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avtcle
Posts: 348
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:40 pm

Southwest has been catious to add anything. At this points it’s looking like they very well may be without the MAX next summer. They’re in a weakened financial position and at a huge loss for equipment.
 
masseybrown
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Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:06 pm

avtcle wrote:
Southwest has been catious to add anything. At this points it’s looking like they very well may be without the MAX next summer. They’re in a weakened financial position and at a huge loss for equipment.


They added a substantial number of flights at their "hubs". The schedule extension apparently includes MAX flying. MAX should be flying by summer, but you never know.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1639
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:20 pm

ncflyer wrote:
endless chatter on here about WN adding this and adding that— and nothing at all this summer.


Still MAX related? Similar to the other carriers, I'd guess you'll see a bump in capacity and lower rates when 40(?) each planes at UA/WN/AA all come back into play.

I agree WN is disappointing, not even LAS daily.
 
avtcle
Posts: 348
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:49 pm

Frontier is now accepting reservations through August 2019 — Here’s an overview for CLE currently. Keep in mind that many changes are likely as the schedule was only just opened this morning for DenDeals members:

CLE-MCO: Stays @ 2x daily, year-round
CLE-TPA: goes from 2x daily to 10x weekly beginning in May, year-round
CLE-RSW: stays @ 10x weekly, year-round
CLE-FLL: Ends April 19, 2020, 3x weekly, seasonal
CLE-MIA: Ends April 23, 2020, 4x weekly, seasonal
CLE-CHS: Resumes April, 23, 2020 @ 3x weekly, seasonal
CLE-SEA: resumes June 1, 2020 @ 4x weekly, seasonal
CLE-SFO: resumes June 2, 2020 @3x weekly, seasonal
CLE-MSP: resumes June 2, 2020 @ 3x weekly
CLE-RDU: resumes April 24, 2020 @ 4x weekly
CLE-PBI: Ends April 24, 2020, 4x weekly, seasonal
CLE-PUJ: Stays @ 3x weekly, year-round
CLE-SRQ: Ends April 21, 2020 @ 3x weekly
CLE-CUN: Stays @ 3x weekly, year-round
CLE-AUS: resumes May 15, 2020 @ 4x weekly
CLE-PHX: stays @ 1x daily, year-round
CLE-LAS: stays @ 10x weekly, year-round
Let me know if I missed any
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1385
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:25 pm

I was hoping you missed SAN but I don't think you did.

Many posted on here that MSP was cancelled last year, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I don't know how anyone could possibly know that F9 cancels anything given the nature of their route planning, and sure enough it was bad information.
 
corn4ahead
Posts: 79
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:29 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:00 pm

The Star wars plane is at CLE now.
 
masseybrown
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Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:15 pm

Thanks to flyPIT's post in the PIT thread ... "Justin Meyer, deputy aviation director for air service [in Kansas City], said he is talking with Southwest about adding nonstop flights to Raleigh-Durham, Pittsburgh and Cleveland, but the airline is concerned with small local market size. He said a single terminal that allowed for a better connecting experience could generate the passenger loads to add those flights, similar to what’s available in St. Louis."

WN has been beating up on Kansas City to build a terminal better suited to connections. I thought KC had already agreed to do so; but maybe not. ???

Ok, WN, put the connections at the CLE end of the route. Voila! :o
.
https://insiderfinancial.net/southwest- ... udy-2.html
 
jplatts
Posts: 3979
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:15 pm

masseybrown wrote:
Thanks to flyPIT's post in the PIT thread ... "Justin Meyer, deputy aviation director for air service [in Kansas City], said he is talking with Southwest about adding nonstop flights to Raleigh-Durham, Pittsburgh and Cleveland, but the airline is concerned with small local market size. He said a single terminal that allowed for a better connecting experience could generate the passenger loads to add those flights, similar to what’s available in St. Louis."

WN has been beating up on Kansas City to build a terminal better suited to connections. I thought KC had already agreed to do so; but maybe not. ???

Ok, WN, put the connections at the CLE end of the route. Voila! :o
.
https://insiderfinancial.net/southwest- ... udy-2.html


There is likely enough demand for WN to add MCI-CLE nonstop service as the PDEW on MCI-CLE was 93 passengers per day in Q2 2019. In addition, WN would be able to offer connections to the West Coast and Texas through MCI if it adds MCI-CLE nonstop service.

