COSPN
Posts: 1755
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:27 am

Who is invited to this ...? The public . .?
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 640
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:13 am

COSPN wrote:
Who is invited to this ...? The public . .?


I assume if you RSVP. I guess send an email and ask.
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4285
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:29 pm

No major changes for WN in terms of decreases or increases. With this in mind, DL should continue its growth through Q2 2020
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
fedex1
Posts: 326
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:54 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:37 am

What is Delta doing to add so much growth quarter after quarter? What did delta look like in IND 3 years ago, to now?
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4285
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:40 pm

I saw that SY is announcing new destinations, I recall that they were planning on adding IND at some point in time...I wonder if NK prevents them from coming, even though I believe they could still make RSW, MCO, e.t.c work in peak season despite the immense competition.

fedex1 wrote:
What is Delta doing to add so much growth quarter after quarter? What did delta look like in IND 3 years ago, to now?


Mostly upguages, larger aircraft:
3 years ago, SLC was seasonal on an A319, now it is B738 for half the year
MCO was all RJ, now it is year-round mainline
MSP was a mixture of RJ/Mainline, or all RJ. Now it is all mainline from April-November
RSW now has mainline in the winter
LAX was upguaged to a B738 from an A319
CUN was increased from MD88s to B739s
DTW is increasing to 4x daily mainline next summer
JFK increased up to 3x daily flights for most of the year
BOS increased up to 4x daily flights for most of the year
ATL increased up to 10x daily flights for most of the year
CDG/SEA were added

In comparison they were #3 in IND at the end of 2016, and in August they were #1 in IND
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
fedex1
Posts: 326
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:54 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:32 pm

Wow, that is pretty impressive! Thank you!
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4285
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:42 pm

NK's late spring early summer schedule got extended without including MYR. While I didn't expect to see a resumption of service due to horrid bad factors, I hope they replace it with something else
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 640
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:47 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
NK's late spring early summer schedule got extended without including MYR. While I didn't expect to see a resumption of service due to horrid bad factors, I hope they replace it with something else


Looks like they cut PIT-MYR as well. I bet FLL will be the next destination added from IND.
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4285
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:21 pm

zackary747 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
NK's late spring early summer schedule got extended without including MYR. While I didn't expect to see a resumption of service due to horrid bad factors, I hope they replace it with something else


Looks like they cut PIT-MYR as well. I bet FLL will be the next destination added from IND.


While it is a logical next step, and I largely agree FLL is probably next for NK, the airport should be pushing carriers to add service outside of Florida, there are so many other markets: AUS, PDX, SAN, SAT, MSY, just to name a few that are underserved or don't have service at all. Not even considering ULCC market stimulation in places like NYC, BOS, WAS, e.t.c

I think service to VPS, JAX, SFB, MCO, PIE, TPA, SRQ, RSW, PGD, FLL, MIA, and PBI is quite sufficient for Florida, especially since most markets are served by at least 3-5 carriers. However, I think IND will continue to see carriers expand their Florida service, since it's an area that is hard to over serve.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
airboss787
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:39 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:20 am

Midwestindy wrote:
zackary747 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
NK's late spring early summer schedule got extended without including MYR. While I didn't expect to see a resumption of service due to horrid bad factors, I hope they replace it with something else


Looks like they cut PIT-MYR as well. I bet FLL will be the next destination added from IND.


While it is a logical next step, and I largely agree FLL is probably next for NK, the airport should be pushing carriers to add service outside of Florida, there are so many other markets: AUS, PDX, SAN, SAT, MSY, just to name a few that are underserved or don't have service at all. Not even considering ULCC market stimulation in places like NYC, BOS, WAS, e.t.c

I think service to VPS, JAX, SFB, MCO, PIE, TPA, SRQ, RSW, PGD, FLL, MIA, and PBI is quite sufficient for Florida, especially since most markets are served by at least 3-5 carriers. However, I think IND will continue to see carriers expand their Florida service, since it's an area that is hard to over serve.


