ncflyer
Posts: 1178
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:51 pm

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2019/03/ ... -woes.html

One decisions after the next they made it clear they weren’t happy with CLE. From cutting back the season to the frequency, it was drip drip drip. They aren’t coming back you can tell from the quote. And CLE got axed before MCI— what’s that say.
 
joeman
Posts: 827
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:08 pm

...and we thought no competition after WW would strengthen FI presence going forward. This blow would be a good timing for another carrier to make a splash with something actually new (like stable SEA service) but I finally accept all the "was gonna" scenarios CLE has had over the years on service improvements and look forward to nothing.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1178
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:29 pm

Wonder how long until CLE fares to Europe return to what they were— a good $300 or $400 more than PIT r/t used to be very common.
 
Robert1010
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:23 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:56 pm

Ok EI !!!!!!!! Let’s go , better airline , better city , bigger hub !!!!
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1483
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:15 pm

Although only 4x per week x 738Max, it will have an affect on pax levels in 2019. What to do with all the CBP folks that were in place for these two, then one, then zero carriers?
 
chrisjake
Posts: 989
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:19 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:17 pm

Hey Aer Lingus, Europe-Cleveland is now yours for the taking!
 
Robert1010
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:23 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:26 pm

I’d like to see their presser to Philadelphia media ! I’d almost put money on them never returning to CLE , these MAX issues are a good reason for them to bail and use it as excuse !
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1483
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:30 pm

Robert1010 wrote:
I’d like to see their presser to Philadelphia media ! I’d almost put money on them never returning to CLE , these MAX issues are a good reason for them to bail and use it as excuse !


Up to a few months ago, I would day you are wrong. I felt that FI was committed to CLE. Attending trade shows, sponsoring events, etc. Could something have transpired in the past few months outside of the MAX issues? Yes. If it did, I'd bet it had to do with the EI courting and billboards. FI knows there is no room for both and did a move similar to UA when challenged on a route, took off.

I do fear that in the interim, the cost of TATL flights will go up to the old standard $1000-1300 RT. Gone are the $600 RT's on US3 and FI out of CLE to Europe. I'm glad I was able to book cheap across the pond tickets while they lasted.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1178
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:36 pm

I find it hard to believe EI maybe sort of who knows coming to CLE had anything whatsoever to do with this. Would Icelandair be that bashful about competing?
 
strangeplanes
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:16 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:23 pm

ncflyer wrote:
https://www.cleveland.com/news/2019/03/icelandair-cancels-service-from-cleveland-cites-boeing-737-max-8-woes.html

One decisions after the next they made it clear they weren’t happy with CLE. From cutting back the season to the frequency, it was drip drip drip. They aren’t coming back you can tell from the quote. And CLE got axed before MCI— what’s that say.

All of my sources say that S’19 MCI sales are above and beyond S’18.
 
greenair727
Posts: 1268
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:29 pm

I heard an ad this morning for FI on the radio. I agree that this is strange. The Max issue could simply require frequency decreases on several routes if they're down 3 aircraft. So I agree that this is not about the Max8, though they are suggesting that it is, at least partially. I also agree that EI sniffing around---if that's all they were doing--is too minor an event to scare off FI---especially after WW announced and flew actual service to CLE announced 1-2 days after they announced CLE and FI didn't back down then. So it begs the question, what IS the reason? Loads were good across both carriers at 9x/wk. So with just one carrier at 7x---or at 5x as planned---the demand is there. Yields were expected to be higher with one carrier in the market. So what it is? A sexier city that WW once had that FI could now serve instead of CLE? Or did Hopkins management botch this somehow--playing hardball, refusing to fix the FIS issue for at least 6 years, or some other ill-fated action (like their attempt to make old people walk 1/2 mile to catch a taxi in the cold garage)? Or does FI know of a major announcement of a new carrier that will announce AND begin service by May?
 
Jshank83
Posts: 2834
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:50 pm

greenair727 wrote:
I heard an ad this morning for FI on the radio. I agree that this is strange. The Max issue could simply require frequency decreases on several routes if they're down 3 aircraft. So I agree that this is not about the Max8, though they are suggesting that it is, at least partially. I also agree that EI sniffing around---if that's all they were doing--is too minor an event to scare off FI---especially after WW announced and flew actual service to CLE announced 1-2 days after they announced CLE and FI didn't back down then. So it begs the question, what IS the reason? Loads were good across both carriers at 9x/wk. So with just one carrier at 7x---or at 5x as planned---the demand is there. Yields were expected to be higher with one carrier in the market. So what it is? A sexier city that WW once had that FI could now serve instead of CLE? Or did Hopkins management botch this somehow--playing hardball, refusing to fix the FIS issue for at least 6 years, or some other ill-fated action (like their attempt to make old people walk 1/2 mile to catch a taxi in the cold garage)? Or does FI know of a major announcement of a new carrier that will announce AND begin service by May?


No one is going to announce a route now and start flying in less than two months (or this summer at all). I also would highly doubt Fl would hear about an announcement much before the general public. Usually there are some nondisclosure signed. I am guessing they really are just concerned about having the MAX this summer and CLE was who got the cut. They could cut back another routes frequency but maybe those routes are on track to have better loads than CLE so there is no reason to take away planes from another route if CLE won't fill them to that level. Obviously, there could be many things that go into it but I imagine the MAX is a big reason otherwise they would have cut it before now.
 
SgtBarone
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:20 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:53 pm

If anything, it opens the door for single, year-round carrier.
AGP ATL BCN BNA BOS CLE CLT DCA DEN FLG FLL FRA IAD IAH JAX LAX LGB MAD MCI MDW MKE MUC PHX RDU RSW SEA SJU SLC SNA TPA
 
N766UA
Posts: 8223
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:04 pm

SgtBarone wrote:
If anything, it opens the door for single, year-round carrier.


CLE had a single, year-round carrier. Then it had 2 carriers. Then CLE’s year-round carrier cut their service to seasonal, even after the other dropped out of the market...then they cut it entirely. CLE now has a proven track record of not being able to support transatlantic service; zero doors have been opened here.

Honestly, when 2 carriers fail in less than a year, how in the heck do you guys conclude “there must be a major new service announcement coming!” It’s borderline psychotic optimism.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1178
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:23 pm

The article has been updated with a statement from the airport, a quote from Boyd, and data in load factors. Fair in CLE, lousy in MCI. The statement from the airport says the routes demonstrate that northern Ohio has strong support for flights to Europe. Something like that…
 
greenair727
Posts: 1268
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:56 pm

^The Boyd comment that load factors were 75%--'fair not great' makes absolutely no sense---and he should know better unless the PD misunderstood him or misquoted him. If FI did 75% last year when it was a 9x weekly route with two carriers--that means this year, they'll do far better. But this comment by Kennedy is much worse:

"Cleveland airport director Robert Kennedy said: “While we are disappointed in the news, the recent service from Icelandair and Wow Air has shown the strength and demand from Cleveland and the Northern Ohio regional market to Europe.”" He comes off as really out of touch---if you go from two carriers to ZERO, that really isn't "showing the strength" of the market. I hope some low-lever staffer wrote that and not Kennedy himself as it makes him and the city look pretty incompetent and clueless. Again, I wonder if Kennedy is trying to get fired with the stuff he's done lately and now this comment.
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 1564
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:13 pm

Man CLE is always unlucky with TATL and big expansions. Continental's stuff was always around a recession or when oil was high, Wow went belly up, and now the 737 max issues...
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
User avatar
CLEguy
Posts: 248
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:46 pm

It seems odd that they would cancel the route less than two months out after extensive marketing. I don't think we will ever know the true cause of the cancellation unless FI is more transparent about loads, future bookings, any problems with CLE management, etc. I think it was likely a combination of lower than expected future sales for the summer (I did note increased fares overall compared to last year, probably due to WOW's exit from the market, which could have depressed loads, but should have increased yields) and the 737 Max groundings. If it were primarily the latter, then maybe FI will return next year. If they don't, then they were either not making enough money on the route or they found routes that could make better money than CLE. It's all rather disappointing.
 
gravytrain
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:41 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:57 pm

Not to worry, I hear Frontier are to announce a new 2x weekly service to Nowheresville Beach, Florida tomorrow.
 
greenair727
Posts: 1268
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:10 am

CLEguy wrote:
I think it was likely a combination of lower than expected future sales for the summer ....


It wasn't even bookable on their website yet and last year the route was 9x weekly with two carriers, so FI had absolutely no metric for how sales for this summer would do expect for a probably even stronger local economy than last summer. So it can't really be that. Maybe they thought they could still make things work without the Max8 and suddenly realized they couldn't or maybe CLE management did or said something awful......I'm leaning towards that....
 
User avatar
CLEguy
Posts: 248
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:12 am

greenair727 wrote:
CLEguy wrote:
I think it was likely a combination of lower than expected future sales for the summer ....


It wasn't even bookable on their website yet and last year the route was 9x weekly with two carriers, so FI had absolutely no metric for how sales for this summer would do expect for a probably even stronger local economy than last summer. So it can't really be that. Maybe they thought they could still make things work without the Max8 and suddenly realized they couldn't or maybe CLE management did or said something awful......I'm leaning towards that....


The flights were loaded and just recently zeroed out. I had looked at a few routings earlier in the year, and the the nonstops were there.

It looks like FI also just canceled Halifax, again citing the 737 Max woes: https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/busin ... ts-295331/

I can't imagine what airport management could have done or said to make an airline pull out. It seems rather farfetched to me. It comes down to economics and aircraft availability, most likely.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1178
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:48 am

I get that the max issues are outside of the airlines control but this whole thing is very bush league the more I think about it. The airline has a special message on its website not to be concerned. Days earlier the PD wrote a well researched article to say the route would stay. The route was pulled from the reservation system before an announcement was made. There seems to be no consideration that another airline serving the route with a 75% load dropped out. Finally absolutely no patience to develop the route, in fact it was the opposite, it seemed to me to be more of a reactionary strategy. I’m sorry but I don’t care the route, you can’t just drop in a new plane and expect overnight success. It takes time for people to change habits.
 
joeman
Posts: 827
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:15 am

ncflyer wrote:
I get that the max issues are outside of the airlines control but this whole thing is very bush league the more I think about it. The airline has a special message on its website not to be concerned. Days earlier the PD wrote a well researched article to say the route would stay. The route was pulled from the reservation system before an announcement was made. There seems to be no consideration that another airline serving the route with a 75% load dropped out. Finally absolutely no patience to develop the route, in fact it was the opposite, it seemed to me to be more of a reactionary strategy. I’m sorry but I don’t care the route, you can’t just drop in a new plane and expect overnight success. It takes time for people to change habits.


I've read before on a.netter that routes take time to develop as excuse for initial undramatic performance, but that usually seems to involve airports with regular service expansion. Yes it appeared the elimination of WW and corresponding fare increases would've been a positive "metric".

...and even before the WW withdrawal it was going to be year-round, and then it was going to resume in March, and then it was going to resume in May and now this.
 
swacle
Posts: 491
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:41 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:03 pm

JetBlue 123 (A321)diverted to CLE this morning. If you're in the area hes about to leave.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/JBU ... /KCLE/KLAX
Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
 
Robert1010
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:23 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:53 pm

Can’t believe a CSA area of 3.4 million can’t get one TATL! is the economy that bad ??? Maybe John Dorsey would be willing to run CLE airport as well!!
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1483
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:14 pm

Robert1010 wrote:
Can’t believe a CSA area of 3.4 million can’t get one TATL! is the economy that bad ??? Maybe John Dorsey would be willing to run CLE airport as well!!


The Dorse! Yes, but he would use logic and ask the City to let someone else run the airport, not the City. He'd probably close BKL for Browns purposes too.

Anyhow, I thought I'd point out on the ribbon on a.net for this thread, the banner reads: British Airway from PIT - your direct flight to London and beyond....coincidence or are marketers really that fast?
 
klm617
Posts: 4375
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:25 pm

Robert1010 wrote:
Can’t believe a CSA area of 3.4 million can’t get one TATL! is the economy that bad ??? Maybe John Dorsey would be willing to run CLE airport as well!!


I agree and I think with time FI would have worked if they would have had patience. I think the best option would be for CLE to land a London link.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 4375
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:30 pm

So here is my question with two carriers doing their do diligence in adding a new station Cleveland both announcing year round service only to have both airlines walk away after only about 6 months of service where did their route planning departments go wrong ? How can two carriers be wrong about a station that they thought had potential and what does that say about the rule of thumb as far as route planning goes when adding a new station. The real irony is Cleveland wasn't the only double miscue by these carriers so was Dallas.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
N766UA
Posts: 8223
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:56 pm

CLEguy wrote:
It seems odd that they would cancel the route less than two months out after extensive marketing.


It’s not odd if the marketing campaign failed to improve ticket sales. Couple that with the Max’s issues and the fact that further delaying CLE after already pairing it down is guaranteed to ruin your customer base’s opinion of your service, and it’s probably most prudent to cut your losses.

The *biggest* issue here is CLE’s management. It’s the single worst-run airport in the country. The infrastructure is JV at best. Customs is an absolute joke. They have 0 foresight and the big int’l carriers can see that. Despite CLE’s pax increases, the vast majority of flights are still to someone’s hub.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1178
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:54 pm

fun2fly-- the ribbon is based on your own browsing history-- you can thank google and FB for that. I've never gotten BA ad.

Right on N766UA. In addition to recent problems retaining international service: Imagine an international route planner at EI visiting PIT (with a new terminal about to break ground), MCI (ground broken a few days ago), IND (Taj Mahal already in place), DTW (ditto), CVG (maybe not a taj mahal but a very respectable facility), and then CLE, which the PD is now reporting is out of parking over spring break.

A somewhat more realistic silver lining to come out of this (since I don't believe EI or any other airline will be encouraged by what's happened) would be business and political leaders finally say "enough" with the airport we need better. I don't know how businesses that generate a lot of travel put up with it.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:28 pm

N766UA wrote:
It’s not odd if the marketing campaign failed to improve ticket sales. Couple that with the Max’s issues and the fact that further delaying CLE after already pairing it down is guaranteed to ruin your customer base’s opinion of your service, and it’s probably most prudent to cut your losses.

The *biggest* issue here is CLE’s management. It’s the single worst-run airport in the country. The infrastructure is JV at best. Customs is an absolute joke. They have 0 foresight and the big int’l carriers can see that. Despite CLE’s pax increases, the vast majority of flights are still to someone’s hub.


Or maybe the expectations of this thread's participants aren't realistic. Since UA closed its hub, local enplanements have increased by over 25% (that's over 1M passengers) ... and are still growing -- that's phenomenal. CLE has service to over 50 markets, including nearly all of the top 40 by local enplanements, and nearly 60 airports. CLE, once the poster child for high fares, now enjoys the lowest average fares in the Midwest and - adjusted for mileage - some of the lowest average fares in the USA.

Yet the CLE faithful on here complain that most of CLE's flights are to other airlines' hubs when a) most of these hubs represent the largest destination markets in the country and b) the US3 don't operate point-to-point networks. The CLE faithful are also upset about the terminal facilities when a) they fail to understand the level of debt the airport has undertaken (largely to satisfy the needs of the then-CO hub) and its impact on obtaining financing and b) that new airport terminals aren't cheap and could have the effect of chasing away much of the LCC service CLE has worked so hard to get.

It's a shame IcelandAir didn't work out, but that's one of the few blemishes on the airport's record since UA announced the closure of its hub. Maybe the problem is that CLE lacks sufficient intercontinental traffic? CO acknowledged its struggles with LGW -- a 757 to Europe supported by a then-good sized hub. Of course, this fourm has brainstormed every reason as to why the flight failed BUT the fact that CLE lacks the right mix of traffic...
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
avtcle
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:38 am

I think what we should all think about is that it’s very difficult to launch a European route from any airport. It takes a lot of effort, money and time. For midsize cities like Cleveland or Cincinnati, its increasingly hard to land new routes to Europe. What everyone has to understand is that

1.) It was VERY hard for the city and the airline to convince travelers that Reykjavík was a good connecting alternative to get to other European cities over, say, Boston or New York.

2.) Cleveland’s European demand went untapped for 9 years, which gave travelers time to develop loyalty to other airlines for their transatlantic connections.

3.) over 56,000 passengers flew between Cleveland and Reykjavik last season- which is an incredible number. Though that number was dispersed between WOW and Icelandair, it’s clear that the demand IS there, however I don’t think that demand had been convinced enough about the value of Iceland as a connection airport.

4.) Icelandair’s value to the business community quickly diminished as it slashed its winter flights and reduced frequencies

5.) Icelandair likely didn’t see enough improvement season-to-season for its Cleveland route BECUASE: They canceled their winter flights, leaving thousands of pre-booked Cleveland travelers forced to connect in cities like Minneapolis or Boston. They then canceled their flights in March, April and early May, once again leaving many pre-booked passengers connecting through other cities, possibly adding up to 8 hours to their travel time. Finally, they reduced their frequencies to 4x weekly, leaving all passengers booked on a Monday flight forced to either change their date of travel or connect in another city. It’s hard to convince travelers you’re a reliable and well run airline to fly to Europe when they’ve continually screwed over travelers from Cleveland.
 
luckyone
Posts: 2788
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:07 am

greenair727 wrote:
CLEguy wrote:
I think it was likely a combination of lower than expected future sales for the summer ....


It wasn't even bookable on their website yet and last year the route was 9x weekly with two carriers, so FI had absolutely no metric for how sales for this summer would do expect for a probably even stronger local economy than last summer. So it can't really be that. Maybe they thought they could still make things work without the Max8 and suddenly realized they couldn't or maybe CLE management did or said something awful......I'm leaning towards that....

It was absolutely bookable. This morning I had to scramble for an itinerary to replace the nonstop I and four friends booked for this May and made the booking in September.
 
User avatar
jetpixx
Posts: 885
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 3:22 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:08 am

fun2fly wrote:
Robert1010 wrote:
Can’t believe a CSA area of 3.4 million can’t get one TATL! is the economy that bad ??? Maybe John Dorsey would be willing to run CLE airport as well!!


Anyhow, I thought I'd point out on the ribbon on a.net for this thread, the banner reads: British Airway from PIT - your direct flight to London and beyond....coincidence or are marketers really that fast?


Pittsburgh's flight is one-stop service? Or is just some marketing person and non-aviation person saying direct rather than non-stop. There is a difference. Most people on here know that direct is one-stop service, but you do not change planes. Non-stop is non-stop.
ABE, BIL, BOS, BUF, BWI, CAE, CAK, CHS, CLE, CLT, CVG, DAY, DFW, DTW, EWR, FLL, GSO, IAD, IAH, IND, ISP, JAX, JFK, LAS, LGA, M57, MDW, MEM, MHT, MIA, MKE, MLB, MSO, MSP, OMA, ORD, PBI, PHL, PIT, PVD, RDU, SEA, SFO, SLC, SJU, STL, SYR, TLH, TMB, TUL, YVR
 
luckyone
Posts: 2788
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:25 am

Robert1010 wrote:
Can’t believe a CSA area of 3.4 million can’t get one TATL! is the economy that bad ??? Maybe John Dorsey would be willing to run CLE airport as well!!

To be objective, that is not a very dense CSA. It bleeds into CMH and PIT, and many people are just as close to one as the other. PIT and CMH are also not stuck in the past the way much of Northeastern Ohio is. It’s human nature to dislike change, but the people here have had to be dragged kicking and screaming.
 
kavok
Posts: 572
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:30 am

As far as TATL service, CLE is in an especially tough spot compared to even IND, CVG, PIT, etc. because of the legacy Star Alliance base that remains within the CLE business community.

In contrast, PIT has a lot of legacy OneWorld flyers in their business community from the old USAir hub. Thus BA is a natural fit in serving that community. The same is true with SkyTeam flyers in the CVG business community, hence DLs CDG flight. So for CLE, ideally a Star Alliance carrier should be the one to offer TATL service.

Problem is, UA/LH don’t really do TATL flights to markets of CLE size like DL or BA. And even if UA/LH did, the Star Alliance megahub in Europe is FRA, which is significant overflying for pax heading from CLE to UK, France, Spain, and a good portion of Western Europe.

Originally I thought EI made the most sense for CLE, but unfortunately EI seems to be moving away from Star and closer to OneWorld since their IAG acquisition. The other issue with EI is that CLE is also located directly between PIT and DTW, which are also long rumored adds for EI.

At this point, maybe Condor could be the best remaining target instead... especially if PIT getting EI forces Condor out of that market. But even then, they are not the traditional legacy carrier that appeals to local business pax.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1178
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:00 am

luckyone wrote:
PIT and CMH are also not stuck in the past the way much of Northeastern Ohio is. It’s human nature to dislike change, but the people here have had to be dragged kicking and screaming.


I can’t even begin to interpret what that is supposed to mean.
 
jplatts
Posts: 2712
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:18 am

kavok wrote:
As far as TATL service, CLE is in an especially tough spot compared to even IND, CVG, PIT, etc. because of the legacy Star Alliance base that remains within the CLE business community.

Problem is, UA/LH don’t really do TATL flights to markets of CLE size like DL or BA. And even if UA/LH did, the Star Alliance megahub in Europe is FRA, which is significant overflying for pax heading from CLE to UK, France, Spain, and a good portion of Western Europe.


LH actually does already serve some non-UA hub markets in the U.S. such as ATL, BOS, DFW, DTW, MIA, MCO, PHL, SAN, SEA, and TPA.

LH adding CLE-FRA nonstop service might be a possibility with LH already serving some non-UA hub markets in the US and with there being a significant Star Alliance FF base in the CLE market.

Even though TP serves fewer non-UA destinations in the US than LH does, TP adding CLE-LIS nonstop service is another possibility as more connections can be made through LIS that do not require backtracking.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5361
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:30 am

jplatts wrote:
LH adding CLE-FRA nonstop service might be a possibility .


The problem with LH is their smallest TATL plane is the A333 with 236 seats, too big and too premium-heavy for CLE-FRA.

Best bet: sit tight and see what EI has to say about 2020. WW and FI, after, all did carry ~1170 departing pax a week last summer; at fares high enough to be profitable, the numbers probably won't go down that much.
 
acentauri
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:35 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:08 am

kavok wrote:
......The other issue with EI is that CLE is also located directly between PIT and DTW, which are also long rumored adds for EI.....

That was before BA announced LHR-PIT, which is incentivized over 2 years. IMO, the chances of EI starting PIT are very remote at this point - unless of course PIT decides to throw $$ at them.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1483
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:02 pm

Well, maybe a few days ago FI got word that WW was going out of business today and that made CLE and a few other cities have to be put on hold? It would make a lot more sense than anything we've come up with on this thread.
 
steeler83
Posts: 7624
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:29 pm

IMHO, EI starting PIT would be redundant with BA about to launch PIT-LHR. Yet, PIT is still likely on their list of places to add for 2020. That said, I see CLE as a better option for EI. Is there enough local demand on PIT-DUB that would warrant its own service? I'm sure CLE-DUB is sufficient enough, and traffic to the rest of Europe could easily be routed through there.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 3263
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:36 pm

What's scary is CLE is now in competition with DTW for a European low cost carrier like FI and EI since WOW's dead. I don't see them going to both so this will be a very interesting development to watch.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1483
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:53 pm

steeler83 wrote:
IMHO, EI starting PIT would be redundant with BA about to launch PIT-LHR. Yet, PIT is still likely on their list of places to add for 2020. That said, I see CLE as a better option for EI. Is there enough local demand on PIT-DUB that would warrant its own service? I'm sure CLE-DUB is sufficient enough, and traffic to the rest of Europe could easily be routed through there.


Well, one thing for sure is that all the negotiating leverage with the greater CLE partnership went over to EI today with WW's demise. So, CLE, you have no carrier now, can we get a few more incentives?
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:26 pm

Interesting observation - I have 2 friends who are or have recently taken their families (4 travelers) on European vacations. Both rented cars and drove to Toronto as their least cost option. They did not fly to Toronto on AC as those prices were uncompetitive.

Plus to all the naysayers who say that Cleveland can't support these flights. I struggle with that. Even though the area has lost some well known Companies, we still have - Sherwin Williams, Smuckers, Nestle, Eaton, Luberzoil, Hyland Software, Progressive, RPM. Goodyear and Bridgestone Research are not that far away either. That doesn't count the elephants in the room - the Cleveland Clinic and the Federal Government.
300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 4062
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:56 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Interesting observation - I have 2 friends who are or have recently taken their families (4 travelers) on European vacations. Both rented cars and drove to Toronto as their least cost option. They did not fly to Toronto on AC as those prices were uncompetitive.

Plus to all the naysayers who say that Cleveland can't support these flights. I struggle with that. Even though the area has lost some well known Companies, we still have - Sherwin Williams, Smuckers, Nestle, Eaton, Luberzoil, Hyland Software, Progressive, RPM. Goodyear and Bridgestone Research are not that far away either. That doesn't count the elephants in the room - the Cleveland Clinic and the Federal Government.


How much do most of those companies produce in terms of corporate travel, for example I can't imagine Smuckers produces a large amount of int'l or corporate travel. Also, Federal Government travel is not high yielding, as most federal government travel is purchased on heavily discounted tickets.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
User avatar
CLEguy
Posts: 248
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:56 pm

Interesting commentary from the PD: https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019 ... ntary.html
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5361
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:17 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
That doesn't count the elephants in the room - the Cleveland Clinic ...


Actually most medical researchers are amazingly frequent flyers, since federal grants favor multi-lab collaborations. You could add CWRU, UH, and CSU to the list. There is no question that the area generates enough traffic to support at least one European flight. Bite the bullet and offer the $5 million a year guarantee to a major player is probably the best way to do it, but ouch ... I understand people's reluctance to pay that price.
 
Robert1010
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:23 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:28 pm

Unfortunately some part of me still feels the best chance for a TATL is still someone like Air Serbia who has been growing and used to fly here ( Yugoslav ) to Belgrade , but that wouldn’t be a connection type service , mostly local !
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:41 pm

I think the PD article is spot on - too many corporate fliers are tied into the United frequent flier program to change carriers. In my career (and I traveled a lot), it was not hard to make a travel request that only one carrier could fill.
300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos