masseybrown
Posts: 5404
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:29 pm

CLEguy wrote:
krod031 wrote:
Sun Country coming to CLE. Service starts 5/29. Looks like it operates on Sun and Fri and can book thru 8/23/20.
Outbound: CLE-MSP Dep 1240 - Arr 1340
Return: MSP-CLE Dep 1645 - Arr 1940


A new airline is great, but only 2 days/week to a business destination? I wish them luck!


The Sherwin Williams-Valspar merger moved several hundred execs to Cleveland from Minneapolis and some the other way. It's fair to guess a lot of new family visits will follow in the market. Enough for two bargain flighs a week for 10 weeks of summer? Probably.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3018
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:32 pm

avtcle wrote:
Geez it’s a new airline. If y’all just want to look at the downside of everything then forget it. Sun Country wouldn’t be adding the route if there wasn’t proof of demand and profitability in the market... STL/BNA started with 2x weekly MSP service and grew — slow growth is smart growth.


STL started with routes to Florida. MSP came later at 4x a week. BNA also started with a bunch of Florida routes (but MSP might have been included). That all said I would be happy with any new airline starting service, small schedule or not.
 
SgtBarone
Posts: 240
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:20 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:21 pm

Construction progress on the new Mexican restaurant going into the former Winner’s spot in the banjo:

https://www.instagram.com/p/B4hpgC0pSy6 ... pyftzsj48a
AGP ATL BCN BNA BOS CLE CLT DCA DEN FLG FLL FRA IAD IAH JAX LAX LGB MAD MCI MDW MKE MUC PHX RDU RSW SEA SJU SLC SNA TPA
 
joeman
Posts: 834
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:37 pm

avtcle wrote:
Geez it’s a new airline. If y’all just want to look at the downside of everything then forget it. Sun Country wouldn’t be adding the route if there wasn’t proof of demand and profitability in the market... STL/BNA started with 2x weekly MSP service and grew — slow growth is smart growth.

Thanks for always keeping an upbeat contribution avtcle. I'm with you, in my opinion any additional service or even try beyond a hub stranglehold is great for anywhere!
 
greenair727
Posts: 1324
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:29 pm

I agree, the addition of any new safe/reputable airline is good news. Which gate(s) and what ticket counter space will Sun Country use?
 
avtcle
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:07 pm

I would guess the ticket counters that WOW/Icelandair used, since they have the screens that can switch what airline wants to use them^
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1239
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:43 pm

http://neo-trans.blogspot.com/

If you want to feel bullish about CLE. Very specific details about SW HQ, other new or moving from the suburb jobs downtown, and most of exciting of all, nicely substantiated rumors about what will happen to the two vacant Ford plants in the county-- game changer for generations one can hope, especially given that the company mentioned, Rivian, has substantial backing from Ford and Amazon. I suppose I need to make my post about airlines and airports so I'll just say, as I've said before, these types of activities will dwarf the impact to air travel in CLE of any Allegiant schedule change or Sun Country announcement. . . . and it would put to rest any fantasy some might have (me too) about using the Ford land to expand airport property and/or facilities. Also would put to rest some rumors that VW plants on the site would create demand for service to FRA.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1507
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:43 pm

Redevelopment of the 2m sq ft Ford plant is on par with the SW building in CLE. Add in the Ford Avon expansion of $900mm, that's a lot of good work for Clevelanders for the next 1-3 years, as well as for people going into/out of CLE.
 
izbtmnhd
Posts: 899
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:53 pm

ncflyer wrote:
http://neo-trans.blogspot.com/

If you want to feel bullish about CLE. Very specific details about SW HQ, other new or moving from the suburb jobs downtown, and most of exciting of all, nicely substantiated rumors about what will happen to the two vacant Ford plants in the county-- game changer for generations one can hope, especially given that the company mentioned, Rivian, has substantial backing from Ford and Amazon. I suppose I need to make my post about airlines and airports so I'll just say, as I've said before, these types of activities will dwarf the impact to air travel in CLE of any Allegiant schedule change or Sun Country announcement. . . . and it would put to rest any fantasy some might have (me too) about using the Ford land to expand airport property and/or facilities. Also would put to rest some rumors that VW plants on the site would create demand for service to FRA.


I'm assuming SW is staying because the PD article has multiple unnamed sources. We still haven't heard anything official yet from the company but I'm quietly optimistic.

As for Rivian, this guy is the only "news" source. There's nothing, even speculative, on the entire Interwebz suggesting this company is in the process of buying the Brook Park and Walton Hills plants. So while I agree something like Rivian would help move the needle at CLE, there's very little to see here right now.