Is there data that shows the number of seats/flights from IND to Florida compared to other mid-tier cities comparable to IND? There is a massive number of seats between IND and Florida and it seems to be a market with never enough seats but how does that compare with other similarly sized markets in terms of flights or seats?
Star Alliance Gold
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4285
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:47 pm

A few aircraft changes for DL March:
IND-DTW A321 swapped in for the month
IND-MSP B739 swapped in for the month
IND-ATL MD80 phased out for the month
IND-BOS all E175

https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... 1101151851
September Numbers
Sep YOY +1.9%
YTD +1.3%

Cargo
Sep YOY -6.1%
YTD -4.6%

If I did the math correctly, CDG-IND operated at ~80% LF, which is noteworthy considering LFs last year were in the 50s-60s and DL even added a frequency.

Market Share for September - Change in passengers
DL: 28.3% (+14.1%)
WN: 24.4% (-11.0%)

AA: 23.3% (+8.3%)
UA: 14.0% (-4.5%)
G4: 2.8% (-18.2%)
F9: 2.4% (-21.4%)
NK: 2.2%
*AS: 1.4% (-24.6%) Very high LFs on SEA-IND
AC: 0.9% (+9.4%)


YTD Market Share:
WN: 29.5%
DL: 25.0%
AA: 21.6%
UA: 11.4%
G4: 6.0%
F9: 2.6%
NK: 1.8%
AS: 1.2%
AC: 0.6%

DL growth still going strong
2019
Sep +14.1%
Aug +9.4%
July +11.7%
June + 7.2%
May +13.0%
Apr +10.9%
Mar +14.6%
Feb +10.7%
Jan +13.3%
Dec +11.5%
Nov +15.2%
Oct +11.3%
Sep +14.8%
Aug +19.5%
Jul +14.9%
Jun +13.1%
May +5.8%
Apr +10.5%
2018

airboss787 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
zackary747 wrote:

Looks like they cut PIT-MYR as well. I bet FLL will be the next destination added from IND.


While it is a logical next step, and I largely agree FLL is probably next for NK, the airport should be pushing carriers to add service outside of Florida, there are so many other markets: AUS, PDX, SAN, SAT, MSY, just to name a few that are underserved or don't have service at all. Not even considering ULCC market stimulation in places like NYC, BOS, WAS, e.t.c

I think service to VPS, JAX, SFB, MCO, PIE, TPA, SRQ, RSW, PGD, FLL, MIA, and PBI is quite sufficient for Florida, especially since most markets are served by at least 3-5 carriers. However, I think IND will continue to see carriers expand their Florida service, since it's an area that is hard to over serve.


Is there data that shows the number of seats/flights from IND to Florida compared to other mid-tier cities comparable to IND? There is a massive number of seats between IND and Florida and it seems to be a market with never enough seats but how does that compare with other similarly sized markets in terms of flights or seats?


Here is the March peak schedule:
Image
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
airboss787
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:39 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:57 am

Midwestindy wrote:
A few aircraft changes for DL March:
IND-DTW A321 swapped in for the month
IND-MSP B739 swapped in for the month
IND-ATL MD80 phased out for the month
IND-BOS all E175

https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... 1101151851
September Numbers
Sep YOY +1.9%
YTD +1.3%

Cargo
Sep YOY -6.1%
YTD -4.6%

If I did the math correctly, CDG-IND operated at ~80% LF, which is noteworthy considering LFs last year were in the 50s-60s and DL even added a frequency.

Market Share for September - Change in passengers
DL: 28.3% (+14.1%)
WN: 24.4% (-11.0%)

AA: 23.3% (+8.3%)
UA: 14.0% (-4.5%)
G4: 2.8% (-18.2%)
F9: 2.4% (-21.4%)
NK: 2.2%
*AS: 1.4% (-24.6%) Very high LFs on SEA-IND
AC: 0.9% (+9.4%)


YTD Market Share:
WN: 29.5%
DL: 25.0%
AA: 21.6%
UA: 11.4%
G4: 6.0%
F9: 2.6%
NK: 1.8%
AS: 1.2%
AC: 0.6%

DL growth still going strong
2019
Sep +14.1%
Aug +9.4%
July +11.7%
June + 7.2%
May +13.0%
Apr +10.9%
Mar +14.6%
Feb +10.7%
Jan +13.3%
Dec +11.5%
Nov +15.2%
Oct +11.3%
Sep +14.8%
Aug +19.5%
Jul +14.9%
Jun +13.1%
May +5.8%
Apr +10.5%
2018

airboss787 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

While it is a logical next step, and I largely agree FLL is probably next for NK, the airport should be pushing carriers to add service outside of Florida, there are so many other markets: AUS, PDX, SAN, SAT, MSY, just to name a few that are underserved or don't have service at all. Not even considering ULCC market stimulation in places like NYC, BOS, WAS, e.t.c

I think service to VPS, JAX, SFB, MCO, PIE, TPA, SRQ, RSW, PGD, FLL, MIA, and PBI is quite sufficient for Florida, especially since most markets are served by at least 3-5 carriers. However, I think IND will continue to see carriers expand their Florida service, since it's an area that is hard to over serve.


Is there data that shows the number of seats/flights from IND to Florida compared to other mid-tier cities comparable to IND? There is a massive number of seats between IND and Florida and it seems to be a market with never enough seats but how does that compare with other similarly sized markets in terms of flights or seats?


Here is the March peak schedule:
Image


Awesome thanks a lot for the data. IND in fact is the largest airport to Florida out of the airports you posted. Pretty impressive. 41 flights on that day. :shock:
Star Alliance Gold
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4285
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:50 pm

IND-CDG continues to show substantial growth into November, hard to see DL not keeping this route year-round next year.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1236
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:11 pm

Great news on CDG. Curious what your evidence is based on.
 
indygs
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:22 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:39 pm

ncflyer wrote:
Great news on CDG. Curious what your evidence is based on.


Totally anecdotal but last Tuesday's departure (last week in October) had only two seats open in Y, which I found promising. Of course one night's flight doesn't make or break it, but that's not bad for shoulder season mid-week.
 
VTORD
Posts: 586
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:06 pm

indygs wrote:

Totally anecdotal but last Tuesday's departure (last week in October) had only two seats open in Y, which I found promising. Of course one night's flight doesn't make or break it, but that's not bad for shoulder season mid-week.

Totally anecdotal again but I was looking for some BOM-IND RTs over Feb and again in the summer and the CDG flight is seriously well timed for the return leg. Connecting in JFK to the new n/s involves either 52-min or 6-hr layover! And not many seats are open either on the CDG leg.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4285
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:12 pm

ncflyer wrote:
Great news on CDG. Curious what your evidence is based on.


Extrapolating Indianapolis International airport numbers (Subtracting total int'l numbers by Air Canada), and using comparisons of seatmaps from 1 hour before departure YOY
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4285
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:20 pm

Incentive money for IND-CDG is close to drying up, $4,574,325 out of $5.5M has already been paid (as of September 30th)

https://secure.in.gov/apps/iedc/transpa ... 5056b34823
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
toosay
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:19 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:21 am

Any idea when Delta might update the plane for IND-CDG? I know Delta is in the process of replacing the 767 but am hopeful this route gets upgraded soon.
 
indygs
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:22 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:55 am

toosay wrote:
Any idea when Delta might update the plane for IND-CDG? I know Delta is in the process of replacing the 767 but am hopeful this route gets upgraded soon.


Don't hold your breath. I think the 767 will be on this kind of route for some time yet. While new 350s and 330neos are joining the fleet, I imagine they'll be deployed on other routes first. I could see a summer time up-gauge, there aren't too many examples system-wide where DL does this.
 
fedex1
Posts: 326
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:54 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:57 am

Great news for the CDG flight MidWest! Thanks for your updates.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4285
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:11 am

indygs wrote:
toosay wrote:
Any idea when Delta might update the plane for IND-CDG? I know Delta is in the process of replacing the 767 but am hopeful this route gets upgraded soon.


Don't hold your breath. I think the 767 will be on this kind of route for some time yet. While new 350s and 330neos are joining the fleet, I imagine they'll be deployed on other routes first. I could see a summer time up-gauge, there aren't too many examples system-wide where DL does this.


Welcome to a.net toosay!

Indygs is right about Delta keeping equipment type flat year-round, I was speaking with a Delta gate agent who was talking about this very concept that DL employs. If you look at CVG & RDU-CDG, both routes have been operated for significant chunks of time without any additional service (other than RDU-CDG switching from 757 to 767 a while back).

I think the ship has sailed for Summer 2020 on long-haul equipment changes for Delta. However, given how high I suspect IND-CDG LFs were this summer, I suspect DL will try to increase connection availability for IND based TATL flyers: They already added mainline to 2 of the afternoon IND-DTW flights next summer, and it might make sense to add mainline to BOS or an extra frequency to JFK to capture the rise in TATL demand.

I think the next step IND is working on is getting a carrier to add LHR, as opposed to working heavily on getting DL to upguage their aircraft.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4285
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:40 pm

More Routes Americas info: Looks like some heavy hitters will be attending, so far Director of Route Planning for JetBlue will be speaking, but the conference program has some CEOs in the lineup that have yet to be revealed.

https://www.routesonline.com/events/con ... ainContent
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
fedex1
Posts: 326
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:54 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:48 am

So, ( Midwest ) do we see year round service continuing on Delta to CDG? Or scaled back? Or is it too soon to know / tell?!?
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 640
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:50 am

fedex1 wrote:
So, ( Midwest ) do we see year round service continuing on Delta to CDG? Or scaled back? Or is it too soon to know / tell?!?


The answer to your question is literally a couple posts above.....

He said "IND-CDG continues to show substantial growth into November, hard to see DL not keeping this route year-round next year." If you scroll up you'll see the original....
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
jplatts
Posts: 2957
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:08 am

Midwestindy wrote:
I think the next step IND is working on is getting a carrier to add LHR, as opposed to working heavily on getting DL to upguage their aircraft.


BA adding IND-LHR nonstop service is a possibility with BA already serving LHR nonstop from some non-AA hub airports in the U.S. such as ATL, AUS, BWI, BOS, DEN, IAH, LAS, BNA, MSY, EWR, PIT, SAN, SFO, SJC, SEA, and IAD.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4285
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:25 am

zackary747 wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
So, ( Midwest ) do we see year round service continuing on Delta to CDG? Or scaled back? Or is it too soon to know / tell?!?


The answer to your question is literally a couple posts above.....

He said "IND-CDG continues to show substantial growth into November, hard to see DL not keeping this route year-round next year." If you scroll up you'll see the original....


Let's say they do cut it back to seasonal, I think the State of Indiana would do a good job of recruiting a new airline to fly year-round
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
User avatar
SumChristianus
Posts: 586
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:00 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:05 am

AA goes to 6x daily IND-DFW from next April. All B738 which is quite an upgauge from the past 5x M80 they had had for a long time. 960 seats each way weekdays.
UA DL LH NW AA --- Next IND-ATL-DEN: WN 73G/738
"Born in Wonder, Brought to Wisdom"
 
fedex1
Posts: 326
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:54 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:39 am

I wasn’t trying to make any one upset! I was asking. I have read enough on here when A.net posters say a route is doing fine and the carrier disconnected it a month later lol . So purely asking . Yes Midwest said loads are much better than year 1 service, but that doesn’t mean Delta loves it. That’s all. I simply was asking.

Also, what would be the chances of Delta wanting to fly LHR from IND? Or is that a thought that I should never even dream of.
 
kindeham
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:55 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:13 am

fedex1 wrote:

Also, what would be the chances of Delta wanting to fly LHR from IND? Or is that a thought that I should never even dream of.


I can't really imagine Delta doing LHR due to the lack of connection opportunities especially in comparison to what they have at CDG or could have at AMS. BA on the other hand would have their entire network accessible for connections plus pick up a sizeable share of those with the destination of London.
 
indygs
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:22 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:02 pm

For LHR, you also have to think of who has a slot pair to spare. Last year DL served PHL-LHR and ended up scrapping it to move that slot pair to a more profitable route for them. My bet is that if LHR is going to happen, it'll be BA 787 and it'll be a 3-4x weekly service at most to start. If the route proves itself, they'll increase frequency.

As an aside, I think IND continues to butt up against some self-imposed ceilings. By this, I mean the airport's INTL facilities aren't awesome, so an additional TATL flight with departures/arrivals around the same time as CDG might really hamper things in the international arrivals area. Additionally, the lack of space for a second lounge could be a lingering issue for a second TATL carrier offering a premium product (of course some may argue BA isn't exactly premium these days, but offering a lounge for elites and C class is somewhat standard for legacy carrier long-hauls). This, of course, is also seen with the ongoing struggle to build the two larger convention hotels downtown which would significantly improve the city's ability to handle two major conventions simultaneously. There's conservative, and then there's positioning for growth. We tend to fall short, at times, when choosing between the two.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4285
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:08 pm

kindeham wrote:
fedex1 wrote:

Also, what would be the chances of Delta wanting to fly LHR from IND? Or is that a thought that I should never even dream of.


I can't really imagine Delta doing LHR due to the lack of connection opportunities especially in comparison to what they have at CDG or could have at AMS. BA on the other hand would have their entire network accessible for connections plus pick up a sizeable share of those with the destination of London.


I'd like to see the actual PDEW to London from IND:
In peak summer the total TATL PDEW was ~655 in 2019 and assuming growth at 3% annually(3% is conservative considering additional nonstop service would likely boost total TATL demand) that would get 695 peak PDEW in 2021, when service would likely start. Considering in the past LON made up around 20 or so percent of total TATL PDEW, that would put PDEW in summer to LON at around 139 PDEW. Assuming some stimulation in the market from nonstop service, (30% seems safe) that could get IND-LON at around 181 PDEW in peak summer.

Discounting the market share to 80% (which may be generous), DL could potentially capture 145 of those daily passengers + maybe 30-40 or so connecting pax in either LHR or IND, which may not be enough for them to jump the gun on adding such a flight, considering there would likely be cannibalization to DL's existing CDG flight.

Would incentives from the State of Indiana be enough for DL to try it seasonally 3-4x weekly? I wouldn't say it is likely, but it wouldn't be out of the blue necessarily. However, I am not sure if they would be able to get a slot for the flight.

BA would obviously be the most straight forward choice, considering they have the connecting structure to not entirely rely on O&D, but I don't know what their aircraft situation is looking like

indygs wrote:
For LHR, you also have to think of who has a slot pair to spare. Last year DL served PHL-LHR and ended up scrapping it to move that slot pair to a more profitable route for them. My bet is that if LHR is going to happen, it'll be BA 787 and it'll be a 3-4x weekly service at most to start. If the route proves itself, they'll increase frequency.

As an aside, I think IND continues to butt up against some self-imposed ceilings. By this, I mean the airport's INTL facilities aren't awesome, so an additional TATL flight with departures/arrivals around the same time as CDG might really hamper things in the international arrivals area. Additionally, the lack of space for a second lounge could be a lingering issue for a second TATL carrier offering a premium product (of course some may argue BA isn't exactly premium these days, but offering a lounge for elites and C class is somewhat standard for legacy carrier long-hauls). This, of course, is also seen with the ongoing struggle to build the two larger convention hotels downtown which would significantly improve the city's ability to handle two major conventions simultaneously. There's conservative, and then there's positioning for growth. We tend to fall short, at times, when choosing between the two.


I don't know where they would put an additional lounge, and I don't even know if they can expand the current Skyclub. All the current retail locations appear to be leased out:
Image
Image

Almost every US BA location has an admirals club, and even if they don't have an admirals club they at least have a common use lounge. Would that prevent BA or another carrier from trying a Transoceanic route?
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
indygs
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:22 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:54 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Almost every US BA location has an admirals club, and even if they don't have an admirals club they at least have a common use lounge. Would that prevent BA or another carrier from trying a Transoceanic route?


I think this has to be a bit of an impediment for a legacy carrier. No way DL allows use of the Sky Club for a hypothetical BA flight, so you're next best option if a new lounge isn't a possibility is a restaurant-relationship similar to what Priority Pass has in Indy, but even that seems a bit unlikely given how crowded Harry and Izzy's, the closest to the international gates, gets during the evening departure time.
 
fedex1
Posts: 326
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:54 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:34 pm

May I ask ( probably a dumb question ) to you all.... but Indygps brought up very good points. The city as a whole is reluctant to build in general. The 2 high rise downtown hotels which would change not only the skyline, but downtown, along with a larger convention center.... for the conventions.... same goes with the airport. So here is my question: why did IND build the airport with no room for a airline lounge, but 1.... or to be bigger, or have more than 1? As I read, space is a serious issue? Also why is the international arrivals so poor designed? As I think someone eluded too? I could be wrong.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4285
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:13 am

indygs wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Almost every US BA location has an admirals club, and even if they don't have an admirals club they at least have a common use lounge. Would that prevent BA or another carrier from trying a Transoceanic route?


I think this has to be a bit of an impediment for a legacy carrier. No way DL allows use of the Sky Club for a hypothetical BA flight, so you're next best option if a new lounge isn't a possibility is a restaurant-relationship similar to what Priority Pass has in Indy, but even that seems a bit unlikely given how crowded Harry and Izzy's, the closest to the international gates, gets during the evening departure time.


A restaurant-relationship would not be ideal, so hopefully it doesn't come to that as the only option

A common-use lounge would be interesting, although I am afraid it would go underutilized. It is probably the most likely scenario, considering AA hasn't been growing their outstation lounges and have closed Admirals clubs in BDL, GSO, BUF, and SJU. And there is no way UA is opening a club in IND....

fedex1 wrote:
May I ask ( probably a dumb question ) to you all.... but Indygps brought up very good points. The city as a whole is reluctant to build in general. The 2 high rise downtown hotels which would change not only the skyline, but downtown, along with a larger convention center.... for the conventions.... same goes with the airport. So here is my question: why did IND build the airport with no room for a airline lounge, but 1.... or to be bigger, or have more than 1? As I read, space is a serious issue? Also why is the international arrivals so poor designed? As I think someone eluded too? I could be wrong.


The reason behind the airport design was to not build anymore than they needed, which is the reason why gates B1&B2 and A1&A2 don't exist. They didn't want to waste money building space for something that wouldn't be needed for 15-20 years. In fact, the Sky Club didn't open until 2 years after the terminal opened.

Technically, I believe the area on Concourse B adjacent to where the security checkpoint is, is supposed to be area that could be used for a new lounge. However, the airport is leasing that space out to retailers now, and the deals I believe are for 5 or 10 years.

International arrivals, goes along with my point above, where I said that the terminal was built to be expanded. When it first was built, it wasn't utilized to what it is today, there was only hit or miss once weekly seasonal CUN service then.

If push comes to shove, all of the green space below can be converted to additional customs/baggage/ticketing area.
Image
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 411
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:33 am

I’m curious, how could IND be expanded in the future if it needs to be? Like where would additional gates/concourses go?

Also, why no Admirals or United Club in IND?
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 640
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:30 am

@MidwestIndy

Speaking of expansion maybe we'll hear something about that on the 15th (Friday). We'll just have to wait and see.

Image
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
kindeham
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:55 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:00 am

BNAMealer wrote:
I’m curious, how could IND be expanded in the future if it needs to be? Like where would additional gates/concourses go?

Also, why no Admirals or United Club in IND?


The ability to add additional gates was built into the original design. Both concourses can be lengthened (to the west and to the south). Take a look at it on Google Maps satellite view and it will be quite obvious where the additional gates/concourse space would go. That's also where future gates A1/2 and B1/2 will end up.

It appears there is enough room for several additional gates if it would be needed in the long run. I suppose in the very long term both concourses could be extended to the northeast by moving taxiway R also to the northeast. In about 50 years there is a large field to the northeast that could house another entire terminal (or two) that perhaps could be connected to the main terminal by an underground train or moving sidewalk (okay I am just day dreaming now, but I guess it is possible!)

As for why no Admirals or United Club - United pretty much ignores IND as some sort of red headed step child to Chicago. American (as mentioned earlier) has been reducing the number of Admiral clubs at other similar sized outstations.
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 411
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:12 am

kindeham wrote:
The ability to add additional gates was built into the original design. Both concourses can be lengthened (to the west and to the south). Take a look at it on Google Maps satellite view and it will be quite obvious where the additional gates/concourse space would go. That's also where future gates A1/2 and B1/2 will end up.


I did look at the Google Maps satellite view and I noticed the space seems pretty tight in all directions unless you moved taxiways. You could only fit a few more gates to the west and south as you mentioned.
 
COSPN
Posts: 1755
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:16 pm

IND has been selling off land it has owned for years so I don’t think they will ever add any more Gates just keep increasing the fees that will solve the problem ..
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4285
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:41 pm

WN pushed the MAX cancellations forward last night:
IND-MCI goes down to 1x daily, timings appear to be IND focused with a 7:15am IND-MCI, and a 7:50pm MCI-IND flight

Saturday Changes:
7 B738/Ms to 5 B738s
5 MCO to 4 MCO
3 FLL to 2 FLL
2 LAS to 3 LAS
1 MDW to 0 MDW

Sunday Changes:
8 B738/Ms to 6 B738s
3 RSW to 2 RSW
1 MDW to 0 MDW

BNAMealer wrote:
I’m curious, how could IND be expanded in the future if it needs to be? Like where would additional gates/concourses go?

Also, why no Admirals or United Club in IND?


United also doesn't have a good reputation in IND, because of the MX base that used to be at the airport

Image

This I believe is the original layout of the airport before they decided to exclude A1&2 + B1&2 from construction, you can see the blurred out parts at the ends of the concourses are where those new gates will be.

However, IND is fine on gate space for its existing airlines. DL uses 11 different gates, G4 uses 2-3, F9 uses 1, AA uses 9 or 10, WN uses 6, UA uses 6, NK/AC use 1. Hard to see any of these airlines needing more space then they have now, other than G4 or NK.

COSPN wrote:
IND has been selling off land it has owned for years so I don’t think they will ever add any more Gates just keep increasing the fees that will solve the problem ..


Don't the airlines agree to these rates? Can't blame the airport entirely for trying to use airport revenues to work on capital projects.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
COSPN
Posts: 1755
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:15 pm

High rates = Less flights unless you are in New York or sone other expensive place...pretty simple
 
User avatar
southwest1675
Posts: 1213
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:03 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:29 pm

Is anyone gonna start IND-BNA or what? Contour was looking into it last I heard.
Herb Kelleher 1931-2019
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 640
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:08 am

Big day for IND tomorrow.

NK starts up TPA and RSW.

G4 starts up TUS.
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4285
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:17 am

COSPN wrote:
High rates = Less flights unless you are in New York or sone other expensive place...pretty simple


I haven't seen any evidence of this occurring yet. At this point, the only airline that appears to be cutting back capacity in IND next year looks to be WN, which was happening before airline rate increases were even being negotiated.

The alternative to not raising rates is incurring even more debt, which isn't ideal in the long run for a variety of reasons.

I don't see any other viable alternative

https://www.cleveland.com/travel/2018/0 ... _airl.html
Comparatively, PIT & CLE have higher CPE's and yet they have similar levels of service as IND

southwest1675 wrote:
Is anyone gonna start IND-BNA or what? Contour was looking into it last I heard.


Taking their sweet time

zackary747 wrote:
Big day for IND tomorrow.

NK starts up TPA and RSW.

G4 starts up TUS.


I'm expecting some press release tomorrow, I'm a bit surprised they didn't put out a press release for their Q3 numbers which they do after every quarter.....maybe they weren't happy about the numbers.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 640
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:57 am

Big day for IND tomorrow.

NK starts up TPA and RSW.

G4 starts up TUS.

I'm expecting some press release tomorrow, I'm a bit surprised they didn't put out a press release for their Q3 numbers which they do after every quarter.....maybe they weren't happy about the numbers.


I'm curious on when they announce their next routes out of here. I'd imagine FLL is next. Lots of connecting options there Caribbean/South America wise.
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4285
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:15 pm

zackary747 wrote:
Big day for IND tomorrow.

NK starts up TPA and RSW.

G4 starts up TUS.

I'm expecting some press release tomorrow, I'm a bit surprised they didn't put out a press release for their Q3 numbers which they do after every quarter.....maybe they weren't happy about the numbers.


I'm curious on when they announce their next routes out of here. I'd imagine FLL is next. Lots of connecting options there Caribbean/South America wise.


It appears they are keeping MYR, as they mention RSW & TPA are the 4th and 5th destinations from NK. John Kirby the VP of Network Planning for NK knows the IND market well, and he's mentioned before that IND heavily leans to the west coast of Florida, making IND-FLL more difficult to enter than RSW, MCO, and TPA. We'll see how IND-RSW/TPA perform, which will likely determine what happens with IND-FLL.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
EMB170
Posts: 341
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:16 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:53 pm

The original master plan stated that IND could have up to 50 gates (they currently have IIRC ~40-44ish). In addition to A1, A2, B1, and B2, there is also the potential to add missing gates on both concourses (A9, A18, A19, B11, B18, and B19).

As demand warrants, I'm sure they'll look at filling in the blanks.

As consolidation both among airlines and airports occurs, cities that are growing the way IND is will more than likely be prime targets for European carriers and their US partners. DL seems to be doing well with its CDG service; in a few years time, I could see BA (or AA) adding LHR if demand warrants. A common lounge would seem like the best solution...and never say never on an Admirals Club...L-US used to have a club in the old IND on D concourse for many years....
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
COSPN
Posts: 1755
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:18 pm

PIT and CLE are failed airports that lost hundreds of flights... IND needs to be more like CVG / SDF/ STL add value and not be a “cash drain” on the city and the airlines .
 
IndyHoosier
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:35 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:16 pm

EMB170 wrote:
The original master plan stated that IND could have up to 50 gates (they currently have IIRC ~40-44ish). In addition to A1, A2, B1, and B2, there is also the potential to add missing gates on both concourses (A9, A18, A19, B11, B18, and B19).


Yeah, I remember seeing a master plan drawing for the terminal that showed the future expansion of the current terminal by adding 10 gates to each of the current concourses, for a total of 60, and then if needed, a future X-shaped terminal to the northeast of the current terminal.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos