN's cuts have anything to do with the persistent shortage in frames they have operating. Given that its so far out, perhaps not, but I just continue to be surprised they think their timings/schedules to particular markets (EWR, DCA, BOS) would actually be convenient for business travelers.

I don't see this happening, but an interesting strategy for an airline like B6 could be to come in and fly BOS, SAN and AUS--the benefit being that as the only daily non-stop option to both SAN and AUS from IND, they could build a base of customers loyal to their offerings. DL would try and run them off IND-BOS, for sure, but I don't see them adding SAN and/or AUS until they've got more A220s on offer.
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 3:26 pm

LAS, TPA, and RSW would be 3 easy easy adds to put back in the system for when/if the Max series returns to the skies, even if not until very late summer.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 3:31 pm

stlgph wrote:
LAS, TPA, and RSW would be 3 easy easy adds to put back in the system for when/if the Max series returns to the skies, even if not until very late summer.


These aren't MAX related, the only schedules that have been adjusted for the MAX's being out are the June/July/early August schedules. WN actually scheduled a decent amount of MAXs in the release from IND

indygs wrote:
Wow. I wonder if WN's cuts have anything to do with the persistent shortage in frames they have operating. Given that its so far out, perhaps not, but I just continue to be surprised they think their timings/schedules to particular markets (EWR, DCA, BOS) would actually be convenient for business travelers.


I guess it doesn't matter now since all 3 are gone(or soon to be). To be fair DCA was out of their control, but once you start cutting your routes to business markets its starts a downward spiral.

At this point their schedules are worthless to me: no NYC, no BOS, 1 midday flight to Chicago, a couple of randomly(exaggeration) timed flights to DAL and HOU, and an on again off again flight to LAX...after that it is a bunch of leisure routes. Pretty interesting that just 2 years ago there was: 2xLGA, 2xBOS, 2xDCA, 2x-3xMDW, e.t.c

I don't see this happening, but an interesting strategy for an airline like B6 could be to come in and fly BOS, SAN and AUS--the benefit being that as the only daily non-stop option to both SAN and AUS from IND, they could build a base of customers loyal to their offerings. DL would try and run them off IND-BOS, for sure, but I don't see them adding SAN and/or AUS until they've got more A220s on offer.[/quote]

AUS and SAN shouldn't be that hard, all you need is an RJ for AUS. And SAN has 180-220+ PDEW year-round. I'd be fine if NK started both, I wouldn't fly them, but they would at least fly it daily and boost PDEW to finally entice another airline to give it a true shot
Last edited by Midwestindy on Thu May 30, 2019 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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zackary747
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 3:35 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Yikes!

As suspected, WN took a razor to its IND schedule and gave it a nice big trim:
------------------------
YOY changes: 26 daily departures, compared to 33 daily departures last November

Previously known:
Dropped-BOS, EWR

New:
Dropped-CUN, MSY, OAK (a few frequencies left over here and there)
Trimmed-RSW(-1), TPA(-1), LAS(-1)

Only gain was +1 to PHX, and +1 Saturday frequency to MCO
-------------------------
YOY changes: 24 daily departures, compared to 29 daily departures last November

Previously known:
Dropped-BOS, EWR

New:
Dropped-CUN, MSY, OAK (a few frequencies left over here and there)
Trimmed-RSW(-1), TPA(-1)

Only gain was +1 to PHX, and +1 Saturday frequency to MCO

DL will be close to 600-700 more seats than WN in November, and depending how things shake out AA might catch up to WN.

-------
On another note, the PDEW numbers have been updated for Q4 2018
Some areas that appear underserved during Q4 included:
WAS-591 PDEW
TPA-420.5 PDEW
Bay Area-366.5 PDEW
BOS-362.5 PDEW
SAN-184.5 PDEW
AUS-148 PDEW

SAT-94 PDEW
MSY-92.5 PDEW
PDX-86.5 PDEW

Borderline regional airline routes
BDL-55.5 PDEW
ORF-50 PDEW
RIC-41 PDEW
OMA-33 PDEW
MEM-27.5 PDEW-$283.86 average fare might be depressing PDEW a bit
PIT-27 PDEW
GSP-26.5 PDEW
ALB-26.5 PDEW
GSO-24 PDEW
DSM-22 PDEW

Pretty shocking that the airport can't find anyone to fly SAN and AUS daily


Are the three dropped markets (CUN, MSY, and OAK) seasonal drops or permanent? I'd be surprised if they don't run those routes at least on a summer/spring basis.
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kbmiflyer
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 3:54 pm

fedex1 wrote:
I know this is a IND thread. . . But I’m reading the Ohio thread, and I truly am asking what keeps CMH from getting service to Europe? Isn’t Indianapolis and Columbus both very equal??