The G4 and SY additions/changes to the CLE operation are real moves. While small now, they can lead to bigger things, especially in the case of Sun Country.
 
corn4ahead
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:29 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:50 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
The G4 and SY additions/changes to the CLE operation are real moves. While small now, they can lead to bigger things, especially in the case of Sun Country.


Call me pessimistic, but didn't we all say the same thing about B6?
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1507
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:56 pm

corn4ahead wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
The G4 and SY additions/changes to the CLE operation are real moves. While small now, they can lead to bigger things, especially in the case of Sun Country.


Call me pessimistic, but didn't we all say the same thing about B6?


B6 is one of the most 'frustrating' adds for me...so much potential, no real growth. I understand the JFK absence as it was a miserable year there with construction (see AA cuts), so we remain hopeful for the future and some real connection opportunities via JFK.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1239
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:16 pm

My frustration is WN-- not much growth in CLE after UA closed it's hub, they were either beaten to the punch by F9/NK or not interested or both. CLE is a smaller station than PIT and CMH and IND. B6 doesn't have much of a network outside of JFK to grow in to, and for that matter, neither does SY.

I realize the blogger has no one to back up his claims about Rivian, but he's very forward about the speculative nature of his article. He presents well reasoned evidence, particularly what's happening at Ford Avon Lake and how that might relate.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5404
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:25 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
As for Rivian, this guy is the only "news" source. There's nothing, even speculative, on the entire Interwebz suggesting this company is in the process of buying the Brook Park and Walton Hills plants.


What is known is that *something* is going on with Engine Two and Walton Hills. Rumors of a sale of both of those properties to a single buyer have been percolating since last spring. Rumors, yes, but well-sourced. Stan Bullard of Crain's Cleveland has reported them and he's no Chatty Cathy. Rivian comes into the picture because they (and pretty much they alone) fit the profile of who might be the buyer. All rumors have predicted an end-of-the-year reveal, so we don't have long to wait.

B6 disappointment is understandable. There are (or were at one time) some easy pickings in CLE for them. JFK, MCO, SJU, even LGB perhaps. But other things were more important and CLE didn't get much attention. Still it should have been B6, and not NK, adding the second daily FFL. I doubt B6 will look with much favor on Cleveland until they are grasping at straws. (Not something I'm hoping for.)
 
CleSyrRoc
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 2:47 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:26 pm

I agree with the B6 Disapointment. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure it was recently discussed that they are increasing their service to BOS from CLE. Could be worse.

Alaska is one of the last domestic carriers not serving CLE. They would be contenders to serve both CLE-PDX and SEA. On the other hand, Delta has ambitions in both of those markets and could also seek to start service. SEA especially would give CLE nice one-stop options to Asia. No matter what, I hope the next announcemenets we hear are RE more service to the PNW.
 
izbtmnhd
Posts: 899
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:53 pm

masseybrown wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
As for Rivian, this guy is the only "news" source. There's nothing, even speculative, on the entire Interwebz suggesting this company is in the process of buying the Brook Park and Walton Hills plants.


What is known is that *something* is going on with Engine Two and Walton Hills. Rumors of a sale of both of those properties to a single buyer have been percolating since last spring. Rumors, yes, but well-sourced. Stan Bullard of Crain's Cleveland has reported them and he's no Chatty Cathy. Rivian comes into the picture because they (and pretty much they alone) fit the profile of who might be the buyer. All rumors have predicted an end-of-the-year reveal, so we don't have long to wait.

B6 disappointment is understandable. There are (or were at one time) some easy pickings in CLE for them. JFK, MCO, SJU, even LGB perhaps. But other things were more important and CLE didn't get much attention. Still it should have been B6, and not NK, adding the second daily FFL. I doubt B6 will look with much favor on Cleveland until they are grasping at straws. (Not something I'm hoping for.)


I cross checked Stan with Brook Park and Walton Hills. Just an article on the Brook Park plant sale itself, nothing else. No article with rumors AFAIK.

Also, even if Rivian bought the plants tomorrow they are not moving their corporate offices to the Cleveland area. It will be a boost for the local economy but how much it drives F/J class travel is definitely to be determined.

SY and B6 are disappointing because they started CLE service? I mean B6 avoids Midwest/Great Lakes cities like the plague yet CLE has BOS/FLL. Where should they fly? CLE-MCO is overloaded. LGB is a dying focus city. JFK only became a possible add recently as AA was covering the route pretty well. I'm not too upset at their service level considering UA still won't quite completely walk from CLE either.

In some ways I wish UA would just go to hubs only instead of this mostly Florida destinations focus city nonsense. I think there's a wait-and-see attitude at CLE from other carriers because UA won't make CLE a true spoke.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5404
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:28 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
As for Rivian, this guy is the only "news" source. There's nothing, even speculative, on the entire Interwebz suggesting this company is in the process of buying the Brook Park and Walton Hills plants.


What is known is that *something* is going on with Engine Two and Walton Hills. Rumors of a sale of both of those properties to a single buyer have been percolating since last spring. Rumors, yes, but well-sourced. Stan Bullard of Crain's Cleveland has reported them and he's no Chatty Cathy. Rivian comes into the picture because they (and pretty much they alone) fit the profile of who might be the buyer. All rumors have predicted an end-of-the-year reveal, so we don't have long to wait.

B6 disappointment is understandable. There are (or were at one time) some easy pickings in CLE for them. JFK, MCO, SJU, even LGB perhaps. But other things were more important and CLE didn't get much attention. Still it should have been B6, and not NK, adding the second daily FFL. I doubt B6 will look with much favor on Cleveland until they are grasping at straws. (Not something I'm hoping for.)


I cross checked Stan with Brook Park and Walton Hills. Just an article on the Brook Park plant sale itself, nothing else. No article with rumors AFAIK.

Also, even if Rivian bought the plants tomorrow they are not moving their corporate offices to the Cleveland area. It will be a boost for the local economy but how much it drives F/J class travel is definitely to be determined.

SY and B6 are disappointing because they started CLE service? I mean B6 avoids Midwest/Great Lakes cities like the plague yet CLE has BOS/FLL. Where should they fly? CLE-MCO is overloaded. LGB is a dying focus city. JFK only became a possible add recently as AA was covering the route pretty well. I'm not too upset at their service level considering UA still won't quite completely walk from CLE either.

In some ways I wish UA would just go to hubs only instead of this mostly Florida destinations focus city nonsense. I think there's a wait-and-see attitude at CLE from other carriers because UA won't make CLE a true spoke.


Here's one example when Bulard discusses both plants. https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-es ... ohio-sites
If this comes to fruition, I don't think the payoff will be HQS jobs, but lots of ex-UAW workers may be able to get back better jobs than they have now. A little boost for F/J service; but a nice boost for the ULCCs.

I agree MCO is overserved, but it wasn't when B6 first started in CLE, Same goes for JFK which some use in preference to LGA. It is true CLE is keeping FLL, while PIT lost it (DTW too? I forget if they ever flew that route.) Susan Glaser in a recent cleveland.com piece reported that UA folks told her that CLE keeps UA Florida routes as mileage rewards to try to keep their frequent flyers base happy. The implication is that when the FF basw attrites, so will the Florida routes. At least that's how I read it.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5404
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:29 pm

masseybrown wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
masseybrown wrote:

What is known is that *something* is going on with Engine Two and Walton Hills. Rumors of a sale of both of those properties to a single buyer have been percolating since last spring. Rumors, yes, but well-sourced. Stan Bullard of Crain's Cleveland has reported them and he's no Chatty Cathy. Rivian comes into the picture because they (and pretty much they alone) fit the profile of who might be the buyer. All rumors have predicted an end-of-the-year reveal, so we don't have long to wait.

B6 disappointment is understandable. There are (or were at one time) some easy pickings in CLE for them. JFK, MCO, SJU, even LGB perhaps. But other things were more important and CLE didn't get much attention. Still it should have been B6, and not NK, adding the second daily FFL. I doubt B6 will look with much favor on Cleveland until they are grasping at straws. (Not something I'm hoping for.)


I cross checked Stan with Brook Park and Walton Hills. Just an article on the Brook Park plant sale itself, nothing else. No article with rumors AFAIK.

Also, even if Rivian bought the plants tomorrow they are not moving their corporate offices to the Cleveland area. It will be a boost for the local economy but how much it drives F/J class travel is definitely to be determined.

SY and B6 are disappointing because they started CLE service? I mean B6 avoids Midwest/Great Lakes cities like the plague yet CLE has BOS/FLL. Where should they fly? CLE-MCO is overloaded. LGB is a dying focus city. JFK only became a possible add recently as AA was covering the route pretty well. I'm not too upset at their service level considering UA still won't quite completely walk from CLE either.

In some ways I wish UA would just go to hubs only instead of this mostly Florida destinations focus city nonsense. I think there's a wait-and-see attitude at CLE from other carriers because UA won't make CLE a true spoke.