Even though the lack of CLE-MCI nonstop service is one of the biggest holes in both the CLE and MCI markets, I can understand WN not yet adding MCI-CLE nonstop service since (a) WN is still facing a plane shortage due to the 737 MAX grounding and (b) the new MCI terminal is scheduled to open in 2023.
 
masseybrown
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Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:47 pm

From the airport status board:
Delta 5530 Detroit, MI Due 1:20 PM Arrived 12:57 PM B04

Don't you love it when a flight with a 25 minute flight time arrives 23 minutes early. It makes me think every DTW destination except CLE was in a ground stop. :D
 
RJNUT
Posts: 1874
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 1:58 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:07 pm

masseybrown wrote:
Thanks to flyPIT's post in the PIT thread ... "Justin Meyer, deputy aviation director for air service [in Kansas City], said he is talking with Southwest about adding nonstop flights to Raleigh-Durham, Pittsburgh and Cleveland, but the airline is concerned with small local market size. He said a single terminal that allowed for a better connecting experience could generate the passenger loads to add those flights, similar to what’s available in St. Louis."

WN has been beating up on Kansas City to build a terminal better suited to connections. I thought KC had already agreed to do so; but maybe not. ???

Ok, WN, put the connections at the CLE end of the route. Voila! :o
.
https://insiderfinancial.net/southwest- ... udy-2.html



Old news. Kansas City new terminal is already under construction for Spring 2023 opening
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1385
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:01 pm

masseybrown wrote:
From the airport status board:
Delta 5530 Detroit, MI Due 1:20 PM Arrived 12:57 PM B04

Don't you love it when a flight with a 25 minute flight time arrives 23 minutes early. It makes me think every DTW destination except CLE was in a ground stop. :D


It's pretty typical for taxi time to exceed flight time on that one. I've always been surprised there aren't more seats on that route, you'd think Delta would love to steal away ORD connecting volume, in much the same way that AA has a lot of capacity on RDU CLT (9 mainline a day including some A321s) even though it's only a 2:15 drive airport to airport.
 
avtcle
Posts: 348
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:06 pm

I wouldn’t worry about CLE-SAN on Frontier, especially when examining their service in other cities Cleveland’s size. Cincinnati CVG is getting deep cuts by Frontier, ending routes from CVG to LGA, PHL, JAX & PUJ while reducing flights to SRQ & RDU.

As far as many of the other returning routes go, many seem to be starting unusually late... hopefully that changes (which is likely because the schedule is preliminary and only for DenDeals booking), or that means routes like CLE-SEA will only be running for 3 months.

I do remember Frontier didn’t load CLE-SAN into their booking system for summer 2019 until January 2019, when they announced CHS & SFO.
 
SgtBarone
Posts: 248
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:25 pm

Pictures of the Star Wars UA 737 from yesterday:

https://mobile.twitter.com/goingplacesC ... 9078007808
AGP ATL BCN BNA BOS CLE CLT DCA DEN FLG FLL FRA IAD IAH JAX LAS LAX LGB MAD MCI MDW MKE MUC PHX RDU RSW SEA SJU SLC SNA TPA
 
greenair727
Posts: 1494
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:33 pm

Another failure of CLE's route development group: AC announces YUL-BNA over CLE.

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/a ... 21971.html
 
AaronPGH
Posts: 575
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:13 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:11 pm

So any time an airline announces a new route that doesn't touch Cleveland, it's CLE's failure?
 
avtcle
Posts: 348
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:13 pm

August & September 2019 loads are here:

2019-08

United Airlines
CLE-MCO: 79%
CLE-RSW: 94%
CLE-LAX: 92%
CLE-SFO: 79% (Indicates 70 departures in August)
CLE-LGA: 84%
CLE-ORD: 82%
CLE-DCA: 72%
CLE-IAD: 86%
CLE-EWR: 81%
CLE-IAH: 79%
CLE-DEN: 93%
CLE-CHS: 92%
CLE-CUN: 83%

Frontier Airlines
CLE-MCO: 79%
CLE-TPA: 87%
CLE-RSW: 86%
CLE-SRQ: 72%
CLE-MSP: 91%
CLE-SFO: 78%
CLE-SAN: 93%
CLE-PHX: 88%
CLE-SEA: 93%
CLE-DEN: 92%
CLE-CHS: 83%
CLE-AUS: 96%
CLE-LAS: 87%
CLE-RDU: 87%
CLE-CUN: 68%
CLE-PUJ: 82%

Spirit Airlines
CLE-MCO: 83%
CLE-FLL: 82%
CLE-BOS: 90%
CLE-LAX: 82%
CLE-DFW: 90%
CLE-LAS: 81%
CLE-MSY: 78%
CLE-MYR: 87%
CLE-ATL: 81%

JetBlue Airways
CLE-FLL: 85%
CLE-BOS: 84%

Southwest Airlines
CLE-MCO: 86%
CLE-TPA: 72%
CLE-PHX: 92%
CLE-BNA: 81%
CLE-MDW: 72%
CLE-DEN: 89%
CLE-MKE: 63%
CLE-LAS: 91%
CLE-STL: 85%
CLE-ATL: 84%

Allegiant Airlines
CLE-SRQ: 91%
CLE-BNA: 77%
CLE-ORF: 81%
CLE-SAV: 73% (Keep in mind this route ran daily in August)
CLE-CHS: 84%
CLE-MYR: 71%
CLE-PIE: 83%
CLE-VPS: 85%
CLE-PGD: 90%
CLE-JAX: 89%
CLE-SFB: 93%

Delta Airlines
CLE-BOS: 92%
CLE-MSP: 90%
CLE-SLC: 92%
CLE-JFK: 80%
CLE-LGA: 74%
CLE-RDU: 62%
CLE-BDL: 75%
CLE-ATL: 86%
CLE-DTW: 86%

American Airlines
CLE-JFK: 75%
CLE-LGA: 75%
CLE-ORD: 84%
CLE-DCA: 59%
CLE-DFW: 82%
CLE-CLT: 84%
CLE-MIA: 89%
CLE-PHL: 73%

Air Canada
CLE-YYZ: 81%

Eastern Airlines LLC (operating for Vacation Express)
CLE-PUJ: 47%

International Route data is from 2019-05.
 
Trk1
Posts: 165
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:37 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:39 pm

Route additions are mainly done when the carriers determine that they can make money. We need to stop criticizing the airport management on route development. We fail to understand many areas are growing in population and we are stagnate. Canadian cities from the US at present are not doing very well with some exceptions that connect growing US cities. Cle to Montreal does not fit that profile no matter what some posters think. Our growth is only in leisure destinations. Look at the load factors to Business and government destinations and they are far lower than many airlines find acceptable even with higher business fares.
 
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stl07
Posts: 2609
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:50 pm

greenair727 wrote:
Another failure of CLE's route development group: AC announces YUL-BNA over CLE.

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/a ... 21971.html

Maybe BNA gave incentives that CLE lacked. Maybe AC got wind of a competitor wanting to add flights. Maybe there was simply more demand between Nashville and Montreal. Not anything to get upset over
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
greenair727
Posts: 1494
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:48 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
So any time an airline announces a new route that doesn't touch Cleveland, it's CLE's failure?


For a route CLE used to have for which there is current demand to fill at least one full aircraft and where the new service is given to a city that is smaller than Cleveland? Yes, of course.
 
greenair727
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:12 pm

Not much in the way of additions to CLE on enilria's weekly OAG list posted today:

DL CLE-DTW JUL 5>6[5] AUG 5>6[5] SEP 5>6[5]
 
masseybrown
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Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:48 pm

greenair727 wrote:
Not much in the way of additions to CLE on enilria's weekly OAG list posted today:

DL CLE-DTW JUL 5>6[5] AUG 5>6[5] SEP 5>6[5]


Another DTW flight is interesting. I always had the feeling - couldn't prove it from available data - that the CLE hub pulled more traffic away from DTW than from ORD and that Delta would benefit more from the closure in terms of traffic than United.
 
masseybrown
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Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:54 pm

DoT released September numbers. CLE showed 7,237K domestic pax for the 9 months. Last year the 4th quarter produced 2,275 domestic pax. So looking at a 8% bump in Q4,19 numbers (consistent with recent results), and adding about 160K international for the year, we don't quite get 10 million by DoT's count. Adding CLE's inclusion of charter and other pax,we probably do.
 
cledaybuck
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:58 pm

SgtBarone wrote:
Pictures of the Star Wars UA 737 from yesterday:

https://mobile.twitter.com/goingplacesC ... 9078007808

Wow! I thought the Cleveland sky in December was varying shades of grey, not blue. :D
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
umichman
Posts: 184
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:21 pm

ncflyer wrote:
It's pretty typical for taxi time to exceed flight time on that one. I've always been surprised there aren't more seats on that route, you'd think Delta would love to steal away ORD connecting volume, in much the same way that AA has a lot of capacity on RDU CLT (9 mainline a day including some A321s) even though it's only a 2:15 drive airport to airport.


AA CLT hub is a good deal larger than DL DTW hub (close to 50% larger -- 682 vs. 460 flights).
 
cledaybuck
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:29 pm

umichman wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
It's pretty typical for taxi time to exceed flight time on that one. I've always been surprised there aren't more seats on that route, you'd think Delta would love to steal away ORD connecting volume, in much the same way that AA has a lot of capacity on RDU CLT (9 mainline a day including some A321s) even though it's only a 2:15 drive airport to airport.


AA CLT hub is a good deal larger than DL DTW hub (close to 50% larger -- 682 vs. 460 flights).

And CLE-ORD has actual O&D, unlike DTW.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
AaronPGH
Posts: 575
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:13 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:45 pm

greenair727 wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
So any time an airline announces a new route that doesn't touch Cleveland, it's CLE's failure?


For a route CLE used to have for which there is current demand to fill at least one full aircraft and where the new service is given to a city that is smaller than Cleveland? Yes, of course.


1) The article had zero mention of Cleveland even being in the running. You inserted your own narrative.
2) CLE is no longer a hub. You can't compare this route in 2019, it's not the same situation.
3) Nashville is one of the fastest growing cities in the country, adding about 100 people to the metro area per day. Their economy is growing at breakneck speed, and they will likely surpass Columbus in metro size in the next few years.

There is a lot more to a route opening decision than just metro area size. It's about growth and strength of economies. You have to understand that while cities like CLE, PIT, CVG now have stable economies, they are *not* boomtowns. They have recovered, they are in transition. Over all, still stagnant. We can't hold a candle to places like Nashville, Denver, Austin, etc who are the new rising American cities. These places are always going to get these routes first. It's not a colossal "failure" of Cleveland's route development team.

Cleveland and other rust belt cities are lovely places to live. Personally, I much prefer this vibe to explosive growth cities - it's more friendly and established. There is no need to have this delusional inferiority complex constantly exhibited in this thread.
 
avtcle
Posts: 348
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:18 pm

https://www.anna.aero/2019/12/17/britis ... -st-louis/

Here’s an interesting stat from this article:

Between CMH, CVG, IND, STL, KCI, Cleveland has the highest demand to Europe overall than any of those other cities listed.

In the 12 months up to September 2019, 269,600 passengers flew between Cleveland and Europe.

The next city that even comes close to that number is St. Louis, at 260,700.

And in another note: I definitely don’t think the rumored new route for BA is STL or CVG. PDX is the next logical expansion point with low risk factor for the airline. CVG would be a bad choice. Their flight to CDG pulls decent loads, I don’t know why the airport would want to put that premium flight in jeopardy. All a flight to LHR would do for them is pull a lot of connecting traffic away from their DL CDG route.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5585
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:20 pm

^ The article doesn't treat traffic stimulation; the real market is probably much higher (for all the cities) than what is shown. In CLE's case, the proof is that in four and a half months of 2018, 51K O&D passengers flew CLE-KEF, which is almost 1.5 times the *annual* demand shown for London. The article also doesn't address the change in demand for London post-Brexit; the drop could be severe if the EU actively discourages connecting traffic.
 
avtcle
Posts: 348
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:02 pm

That’s exaclty why I didn’t look at the London demand — those #s wouldn’t be the same if we had actual service there. The overall European demand, however, would likely remain around the same.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1385
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:36 pm

Yes Massey, I hope the airlines consider how easy it is for CLE international traffic to leak to other markets. I'm sure we all know many leisure travelers who drive to PIT, DTW, YYZ for nonstop or cheaper fares. But given CLE's track record with international, there's no evidence that airlines consider leakage, maybe because premium travelers are less likely to make a drive. avtcle, I would assume some of the traffic stimulation on CLE-KEF was people vacationing in Europe/Iceland rather than other places around the globe they might choose.
 
737MAX7
Posts: 162
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:26 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:39 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
So any time an airline announces a new route that doesn't touch Cleveland, it's CLE's failure?


For a route CLE used to have for which there is current demand to fill at least one full aircraft and where the new service is given to a city that is smaller than Cleveland? Yes, of course.


1) The article had zero mention of Cleveland even being in the running. You inserted your own narrative.
2) CLE is no longer a hub. You can't compare this route in 2019, it's not the same situation.
3) Nashville is one of the fastest growing cities in the country, adding about 100 people to the metro area per day. Their economy is growing at breakneck speed, and they will likely surpass Columbus in metro size in the next few years.

There is a lot more to a route opening decision than just metro area size. It's about growth and strength of economies. You have to understand that while cities like CLE, PIT, CVG now have stable economies, they are *not* boomtowns. They have recovered, they are in transition. Over all, still stagnant. We can't hold a candle to places like Nashville, Denver, Austin, etc who are the new rising American cities. These places are always going to get these routes first. It's not a colossal "failure" of Cleveland's route development team.

Cleveland and other rust belt cities are lovely places to live. Personally, I much prefer this vibe to explosive growth cities - it's more friendly and established. There is no need to have this delusional inferiority complex constantly exhibited in this thread.
.

As someone who worked at CLE for 5 years and BNA for the last two the growth down here has been insane. The city is bursting at the seems, rent prices are through the roof, 900sq ft houses are going for $200K+ anywhere near downtown, East Nashville and the Nations area. The only thing Cleveland beats Nashville in is mass transit. I miss the RTA train all the time. Was always nice to hop on the train at the airport and head downtown. The interstates heading downtown here are awful from 3-7.
 
737MAX7
Posts: 162
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:26 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:41 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
So any time an airline announces a new route that doesn't touch Cleveland, it's CLE's failure?


For a route CLE used to have for which there is current demand to fill at least one full aircraft and where the new service is given to a city that is smaller than Cleveland? Yes, of course.


1) The article had zero mention of Cleveland even being in the running. You inserted your own narrative.
2) CLE is no longer a hub. You can't compare this route in 2019, it's not the same situation.
3) Nashville is one of the fastest growing cities in the country, adding about 100 people to the metro area per day. Their economy is growing at breakneck speed, and they will likely surpass Columbus in metro size in the next few years.

There is a lot more to a route opening decision than just metro area size. It's about growth and strength of economies. You have to understand that while cities like CLE, PIT, CVG now have stable economies, they are *not* boomtowns. They have recovered, they are in transition. Over all, still stagnant. We can't hold a candle to places like Nashville, Denver, Austin, etc who are the new rising American cities. These places are always going to get these routes first. It's not a colossal "failure" of Cleveland's route development team.

Cleveland and other rust belt cities are lovely places to live. Personally, I much prefer this vibe to explosive growth cities - it's more friendly and established. There is no need to have this delusional inferiority complex constantly exhibited in this thread.
.

As someone who worked at CLE for 5 years and BNA for the last two the growth down here has been insane. The city is bursting at the seems, rent prices are through the roof, 900sq ft houses are going for $200K+ anywhere near downtown, East Nashville and the Nations area. The only thing Cleveland beats Nashville in is mass transit. I miss the RTA train all the time. Was always nice to hop on the train at the airport and head downtown. The interstates heading downtown here are awful from 3-7. The growth here is nuts, the money coming in is nuts and that’s what BA, LH, KL etc are looking for.
 
avtcle
Posts: 348
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:09 pm

Some United schedule updates for CLE today:

CLE-TPA:
1x weekly (SAT ONLY), resumed December 7, 2019.
*Extended through May 2, 2020. Previous end date was March 28, 2020.

CLE-FLL:
1x daily, resumed December 4, 2019, ends May 7, 2020.
*Route switches to 8x weekly effective April 4, 2020, with 2 mainline departures on Saturday.

CLE-RSW:
8x weekly, resumed December 4, 2019, ends May 7, 2020.
*Route receives capacity increase effective April 4, 2020. 2nd Saturday departure switches from E170 to B737-700.

CLE-MCO:
7-8x weekly, year-round.
*route receives capacity increase effective April 4, 2020. 2nd Saturday departure switches front E170 to B737-900.
 
avtcle
Posts: 348
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:23 pm

Frontier is announcing new routes tomorrow...

Cleveland-Pensacola, FL just showed up as a ghost city pair in Frontier’s booking system. Likely a new route waiting to be scheduled.
 
greenair727
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:48 pm

^At first I thought not another Florida city---but I see that Pensacola is in a different part of Florida than all the others---so it could serve Tallahassee and Mobile, Alabama as well--so that is good. I hope that its daily.
 
Robert1010
Posts: 191
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:23 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:15 am

greenair727 wrote:
^At first I thought not another Florida city---but I see that Pensacola is in a different part of Florida than all the others---so it could serve Tallahassee and Mobile, Alabama as well--so that is good. I hope that its daily.

Seems right ! The gulf shores area is starting to become popular for us northerners , people starting to see how nice and not so crowded the 30A area is around Destin !
 
avtcle
Posts: 348
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:28 pm

Nothing from Frontier in their 25 route announcement today... We may be waiting until January again for CLEs announcement, like last year. I was hoping for SJU but they rolled out most of the Caribbean routes today.
 
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CLEguy
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:06 pm

And no CLE-LHR announcement on BA (not that I really expected one). PDX got that flight on BA starting in June 2020.
 
Robert1010
Posts: 191
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:23 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:23 pm

CLEguy wrote:
And no CLE-LHR announcement on BA (not that I really expected one). PDX got that flight on BA starting in June 2020.

I don’t ever ever see BA serving CLE , or any other Midwest / Rustbelt city ( besides PIT ) a subsidy , they didn’t serve CLE when there were 1st and 2nd generation immigrants here in 70s & 80s or when BP was HQ here , and don’t see em coming in once Cleveland Clinic London is built either !
 
avtcle
Posts: 348
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:37 pm

^agreed. Cleveland needs an airline that will agree to service w/o significant incentives. But, in all honesty, Cleveland doesn’t even have a chance of launching a nonstop flight to Europe until 2021.
 
kavok
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Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:57 am

Honestly, despite the Continental legacy, I truly believe CLE’s best chance for a business oriented TATL in the current market would be Delta to AMS/CDG. It would obviously take a subsidy, but if DL was willing to serve PIT and the legacy USAir FF base there, I am guessing they’d be willing to try CLE if the price was right, even with CVG and DTW nearby.

Otherwise, the best alternative is the return of a LCC like FI, EI, or Condor. I am not sure how appealing those carriers are to the business community though. The problem with UA/LH is their FRA hub is too far inland, creating a lot of backtracking on connections to key European destinations. But again, without the subsidies, I can’t see BA, DL, UA, or any other legacy airlines launching the service.
Last edited by kavok on Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Robert1010
Posts: 191
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:04 am

I agree with the DL idea , but not for paying for it , it should come naturally and I think it can , always thought a SEA-CLE-CDG would work !
 
ncflyer
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:15 am

Hate to say it but I’d put money on Columbus getting TATL service before Cleveland. Cleveland’s proximity to PIt and DTW along with the fact that the region is slow growing if at all is the reason. Oh yeah being the state capital has given Columbus advantage over advantage compared to Cleveland.
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:11 am

^If there is "state" money--that is money that comes from CLE and elsewhere, but controlled by the state, it would go to Columbus as the state favors the ol' cow town. That's why Cleveland (and Cinci) must be vigilant about any 'state' incentive funding programs. But on merits, CLE is more worthy than Columbus--not counting PIT and DTW, CLE is almost 2x a bigger market. Also, looking at the latest MSA GDP numbers, 2018 over 2017, Cleveland MSA (which is already bigger than Columbus's) grew more than Columbus did. CLE grew 1.9% and Columbus grew 1.8%. (Cinci grew 1.7%).
 
kavok
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:30 am

Robert1010 wrote:
I agree with the DL idea , but not for paying for it , it should come naturally and I think it can , always thought a SEA-CLE-CDG would work !


Like them or not, the incentives would probably be a necessity.
1) They are needed to move CLE up on Delta’s “where should I serve next list”. I don’t think CLE is anywhere close to the top of that list right now, and I am sure there is another market somewhere that would be happy to pay to be at the top of that list. But money talks, and if the price is right, CLE could be bumped to the top.

2) They provide a security cover to DL to launch the market. And while CLE definitely has the market size to fill a TATL flight, the real risk for DL is that should they launch service is that UA could always retaliate and also launch TATL service too. UA would then have an advantage with the local business community. There needs to be some financial cover for a few years until DL could develop enough of a market share with the local corporate contacts.
From UA’s current point of view, there is not a need to offer service because they still control the frequent flyer business market, and the EWR hub offers just as good connection opportunities equal to DL/AA from JFK/PHL. Basically UA has the CLE market captive, so no need to add new services. But should DL add TATL service, UA might quickly respond. Thus incentives are key to preserve DLs investment should that happen.
 
ncflyer
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Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:11 am

Interesting argument on UA. A counterpoint: UA offers zero TATL flights apart from hubs that I know of, have a hard time imagining they would change that to defend Cleveland. UA didn’t hesitate to handover Boston to Delta, opening a great new connecting hub for Clevelanders on Delta.
 
jplatts
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:46 am

ncflyer wrote:
Interesting argument on UA. A counterpoint: UA offers zero TATL flights apart from hubs that I know of, have a hard time imagining they would change that to defend Cleveland. UA didn’t hesitate to handover Boston to Delta, opening a great new connecting hub for Clevelanders on Delta.


LH adding CLE-FRA nonstop service is a possibility with LH already serving FRA nonstop from some non-UA hub airports in the US, including ATL, AUS, BOS, DFW, DTW, MIA, MCO, PHL, SAN, SEA, and TPA. LH would also be able to tap into UA's FF base in the CLE market by adding CLE-FRA nonstop service.

UA and its Star Alliance partners TP and SN already offer 1-stop connections to most of the major European destinations west of FRA from CLE through UA's IAD and EWR hubs.
 
Jshank83
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:57 am

Robert1010 wrote:
I agree with the DL idea , but not for paying for it , it should come naturally and I think it can , always thought a SEA-CLE-CDG would work !


If you wait for it to come naturally it isn’t ever going to come. That is one of the few things I guarantee.
 
masseybrown
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:22 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Robert1010 wrote:
I agree with the DL idea , but not for paying for it , it should come naturally and I think it can , always thought a SEA-CLE-CDG would work !


If you wait for it to come naturally it isn’t ever going to come. That is one of the few things I guarantee.


Did PDX have to pay for BA's route? Regardless, in the case of CLE, I think you are right. CLE has to buy at least the first route.

It's worth noting that PIT parties, having already paid DL for the successful and eventually subsidy-free PIT-CDG route, was willing to pay BA for LHR *even* at the cost of losing the DL route. Did they know DL would pull out? Were they even aware of the risk? I don't know.

Personally, I feel an EU route (CDG, AMS, or FRA) would have the best possibility of becoming self-sustaining and should be CLE's first step. LHR (or another London airport) could come (at a cheaper price?) after the Brexit dust settles.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5585
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:38 pm

The airport site has posted updated numbers through October, 2019. Total pax YTD 8,453K vs. 8,097K last year - up 4.39% Last Nov and Dec the traffic was 1,550K so if there is still 4% growth through the rest of the year, CLE will *just* break 10 million.

Nice numbers on the cargo side showing improved CLE regional economic activity relative to the country. YTD enplanements 72.0 million pounds up 6.12%, deplanements 76.7 million pounds up 4.65%, closing the export gap by about 2 million pounds.

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