ncflyer
Posts: 1202
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:46 pm

avtcle wrote:
No changes for CLE in the OAG thread this week... probably a good thing because a majority of changes this week are downgrades/cuts!


True but it would sure be nice if some of that AS metal being freed up would head our way. PIT CMH IND but not CLE?? Makes no sense.
 
CleSyrRoc
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 2:47 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:05 pm

Even if they aren't UA loyalists, CAK only has one flight per day. CLE has UA to EWR (7x) and LGA (5x), DL to JFK (x4) and LGA (x6), AA to JFK (x1) and LGA (x3). A lot more flexibility for where you want to end up in the NYC area and what time of the day you would like to get there.

That's part of the reason I'm surprised AA continues to serve CAK 1x/day. One would think the time-oriented business traveler would be more willing to head to CLE for a flight closer to the time of the day they would like to depart.
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:54 pm

^Yeah, you're right--that CAK-EWR was probably mostly for connections to elsewhere in the UA/Star network, as it was too restrictive for most travelers unless the time really did work for them, esp when compared to the options out of CLE.
 
marvinanderson1
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:39 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:13 pm

Well now with UA departing in May they may probably expand with more AA NY flights from CAK. Its interesting that CAK opening of its new gates have been moved from late 2020 to mid year 2020. So who knows what is happening there, but something is up. Its also a fact there is some CAK area flyers that will rarely if ever drive far north to CLE, and they have adjusted to a closer airport over closer a closer flight schedule.
 
avtcle
Posts: 145
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:57 pm

WN3751 performing the inaugural flight from Cleveland CLE to Dallas-Love Field DAL this evening.
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:05 pm

^is this the silly 1x weekly flight?
 
avtcle
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Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:25 pm

Indeed it is! Looks like it will run through February and then, according to SWA press release, go on a seasonal hiatus... Perhaps at summer return as daily?
 
737MAX7
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:26 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:33 am

avtcle wrote:
Indeed it is! Looks like it will run through February and then, according to SWA press release, go on a seasonal hiatus... Perhaps at summer return as daily?

SWA has cut a few cities from DAL so MAYBE will free up a a flight for CLE daily.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5384
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:58 pm

737MAX7 wrote:
avtcle wrote:
Indeed it is! Looks like it will run through February and then, according to SWA press release, go on a seasonal hiatus... Perhaps at summer return as daily?

SWA has cut a few cities from DAL so MAYBE will free up a a flight for CLE daily.


jplatts posted in the Southwest Network thread, " WN will also be resuming DAL-CLE Sunday-only nonstop service, starting on March 8th."

It's not in their schedule; but, assumng jplatts is correct, it's nice news. I just can't figure out who is the target passenger for this flight. Early afternoon departure from CLE; 6PM return from DAL - on Sundays. Dallas isn't a resort area. There are no Mexican connections. Who is on this plane???
 
ncflyer
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Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:25 pm

For those with a Crain's subscription, JobsOhio (a very cagey state agency-- but that's a whole separate discussion) is determining what its role should be in improving air service. Very nebulous-- they say they will "determine what the government's role should be." Seems like it's a multi-year process but at least it's on someone's mind at the state level. Such a tough issue, airlines don't need handouts, but sadly it seems the cost of doing business in nearby cities.

https://www.crainscleveland.com/governm ... nt-efforts
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:38 pm

^THIS is very important. There was another attempt at something like this recently---where the state said, 'we'll deal with the details later, lets such set up some cash.' This is critical, in that if any state money is used for air service, the rules of engagement MUST BE developed first---otherwise ALL THE MONEY will go to Columbus, as the state always favors Columbus as a city over Cleveland, as they relate to and understand Columbus, while Cleveland is more 'big city' and not what a lot of their rural perspectives align with. Also, they live in Columbus, so their is a self-serving angle as well. Once Columbus gets a TATL flight, it will doom CLE as an airline will expect people from Cleveland to drive two hours south for a nonstop to CDG/FRA/AMS/LHR/wherever, than vice versa. So it will be even more difficult for Cleveland to get a flight if Columbus---courtesy of Cleveland tax dollars--gets a flight. I would rather have no fund at all over one that gives Cleveland money to CMH to indirectly hurt the Cleveland economy. Please, all, be active in making sure this is done right.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1202
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:16 pm

Greenair you are 100% right-- and boy in my memory the state has given the shaft to NEO in so many ways. The other attempt you refer to was an effort by the Ohio Aviation Association to lobby the state legislature to include $15 or 20MM in the budget for purposes of attracting air service (and by the way that could have just as easily meant flights from dying airports like CAK, Youngstown, DAY to places already served out of the big 3 cities). To my knowledge, that proposal never went anywhere with the current biennial budget. The challenge is that JobsOhio has very little accountability to the public.
 
greenair727
Posts: 1299
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:44 pm

^Yes--that was it--the Ohio Aviation Association to lobby the state legislature to include $15 or 20MM in the budget--thanks--I didn't remember the details. And you're right about JobsOhio lack of public accountability--that's why we much convince them of the right thing to do. Its not only the fair thing, but the a failing or stagnant NEO economy is bad for all of the state and a healthy, growing NEO economy is good for all of the state. We must convince JobsOhio of this and directly connect this thinking with any subsidy around air service.
 
izbtmnhd
Posts: 875
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:26 pm

marvinanderson1 wrote:
Well now with UA departing in May they may probably expand with more AA NY flights from CAK. Its interesting that CAK opening of its new gates have been moved from late 2020 to mid year 2020. So who knows what is happening there, but something is up. Its also a fact there is some CAK area flyers that will rarely if ever drive far north to CLE, and they have adjusted to a closer airport over closer a closer flight schedule.


It's only a 30-40 min drive which separates the two airports. Are people near CAK really willing to fly to IAD and add 1hr+ to their flight to connect to NYC? The pool of people has to be pretty small.
 
masseybrown
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:28 pm

greenair727 wrote:
^THIS is very important. There was another attempt at something like this recently---where the state said, 'we'll deal with the details later, lets such set up some cash.' This is critical, in that if any state money is used for air service, the rules of engagement MUST BE developed first---otherwise ALL THE MONEY will go to Columbus,


Never forget Skybus. Nobody got fired over that one, either.
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:07 pm

I remember skybus....what a name... Did the state provide funding for that venture?
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:39 pm

New Frontier flights starting at CLE this week...

CLE-FLL: begins October 10th / 3x weekly A320
CLE-MIA: begins October 11th / 4x weekly A321
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 12
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:03 am

Was just reading the Jet Blue to London thread. Would a one stop B6 CLE - BOS - London (i.e. no plane change) work? I think Pan Am and TWA used to do that back in the day. I'm not even sure airlines do that anymore.
300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM
 
marvinanderson1
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:39 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:17 am

izbtmnhd wrote:
marvinanderson1 wrote:
Well now with UA departing in May they may probably expand with more AA NY flights from CAK. Its interesting that CAK opening of its new gates have been moved from late 2020 to mid year 2020. So who knows what is happening there, but something is up. Its also a fact there is some CAK area flyers that will rarely if ever drive far north to CLE, and they have adjusted to a closer airport over closer a closer flight schedule.


It's only a 30-40 min drive which separates the two airports. Are people near CAK really willing to fly to IAD and add 1hr+ to their flight to connect to NYC? The pool of people has to be pretty small.
Well at this point they have three flights, two on United and one on AA.to N.Y. Since this will not change until May who knows how many they will have at CAK. And beieve me its a lot more than 30-40 minutes from many points south to CLE and very inconvienent. Also with the Akron/ Canton governmens and busines communities pushing hard toward making Akron-Canton one metro area in the 2020 census, they are encouraging businesses in that area to support all things Akron/Canton, especially the airport. I don't know how many will comply but that is their goal. we shall see.
 
Jshank83
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Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:35 am

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Was just reading the Jet Blue to London thread. Would a one stop B6 CLE - BOS - London (i.e. no plane change) work? I think Pan Am and TWA used to do that back in the day. I'm not even sure airlines do that anymore.


Even if it the same plane, I think they usually make everyone get off now so they can check to make sure you have passports when you get on at the last domestic stop.
 
HPAEAA
Posts: 1114
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:44 am

Jshank83 wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
Was just reading the Jet Blue to London thread. Would a one stop B6 CLE - BOS - London (i.e. no plane change) work? I think Pan Am and TWA used to do that back in the day. I'm not even sure airlines do that anymore.


Even if it the same plane, I think they usually make everyone get off now so they can check to make sure you have passports when you get on at the last domestic stop.

I think these are pretty infrequent, and even for the flights that do exist, passengers are asked to deplane... for international, I can think of 2 reasons, 1. Usually a fresh crew is out on the plane before the longer flight, this would require passengers to exit anyways & 2. ETOPs checks which are required before the over water flight. I could see B6 marketing a single flight number CLE-BOS-LON however, it would likely require a change of plane in BOS
1.4mm and counting...
 
greenair727
Posts: 1299
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:20 pm

HPAEAA wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
Was just reading the Jet Blue to London thread. Would a one stop B6 CLE - BOS - London (i.e. no plane change) work? I think Pan Am and TWA used to do that back in the day. I'm not even sure airlines do that anymore.


Even if it the same plane, I think they usually make everyone get off now so they can check to make sure you have passports when you get on at the last domestic stop.

I think these are pretty infrequent, and even for the flights that do exist, passengers are asked to deplane... for international, I can think of 2 reasons, 1. Usually a fresh crew is out on the plane before the longer flight, this would require passengers to exit anyways & 2. ETOPs checks which are required before the over water flight. I could see B6 marketing a single flight number CLE-BOS-LON however, it would likely require a change of plane in BOS



Why would pax who boarded in CLE have to deboard in BOS? And what do ETOPS checks involve--does the plane need to be empty to perform them?

Additionally, on the return, all pax--including those destined to CLE--would have to deplane at BOS and clear FIS and then reboard. This would hold up the aircraft for a while as people move through the line, etc. before re-boarding for the hop to CLE.
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:36 pm

There must be something that requires the passengers to get off the plane and re-board. When I flew from FLL-SJU-STT (same plane, 1 stop), we had to get off the plane in Puerto Rico and we were allowed to board again in about 10 minutes.

The SJU-STT flight was about 12 minutes, and I’m pretty sure it only exists because of all the connecting traffic coming in from FLL.
 
highflier92660
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Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:16 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:04 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Was just reading the Jet Blue to London thread. Would a one stop B6 CLE - BOS - London (i.e. no plane change) work? I think Pan Am and TWA used to do that back in the day. I'm not even sure airlines do that anymore.


Cleveland-to-London via Boston aboard JetBlue would be an intriguing option. There would be a change of aircraft from an E190 to an ETOPS'ed Airbus A321LR but think of the reduced hassle through Newark or JFK.

In the seventies both TWA and Pan Am flew Boeing 707-320Bs from CLE-JFK, but both involved a change of aircraft at either the Saarinen (TWA) or Worldport (Pan Am) terminals. Shortly after they both downguaged to Boeing 727-200Adv aircraft. Subjectively Pan Am seemed the more opulent and exotic of the two air carriers. Even on a final leg to CLE of an international trip, the Pan Am flight attendants made the one-hour hop seem as if you originated in Frankfurt or Rome rather than JFK.
 
kavok
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:15 pm

avtcle wrote:
There must be something that requires the passengers to get off the plane and re-board. When I flew from FLL-SJU-STT (same plane, 1 stop), we had to get off the plane in Puerto Rico and we were allowed to board again in about 10 minutes.

The SJU-STT flight was about 12 minutes, and I’m pretty sure it only exists because of all the connecting traffic coming in from FLL.


Regardless, the simple economics of it are that an ETOPS plane going from BOS-LON is probably not the best equipment choice for also flying CLE-BOS. This isn’t WN, so different planes for different markets and stage lengths.


And since a connection has to be made anyway, is a B6 routing of CLE-BOS-LON really that much better than CLE-PIT/PHL/DTW/YYZ-LON ? As long as you are avoiding the delays of NYC, it all seems a wash as far as where to make a connection. At that point, schedule/price/carrier amenities become the deciding factors.., and not whether some carrier offers the same flight number on the onward connection.
 
joeman
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:15 pm

Pan Am did CLE-DTW-LGW with A310 before the demise and route transfer to DL. Eastbound, I don't think CLE bound passengers deplaned in DTW for customs but no local traffic DTW-CLE and they did customs in Cleveland. Like the MPS-DTW-LHR of yesteryear on a 707 and the last days of BA doing IAH-DTW-LHR with 767. Those kind of routes seem to be gone
 
fun2fly
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:00 pm

kavok wrote:
Regardless, the simple economics of it are that an ETOPS plane going from BOS-LON is probably not the best equipment choice for also flying CLE-BOS. This isn’t WN, so different planes for different markets and stage lengths. .


I'm not sure on this...depends on the equipment utilization. UA used to route the 757 to LON via EWR to get an extra turn out of it. If B6 had the 321 sitting in BOS or used on a CLE flight (realize they could use it anywhere, but that might be part of the marketing...nice plane all the way), it's opportunistic to use it.
 
masseybrown
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Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:34 pm

kavok wrote:
And since a connection has to be made anyway, is a B6 routing of CLE-BOS-LON really that much better than CLE-PIT/PHL/DTW/YYZ-LON ? As long as you are avoiding the delays of NYC, it all seems a wash as far as where to make a connection. At that point, schedule/price/carrier amenities become the deciding factors.., and not whether some carrier offers the same flight number on the onward connection.


I don't think anybody offers a CLE-PIT segment any more, but I get your point. US airlines don't like one-stop flights because it increases the odds the second leg will be delayed and rarely do they try to combine City A and City B passengers to justify the entire flight to City C.
 
masseybrown
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:35 pm

masseybrown wrote:
kavok wrote:
And since a connection has to be made anyway, is a B6 routing of CLE-BOS-LON really that much better than CLE-PIT/PHL/DTW/YYZ-LON ? As long as you are avoiding the delays of NYC, it all seems a wash as far as where to make a connection. At that point, schedule/price/carrier amenities become the deciding factors.., and not whether some carrier offers the same flight number on the onward connection.


I don't think anybody offers a CLE-PIT segment any more, but I get your point. US airlines don't like one-stop flights because it increases the odds the second leg will be delayed and, absent other connections, rarely do they try to combine City A and City B passengers to justify the entire flight to City C.
 
HPAEAA
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:20 pm

greenair727 wrote:
HPAEAA wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:


Even if it the same plane, I think they usually make everyone get off now so they can check to make sure you have passports when you get on at the last domestic stop.

I think these are pretty infrequent, and even for the flights that do exist, passengers are asked to deplane... for international, I can think of 2 reasons, 1. Usually a fresh crew is out on the plane before the longer flight, this would require passengers to exit anyways & 2. ETOPs checks which are required before the over water flight. I could see B6 marketing a single flight number CLE-BOS-LON however, it would likely require a change of plane in BOS



Why would pax who boarded in CLE have to deboard in BOS? And what do ETOPS checks involve--does the plane need to be empty to perform them?

Additionally, on the return, all pax--including those destined to CLE--would have to deplane at BOS and clear FIS and then reboard. This would hold up the aircraft for a while as people move through the line, etc. before re-boarding for the hop to CLE.

Regarding the pax, it would likely due to the crew change - when a new cabin crew comes on board they have to complete safety checks before passengers can be allowed on board the aircraft, Thru passengers would need to deplane. Regarding ETOPS, I think each airline is a bit different, but maintenance has to sign off before an ETOPS flight - one of my DFW-HKG flights had to do a gate return (after being pushed back 1/2 way down the flight line) after the captain announced the issue was resolved, it took about 30 mins for maintenance finish the ETOPS review to sign off on the plane before we could leave again, captain said it was due to the ETOPS checks & paperwork.
1.4mm and counting...
 
Link4444
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:55 am

marvinanderson1 wrote:
Well now with UA departing in May they may probably expand with more AA NY flights from CAK. Its interesting that CAK opening of its new gates have been moved from late 2020 to mid year 2020. So who knows what is happening there, but something is up. Its also a fact there is some CAK area flyers that will rarely if ever drive far north to CLE, and they have adjusted to a closer airport over closer a closer flight schedule.

I heard from AA employee that AA will have 2 of the new gates for there 11 daily CAK flights while DL will have 3 gates for there 3 daily flights. That’s some bad math. If true, is it defence? Trying to keep Moxy Air, etc out or are they really going to use them? I don’ understand why DL is even at CAK.
 
izbtmnhd
Posts: 875
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:35 pm

marvinanderson1 wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
marvinanderson1 wrote:
Well now with UA departing in May they may probably expand with more AA NY flights from CAK. Its interesting that CAK opening of its new gates have been moved from late 2020 to mid year 2020. So who knows what is happening there, but something is up. Its also a fact there is some CAK area flyers that will rarely if ever drive far north to CLE, and they have adjusted to a closer airport over closer a closer flight schedule.


It's only a 30-40 min drive which separates the two airports. Are people near CAK really willing to fly to IAD and add 1hr+ to their flight to connect to NYC? The pool of people has to be pretty small.
Well at this point they have three flights, two on United and one on AA.to N.Y. Since this will not change until May who knows how many they will have at CAK. And beieve me its a lot more than 30-40 minutes from many points south to CLE and very inconvienent. Also with the Akron/ Canton governmens and busines communities pushing hard toward making Akron-Canton one metro area in the 2020 census, they are encouraging businesses in that area to support all things Akron/Canton, especially the airport. I don't know how many will comply but that is their goal. we shall see.


OK, I'll admit I may have understated the travel time. With traffic it can be an hour, without it can be as quick as 45 minutes. This being said, it's still quicker than connecting at IAD which is what UA wants CAK-NYC travelers to do.

I really hope Akron and Canton business aren't being as provincial as you say and realize synergies with the Cleveland area would make the most sense, especially in the effort to get more flights and destinations to NE Ohio. I've always felt CLE/CAK should be served by single airport authority like DCA/IAD but I realize this will never happen.
 
User avatar
flyPIT
Posts: 1643
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:51 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
I really hope Akron and Canton business aren't being as provincial as you say and realize synergies with the Cleveland area would make the most sense, especially in the effort to get more flights and destinations to NE Ohio. I've always felt CLE/CAK should be served by single airport authority like DCA/IAD but I realize this will never happen.

I don't think that's a good analogy. Unlike CAK, both DCA and IAD are very busy and have their role in the Potomac region. In NE Ohio however, CLE offers the capacity to serve the entire region and will for many years ahead. If both CLE and CAK are under the same authority that authority will favor CLE every time. Might as well just close CAK to commercial operations. Just look at ONT when it was under the same authority as LAX and how it stagnated. Now that it is separate ONT is thriving, as is LAX.
FLYi
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:10 pm

^I agree. A single authority would hurt CAK not help it. By another analogy, if CLE and BKL were run by different authorities, BKL would have more commercial service today as it would be operating in competition. It would have maybe Allegiant or Porter or Spirit or some airline. Instead Port Control places everyone at CLE. And don't forget the secret deal with CO where they would not let anyone fly commercial out of BKL.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:19 pm

flyPIT wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
I really hope Akron and Canton business aren't being as provincial as you say and realize synergies with the Cleveland area would make the most sense, especially in the effort to get more flights and destinations to NE Ohio. I've always felt CLE/CAK should be served by single airport authority like DCA/IAD but I realize this will never happen.

I don't think that's a good analogy. Unlike CAK, both DCA and IAD are very busy and have their role in the Potomac region. In NE Ohio however, CLE offers the capacity to serve the entire region and will for many years ahead. If both CLE and CAK are under the same authority that authority will favor CLE every time. Might as well just close CAK to commercial operations. Just look at ONT when it was under the same authority as LAX and how it stagnated. Now that it is separate ONT is thriving, as is LAX.


It wasn't always this way. IAD, in it's early years, languished behind DCA for a significant amount of time and it felt like a white elephant because nobody knew large the metro would be. For example, in the 1970s the DC region was only 3 million with very slow (2-3%) growth. The area then had a population explosion in the 1980s driving the demand for international service which DCA couldn't provide.

For CLE/CAK the issue is despite higher CPE and an older facility most of the ULCCs and LCCs consolidated at CLE after the UA hub was reduced to a focus city. Not quite sure how CAK can thrive like ONT. Where can it go to get new service? I don't see a TPE flight going there anytime soon.

Regionalism would at least wrest the city of Cleveland from running the airport and possibly bring in some fresh ideas for CLE. This is why it'll never happen.
 
marvinanderson1
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:39 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:40 pm

No the reason why it will never happen is because CAK would never accept it. If there was a major airport in Richfield or somewhere like Macedonia ,or areas more centrally located that might be different. CLE Hopkins location would be a non-starter in any conversation of one NE Ohio airport. So what we have is CLE that has made good progress, and CAK whose leadership team have stated they have began to find their footing. So NE Ohio should be fortunate to have two viable airports as it is a large territory.
 
masseybrown
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:50 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
For CLE/CAK the issue is despite higher CPE and an older facility most of the ULCCs and LCCs consolidated at CLE after the UA hub was reduced to a focus city.


At the airline level, CPEs can vary sometimes widely. UA's CPE is no doubt the highest at CLE, since their still-extensive facilities are so underutilized. The ULCCs, being new players, got better utilization and probably better ticket and gate rental rates than the incumbent airlines were paying and a short-term break on landing fees for new service. Their CPEs are much lower than UA's.
 
avtcle
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Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:07 am

With Frontier launching CLE-FLL and CLE-MIA this week, here's the loads from the last time they operated these routes:

CLE-MIA
2017-11: 73% (Only competing with American)
2017-12: 87%
2018-01: 68%
2018-02: 80%
2018-03: 85%
2018-04: 72%

CLE-FLL
2014-06: 90% (Only competing with United)
2014-07: 88%
2014-08: 93%
2014-09: 80%
2014-10: 92%
2014-11: 89%
2014-12: 95%
2015-01: 88%
2015-02: 79% (Spirit launches CLE operation -- including CLE-FLL)
2015-03: 89%
2015-04: 78% (JetBlue launches CLE operation -- including CLE-FLL)
2015-05: 74%
 
avtcle
Posts: 145
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:15 am

A stats dump just came in -- 2 months of new load factors from Cleveland!

Here's the first set from June 2019:
2019-06

Frontier Airlines
CLE-SAN: 95%
CLE-AUS: 87%
CLE-MSP: 80% (This route ended permanently last week.)
CLE-RDU: 85%
CLE-MCO: 93%
CLE-SEA: 94%
CLE-SFO: 87%
CLE-PUJ: 86% (2019-03)
CLE-LAS: 95%
CLE-PHX: 89%
CLE-RSW: 93%
CLE-SRQ: 87%
CLE-TPA: 90%
CLE-DEN: 90%
CLE-CUN: 78% (2019-03)
CLE-CHS: 71%

United Airlines
CLE-CHS: 98% (Pulling better loads and more PAX than last year, now with F9 and G4 competing)
CLE-MCO: 92%
CLE-RSW: 93%
CLE-SFO: 90%
CLE-IAH: 87%
CLE-ORD: 85%
CLE-DEN: 94%
CLE-EWR: 86%
CLE-LGA: 89%
CLE-IAD: 91%
CLE-DCA: 76%
CLE-LAX: 93%
CLE-CUN: 93% (2019-03)

Spirit Airlines
CLE-MCO: 90%
CLE-LAS: 89%
CLE-DFW: 89%
CLE-ATL: 82%
CLE-MSY: 73%
CLE-BOS: 82%
CLE-MYR: 91%
CLE-LAX: 94%
CLE-FLL: 93%

Southwest Airlines
CLE-LAS: 89%
CLE-PHX: 93%
CLE-RSW: 87%
CLE-DEN: 89%
CLE-TPA: 78%
CLE-BNA: 84% (Allegiant peeling away at Southwest's CLE-BNA traffic... down 6% from 2018-06)
CLE-ATL: 82%
CLE-MKE: 75%
CLE-STL: 87%
CLE-BWI: 80%
CLE-MDW: 76%

Delta Airlines
CLE-RDU: 65%
CLE-ATL: 88%
CLE-MSP: 92%
CLE-SLC: 92%
CLE-BDL: 75%
CLE-BOS: 91% (Wow! Community reaction to this new service has been incredible.)
CLE-LGA: 87%
CLE-JFK: 87%
CLE-DTW: 89%

American Airlines
CLE-DFW: 87%
CLE-ORD: 88%
CLE-LGA: 82%
CLE-JFK: 88%
CLE-DCA: 70%
CLE-MIA: 90%
CLE-PHL: 85%
CLE-CLT: 91%

JetBlue Airways
CLE-BOS: 85%
CLE-FLL: 89%

Allegiant Airlines
CLE-SRQ: 94%
CLE-SAV: 74% (This ran daily in June. Pretty good result!)
CLE-BNA: 74%
CLE-CHS: 84%
CLE-ORF: 81% (Surprised at this! Good little niche addition for Allegiant.)
CLE-PGD: 93%
CLE-PIE: 93%
CLE-SFB: 92%
CLE-VPS: 93%
CLE-JAX: 88%
CLE-MYR: 81%

Air Canada
CLE-YYZ: 64% (2019-03)
 
corn4ahead
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:29 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:47 am

CLE to YYZ is concerning especially considering the CRJ1/2 being utilized on the route.
 
avtcle
Posts: 145
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:52 am

Cities Cleveland's size, (CMH,IND,PIT,CVG) all have YYZ loads in the 60s in 2019-03. Same deal for each city: high frequency and crazy high fares. They make good money on all the routes because the fares provide plenty of a buffer. ^
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1202
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:03 am

Thank you AVTCLE good stuff.

The fares to YYZ are positively ridiculous I'm sure that AC is very happy with those loads. It has to be-- by a long way-- the most expensive route out of CLE.

I remember saying how crummy loads were to NYC in the winter. Never thought of NYC has much of a seasonal route but it is.

Still a head scratcher that UA gave up on BOS, their loads were excellent until they did, and DL seems to have not missed a beat-- and in fact Delta now has new one stop options to Europe that surely hurt UA-- because BOS is a more reliable connecting airport than EWR.

I don't see how ULCC's make money on routes with loads approaching 80%. CLE-MSY and BOS on NK, CLE CHS on F9, CLE SAV, BNA, ORF on Allegiant, they are light loads for ULCC. For the most part F9 and NK routes have excellent loads.

I also don't see why DL keeps BDL and RDU, these loads have always been light. Somehow they dropped IND after a very short time, yet these two are worth keeping? I'l take it I use both of them but I feel like the routes are living on borrowed time.
 
avtcle
Posts: 145
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:57 am

June 2019 numbers are a few posts above ^^^
Coming here are load factors from July 2019, which were also just released:
2019-07

Frontier Airlines
CLE-SEA: 97% (Unbelievable we still don't have year-round SEA service.)
CLE-SAN: 96%
CLE-PHX: 95%
CLE-TPA: 93%
CLE-MCO: 93%
CLE-LAS: 92%
CLE-SFO: 92%
CLE-DEN: 90%
CLE-AUS: 89% (Frontier absorbing Allegiant's AUS traffic well.)
CLE-RSW: 89%
CLE-RDU: 88%
CLE-SRQ: 86%
CLE-PUJ: 85% (2019-04)
CLE-MSP: 84%
CLE-CHS: 76%
CLE-CUN: 71% (2019-04)

United Airlines
CLE-LAX: 95% (Can certainly see why UA had planned a 3rd daily LAX flight before MAX issues!)
CLE-DEN: 95%
CLE-RSW: 94%
CLE-MCO: 93%
CLE-CHS: 93%
CLE-SFO: 92% (SFO could use more summer frequencies...)
CLE-IAH: 89%
CLE-IAD: 88%
CLE-ORD: 85%
CLE-EWR: 85%
CLE-CUN: 79% (2019-04)
CLE-LGA: 79%
CLE-DCA: 70%

Southwest Airlines
CLE-MCO: 94%
CLE-ATL: 90%
CLE-DEN: 89%
CLE-LAS: 89%
CLE-PHX: 86%
CLE-BNA: 86%
CLE-TPA: 84%
CLE-STL: 82%
CLE-BWI: 80%
CLE-MDW: 74%
CLE-MKE: 71%

Allegiant Airlines
CLE-SRQ: 94%
CLE-SFB: 92%
CLE-PGD: 92%
CLE-JAX: 91%
CLE-VPS: 91%
CLE-PIE: 89%
CLE-MYR: 85%
CLE-CHS: 85%
CLE-BNA: 81%
CLE-ORF: 80%
CLE-SAV: 77% (Keep in mind that CLE-SAV ran daily this summer, and double daily on weekends!)

Delta Airlines
CLE-SLC: 93%
CLE-MSP: 93%
CLE-ATL: 90%
CLE-BOS: 90%
CLE-DTW: 85%
CLE-JFK: 82%
CLE-LGA: 75%
CLE-BDL: 73%
CLE-RDU: 72%

Spirit Airlines
CLE-FLL: 95%
CLE-MYR: 94%
CLE-DFW: 92%
CLE-LAX: 92%
CLE-ATL: 86%
CLE-MCO: 85%
CLE-BOS: 83%
CLE-LAS: 81%
CLE-MSY: 73%

American Airlines
CLE-DFW: 87%
CLE-MIA: 86%
CLE-CLT: 86%
CLE-ORD: 85%
CLE-PHL: 84%
CLE-LGA: 76%
CLE-JFK: 76%
CLE-DCA: 67%

JetBlue Airways:
CLE-FLL: 91% (I was one of these passengers!)
CLE-BOS: 89%

Air Canada
CLE-YYZ: 62% (2019-04)
 
uconn99
Posts: 371
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:52 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:11 am

ncflyer wrote:
Thank you AVTCLE good stuff.

The fares to YYZ are positively ridiculous I'm sure that AC is very happy with those loads. It has to be-- by a long way-- the most expensive route out of CLE.

I remember saying how crummy loads were to NYC in the winter. Never thought of NYC has much of a seasonal route but it is.

Still a head scratcher that UA gave up on BOS, their loads were excellent until they did, and DL seems to have not missed a beat-- and in fact Delta now has new one stop options to Europe that surely hurt UA-- because BOS is a more reliable connecting airport than EWR.

I don't see how ULCC's make money on routes with loads approaching 80%. CLE-MSY and BOS on NK, CLE CHS on F9, CLE SAV, BNA, ORF on Allegiant, they are light loads for ULCC. For the most part F9 and NK routes have excellent loads.

I also don't see why DL keeps BDL and RDU, these loads have always been light. Somehow they dropped IND after a very short time, yet these two are worth keeping? I'l take it I use both of them but I feel like the routes are living on borrowed time.


Low % loads don't mean the flight isnt making money. BDL-CLE on Delta has been operating for over 5 years and there is a history of airlines flying this route for the past 30+ years. BDL is a strong DL market and the corporate traffic between Cleveland and Hartford allows the flight to be profitable. Delta would not be flying this route for the past 5 years if it wasn't making money. I am sure the same could be said for RDU and LGA which also can have low loads out of CLE on DL.
 
User avatar
CLEguy
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:50 pm

[quote="avtcle"]June 2019 numbers are a few posts above ^^^
Coming here are load factors from July 2019, which were also just released:
2019-07

This info is great. Thanks for posting it! I may have asked before, but can't remember, what is the source for this data? Is it readily accessible to anyone? I've seen T-100 data from BTS, but found the search very cumbersome and user-unfriendly.
 
tphuang
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:26 pm

ncflyer wrote:
Thank you AVTCLE good stuff.

The fares to YYZ are positively ridiculous I'm sure that AC is very happy with those loads. It has to be-- by a long way-- the most expensive route out of CLE.

I remember saying how crummy loads were to NYC in the winter. Never thought of NYC has much of a seasonal route but it is.

Still a head scratcher that UA gave up on BOS, their loads were excellent until they did, and DL seems to have not missed a beat-- and in fact Delta now has new one stop options to Europe that surely hurt UA-- because BOS is a more reliable connecting airport than EWR.

I don't see how ULCC's make money on routes with loads approaching 80%. CLE-MSY and BOS on NK, CLE CHS on F9, CLE SAV, BNA, ORF on Allegiant, they are light loads for ULCC. For the most part F9 and NK routes have excellent loads.

I also don't see why DL keeps BDL and RDU, these loads have always been light. Somehow they dropped IND after a very short time, yet these two are worth keeping? I'l take it I use both of them but I feel like the routes are living on borrowed time.


just to give some contexts to Q2 numbers on BOS-CLE.

CityPairDist Carrier Board AvgFare NSFare ConnFare% NS PerFlightDepartures LF Yield
BOSCLE 563 B6 48896 162.33 162.33 0 100.00% 100.2 568 85.93% 139.49
BOSCLE 563 DL 30514 162.27 160.16 195.59 94.06% 75.9 466 86.22% 138.1

And this is from a year ago
BOSCLE 563 B6 46235 159.22 159.22 0 100.00% 100.8 512 89.60% 142.66
BOSCLE 563 UA 18648 213.11 212.64 215.73 84.73% 50.5 404 91.39% 194.33
Yes, UA was using a smaller aircraft so had higher cost, but their yield was 41% higher than what DL got. Pretty hard to make the case that somehow DL did not miss a beat here.

And here is CLE-FLL. This is probably a break even kind of route for B6. They are definitely not exiting this route.
FLLCLE 1062 B6 24159 150.43 149.83 292.57 99.59% 150.8 182 88.03% 131.9
FLLCLE 1062 NK 34192 65.83 65.9 64.4 95.17% 182 209 89.87% 59.22
FLLCLE 1062 UA 8361 181.09 172.72 210.26 77.70% 179 56 83.41% 144.07
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1202
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:45 pm

AVTCLE how do you know MSP is gone next year? (of course any decision by F9 could be fleeting).

I can never tell the difference between seasonal flights and routes ending on F9. MSP was paired with RDU this year, but obviously there are other possible pairings with RDU for next summer, if in fact MSP is cut permanently.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1202
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:25 pm

Don’t remember this has been pointed out but looks like F9 is already scaling back to FLL to 2x per week starting in mid November. There are an awful lot of seats to southeast FL from CLE, I’m not entirely surprised. In addition to F9s service to PBI and MIA, which surely competes with FLL, NK is double daily this winter, that’s new this year.
 
CleSyrRoc
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 2:47 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:31 pm

A bit late, but looks like a mixed bag of news for CLE in the latest OAG updates:

AA CLE-CLT FEB 6>7[7] MAR 6>7[7] APR 6>7[7] MAY 6>7[7] JUN 6>7[6] JUL 6>7[6]
AA CLE-DFW JAN 4>2[3]
*AA CLE-JFK JAN 1.6>0[3] FEB 2>1.2[3

Gain one to CLT but losing two to DFW and possibly some frequencies to JFK. Not sure whether to believe the JFK cut in January or not, it looks like they are still scheduling in February.

F9 CLE-CUN MAR 0.2>0.4[0.4]
F9 CLE-DEN MAR 0.2>0.5[0.4]
F9 CLE-FLL MAR 0.1>0.3[0]
F9 CLE-MCO MAR 0.5>1.5[1.3]
F9 CLE-MIA MAR 0.2>0.5[0]
F9 CLE-PHX MAR 0.4>1.0[1.0]
F9 CLE-PUJ MAR 0.2>0.5[0.4]
F9 CLE-RSW MAR 0.7>2[1.0]
F9 CLE-TPA MAR 0.7>1.7[0.9]

April was a partial month so I didn't include it. Some good year on year increases.
 
greenair727
Posts: 1299
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:35 pm

CleSyrRoc wrote:
A bit late, but looks like a mixed bag of news for CLE in the latest OAG updates:

AA CLE-CLT FEB 6>7[7] MAR 6>7[7] APR 6>7[7] MAY 6>7[7] JUN 6>7[6] JUL 6>7[6]
AA CLE-DFW JAN 4>2[3]
*AA CLE-JFK JAN 1.6>0[3] FEB 2>1.2[3

Gain one to CLT but losing two to DFW and possibly some frequencies to JFK. Not sure whether to believe the JFK cut in January or not, it looks like they are still scheduling in February.


Is AA in trouble or is this just a Cleveland thing? DFW is a major hub for them--dropping to two daily flights when they have a monopoly is sign that something is up. And zero to JFK? That's even crazier.

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