Here's one example when Bullard discusses both plants. https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-es ... ohio-sites
If this comes to fruition, I don't think the payoff will be HQS jobs, but lots of ex-UAW workers may be able to get back better jobs than they have now. A little boost for F/J service; but a nice boost for the ULCCs.

I agree MCO is overserved, but it wasn't when B6 first started in CLE, Same goes for JFK which some use in preference to LGA. It is true CLE is keeping FLL, while PIT lost it (DTW too? I forget if they ever flew that route.) Susan Glaser in a recent cleveland.com piece reported that UA folks told her that CLE keeps UA Florida routes as mileage rewards to try to keep their frequent flyers base happy. The implication is that when the FF basw attrites, so will the Florida routes. At least that's how I read it.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5404
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:30 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:

I cross checked Stan with Brook Park and Walton Hills. Just an article on the Brook Park plant sale itself, nothing else. No article with rumors AFAIK.

Also, even if Rivian bought the plants tomorrow they are not moving their corporate offices to the Cleveland area. It will be a boost for the local economy but how much it drives F/J class travel is definitely to be determined.

SY and B6 are disappointing because they started CLE service? I mean B6 avoids Midwest/Great Lakes cities like the plague yet CLE has BOS/FLL. Where should they fly? CLE-MCO is overloaded. LGB is a dying focus city. JFK only became a possible add recently as AA was covering the route pretty well. I'm not too upset at their service level considering UA still won't quite completely walk from CLE either.

In some ways I wish UA would just go to hubs only instead of this mostly Florida destinations focus city nonsense. I think there's a wait-and-see attitude at CLE from other carriers because UA won't make CLE a true spoke.


Here's one example when Bullard discusses both plants. https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-es ... ohio-sites
If this comes to fruition, I don't think the payoff will be HQS jobs, but lots of ex-UAW workers may be able to get back better jobs than they have now. A little boost for F/J service; but a nice boost for the ULCCs.

I agree MCO is overserved, but it wasn't when B6 first started in CLE, Same goes for JFK which some use in preference to LGA. It is true CLE is keeping FLL, while PIT lost it (DTW too? I forget if they ever flew that route.) Susan Glaser in a recent cleveland.com piece reported that UA folks told her that CLE keeps UA Florida routes as mileage rewards to try to keep their frequent flyers base happy. The implication is that when the FF basw attrites, so will the Florida routes. At least that's how I read it.[/quote][/quote]
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5404
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:32 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:

I cross checked Stan with Brook Park and Walton Hills. Just an article on the Brook Park plant sale itself, nothing else. No article with rumors AFAIK.

Also, even if Rivian bought the plants tomorrow they are not moving their corporate offices to the Cleveland area. It will be a boost for the local economy but how much it drives F/J class travel is definitely to be determined.

SY and B6 are disappointing because they started CLE service? I mean B6 avoids Midwest/Great Lakes cities like the plague yet CLE has BOS/FLL. Where should they fly? CLE-MCO is overloaded. LGB is a dying focus city. JFK only became a possible add recently as AA was covering the route pretty well. I'm not too upset at their service level considering UA still won't quite completely walk from CLE either.

In some ways I wish UA would just go to hubs only instead of this mostly Florida destinations focus city nonsense. I think there's a wait-and-see attitude at CLE from other carriers because UA won't make CLE a true spoke.


Here's one example when Bullard discusses both plants. https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-es ... ohio-sites
If this comes to fruition, I don't think the payoff will be HQS jobs, but lots of ex-UAW workers may be able to get back better jobs than they have now. A little boost for F/J service; but a nice boost for the ULCCs.

I agree MCO is overserved, but it wasn't when B6 first started in CLE, Same goes for JFK which some use in preference to LGA. It is true CLE is keeping FLL, while PIT lost it (DTW too? I forget if they ever flew that route.) Susan Glaser in a recent cleveland.com piece reported that UA folks told her that CLE keeps UA Florida routes as mileage rewards to try to keep their frequent flyers base happy. The implication is that when the FF base attrites, so will the Florida routes. At least that's how I read it.
 
avtcle
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:56 pm

Likely why they keep their 1x weekly CLE-CHS route during the summer — low frequency leisure route that UA Cleveland customers can burn miles on in the summer months. Same goes for the limited TPA service this winter.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:12 am

If its true that United is keeping flights so that CLE FF can burn miles then -
1) the CLE business traveler is alive and well and quite numerous, contrary to what a lot of folks think. And UA knows how to keep them even if they have to spend money to do it. These travelers must be spending a boatload with UA
2) This loyalty will make it harder for any carrier other than a ULCC to add any meaningful service.
3) all the more reason why I feel that FF reward programs are anticompetitive.
300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1239
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:04 am

UA keeps flights so that FF can burn miles, or UA keeps flights to serve its frequent flyers/ corporate contracts, especially so they choose UA on competitive nonstop routes to NYC, DC, DEN and CHI— plus business cities only served via connections?

To be honest I’m surprised people in UA pay much attention to CLE at all, a day at Hopkins is about the size of an hours worth of flights at ORD. But I’m glad they do.
 
avtcle
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:38 am

At this point, UA could pull the plug on all the non-hub routes and I could care less. All that would happen is existing carriers would rush in to fill the void — there’d be no loss of service. If MCO, FLL, RSW, TPA, CHS we’re eliminated, you could bet that Frontier, JetBlue, Spirt, Allegiant would be there in a second to up frequencies/add routes. Delta actually operates from weekend PTP routes from cities like IND/MCI/CMH to Florida cities like MIA/RSW, so with proven demand for a premium product, they may even enter the market. As for LGA/DCA, you can bet that Delta/American would be upping frequencies immediately (along with Delta offering a way better regional product), so no worries there.

If United actually did give 2 cents about CLE, they’d put their CRJ550 or E175 product on their CLE-LGA/DCA flights and actually capitalize on an already popular business route for them.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1239
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:50 am

Agreed. Those 50 seaters UA loves flying to lga, DCA, and evening certain frequencies for EWR and IAD And ORD have to be pushing 25 years old or even more by now, not at all competitive with Delta, for folks who do pay attention. Say what you will about F9 and NK I’m usually on brand new planes when I fly them.
 
tphuang
Posts: 3513
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:31 am

As I said in JetBlue thread, CLE is one major lost opportunity for them. They could've started MCO before NK and they could've added a second flight to FLL before NK, but they didn't. CLE is one of the few medium sized airport where there is no dominant legacy operation or even a medium sized WN operation (like in PIT). They do well enough to both BOS and FLL. They could be the high fare carrier on many of the routes over ULCCs it they enter some of these markets with purpose. At the present time, they are just too boxed in at BOS/FLL to grow anywhere else. But in 2 or 3 years, they need to find a new focus and a place like CLE looks a lot more attractive to me than AUS/SJC/RDU where everyone else is looking to add service to.
 
avtcle
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:46 am

When you’re also looking at growth trends at Midwest airports similar to Cleveland, their growth is rapidly slowing to within the 1-2% margin. In fact, PIT will likely see a decrease in passengers this year — somewhere around 9.4 million.

Cleveland however, has managed to continue strong growth, with expected 5% growth this year surpassing 10 million.
 
Trk1
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:37 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:53 am

United is the largest carrier in Cleveland. They have the most flights to key business and many leisure markets. They do very well with the markets they serve. This board and its hate by about 5 people amazes me. Who cares if a new carrier saves CLE to MSP 2 times a week for 4 months. If Jet Blue and
Southwest wanted to expand in Cleveland they would. United has chosen to fly to 13 markets from Cleveland and more people fly them than any other airline in town. What is the problem???
 
avtcle
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:48 am

https://www.clevelandairport.com/sun-co ... al-airport

CLE press release on Sun Country. Some additional comments from Kennedy and Sun Country leadership about CLE service.

I swear Frank Jackson reads the same transcript every time Cleveland gets a new airline/route
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4289
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:37 pm

ncflyer wrote:
Agreed. Those 50 seaters UA loves flying to lga, DCA, and evening certain frequencies for EWR and IAD And ORD have to be pushing 25 years old or even more by now, not at all competitive with Delta, for folks who do pay attention. Say what you will about F9 and NK I’m usually on brand new planes when I fly them.


I believe UA only flies those through CLE because of the ExpressJet base
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
izbtmnhd
Posts: 899
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:31 pm

Trk1 wrote:
United is the largest carrier in Cleveland. They have the most flights to key business and many leisure markets. They do very well with the markets they serve. This board and its hate by about 5 people amazes me. Who cares if a new carrier saves CLE to MSP 2 times a week for 4 months. If Jet Blue and
Southwest wanted to expand in Cleveland they would. United has chosen to fly to 13 markets from Cleveland and more people fly them than any other airline in town. What is the problem???


An opposing point of view is not "hate". WN and B6 don't operate in a vacuum they are monitoring what's going on with other airlines, including UA. If they expand and UA decides to retaliate on certain routes, why would they start them? CLE is an interesting case for UA, it's clearly not being abandoned to a spoke and has become a longer term focus city. UA has a very limited commitment to CLE but it has just enough to probably keep other carriers from thinking about expanding more, which makes things very complicated.

As for SY, they're starting small but at least they're starting.

Also, B6 missed the boat on entire Midwest, including markets larger than CLE. CLE's BOS/FLL service almost makes them a hub for the region. :D
 
jplatts
Posts: 2960
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:31 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
Trk1 wrote:
United is the largest carrier in Cleveland. They have the most flights to key business and many leisure markets. They do very well with the markets they serve. This board and its hate by about 5 people amazes me. Who cares if a new carrier saves CLE to MSP 2 times a week for 4 months. If Jet Blue and
Southwest wanted to expand in Cleveland they would. United has chosen to fly to 13 markets from Cleveland and more people fly them than any other airline in town. What is the problem???


An opposing point of view is not "hate". WN and B6 don't operate in a vacuum they are monitoring what's going on with other airlines, including UA. If they expand and UA decides to retaliate on certain routes, why would they start them? CLE is an interesting case for UA, it's clearly not being abandoned to a spoke and has become a longer term focus city. UA has a very limited commitment to CLE but it has just enough to probably keep other carriers from thinking about expanding more, which makes things very complicated.


There were some adds that had been made by WN out of CLE during the last 6 years, including:
(a) The return of CLE-PHX and CLE-STL nonstop service,
(b) The addition of CLE-ATL, CLE-DEN, and CLE-MKE nonstop service,
(c) The addition of Saturday-only CLE-TPA and CLE-FLL nonstop service,
and
(d) The addition of seasonal Sunday-only CLE-DAL nonstop service.

WN already has a customer base in the CLE market to support additional nonstop routes out of CLE since (a) WN has served CLE for over 27 years, (b) there is more demand for WN service out of CLE than was the case prior to UA dehubbing CLE, (c) WN already operates a few nonstop routes such as CLE-BWI, CLE-MKE, and CLE-STL that aren't served nonstop by competitors, and (d) there is more demand for domestic air travel out of CLE than out of some nearby markets such as CVG, CMH, IND, and PIT.

WN can likely make daily nonstop service to MCO, TPA, and FLL work since (a) WN already has a customer base in both CLE and Florida to support daily nonstop service to Florida, (b) there would be some Florida-originating passengers who would choose WN over UA or ULCC's to CLE if WN adds daily nonstop service to Florida from CLE, and (c) WN is able to make daily nonstop service to Florida work from other cities in the Midwest such as MDW, CMH, IND, MCI, MKE, and STL.

Both F9 and NK also already serve MCO nonstop from some destinations that have daily nonstop service to MCO on WN, including ATL, AUS, BWI, ORD/MDW, CMH, DFW/DAL, DEN, BDL, IAH/HOU, IND, MCI, LAS, BNA, MSY, PHL, PIT, RDU, and SJU.

I also previously mentioned that there are a few more nonstop routes that could be added by WN out of CLE such as CLE-AUS, CLE-HOU, CLE-MCI, CLE-LAX, and CLE-SAN.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1239
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:29 pm

jplatts no offense but you’ve been posting on here for years and years that WN could add many of the markets that you mention— yet they don’t. At some point their actions speak more loudly than what could be done on paper. What’s different now rather than other times when WN has passed over CLE for daily service to markets such as MCO or DAL or HOU? If anything I’d say what’s different is that NK and F9 have built up a nice following in CLE, that makes it tougher for WN.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5404
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:36 pm

Trk1 wrote:
This board and its hate by about 5 people amazes me.


UA is the Art Modell of the airlines. :smile:

Seriously, I don't hate UA. They closed the hub because they HAD to do something; operationally they could not make their system work and needed to dump a couple of hunderd flights fast. What I resent is that Smisek lied about why. He blamed Cleveland for his own failings.

From a long term prospectivet, it appears UA probably pulled the plug at precisely the wrong time. The city's economy and air traffic has been growing robustly ever since.
 
LifetimeGS
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:29 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:58 pm

Exactly the wrong time....totally agree. One of the many Smisek errors...
 
jplatts
Posts: 2960
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:02 pm

ncflyer wrote:
jplatts no offense but you’ve been posting on here for years and years that WN could add many of the markets that you mention— yet they don’t. At some point their actions speak more loudly than what could be done on paper. What’s different now rather than other times when WN has passed over CLE for daily service to markets such as MCO or DAL or HOU? If anything I’d say what’s different is that NK and F9 have built up a nice following in CLE, that makes it tougher for WN.


I can understand WN not yet adding new nonstop routes out of CLE apart from the already-added Saturday-only CLE-FLL or Sunday-only CLE-DAL as WN is still facing a plane shortage due to the current 737 MAX grounding and the retirement of its 737-700's 2 years ago.

Demand for WN service out of CLE had also been increasing from 2012 up until the beginning of this year, but WN carried fewer passengers to/from CLE this year than it did last year due to the 737 MAX grounding and WN having to drop flights as a result of the 737 MAX grounding.

In addition to WN, AA and UA both had to drop some flights from their schedule as a result of the 737 MAX grounding, and AS also hadn't yet taken delivery of any 737 MAX planes due to the 737 MAX grounding.

On the other hand, DL, B6, F9, NK, G4, and SY do not operate the 737 MAX, do not currently have any 737 MAX planes on order, and did not have to make any 737 MAX grounding-related cuts that AA, UA, and WN had to.

While WN hasn't yet added CLE-HOU nonstop service, WN had previously said that it was considering adding CLE-HOU nonstop service two years ago. CLE also doesn't currently have any nonstop service to IAH or HOU on any LCC's, unlike some of the other top markets that do not have daily nonstop service out of CLE on WN. There is also already a significant amount of passengers connecting to HOU from CLE on WN, even with both IAH and CLE being former CO hubs and UA still having a hub at IAH.

NK adding CLE-IAH nonstop service is also a possibility with UA currently being the only airline serving the Houston market nonstop from CLE and with NK already serving both CLE and IAH.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1239
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:17 pm

masseybrown wrote:
Trk1 wrote:
This board and its hate by about 5 people amazes me.


From a long term prospectivet, it appears UA probably pulled the plug at precisely the wrong time. The city's economy and air traffic has been growing robustly ever since.


There's a strong case to be made that CLE has been growing robustly precisely because UA closed the hub. . . . . airfares plunged, CAK shrunk dramatically, pax drive here from PA rather than the other way around because of the larger ULCC presence. . . . even with the nice growth, CLE is something like the nation's 45th largest airport, hardly a rocket ship not to be missed. . . .
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:31 pm

I am thankful that UA still employs a lot of folks in NEO - particularly in Maintenance. Now if only the city could have made them pay for that runway CO/UA said they needed .....
300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM
 
jplatts
Posts: 2960
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:43 pm

Here is how CLE compares to nearby markets in the August 2018 through July 2019 time period:
CLE - 9,413,000 domestic passengers, 57.65% market share on AA/DL/UA, 42.35% market share on WN/G4/F9/NK/B6
SDF - 3,978,000 domestic passengers, 65.11% market share on AA/DL/UA, 40.75% market share on WN/G4/F9
CMH - 8,064,000 domestic passengers, 57.74% market share on AA/DL/UA, 0.48% market share on AS, 41.78% market share on WN/F9/NK
CVG - 8,395,000 domestic passengers, 69.71% market share on AA/DL/UA, 30.29% market share on WN/G4/F9
IND - 9,174,000 domestic passengers, 58.00% market share on AA/DL/UA, 1.25% market share on AS, 40.75% market share on WN/G4/F9/NK
PIT - 9,135,000 domestic passengers, 58.20% market share on AA/DL/UA, 0.97% market share on AS, 40.82% market share on WN/G4/F9/NK/B6
DTW - 31,844,000 domestic passengers, 82.63% market share on AA/DL/UA, 0.41% market share on AS, 16.95% market share on WN/F9/NK/B6

CLE actually has more demand for domestic air travel than most of the nearby markets such as SDF, CMH, CVG, IND, or PIT.

The US3 carriers combined (including regionals) also have a lower percentage market share on domestic air travel at CLE than at SDF, CMH, CVG, IND, PIT, or DTW.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1581
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:47 pm

Article from the PD about local flyer's thoughts on UA.
https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019 ... ments.html
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
greenair727
Posts: 1324
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:50 pm

^from the linked article: "*Changes in the frequent flyer program. Effective next year, the carrier is changing the way travelers accumulate frequent flyer status. Instead of counting miles flown, the carrier will count number of flights flown and dollars spent. The changes are likely to hurt international travelers the most."

What drove this change? Sounds like its OK to take UA on short hauls only, and take DL or AA for long hauls. This change seems really out of touch. And UA is trying to be more customer friendly? Out of CLE to Europe, one must connect somewhere anyway, so one may as well fly something other than UA and at least work towards status more equitably.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5404
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:53 pm

I reread the RFQ for the Master Plan contractor to see what kind of guidance the bidders were given. Basically, I was looking for any language that would tell them that CLE wanted provision in the plan for the return of a hub operation, whether or not there was such a prospect at the time the plan might be finished. I couldn't find out anything.

There are a few "big deals" percolating around town. One of them happening probably wouldn't mean a whole lot; two happening starts to get interesting; but three coming true (admittedly unlikely) might be enough to interest some airline or other into creating a serious focus-city operation - maybe ten gates and some connecting traffic.

Anybody have more knowledge of what the Master Plan folks havve been given as guidance?
 
greenair727
Posts: 1324
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:18 pm

Don't know what guidance the master plan contractor has been given, but I'm curious to know what the three big deals are if you're able to share.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5404
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:51 pm

greenair727 wrote:
Don't know what guidance the master plan contractor has been given, but I'm curious to know what the three big deals are if you're able to share.


One is the Ford deal involving the sale of Walton Hills and half of Brookpark, which has been reported in Crain's Cleveland. I don't want to raise any false hopes or feed rumors about the other two. One of them would truly be a game-changer; the other one is more in the "really, really nice" category. The benefit of all three would be jobs, mostly high-end jobs, not any fancy buildings.
 
avtcle
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:54 am

Looks like United has started loading its spring break flights into its system. CLE-TPA will be back in March, after a break in January/February. CLE-RSW @ 8x weekly (2x on Saturday), has been extended into March/April. Those are only changes as of now. I’m sure more changes are on the way because prices are $1,000+ in the system right now.
 
CleSyrRoc
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 2:47 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:45 pm

Some movement from AA in today's OAG updates from Enrila.

CLE-DFW going down to two daily. Pretty surprising, did some dummy bookings for the week of Feb 10th and its down to between 1 and 3 flights per day.
CLE-JFK is completely cancelled for February. It looks like it comes back as two daily in March.

What is going on with these AA Cuts in CLE?
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5404
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:05 pm

^ I'm guessing the DFW reduction is MAX-related. The JFK cut is not CLE-specific, AA is taking a huge ax to JFK, trying to make JFK into an O&D airport and concentrate TATL connections in PHL.They're cutting LGA as well (so far not CLE-LGA). AA is under investor pressure to improve earnings NOW; but it remains to be seen whether cutting so much from NYC is a good long-term move.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1239
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:16 pm

Honestly I don’t know how AA has even kept the JFK flights for all this time. Delta has four flights per day on 3 class crj 900s. Vastly superior in every dimension. I’ve not been to AA terminal at JFK but Deltas is terrific.

AA back to five to DFW on 3/10, probably is max related but it’s sure telling that CLE is hit more than Columbus (3 flights) or PIT (4) or IND (5).
 
HPAEAA
Posts: 1127
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 7:24 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:23 pm

masseybrown wrote:
^ I'm guessing the DFW reduction is MAX-related. The JFK cut is not CLE-specific, AA is taking a huge ax to JFK, trying to make JFK into an O&D airport and concentrate TATL connections in PHL.They're cutting LGA as well (so far not CLE-LGA). AA is under investor pressure to improve earnings NOW; but it remains to be seen whether cutting so much from NYC is a good long-term move.

Max is possibly one part if it, but oasis is starting up again as well probably putting more pressure on on the 738 fleet until complete.

Regarding the JFK cut, we’ll see as the March schedule gets finalized, but it could just be a seasonal adjustment...

they’re NYC ops were quoted as profitable currently, personally I think it’s a mess at the moment with very limited options beyond the AA hubs (especially from Cleveland)). I wonder if some of the LGA changes are construction driven.
1.4mm and counting...
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4289
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:24 pm

Star Wars livery coming in Tuesday evening
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
csizmpl
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:13 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:27 pm

CleSyrRoc wrote:
Some movement from AA in today's OAG updates from Enrila.

CLE-DFW going down to two daily. Pretty surprising, did some dummy bookings for the week of Feb 10th and its down to between 1 and 3 flights per day.
CLE-JFK is completely cancelled for February. It looks like it comes back as two daily in March.

What is going on with these AA Cuts in CLE?



CLE-DFW on AA returns to 3x direct M-F, 1x Sat, 2x Sun on Thurs Feb 6th and a return to normal levels 5x direct Sun thru Fri 3x direct Sat - on Thurs Mar 5th.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos