SgtBarone
Posts: 240
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:20 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:32 pm

ncflyer wrote:
There seemed to be some objection on here to discussing Sherwin Williams on an airline chat board. I don't share that objection, as S-W has a far bigger impact on air travel in CLE than 2 bit flight schedules from Allegiant. . . .

In any case, the four cities rumored to be under consideration outside of Ohio are all mega hubs (ATL, DFW, IAH, CLT), and furthermore the site selection expert mentions international air service as something that may be driving SW to consider other cities.

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local ... 364f2b6012

If CLE loses all or part of S-W, it will be a classic case of the rich getting richer-- the rich being those cities in our country that have airline hubs (plus a few areas like Austin and RDU whose airports are really moving in a nice direction).

John Boyd (a consultant) is the source of these statements and has said the same things across multiple publications. However, he has done little to no fact finding and doesn’t cite anything to back up his opinions. All he’s doing is throwing out the most obvious cities for a potential relocation: growing cities in the south and southeast with hub airports.
AGP ATL BCN BNA BOS CLE CLT DCA DEN FLG FLL FRA IAD IAH JAX LAX LGB MAD MCI MDW MKE MUC PHX RDU RSW SEA SJU SLC SNA TPA
 
izbtmnhd
Posts: 899
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:34 pm

SW moving is a huge story for the region and certainly relevant to CLE operations.
But....How tall will their HQ building be? Where will they move downtown? Plugging real-estate websites and blogs. Not really av-related.

Boyd and the blogger aren't the issue. News sources releasing articles with one source and a "no comment" from SW execs is where the real problem lies.
WKYC was trying to get the big scoop and just ended up confusing everyone in the end.

I just hope some of this information now released to the public, if correct, isn't used against the city to create a better bid elsewhere.

Also, I'm struggling seeing DY coming to CLE. I'm not sure they're worth it now anyway, they may not even be around this time next year.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:34 pm

I was just out walking my dog (3:20pm) and I hear a loud roar overhead. Looking up in the faint overcast, I see 2 contrails from fast movers heading east - they looked a lot like B-1B's. Shortly behind by a half mile, come 2 more although they were in a looser formation. The wings were not swept all the way back - more like a Citation X. Loud and high. Only the first two were trailing contrails which were wide which would explain 4 engines. Was I seeing things?
300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM
 
klm617
Posts: 4676
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:45 pm

avtcle wrote:
Norwegian says it’s emerging strongly from it’s poor financial position after renegotiating loans and restructuring its network. They just had their most profitable quarter in the carrier’s history for Q3 2019.

Today they announced AUS-CDG service... Could Norwegian find a niche in CLE? 787 service, or perhaps wait until the 737 MAX is back? Just some thoughts because it seems we’ll once again be without TATL service for summer 2020 — Unless the MAX is garunteed to return before summer by European regulators, in which Icelandair could be back. Enilria noted a few days ago that he was told CLE would be back if the MAX was back.



I think CLE-LGW on DY is the best fit. It links CLE with the biggest aviation market in Europe. 3 weekly in the summer and 2 weekly in the winter should be doable without question.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
jplatts
Posts: 2960
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:51 pm

WN had said in yesterday's earnings call that it is planning on significantly expanding HOU. WN had also previously said that it was considering adding CLE-HOU nonstop service two years ago (Source: https://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.ssf/2017/10/whats_next_for_cleveland_hopki.html). CLE is one of the top destinations traveled to from HOU that WN doesn't currently serve nonstop from HOU.

I could see WN adding CLE-HOU nonstop service with WN having plans to significantly expand at HOU and with WN previously stating that it was considering serving HOU nonstop from CLE.
 
izbtmnhd
Posts: 899
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:22 pm

jplatts wrote:
WN had said in yesterday's earnings call that it is planning on significantly expanding HOU. WN had also previously said that it was considering adding CLE-HOU nonstop service two years ago (Source: https://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.ssf/2017/10/whats_next_for_cleveland_hopki.html). CLE is one of the top destinations traveled to from HOU that WN doesn't currently serve nonstop from HOU.

I could see WN adding CLE-HOU nonstop service with WN having plans to significantly expand at HOU and with WN previously stating that it was considering serving HOU nonstop from CLE.


I noticed you mentioned a BWI WN expansion on the DC/VA/MD thread as well. How are they going to do this? Especially with the MAX out of service indefinitely.
 
jplatts
Posts: 2960
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:51 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
I noticed you mentioned a BWI WN expansion on the DC/VA/MD thread as well. How are they going to do this? Especially with the MAX out of service indefinitely.


WN had said in yesterday's earnings call that WN is currently expecting to have some 737 MAX 8 planes back in service in February 2020, even though WN might update its February and March 2020 flight schedules if necessary. WN had also said that the FAA had received the final software update and related documentation for the 737 MAX from Boeing this week, and that the FAA is currently in the process of certifying the 737 MAX software changes.
 
avtcle
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:31 pm

UA CLE-IAH APR 4>3[5] MAY 4>3[5] JUN 4>3[5] JUL 4>3[5]
UA CLE-ORD APR 9>8[8] JUN 9>8[9] JUL 9>8[8]
*UA CLE-RSW APR 0.2>1.0[1.1] MAY 0>0.2[0]

Only changes for CLE this week.

CLE-IAH changes: This is WRONG. The UA booking system still has 4 daily to IAH scheduled.
CLE-ORD changes: This route goes ALL MAINLINE beginning April!
CLE-RSW: Daily service extended through May 7... are they testing it out for year-round? They operated it Saturday-only last summer.

In other news, it’s appears CMH-SFO & CVG-SFO are on the chopping block
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1239
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:44 pm

At the moment PIT SFO is double daily during the week but CLE SFO is only single daily, less desirable evening departure compared to the AM which has been the standard for many many years. (That’s what PIT was when sfo started, evening only). Wasn’t there fanfare when CLE SFO was announced as double daily a few years back? PIT has a more vibrant tech industry for sure, for what that’s worth.
 
avtcle
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:02 pm

Not too concerned about the SFO changes.

PIT-SFO returns to 1x daily on January 6, 2020 and won’t return to 2x daily until March 9, 2020.

CLE-SFO returned to 1x daily on October 14, 2019, and it returns to 2x daily on February 10, 2020.

In the big picture, both will see about the same yearly seats, with the 2nd daily flight varying in end/resumption dates between the 2 cities.

Also —per usual— United will have CLE-SFO at 2x daily week of Thanksgiving and Christmas.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5404
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:13 pm

I’m guessing UA’s IAH reduction reflects the decline of fracking as well as WN starting up CLE-HOU, assuming the MAX gets back into the air according to WN’s prediction.

Nice news about the London Stock Exchange opening in Cleveland. It won’t produce a world of traffic CLE-LHR, but it all counts. 8-)
 
avtcle
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:28 pm

The move by the London Stock Exchange was indeed interesting... expected to produce 40 new jobs next year with 5 mil. annual payroll. Great news for Cleveland, nonetheless!
 
Trk1
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:37 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:39 pm

There is no Ua CLE to IAH fight reduction. The OAG thread that is posted has an error that is system wide. The error is that new express jet adds this weekend on E175
aircraft are not included system wide. The additions are rather large with 6 new aircraft. The Spring schedule is posted with 4 daily and the summer schedule is not posted at present but has expect as normal the 5th to be added.. Note that 12 additional 319's and over 12 addition 737-700 will be in the fleet by June even if new MAXes are not in service by that point so schedules are fluid.
 
greenair727
Posts: 1324
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:32 pm

masseybrown wrote:
I’m guessing UA’s IAH reduction reflects the decline of fracking as well as WN starting up CLE-HOU, assuming the MAX gets back into the air according to WN’s prediction.

Nice news about the London Stock Exchange opening in Cleveland. It won’t produce a world of traffic CLE-LHR, but it all counts. 8-)


There may not be a lot of new CLE-LHR traffic (though some), but if CLE is the center for deals all over the US, Central America and South America, there should be increased traffic within the Western Hemisphere to/from CLE. The PD (no surprise) is incorrectly reporting this as a "North American HQ"; its not, its their Americas HQ, which is very big deal.
 
avtcle
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:55 pm

“Cleveland’s large frequent flyer base is the reason the carrier continues to fly nonstop to several top leisure markets, including Fort Myers, Fort Lauderdale and Orlando.

But travelers shouldn’t expect much more than additional capacity to United hubs in the near future. “I don’t see that changing anytime soon,” he said, adding, “There’s only so much we can grow.””

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.clevel ... utType=amp
 
avtcle
Posts: 190
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:57 pm

^RE above: only so much room to grow?? They’re growing everywhere else so I guess he just meant for CLE...
 
steeler83
Posts: 7661
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:05 pm

avtcle wrote:
“Cleveland’s large frequent flyer base is the reason the carrier continues to fly nonstop to several top leisure markets, including Fort Myers, Fort Lauderdale and Orlando.

But travelers shouldn’t expect much more than additional capacity to United hubs in the near future. “I don’t see that changing anytime soon,” he said, adding, “There’s only so much we can grow.””

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.clevel ... utType=amp

At least they are flying to quite a few leisure markets from CLE. Besides their token presence on PIT-CUN, AA doesn't serve any of those markets from PIT anymore.

Point being: UA is treating their CLE FF base better than AA is treating their FFs out of PIT. Then again, I suppose they do have access to the weekly BA flights. I also think the line "having only so much room to grow" mainly applies to specific city pairs out of CLE.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
User avatar
flyPIT
Posts: 1717
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:49 am

steeler83 wrote:
. Besides their token presence on PIT-CUN, AA doesn't serve any of those markets from PIT anymore.

What token AA presence on PIT-CUN?
FLYi
 
greenair727
Posts: 1324
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:43 pm

steeler83 wrote:

Point being: UA is treating their CLE FF base better than AA is treating their FFs out of PIT. Then again, I suppose they do have access to the weekly BA flights. I also think the line "having only so much room to grow" mainly applies to specific city pairs out of CLE.


I don't think its about treating a FF base well or not, UA is only serving those CLE-Florida routes because they are profitable to UA.

This statement of theirs, "There’s only so much we can grow.” is a belittling statement to make. It either says "You're Cleveland---so.....there's only so much we can do that is possible" or "You're Cleveland--so why would we restore routes that are needed or profitable for CLE, like MCI or LHR, when we could instead build up IAD or ORD?" Either way, its talking down to Cleveland that has supported their product for so many years and while many continue to do so.
 
VetteDude
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:13 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:07 pm

greenair727 wrote:
steeler83 wrote:

Point being: UA is treating their CLE FF base better than AA is treating their FFs out of PIT. Then again, I suppose they do have access to the weekly BA flights. I also think the line "having only so much room to grow" mainly applies to specific city pairs out of CLE.


I don't think its about treating a FF base well or not, UA is only serving those CLE-Florida routes because they are profitable to UA.

This statement of theirs, "There’s only so much we can grow.” is a belittling statement to make. It either says "You're Cleveland---so.....there's only so much we can do that is possible" or "You're Cleveland--so why would we restore routes that are needed or profitable for CLE, like MCI or LHR, when we could instead build up IAD or ORD?" Either way, its talking down to Cleveland that has supported their product for so many years and while many continue to do so.


It's not belittling, Cleveland is not a person. The facts are, the Cleveland airport has historically been managed quite poorly, the city government meddles way too much, and the facilities are outdated and fees are much too high for the condition and size of the airport. The hub lived and died by the 50 seat ERJ45 and United had a ton of operational problems where it made the most sense to cut that flying. A 50 seater hub will not return, and United is behind Delta in terms of backfilling flying with small narrowbodies, so they have bigger fish to try than growing Cleveland at this time. I wouldn't rule it out in the future and as a CLE native I'd love to see a legacy have a sizable focus city/hub presence but it's not the in the cards right now and won't be until the airport leadership gets serious about cleaning up its act and looking to the future in a realistic way.

IMO point to point (O&D) flying out of Cleveland is probably about maxed out. I mean how many more cities can fill a 737/A320 on daily service? Even WN has been hesitant to add new routes out of Cleveland and the MKE point to point route hasn't had the greatest loads.
 
avtcle
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:33 pm

^In regard to a route that could fill a daily 737/A320 there are certainly many. Cleveland top underserved/unserved routes that could support daily service include —
2018 stats
    CLE-SEA: 224 PPD (Frontier 4x weekly seasonal)

    Cleveland to Seattle is WILDLY underserved. Take a look at CMH and PIT stats, both of which have daily service to Seattle with Alaska.
    PIT-SEA: 134 PPD
    CMH-SEA: 213 PPD

      CLE-SAN: 214 PPD(Frontier 3x weekly seasonal)
        CLE-PDX: 198 PPD (UNSERVED)
          CLE-SJU: 151 PPD (UNSERVED)
            CLE-SJC: 143 PPD (UNSERVED)
              CLE-AUS: 121 PPD (Frontier 3x weekly seasonal)
                CLE-SAT: 108 PPD (UNSERVED)
                And of course Cleveland to Europe. In this case we can specifically look at Cleveland to Reykjavik stats.

                CLE-KEF: 307 PPD (6 months beginning 05-2018)

                In regard to SWAs CLE-MKE route... Airlines don’t fly routes for fun. If it wasn’t making money it wouldn’t still be flying at 2x daily as it has for the past 2 years.
                 
                jplatts
                Posts: 2960
                Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:50 pm

                In addition to CLE-SEA/SAN/PDX/SJU/SJC/AUS/SAT, MCI is one of the top destinations without nonstop service out of CLE with a PPDEW of 91 PPD in Q4 2018.
                 
                jplatts
                Posts: 2960
                Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:23 pm

                VetteDude wrote:
                A 50 seater hub will not return, and United is behind Delta in terms of backfilling flying with small narrowbodies, so they have bigger fish to try than growing Cleveland at this time. I wouldn't rule it out in the future and as a CLE native I'd love to see a legacy have a sizable focus city/hub presence but it's not the in the cards right now and won't be until the airport leadership gets serious about cleaning up its act and looking to the future in a realistic way.

                IMO point to point (O&D) flying out of Cleveland is probably about maxed out. I mean how many more cities can fill a 737/A320 on daily service? Even WN has been hesitant to add new routes out of Cleveland and the MKE point to point route hasn't had the greatest loads.


                There are a few more nonstop routes that could be added by WN out of CLE such as CLE-AUS, CLE-HOU, CLE-MCI, CLE-LAX, and CLE-SAN as AUS, HOU, MCI, LAX, and SAN are five of the top destinations that WN doesn't currently serve nonstop from CLE.

                WN also has a customer base in the CLE market to support additional nonstop routes such as CLE-AUS/HOU/MCI/LAX/SAN due to WN already operating a few nonstop routes out of CLE that aren't served nonstop by competitors such as CLE-BWI, CLE-MKE, and CLE-STL.

                CLE also already has more demand for domestic air travel than most of the nearby markets such as CVG, CMH, IND, and PIT to support additional WN service out of CLE.

                I do not expect AA to establish a focus city at CLE with point-to-point nonstop routes to non-hub destinations as AA doesn't currently operate any point-to-point nonstop routes to non-hub destinations out of any of its Midwestern airports. While I do not ever expect AA to serve destinations other than its hubs nonstop from CLE, AA adding CLE-LAX nonstop service is a possibility with AA having more market share at LAX than any other carrier.

                There are a few more adds that could be made by DL out of CLE such as CLE-LAX, CLE-SEA, and a few point-to-point nonstop routes. Most of the possible adds that could be made by DL out of CLE could also be made by WN, NK, AA, or other airlines.
                 
                SgtBarone
                Posts: 240
                Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:20 pm

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:40 pm

                800 Degree Woodfired Kitchen just opened between Gates A1 and A3. This is a new build that was previously a seating area:

                https://www.instagram.com/p/B4P1ODxpZZG ... ms84d6o77x
                AGP ATL BCN BNA BOS CLE CLT DCA DEN FLG FLL FRA IAD IAH JAX LAX LGB MAD MCI MDW MKE MUC PHX RDU RSW SEA SJU SLC SNA TPA
                 
                VetteDude
                Posts: 94
                Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:13 pm

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:27 pm

                avtcle wrote:

                In regard to SWAs CLE-MKE route... Airlines don’t fly routes for fun. If it wasn’t making money it wouldn’t still be flying at 2x daily as it has for the past 2 years.


                That was the whole point of my post. United isn't going to add routes to CLE for fun.
                 
                avtcle
                Posts: 190
                Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:37 pm

                No one on this forum said they want United to bring back routes to Cleveland that wouldn’t be profitable — they’re talking about markets that could be profitable for United, and certainly were in the past.

                Here’s some examples:
                United Airlines loads summer 2013
                CLE-SEA
                2013-06: 93%
                2013-07: 91%
                2013-08: 86%
                CLE-PDX
                2013-06: 91%
                2013-07: 91%
                2013-08: 89%
                CLE-SJU:
                2013-06: 92%
                2013-07: 93%
                2013-08: 92%
                 
                jplatts
                Posts: 2960
                Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:45 pm

                avtcle wrote:
                No one on this forum said they want United to bring back routes to Cleveland that wouldn’t be profitable — they’re talking about markets that could be profitable for United, and certainly were in the past.

                Here’s some examples:
                United Airlines loads summer 2013
                CLE-SEA
                2013-06: 93%
                2013-07: 91%
                2013-08: 86%
                CLE-PDX
                2013-06: 91%
                2013-07: 91%
                2013-08: 89%


                AS adding CLE-SEA and CLE-PDX nonstop service are possibilities since (a) AS has hubs at SEA and PDX, (b) AS already has a FF base in the Pacific Northwest to support CLE-SEA and CLE-PDX nonstop service, and (c) AS already serves SEA and PDX nonstop from other Midwestern cities.

                AS is also more likely to add CLE-SEA than UA is as UA's remaining nonstop routes out to CLE are mostly to UA hubs, Florida, LGA (in the same market as UA's EWR hub), and DCA (in the same market as UA's IAD hub).
                 
                CleSyrRoc
                Posts: 42
                Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 2:47 pm

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:15 pm

                Per the Plain Dealer - Sherwin Williams to stay in CLE, build new HQ

                https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2019/10 ... s-say.html

                Good news for CLE.
                 
                VetteDude
                Posts: 94
                Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:13 pm

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:44 pm

                avtcle wrote:
                No one on this forum said they want United to bring back routes to Cleveland that wouldn’t be profitable — they’re talking about markets that could be profitable for United, and certainly were in the past.

                Here’s some examples:
                United Airlines loads summer 2013
                CLE-SEA
                2013-06: 93%
                2013-07: 91%
                2013-08: 86%
                CLE-PDX
                2013-06: 91%
                2013-07: 91%
                2013-08: 89%
                CLE-SJU:
                2013-06: 92%
                2013-07: 93%
                2013-08: 92%


                You (or someone else, I am not going to bother to check) just got done telling me that loads don't = profitability? United doesn't have the fleet or operational excellence at this time to run a bunch of point-to-point out of CLE. They need to bulk up their hubs first and foremost. THAT is the most profitable use and best opportunity cost for the fleet.
                 
                avtcle
                Posts: 190
                Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:24 pm

                Good news about Sherwin Williams... from what I understand the state really showed them the money — as they should’ve!

                If they could put the same commitment/funding towards air service maybe we could actually get a coveted nonstop to LHR or CDG.
                 
                avtcle
                Posts: 190
                Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:54 pm

                Sun Country is announcing 4 new destinations on November 5... With Frontier out of the Cleveland-Minneapolis market there’s certainly room for a LCC on the route. Hopefully CLE can pick up!
                 
                izbtmnhd
                Posts: 899
                Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:06 pm

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:31 pm

                VetteDude wrote:
                avtcle wrote:
                No one on this forum said they want United to bring back routes to Cleveland that wouldn’t be profitable — they’re talking about markets that could be profitable for United, and certainly were in the past.

                Here’s some examples:
                United Airlines loads summer 2013
                CLE-SEA
                2013-06: 93%
                2013-07: 91%
                2013-08: 86%
                CLE-PDX
                2013-06: 91%
                2013-07: 91%
                2013-08: 89%
                CLE-SJU:
                2013-06: 92%
                2013-07: 93%
                2013-08: 92%


                You (or someone else, I am not going to bother to check) just got done telling me that loads don't = profitability? United doesn't have the fleet or operational excellence at this time to run a bunch of point-to-point out of CLE. They need to bulk up their hubs first and foremost. THAT is the most profitable use and best opportunity cost for the fleet.


                An addtional issue with CLE-SEA, PDX and somewhat SJU is fleet utilization. These are much longer flights than those going to Florida. If UA is going to stick a 737 or A320 on a domestic long haul, it's more likely going to be from an official hub no matter the yield a specific flight leg generates from CLE.

                Awesome news about Sherwin Williams. Still nervous until we get an official announcement.
                 
                avtcle
                Posts: 190
                Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:36 pm

                Spirit Airlines is expanding its daily nonstop service from Cleveland to Tampa to year round! Look out Frontier! Cleveland to Tampa is one of Frontiers strongest markets here.
                 
                cledaybuck
                Posts: 1581
                Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:42 pm

                avtcle wrote:
                Good news about Sherwin Williams... from what I understand the state really showed them the money — as they should’ve!
                Not sure i agree with the above. I understand the reality of yhe situation, but I hate the "we are going to move, give us money" game.
                As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
                 
                avtcle
                Posts: 190
                Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:23 pm

                In Spirit's latest 2020 schedule extension this morning here is the rundown for CLE:
                ATL: 1x daily, year round (no change)
                BOS: 1x daily, seasonal (resumes April 22, 2020 -- 2 weeks earlier than this year)
                FLL: 2x daily, year round (up from 10x weekly last summer)
                RSW: 1x daily, seasonal (no change)
                DFW: 1x daily, seasonal (resumes April 22, 2020 -- 2 weeks earlier than this year)
                MCO: 18x weekly, year round (up from 13x weekly this year)
                CUN: 4x weekly, year round (new addition!)
                LAS: 1x daily, year round (no change)
                LAX: 1x daily, year round (no change)
                MSY: 3x weekly, year round (no change)
                TPA: 1x daily, year round (extended from seasonal)
                MYR: 3x weekly beginning in March, switches to 1x daily in April, seasonal (3 weeks earlier than this year)
                 
                greenair727
                Posts: 1324
                Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:04 pm

                ^Small, cautious growth, but welcome nonetheless. CLE-MCO must be very popular route for them. CUN must be a long flight on those seats!
                 
                avtcle
                Posts: 190
                Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:38 am

                United has removed Cancun from its route map from Cleveland--San Juan remains, however. This would be a smart swap for United, considering theres 50,000+ indirect passengers from CLE to SJU per year and there is NO service. United is also advertising CLE-SJU flights on its website on “Destinations Departing from Cleveland, OH, US (CLE)”

                Have yet to find one in the schedule.

                United is also axing flights from CUN to AUS, MSY and SAT.
                 
                krod031
                Posts: 132
                Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:49 am

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:38 pm

                Sun Country coming to CLE. Service starts 5/29. Looks like it operates on Sun and Fri and can book thru 8/23/20.
                Outbound: CLE-MSP Dep 1240 - Arr 1340
                Return: MSP-CLE Dep 1645 - Arr 1940
                 
                avtcle
                Posts: 190
                Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:07 pm

                Awesome news for CLE, and perfect timing after we just lost Frontier on the MSP route! Hopefully will book strong, and can operate year-round! Sun Country offers some great winter destinations to connect to from MSP.
                 
                User avatar
                CLEguy
                Posts: 261
                Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 pm

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:20 pm

                krod031 wrote:
                Sun Country coming to CLE. Service starts 5/29. Looks like it operates on Sun and Fri and can book thru 8/23/20.
                Outbound: CLE-MSP Dep 1240 - Arr 1340
                Return: MSP-CLE Dep 1645 - Arr 1940


                A new airline is great, but only 2 days/week to a business destination? I wish them luck!
                 
                avtcle
                Posts: 190
                Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:25 pm

                Most Sun Country destinations are on a limited schedule. AUS-MSP, for example, is only 2x weekly. Frontier always pulled good loads from CLE to MSP at 4x weekly so I don’t see why Sun Country can’t make it work. New airline always welcome news!
                 
                ncflyer
                Posts: 1239
                Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:48 pm

                There’s “limited schedule” and there’s “what’s the point”. But I guess ya gotta start somewhere.
                 
                krod031
                Posts: 132
                Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:49 am

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:52 pm

                And it could be early, but looking at it, they are NOT offering connections....
                 
                avtcle
                Posts: 190
                Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:56 pm

                Geez it’s a new airline. If y’all just want to look at the downside of everything then forget it. Sun Country wouldn’t be adding the route if there wasn’t proof of demand and profitability in the market... STL/BNA started with 2x weekly MSP service and grew — slow growth is smart growth.
                 
                CleSyrRoc
                Posts: 42
                Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 2:47 pm

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:04 pm

                Great news! Always nice to see new carriers entering the market!

                All we need now is Alaska to start service...
                 
                swacle
                Posts: 501
                Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:41 pm

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:37 pm

                krod031 wrote:
                Sun Country coming to CLE. Service starts 5/29. Looks like it operates on Sun and Fri and can book thru 8/23/20.
                Outbound: CLE-MSP Dep 1240 - Arr 1340
                Return: MSP-CLE Dep 1645 - Arr 1940


                So does it sit for 17 hours or is it maybe tag flights from charters?
                Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
                 
                krod031
                Posts: 132
                Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:49 am

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:44 pm

                avtcle wrote:
                Geez it’s a new airline. If y’all just want to look at the downside of everything then forget it. Sun Country wouldn’t be adding the route if there wasn’t proof of demand and profitability in the market... STL/BNA started with 2x weekly MSP service and grew — slow growth is smart growth.


                Nobody here is disputing that new service isnt bad... But its interesting that its only 2x weekly (One day being on a Sunday) and doesnt offer connections...

                swacle wrote:
                krod031 wrote:
                Sun Country coming to CLE. Service starts 5/29. Looks like it operates on Sun and Fri and can book thru 8/23/20.
                Outbound: CLE-MSP Dep 1240 - Arr 1340
                Return: MSP-CLE Dep 1645 - Arr 1940


                So does it sit for 17 hours or is it maybe tag flights from charters?


                And now looking at it, they revised the times. Looking at 6/12

                Outbound: CLE-MSP Dep 1235 - 1334
                Return: MSP-CLE Dep 0850 - 1138
                 
                SgtBarone
                Posts: 240
                Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:20 pm

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:06 pm

                CLEguy wrote:
                krod031 wrote:
                Sun Country coming to CLE. Service starts 5/29. Looks like it operates on Sun and Fri and can book thru 8/23/20.
                Outbound: CLE-MSP Dep 1240 - Arr 1340
                Return: MSP-CLE Dep 1645 - Arr 1940


                A new airline is great, but only 2 days/week to a business destination? I wish them luck!


                This is perfect for seeing friends/family in either city for a weekend (I will be taking advantage of this). Business travelers can use any of Delta’s 4x daily flights.
                AGP ATL BCN BNA BOS CLE CLT DCA DEN FLG FLL FRA IAD IAH JAX LAX LGB MAD MCI MDW MKE MUC PHX RDU RSW SEA SJU SLC SNA TPA
                 
                jplatts
                Posts: 2960
                Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:21 pm

                SgtBarone wrote:
                This is perfect for seeing friends/family in either city for a weekend (I will be taking advantage of this). Business travelers can use any of Delta’s 4x daily flights.


                In addition to the DL and SY CLE-MSP nonstops, AA, UA, and WN all already offer 1-stop connecting service to MSP from CLE through Chicago.
                 
                krod031
                Posts: 132
                Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:49 am

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

                Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:31 pm

                jplatts wrote:
                SgtBarone wrote:
                This is perfect for seeing friends/family in either city for a weekend (I will be taking advantage of this). Business travelers can use any of Delta’s 4x daily flights.


                In addition to the DL and SY CLE-MSP nonstops, AA, UA, and WN all already offer 1-stop connecting service to MSP from CLE through Chicago.



                Wow! Really?

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