Columbus also has to compete for state dollars with CLE and to a lesser extent CVG. Ohio has three large metro area's, IND is THE big dog in Indiana and has no other airports of its size to compete with. EVV, FWA and SBN aside, IND is really the main airport for a majority of the state of Indiana other than the Louisville and Chicago suburbs.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 3:56 pm

zackary747 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Yikes!

As suspected, WN took a razor to its IND schedule and gave it a nice big trim:
------------------------
YOY changes: 26 daily departures, compared to 33 daily departures last November

Previously known:
Dropped-BOS, EWR

New:
Dropped-CUN, MSY, OAK (a few frequencies left over here and there)
Trimmed-RSW(-1), TPA(-1), LAS(-1)

Only gain was +1 to PHX, and +1 Saturday frequency to MCO
-------------------------
YOY changes: 24 daily departures, compared to 29 daily departures last November

Previously known:
Dropped-BOS, EWR

New:
Dropped-CUN, MSY, OAK (a few frequencies left over here and there)
Trimmed-RSW(-1), TPA(-1)

Only gain was +1 to PHX, and +1 Saturday frequency to MCO

DL will be close to 600-700 more seats than WN in November, and depending how things shake out AA might catch up to WN.

-------
On another note, the PDEW numbers have been updated for Q4 2018
Some areas that appear underserved during Q4 included:
WAS-591 PDEW
TPA-420.5 PDEW
Bay Area-366.5 PDEW
BOS-362.5 PDEW
SAN-184.5 PDEW
AUS-148 PDEW

SAT-94 PDEW
MSY-92.5 PDEW
PDX-86.5 PDEW

Borderline regional airline routes
BDL-55.5 PDEW
ORF-50 PDEW
RIC-41 PDEW
OMA-33 PDEW
MEM-27.5 PDEW-$283.86 average fare might be depressing PDEW a bit
PIT-27 PDEW
GSP-26.5 PDEW
ALB-26.5 PDEW
GSO-24 PDEW
DSM-22 PDEW

Pretty shocking that the airport can't find anyone to fly SAN and AUS daily


Are the three dropped markets (CUN, MSY, and OAK) seasonal drops or permanent? I'd be surprised if they don't run those routes at least on a summer/spring basis.


Pure speculation on my part, but:
I would think CUN would come back in March at least
MSY is up in the air, the yields and LFs aren't that high though so it may not come back
OAK same as MSY, although it probably won't return until at least March
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stlgph
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 4:22 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
stlgph wrote:
LAS, TPA, and RSW would be 3 easy easy adds to put back in the system for when/if the Max series returns to the skies, even if not until very late summer.


These aren't MAX related, the only schedules that have been adjusted for the MAX's being out are the June/July/early August schedules. WN actually scheduled a decent amount of MAXs in the release from IND

indygs wrote:
Wow. I wonder if WN's cuts have anything to do with the persistent shortage in frames they have operating. Given that its so far out, perhaps not, but I just continue to be surprised they think their timings/schedules to particular markets (EWR, DCA, BOS) would actually be convenient for business travelers.


I guess it doesn't matter now since all 3 are gone(or soon to be). To be fair DCA was out of their control, but once you start cutting your routes to business markets its starts a downward spiral.

At this point their schedules are worthless to me: no NYC, no BOS, 1 midday flight to Chicago, a couple of randomly(exaggeration) timed flights to DAL and HOU, and an on again off again flight to LAX...after that it is a bunch of leisure routes. Pretty interesting that just 2 years ago there was: 2xLGA, 2xBOS, 2xDCA, 2x-3xMDW, e.t.c

I don't see this happening, but an interesting strategy for an airline like B6 could be to come in and fly BOS, SAN and AUS--the benefit being that as the only daily non-stop option to both SAN and AUS from IND, they could build a base of customers loyal to their offerings. DL would try and run them off IND-BOS, for sure, but I don't see them adding SAN and/or AUS until they've got more A220s on offer.


AUS and SAN shouldn't be that hard, all you need is an RJ for AUS. And SAN has 180-220+ PDEW year-round. I'd be fine if NK started both, I wouldn't fly them, but they would at least fly it daily and boost PDEW to finally entice another airline to give it a true shot[/quote]

Cmon. Short 34 planes from the Max in addition to the other shortage issues. The system is affected and it shows.

Again. Very easy adds to put back at a later date in the system and sell well given the travel habits of Hoosierland.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
kipfilet
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 4:32 pm

Just booked IND-OPO for September on UA --- it was almost half the price as from STL!!
 
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stl07
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 5:43 pm

kipfilet wrote:
Just booked IND-OPO for September on UA --- it was almost half the price as from STL!!

I fly out of ind all the time to save a boatload of money. The airport is so convenient too that I don't regret the drive.
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 7:23 pm

stlgph wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
stlgph wrote:
LAS, TPA, and RSW would be 3 easy easy adds to put back in the system for when/if the Max series returns to the skies, even if not until very late summer.


These aren't MAX related, the only schedules that have been adjusted for the MAX's being out are the June/July/early August schedules. WN actually scheduled a decent amount of MAXs in the release from IND
Midwestindy wrote:


I guess it doesn't matter now since all 3 are gone(or soon to be). To be fair DCA was out of their control, but once you start cutting your routes to business markets its starts a downward spiral.

At this point their schedules are worthless to me: no NYC, no BOS, 1 midday flight to Chicago, a couple of randomly(exaggeration) timed flights to DAL and HOU, and an on again off again flight to LAX...after that it is a bunch of leisure routes. Pretty interesting that just 2 years ago there was: 2xLGA, 2xBOS, 2xDCA, 2x-3xMDW, e.t.c

I don't see this happening, but an interesting strategy for an airline like B6 could be to come in and fly BOS, SAN and AUS--the benefit being that as the only daily non-stop option to both SAN and AUS from IND, they could build a base of customers loyal to their offerings. DL would try and run them off IND-BOS, for sure, but I don't see them adding SAN and/or AUS until they've got more A220s on offer.


AUS and SAN shouldn't be that hard, all you need is an RJ for AUS. And SAN has 180-220+ PDEW year-round. I'd be fine if NK started both, I wouldn't fly them, but they would at least fly it daily and boost PDEW to finally entice another airline to give it a true shot


Cmon. Short 34 planes from the Max in addition to the other shortage issues. The system is affected and it shows.

Again. Very easy adds to put back at a later date in the system and sell well given the travel habits of Hoosierland.


Overlooking whether or not they are MAX related cuts, it is very telling that WN decided to trim those 3 routes.

3 routes which they dominate in terms of Market share, but the minute another carrier decides to give them some competition they retreat.

Furthermore, if they were really that crunched for aircraft, wouldn't they trim IND-LAX/PHX(which they did this year) rather than IND-RSW/TPA. Especially considering how big RSW & TPA are during the late fall/winter + how much more aircraft time IND-PHX/LAX eat up + the fact that LAX yields are lower that time of year. This leads me to believe it is more of a reaction to NK
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 7:25 pm

kipfilet wrote:
Just booked IND-OPO for September on UA --- it was almost half the price as from STL!!


Interesting, what's the routing?

UA is usually considerably cheaper than any other carrier TATL from IND, I haven't figured out why though.... It helped them be the largest in terms of TATL market share for a while though
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kipfilet
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 9:41 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
kipfilet wrote:
Just booked IND-OPO for September on UA --- it was almost half the price as from STL!!


Interesting, what's the routing?

UA is usually considerably cheaper than any other carrier TATL from IND, I haven't figured out why though.... It helped them be the largest in terms of TATL market share for a while though


IND-EWR-OPO and same for return. It was about $1,500 from STL and $900 from IND.
And it really is something that is specific to IND. Prices from "nearby" airports (ORD, MCI) were similar to STL.
 
kindeham
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 9:51 pm

kipfilet wrote:
IND-EWR-OPO and same for return. It was about $1,500 from STL and $900 from IND.
And it really is something that is specific to IND. Prices from "nearby" airports (ORD, MCI) were similar to STL.


That's interesting! Usual my family when trying to fly to Amsterdam to visit me finds Indy to be insanely high in comparison to ORD. I have to ask...your username screems Dutch? Kipfillet?
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 5:22 pm

Another FedEx announcement, albeit much smaller

https://www.ibj.com/articles/73999-fede ... g-225-jobs

More renderings of part of the expansion, as you can see at the far end of the image there are dozens of aircraft parked on the apron that is currently being constructed:

Image

Sounds like 500 employees will be based out of this new building
https://bgabuilders.com/
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ibthebigd
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:28 pm

Any predictions for the 2nd half of the year?

My guess is nothing major.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
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ilive4planes
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:07 pm

ibthebigd wrote:
Any predictions for the 2nd half of the year?

My guess is nothing major.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Has anybody heard anymore rumors about service, cause in a PDF from a while back it said that there were 2 airlines in the works for IND!!
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:38 pm

ibthebigd wrote:
Any predictions for the 2nd half of the year?

My guess is nothing major.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Biggest news will likely be G4 announcing IND-Mexico, assuming that happens this year

More West Coast is also likely, just don't know the timeline

2019 has been, and will be a slow year due to all sorts of different factors, I think next year there could be some sizable growth.

2018 saw a little bit of overcapacity on some routes, and this year is a bit of the market correcting itself: F9 is down to 3 routes this summer, UA scaled back this year, G4 growth will taper off later this year, and obviously WN's cuts. However, all of those drops won't last forever and 2020 will be more expansionary, considering the demand warrants additional service to BOS, AUS, PHL, WAS, SAN, MSY, and some previously unserved destinations like SAT and PDX.

Next year will also be much better for the airline industry as whole, MAX issues will be fixed, F9 gets tons of new aircraft(IIRC), DL won't be impacted by A220 delays, More substantial fleet growth from G4 compared to this year, and other factors as well which would make growth in IND much easier.

B6, MEX, Canada, and some short haul markets appear to be what's in the cards for the next year or so.

One last thing to note: Routes Americas is in early February, and one of the airlines in attendance usually announces at least one new route from the host city during the Conference

ilive4planes wrote:
ibthebigd wrote:
Any predictions for the 2nd half of the year?

My guess is nothing major.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Has anybody heard anymore rumors about service, cause in a PDF from a while back it said that there were 2 airlines in the works for IND!!


A PDF posted on this thread?
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zackary747
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:19 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
ibthebigd wrote:
Any predictions for the 2nd half of the year?

My guess is nothing major.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Biggest news will likely be G4 announcing IND-Mexico, assuming that happens this year

More West Coast is also likely, just don't know the timeline

2019 has been, and will be a slow year due to all sorts of different factors, I think next year there could be some sizable growth.

2018 saw a little bit of overcapacity on some routes, and this year is a bit of the market correcting itself: F9 is down to 3 routes this summer, UA scaled back this year, G4 growth will taper off later this year, and obviously WN's cuts. However, all of those drops won't last forever and 2020 will be more expansionary, considering the demand warrants additional service to BOS, AUS, PHL, WAS, SAN, MSY, and some previously unserved destinations like SAT and PDX.

Next year will also be much better for the airline industry as whole, MAX issues will be fixed, F9 gets tons of new aircraft(IIRC), DL won't be impacted by A220 delays, More substantial fleet growth from G4 compared to this year, and other factors as well which would make growth in IND much easier.

B6, MEX, Canada, and some short haul markets appear to be what's in the cards for the next year or so.

One last thing to note: Routes Americas is in early February, and one of the airlines in attendance usually announces at least one new route from the host city during the Conference

ilive4planes wrote:
ibthebigd wrote:
Any predictions for the 2nd half of the year?

My guess is nothing major.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Has anybody heard anymore rumors about service, cause in a PDF from a while back it said that there were 2 airlines in the works for IND!!


A PDF posted on this thread?


I think he is referring to that PDF posted that refers to IND's short term and long term plan. Short term listed domestic airlines (but it did not specify the number 2 so I have no idea where he got that number) from. And of course some of the long term things mentioned were Asia and International airlines.
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fedex1
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:02 pm

So Delta doesn’t classify IND as a focus city? MidWestIndy showed the months gains by Delta in IND. kind of shocked. Would this possibly mean the CDG flight might be in jeopardy? BNA, SJC, will likely get service to CDG? Where will those aircraft come from?
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:52 am

fedex1 wrote:
So Delta doesn’t classify IND as a focus city? MidWestIndy showed the months gains by Delta in IND. kind of shocked. Would this possibly mean the CDG flight might be in jeopardy? BNA, SJC, will likely get service to CDG? Where will those aircraft come from?


Markets such as LAS, TPA, and MCO weren't listed as focus cities on that article. Does that mean AMS-TPA/MCO is going anywhere? No. Also, Delta just upgaged IND-CDG in September. I am convinced the flight is fine due to that.
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airboss787
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:10 am

Do we know when the FedEx work will be done? Is there a link to the final result that they are building for. A lot of news articles but none mentioning exactly the plan as such. Also, what about the 3rd parallel runway? Is that happening now or later? How big is FedEx planning to get? I have heard bigger than MEM which sounds suspect, but still, it seems like a sizable expansion. Also, where could FedEx expand to? Will it be mostly domestic or will there be more international destinations? Maybe South America? More EU? Asia?
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:55 am

airboss787 wrote:
Do we know when the FedEx work will be done? Is there a link to the final result that they are building for. A lot of news articles but none mentioning exactly the plan as such. Also, what about the 3rd parallel runway? Is that happening now or later? How big is FedEx planning to get? I have heard bigger than MEM which sounds suspect, but still, it seems like a sizable expansion. Also, where could FedEx expand to? Will it be mostly domestic or will there be more international destinations? Maybe South America? More EU? Asia?


FedEx hasn't publicly released any of those details, any information that is available about renderings, future prospects, e.t.c has come from builders, the airport itself, or FX employees.

About how big FX will get, obviously FX isn't going to come out and publicly say in 10-15-20(however many imaginary years) years IND will be bigger than MEM.
- For one, why would they? It wouldn't benefit the company at all, especially since their HQ is in MEM. In addition, if they don't follow through that puts the company in a bad light for years and years to come. FX recently backed out of a development on the southside of Indianapolis and got dragged through the mud of local and national news, the saving grace for them was that they announced the IND project around the same time which changed the tone.
-Secondly, FX isn't going to commit to a 3rd runway until most of the work is done on the current expansion

However, I disagree with the notion that it is "suspect" that IND will become larger than MEM. If you break it down to the bear bones, it isn't suspect at all.

MEM = no more space, IND = more space.
In this next round of expansion, "total increase to the Leased Premises for this phase of expansion is in excess of 3.5M square feet" pg.11

3.5 million sq ft., without even an additional runway yet. (I'll assume they didn't mean 2.5M +3.5M sq ft)

https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... 1018124649

Image
FX 10-K

So again, it isn't far-fetched that IND could surpass MEM

To the last point IND has been primarily a domestic hub, from all accounts I assume that will, at least in part, change once the expansion fully kicks in
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:46 pm

"So again, it isn't far-fetched that IND could surpass MEM"...perhaps...but interesting that TN provides a $21M sweetener @ the same time IND begins talking about surpassing MEM...

April 2019: State looks to provide $21 million sweetener for FedEx hub expansion ...Haslam said Tennesseans shouldn’t take FedEx for granted. “They can land these planes and transfer these packages anywhere in the country. We’re thrilled and grateful that that happens in Memphis and we don’t want to let a significant investment like this happen without taking due notice of it,”

2018: Airport board clears path for Golden Triangle ramp project, FedEx's big expansion: The FedEx Express world hub at Memphis would grow to about 900 acres under the master lease amendment.
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:34 pm

Bluegrass60 wrote:
"So again, it isn't far-fetched that IND could surpass MEM"...perhaps...but interesting that TN provides a $21M sweetener @ the same time IND begins talking about surpassing MEM...

April 2019: State looks to provide $21 million sweetener for FedEx hub expansion ...Haslam said Tennesseans shouldn’t take FedEx for granted. “They can land these planes and transfer these packages anywhere in the country. We’re thrilled and grateful that that happens in Memphis and we don’t want to let a significant investment like this happen without taking due notice of it,”

2018: Airport board clears path for Golden Triangle ramp project, FedEx's big expansion: The FedEx Express world hub at Memphis would grow to about 900 acres under the master lease amendment.


I am confused at what you are trying to get at here? From the first article you reference: "FedEx is the airport’s largest tenant with about 880 acres under lease." So, an increase to 900 acres is a rather minuscule change.

And regardless, giving them a $21 Million dollar break on Sales taxes in MEM, is not going to determine what they do with IND
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:57 pm

Midwest Indy - your FX stat sheet advises FX in MEM has 784 acres....which appears to be growing to 900 acres....thats about 15%....not miniscule.

You need a course in negotiation....FX makes it known they might grow Indy to be bigger than MEM....the TN and MEM Econ Dev people read about it....woila....a new tax break for FX and the comment by former Gov Haslam that they should not take FX for granted....

IND should be thrilled with FX current presence and potential growth. Am sure FX would value anything the IND location might provide to help them beat UPS and Amazon Prime....who both sit due south and southeast from IND by 125 miles or less
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:14 pm

I think IND, is glad and happy about the jobs, and flights FedEx gives IND. IND, IMHO is a great location for transit for US. Look at the interstates we have... 65,69,70,74.... are all connected via 465... what other city has 4 interstates that connect in their city. Truck loads to the airport.
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:53 pm

Bluegrass60 wrote:
Midwest Indy - your FX stat sheet advises FX in MEM has 784 acres....which appears to be growing to 900 acres....thats about 15%....not miniscule.

You need a course in negotiation....FX makes it known they might grow Indy to be bigger than MEM....the TN and MEM Econ Dev people read about it....woila....a new tax break for FX and the comment by former Gov Haslam that they should not take FX for granted....

IND should be thrilled with FX current presence and potential growth. Am sure FX would value anything the IND location might provide to help them beat UPS and Amazon Prime....who both sit due south and southeast from IND by 125 miles or less


The image I showed was from the 2018 10-K, your source was from a month ago so I am assuming the 880 acre comment is more accurate.

FX has gotten more than their fair share of incentives from IND and Indiana, a year or two ago FX got $10M for a $175 expansion, and they have gotten other incentives for similar sized projects over the past 5-10 years.

If FX wants incentives from Indiana, they would be asking and it wouldn't be too hard to get it, heck if you look up thread they are asking the city of Indianapolis for incentives right now for another project near IND. The fact that FX isn't receiving any incentives for this development from Indiana is a better sign for the future growth of FX in IND than the future of FX growth in MEM.

At the end of the day, regardless of incentives, you can only invest so much into an airport that is capacity constrained. Eventually from a sheer common sense perspective, you are going to move growth to an area where there is room to grow for the foreseeable future.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:26 pm

I think the limitation at MEM is outdated sorting facilities. IIRC the investment there will totally rebuild their sort facility. This could provide a huge increase in sorting ability at MEM. As far as physical ramp space, the entire area between Democrat Rd. and I-240 is nothing but surface parking and a few old buildings that can be bought out. This is a huge area and can offer a significant expansion of ramp space. Furthermore there are neighborhoods on the west side of the airport that have been completely removed. This could offer additional remote ramp space. I don't see the FX MEM facility being anywhere near ultimate build out.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:26 am

flyPIT wrote:
I think the limitation at MEM is outdated sorting facilities. IIRC the investment there will totally rebuild their sort facility. This could provide a huge increase in sorting ability at MEM. As far as physical ramp space, the entire area between Democrat Rd. and I-240 is nothing but surface parking and a few old buildings that can be bought out. This is a huge area and can offer a significant expansion of ramp space. Furthermore there are neighborhoods on the west side of the airport that have been completely removed. This could offer additional remote ramp space. I don't see the FX MEM facility being anywhere near ultimate build out.


https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/ ... 055639001/

“The project would not increase landside or airside capacity, as FedEx is not adding flights or increasing ground vehicle activity in relation to this project,” it states.

“At its core, the purpose of the project is to replace operations, structures and equipment that are approaching the end of their useful life with modern operations, structures and equipment to improve the efficiency of FedEx’s business procedures,” it continues.

Image
Image

We can nit pick small details about how FX can grow incrementally here or there, but ultimately the pictures speak for themselves
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:49 am

Midwestindy wrote:
We can nit pick small details about how FX can grow incrementally here or there, but ultimately the pictures speak for themselves

Well sure the pictures speak for themselves, and once IND gets that runway in place I don't see them having much more land than MEM currently has for FX expansion. Again, all the space between Democrat Rd. and the interstate, and then some.

No one is suggesting IND can not significantly grow their operation. They can and will and IND sits in a wonderful position.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:50 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
We can nit pick small details about how FX can grow incrementally here or there, but ultimately the pictures speak for themselves

Well sure the pictures speak for themselves, and once IND gets that runway in place I don't see them having much more land than MEM currently has for FX expansion. Again, all the space between Democrat Rd. and the interstate, and then some.

No one is suggesting IND can not significantly grow their operation. They can and will and IND sits in a wonderful position.


That land is not usable for FX in MEM if you are talking about expanding the cargo tarmac, the amount of site prep work needed to expand to that area is insane.

For one, there is a massive creek running through that plot of land, and the amount of $$$ needed to deal with that alone will be immense:
Image

Then you have the problem of getting rid of the road in between the two areas, and then moving the business along that corridor to a different area, finding another adjacent plot of land that's big enough to put employee parking, demo for dozens of buildings in that area, and add on 10-12 other unique challenges that area has.

I mean that's a lot of $$$ they would need to spend, just to get a plot of land that wouldn't be adjacent to an existing runway.

Once the new runway is built(probably still won't be for a while) in IND, FX can always expand north to the old Indianapolis terminal area. But the additional runway area will be enough for the forseeable future.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:42 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
stlgph wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

These aren't MAX related, the only schedules that have been adjusted for the MAX's being out are the June/July/early August schedules. WN actually scheduled a decent amount of MAXs in the release from IND


AUS and SAN shouldn't be that hard, all you need is an RJ for AUS. And SAN has 180-220+ PDEW year-round. I'd be fine if NK started both, I wouldn't fly them, but they would at least fly it daily and boost PDEW to finally entice another airline to give it a true shot


Cmon. Short 34 planes from the Max in addition to the other shortage issues. The system is affected and it shows.

Again. Very easy adds to put back at a later date in the system and sell well given the travel habits of Hoosierland.


Overlooking whether or not they are MAX related cuts, it is very telling that WN decided to trim those 3 routes.

3 routes which they dominate in terms of Market share, but the minute another carrier decides to give them some competition they retreat.

Furthermore, if they were really that crunched for aircraft, wouldn't they trim IND-LAX/PHX(which they did this year) rather than IND-RSW/TPA. Especially considering how big RSW & TPA are during the late fall/winter + how much more aircraft time IND-PHX/LAX eat up + the fact that LAX yields are lower that time of year. This leads me to believe it is more of a reaction to NK


So which one is it.

Reductions because of fleet strains as we are seeing at a number of Southwest airports in the system

Or

The whole "our airport is awesome and we are seeing record growth and numbers etc etc and we are bringing in all these new services" rhetoric that keeps getting posted here over and over again is complete hogwash.

So which one is it.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:44 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
We can nit pick small details about how FX can grow incrementally here or there, but ultimately the pictures speak for themselves

Well sure the pictures speak for themselves, and once IND gets that runway in place I don't see them having much more land than MEM currently has for FX expansion. Again, all the space between Democrat Rd. and the interstate, and then some.

No one is suggesting IND can not significantly grow their operation. They can and will and IND sits in a wonderful position.


Come on. You cant go off just a picture.

Try reading the Shelby County land use agreements and amendments from the early 90s. MEM has plenty of options at their disposal for adding to their footprint.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:46 pm

stlgph wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
stlgph wrote:

Cmon. Short 34 planes from the Max in addition to the other shortage issues. The system is affected and it shows.

Again. Very easy adds to put back at a later date in the system and sell well given the travel habits of Hoosierland.


Overlooking whether or not they are MAX related cuts, it is very telling that WN decided to trim those 3 routes.

3 routes which they dominate in terms of Market share, but the minute another carrier decides to give them some competition they retreat.

Furthermore, if they were really that crunched for aircraft, wouldn't they trim IND-LAX/PHX(which they did this year) rather than IND-RSW/TPA. Especially considering how big RSW & TPA are during the late fall/winter + how much more aircraft time IND-PHX/LAX eat up + the fact that LAX yields are lower that time of year. This leads me to believe it is more of a reaction to NK


So which one is it.

Reductions because of fleet strains as we are seeing at a number of Southwest airports in the system

Or

The whole "our airport is awesome and we are seeing record growth and numbers etc etc and we are bringing in all these new services" rhetoric that keeps getting posted here over and over again is complete hogwash.

So which one is it.


What in the world?
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:48 pm

So. Which one is it?
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:54 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
We can nit pick small details about how FX can grow incrementally here or there, but ultimately the pictures speak for themselves

Well sure the pictures speak for themselves, and once IND gets that runway in place I don't see them having much more land than MEM currently has for FX expansion. Again, all the space between Democrat Rd. and the interstate, and then some.

No one is suggesting IND can not significantly grow their operation. They can and will and IND sits in a wonderful position.


That land is not usable for FX in MEM if you are talking about expanding the cargo tarmac, the amount of site prep work needed to expand to that area is insane.

For one, there is a massive creek running through that plot of land, and the amount of $$$ needed to deal with that alone will be immense:
Image

Then you have the problem of getting rid of the road in between the two areas, and then moving the business along that corridor to a different area, finding another adjacent plot of land that's big enough to put employee parking, demo for dozens of buildings in that area, and add on 10-12 other unique challenges that area has.

I mean that's a lot of $$$ they would need to spend, just to get a plot of land that wouldn't be adjacent to an existing runway.

Once the new runway is built(probably still won't be for a while) in IND, FX can always expand north to the old Indianapolis terminal area. But the additional runway area will be enough for the forseeable future.



Tennessee would pave over Graceland and Beale Street if FedEx told them to. I just don't see this as the big deal you do. Much of the surface lots in that area are old rental lots which relocated to a consolidated facility. The rest are FedEx employee lots that can be put in a garage to free up space. Democrat Rd. and the muddy creek can be bridged with a taxiway bridge.

How many tens, if not hundreds of millions did Indiana pay to relocate I-70 to allow for FX expansion? And it still needs to be bridged. I don't think a theoretical site prep at MEM would cost nearly that much.

My only point is if FX wants to significantly expand their MEM mother ship they can make it happen.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:55 pm

stlgph wrote:
So. Which one is it?


Not sure what you are talking about...... But this is my cue to take a break from a.net for a while, I might check this in a few weeks = :wave:
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:02 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
stlgph wrote:
So. Which one is it?


Not sure what you are talking about...... But this is my cue to take a break from a.net for a while, I might check this in a few weeks = :wave:


I can't blame you there.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:26 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
Well sure the pictures speak for themselves, and once IND gets that runway in place I don't see them having much more land than MEM currently has for FX expansion. Again, all the space between Democrat Rd. and the interstate, and then some.

No one is suggesting IND can not significantly grow their operation. They can and will and IND sits in a wonderful position.


That land is not usable for FX in MEM if you are talking about expanding the cargo tarmac, the amount of site prep work needed to expand to that area is insane.

For one, there is a massive creek running through that plot of land, and the amount of $$$ needed to deal with that alone will be immense:
Image

Then you have the problem of getting rid of the road in between the two areas, and then moving the business along that corridor to a different area, finding another adjacent plot of land that's big enough to put employee parking, demo for dozens of buildings in that area, and add on 10-12 other unique challenges that area has.

I mean that's a lot of $$$ they would need to spend, just to get a plot of land that wouldn't be adjacent to an existing runway.

Once the new runway is built(probably still won't be for a while) in IND, FX can always expand north to the old Indianapolis terminal area. But the additional runway area will be enough for the forseeable future.



Tennessee would pave over Graceland and Beale Street if FedEx told them to. I just don't see this as the big deal you do. Much of the surface lots in that area are old rental lots which relocated to a consolidated facility. The rest are FedEx employee lots that can be put in a garage to free up space. Democrat Rd. and the muddy creek can be bridged with a taxiway bridge.

How many tens, if not hundreds of millions did Indiana pay to relocate I-70 to allow for FX expansion? And it still needs to be bridged. I don't think a theoretical site prep at MEM would cost nearly that much.

My only point is if FX wants to significantly expand their MEM mother ship they can make it happen.



I agree with all of the above. That said, I do wonder how much more the city of Memphis (as a city, not a government) can support a larger FedEx. The labor market is largely tapped out and is shrinking (FedEx has to bus folks in from around the mid south to staff the operation during peak). Yes, FedEx could pay more to attract more labor, but I would be curious of the business case versus expanding in Indy which has a larger economic footprint to draw from.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:13 pm

United returns mainline in Dec to IND-ORD, one daily 737-800.
However, IND-EWR goes almost all ERJs that month, with only one daily flight on any larger plane (E170)
SFO also is reduced to 1x daily YOY.
DEN sees 2x A320, 1x E70 that month
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:07 pm

SumChristianus wrote:
United returns mainline in Dec to IND-ORD, one daily 737-800.
However, IND-EWR goes almost all ERJs that month, with only one daily flight on any larger plane (E170)
SFO also is reduced to 1x daily YOY.
DEN sees 2x A320, 1x E70 that month

I thought SFO was 2 x daily only in the summer. Last year and during the winter the noon departure used to be the only non-stop option with the a/c parking overnight in IND and coming back in the morning. Even now it's particularly confusing as I can see the red eye departure from SFO but last week my evening non-stop from IND was cancelled well in advance and I was put on an ORD layover.

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