greenair727
Posts: 1210
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu May 30, 2019 8:22 pm

masseybrown wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
Massey! You can't tease us like that. Please share the rumor.


Sorry, I probably shouldn't have said anything. If my rumor comes true it won't generate anything like a new hub, but it would probably generate one very nice new route.

Back to CLE-FLL: WN has added four flights on the four Saturdays that bracket Thanksgiving and Christmas. Maybe it will come back for Presidents Day - Easter


And back to Ford: the route, I'd like to see more than any other is AMS. Could that be the route? Or at least LHR? And how is it related to Ford?
 
greenair727
Posts: 1210
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri May 31, 2019 11:23 pm

Some info on the Ford plants: For "producing game-changing automotive technologies...At least one of the game changing technologies is the plasma ignition system, also known as the sparkless ignition, according to a party involved with sales transaction." What's the airport impact? More flights to Detroit?

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/05/ ... do-to.html
 
VetteDude
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:13 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:44 am

greenair727 wrote:
Some info on the Ford plants: For "producing game-changing automotive technologies...At least one of the game changing technologies is the plasma ignition system, also known as the sparkless ignition, according to a party involved with sales transaction." What's the airport impact? More flights to Detroit?

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/05/ ... do-to.html


Interesting. One of my other hobbies is cars. The manufacturer that is pioneering sparkless gas engines and really pushing the technology and has actually introduced a production vehicle using it is Mazda (with the new Mazda 3). To my knowledge, they don't currently build any cars in the U.S. so I don't think it would be related to them at all.
 
masseybrown
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Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:38 am

greenair727 wrote:
Some info on the Ford plants: For "producing game-changing automotive technologies...At least one of the game changing technologies is the plasma ignition system, also known as the sparkless ignition, according to a party involved with sales transaction." What's the airport impact? More flights to Detroit?

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/05/ ... do-to.html


As long as somebody else is naming names ... VW was the rumor I had heard, potentially a much bigger deal than Tenneco.
 
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CLEguy
Posts: 228
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:14 pm

Just saw this. A 20% increase in valet parking cost to $30/day effective July 1.

https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2019 ... rcent.html
 
masseybrown
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:58 pm

A couple of flights here ... a couple of flights there ... I hadn't noticed how CLE service to the Virginia/Carolina/Georgia coast had grown to 23 flights a week this summer, spread among ORF, MYR, CHS, and SAV.

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019 ... -more.html
 
masseybrown
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:52 pm

Also, the UA fall sked shows CLE is up to 23 mainline flights; I believe this is up about 6 from last year. The small growth in the CLE crew domicile recently must be a reflection.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1133
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:29 pm

I've noticed this summer that ORD only has 2 50 seaters, the other 7 flights are mainline. That is increase in mainline flying. In the fall 7 mainline 1 50 seaters.

A head scratcher to me is why PIT has so more seats and frequency to EWR than CLE does.

For instance tomorrow June 3, 1 737-800 call that 150 seats, 4 ERJ 145s, 200, 1 ERJ 170 75. 6 frequencies, 425 seats to Newark.

PIT has 1 737-700, 125, 7 ERJ 170/175s 525 seats, total of 650 seats to Newark 8 frequencies.

Even Columbus has 7 flights, though fewer seats than CLE. Same with IND, 7 flights. BNA 3 out of 6 are mainline. DTW 7 flights on UA, more overall seats than CLE.

I suppose some CLE volume on UA goes over LGA but still, EWR is unique among UA destinations in this regard-- less service than some peer cities (granted DTW is one city much larger but they are well served by DL also).
 
avtcle
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:24 pm

ncflyer wrote:
I've noticed this summer that ORD only has 2 50 seaters, the other 7 flights are mainline. That is increase in mainline flying. In the fall 7 mainline 1 50 seaters.

A head scratcher to me is why PIT has so more seats and frequency to EWR than CLE does.

For instance tomorrow June 3, 1 737-800 call that 150 seats, 4 ERJ 145s, 200, 1 ERJ 170 75. 6 frequencies, 425 seats to Newark.

PIT has 1 737-700, 125, 7 ERJ 170/175s 525 seats, total of 650 seats to Newark 8 frequencies.

Even Columbus has 7 flights, though fewer seats than CLE. Same with IND, 7 flights. BNA 3 out of 6 are mainline. DTW 7 flights on UA, more overall seats than CLE.

I suppose some CLE volume on UA goes over LGA but still, EWR is unique among UA destinations in this regard-- less service than some peer cities (granted DTW is one city much larger but they are well served by DL also).


Here’s why: United has its New York demand from Cleveland being split between 2 airports — EWR & LGA.

From CLE-LGA there is 250 daily seats
From CLE-EWR there is 425 daily seats
425+250=675 daily seats heading to New York

If United were to exit the LGA market from CLE, we’d certainly see an uptick in EWR seats. United will likely hold onto is LGA and DCA routes from Cleveland long into the foreseeable future. Those are valuable slots and they really have no other routes to use them for, and lucky for United, business travelers have remained loyal to them for those routes. They consistently preform better than all other airlines serving those markets.

Also— United is working destress connections at EWR while establishing IAD as their east coast connection hub. Starting this fall, IAD will have 3 daily mainline flights from Cleveland, a big jump from last year, when the fall/winter was all regional flights.
 
avtcle
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:55 pm

masseybrown wrote:
Also, the UA fall sked shows CLE is up to 23 mainline flights; I believe this is up about 6 from last year. The small growth in the CLE crew domicile recently must be a reflection.



You’re absolutely right. That’s reflecting mainline growth to Denver, Chicago and Washington-Dulles.

In November United will go to 9 daily mainline flights to Chicago and 0 regional flights. They’ll tack on a regional flight again in January, making their remaining schedule for winter/spring 8 daily mainline and 1 daily regional.

Denver is now 100% mainline as of may. 4 daily mainline flights, year-round.

In October Washington-Dulles service will increase from 0 daily mainline in the fall/winter to 3 daily mainline and 1 daily regional, year-round.

As for Newark- that flight will go back to 7 daily in July, with 2 daily mainline and the remaining 5 regional. The 6 daily flights were a one month cut due to 737 MAX aircraft movement.
 
klm617
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:04 pm

avtcle wrote:
I'll try to keep doing this from month to month as they come out, but here are the load factors from Cleveland for January 2019

January 2019: Keep in mind that January is typically the slowest month of the year -- most loads are much lower than average with the exception of the snowbird routes to Florida.

Air Canada
CLE-YYZ: 52%

American Airlines
CLE-LGA: 47%
CLE-JFK: 56%
CLE-DFW: 72%
CLE-MIA: 91%
CLE-CLT: 76%
CLE-ORD: 67%
CLE-DCA: 56%

Delta Airlines
CLE-ATL: 80%
CLE-DTW: 56%
CLE-MSP: 81%
CLE-RDU: 73%
CLE-BDL: 48%
CLE-SLC: 92%
CLE-LGA: 39%
CLE-JFK: 54%

United Airlines
CLE-BOS: 77%
CLE-LGA: 61%
CLE-EWR: 81%
CLE-DCA: 57%
CLE-IAD: 87%
CLE-RSW: 80%
CLE-CUN: 75%
CLE-DEN: 78%
CLE-ORD: 76%
CLE-IAH: 86%
CLE-LAX: 83%
CLE-MCO: 90%
CLE-SFO: 81%
CLE-FLL: 82%

Frontier Airlines
CLE-DEN: 87%
CLE-RSW: 88%
CLE-TPA: 94%
CLE-CUN: 81%
CLE-SRQ: 84%
CLE-PBI: 74%
CLE-PUJ: 72%
CLE-MCO: 88%
CLE-PHX: 82%
CLE-LAS: 84%

Allegiant Airlines
CLE-PGD: 86%
CLE-SAV: 70%
CLE-PIE: 78%

Spirit Airlines:
CLE-LAX: 73%
CLE-TPA: 67%
CLE-MCO: 82%
CLE-RSW: 73%
CLE-FLL: 80%
CLE-ATL: 75%
CLE-MSY: 63%
CLE-LAS: 86%

Southwest Airlines
CLE-MKE: 45%
CLE-ATL: 76%
CLE-RSW: 90%
CLE-DEN: 88%
CLE-MCO: 90%
CLE-BWI: 68%
CLE-MDW: 70%
CLE-LAS: 85%
CLE-PHX: 86%
CLE-BNA: 81%
CLE-STL: 78%

Jetblue Airways
CLE-BOS: 76%
CLE-FLL: 80%



These numbers are very telling at how Delta diverts traffic to favor certain hubs.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1133
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:14 pm

?? Im not seeing 4 daily to DEN after mid August??

I get everyone’s point on LGa peeling CLE traffic from EWR in UA ( along with a hopefully temporary max cut). But isn’t it interesting that by that logic the same isn’t happening with IAD/DCA? I know someone is going to say that EWR is more advantageous to its home metro area than IAD is to its, but not sure I buy that.
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:09 pm

ncflyer wrote:
?? Im not seeing 4 daily to DEN after mid August??

I get everyone’s point on LGa peeling CLE traffic from EWR in UA ( along with a hopefully temporary max cut). But isn’t it interesting that by that logic the same isn’t happening with IAD/DCA? I know someone is going to say that EWR is more advantageous to its home metro area than IAD is to its, but not sure I buy that.


I wouldn’t be too concerned about it. United simply appears to be shifting its EWR seats in favor of IAD, since it has similar transatlantic capacity, but is much less congested at the same time. So, at the end of the day, as previously noted, mainline flights for United at Cleveland are increasing — meaning more seats to wherever United wants to route their passengers.

United’s schedule for July has long been finalized. EWR will return to 7x daily that month.
 
ncflyer
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Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:51 pm

I never said I was worried about seats to EWR just an observation. We have too little service in CLE to worry about much— no glory in being airport #44 in the rankings!!

Avtcle you didn’t respond to my observation that DEN on UA goes to 3 in mid August. You know something here? You said 4 year round above.
 
avtcle
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:01 am

ncflyer wrote:
I never said I was worried about seats to EWR just an observation. We have too little service in CLE to worry about much— no glory in being airport #44 in the rankings!!

Avtcle you didn’t respond to my observation that DEN on UA goes to 3 in mid August. You know something here? You said 4 year round above.


No. Error on my end.
 
avtcle
Posts: 56
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:08 am

avtcle wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
I never said I was worried about seats to EWR just an observation. We have too little service in CLE to worry about much— no glory in being airport #44 in the rankings!!

Avtcle you didn’t respond to my observation that DEN on UA goes to 3 in mid August. You know something here? You said 4 year round above.


No. Error on my end.


I would however, certainly be concerned with significant service reductions at Cleveland. The airport is vital to our economy and it’s been comfortably growing since 2014.
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:56 am

from enilria's weekly list:

WN CLE-DAL NOV 0>0.2[0] DEC 0>0.2[0]

jplatts has been pushing for DAL for years. This isn't much, but could it be a start? Though CLE-MCI with 100 PDEW would be far more useful to both cities that CLE-DAL.
 
Lapplander800
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:21 am

klm617 wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
This is a slender thread to hang on ... but ... IcelandAir has not removed CLE from its route map and destination list. DFW, another discontinued city, HAS been dropped from the map/dest. list. I wonder if they are planning to try again after the Max grounding thing is over - say spring of '20. Last summer's data said IcelandAir carried good loads; and, with WOW competition gone, I'm guessing FI could improve their yields somewhat. MAybe CLE is worth a second shot.

Alternatively, it's possible they just haven't felt updating their map is a priority. (Occam's razor says go with this.)


The only thing you're missing though is why did FI keep MCI when that was a MAX8 route as well.


Traditional incentives and then more interestingly stop-loss performance guarantees from MCI and the Chamber of Commerce in Kansas City have probably something to do with it.

https://www.kansascity.com/news/politic ... 16934.html
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:51 am

We should probably all just face the hard fact that Icelandair will likely never return to Cleveland. They’ve tarnished their reputation and reliability to the point that no business travelers, or even some leisure travelers for that matter, will want to risk flying them. They were continually trimming their Cleveland service, first by cutting winter flights, then by cutting early spring flights, and then reducing service to 4x weekly just months before the re-launch.

Hopkins should now be focusing, (which I think they clearly are), on enticing Aer Lingus to Cleveland, to offer travelers a more practical and attractive European connection hub via Dublin. I think Cleveland travelers would heartily welcome service to Dublin, not only because we have such a generous Irish population, but also because Dublin is a much more attractive and reliable connection point for business travelers, and Aer Lingus is a more business oriented airline, with a better first class and many more daily flights and connection options.
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:26 pm

I'm not ready to say farewell to FI, yet. If EI comes to town at 7x weekly or some other carrier does at 7x, then FI may move on. Otherwise, nothing about CLE has fundamentally changed and CLE-KEF got very good loads (i know loads are not yields) at 9x weekly. Regarding people being put off by FI's treatment of Cleveland, it is not 1% of what United did to Cleveland, yet people still fly UA. People's memories are short and their options few, so that won't play a big part on whether or not FI returns.
 
plinth857
Posts: 117
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:41 pm

greenair727 wrote:
from enilria's weekly list:

WN CLE-DAL NOV 0>0.2[0] DEC 0>0.2[0]

jplatts has been pushing for DAL for years. This isn't much, but could it be a start? Though CLE-MCI with 100 PDEW would be far more useful to both cities that CLE-DAL.


While I'm happy they're dipping their toe in the market, one flight each way on Sunday won't attract much in my opinion. I make a monthly trip out to Dallas, so I was always hoping for this route, but unfortunately the way they have it scheduled, I won't be able to use it.
 
klm617
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Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:01 pm

avtcle wrote:
We should probably all just face the hard fact that Icelandair will likely never return to Cleveland. They’ve tarnished their reputation and reliability to the point that no business travelers, or even some leisure travelers for that matter, will want to risk flying them. They were continually trimming their Cleveland service, first by cutting winter flights, then by cutting early spring flights, and then reducing service to 4x weekly just months before the re-launch.

Hopkins should now be focusing, (which I think they clearly are), on enticing Aer Lingus to Cleveland, to offer travelers a more practical and attractive European connection hub via Dublin. I think Cleveland travelers would heartily welcome service to Dublin, not only because we have such a generous Irish population, but also because Dublin is a much more attractive and reliable connection point for business travelers, and Aer Lingus is a more business oriented airline, with a better first class and many more daily flights and connection options.


I have to disagree I think if CLE want's a sustainable transatlantic link I think DY is thier best option followed by DE. There is no preimum traffic in CLE to to capture for EI. They would not give CLE any other one stop options that are better than they already have. CLE needs to be linked to a major market in Europe to maintain the link because when the money runs out there goes the service. CLE-LGW is sustainable heck even CLE-LHR on BA is better spent money than EI to DUB.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
avtcle
Posts: 56
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:43 pm

klm617 wrote:
avtcle wrote:
We should probably all just face the hard fact that Icelandair will likely never return to Cleveland. They’ve tarnished their reputation and reliability to the point that no business travelers, or even some leisure travelers for that matter, will want to risk flying them. They were continually trimming their Cleveland service, first by cutting winter flights, then by cutting early spring flights, and then reducing service to 4x weekly just months before the re-launch.

Hopkins should now be focusing, (which I think they clearly are), on enticing Aer Lingus to Cleveland, to offer travelers a more practical and attractive European connection hub via Dublin. I think Cleveland travelers would heartily welcome service to Dublin, not only because we have such a generous Irish population, but also because Dublin is a much more attractive and reliable connection point for business travelers, and Aer Lingus is a more business oriented airline, with a better first class and many more daily flights and connection options.


I have to disagree I think if CLE want's a sustainable transatlantic link I think DY is thier best option followed by DE. There is no preimum traffic in CLE to to capture for EI. They would not give CLE any other one stop options that are better than they already have. CLE needs to be linked to a major market in Europe to maintain the link because when the money runs out there goes the service. CLE-LGW is sustainable heck even CLE-LHR on BA is better spent money than EI to DUB.


Unfortunately Cleveland will never be able to attract carriers like Delta or British Airways without a significant incentive, which the state of Ohio cannot offer. While Norwegian likely could do well here, I don’t think they’re in the financial position to start service to another midsize city — too much risk involved. Aer Lingus is similar in nature to Icelandair, but still offers more premium service to a larger and more accessible hub. If they’re interested, we need to convince them to come here instead of waiting for someone else.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1465
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:31 am

klm617 wrote:
avtcle wrote:
We should probably all just face the hard fact that Icelandair will likely never return to Cleveland. They’ve tarnished their reputation and reliability to the point that no business travelers, or even some leisure travelers for that matter, will want to risk flying them. They were continually trimming their Cleveland service, first by cutting winter flights, then by cutting early spring flights, and then reducing service to 4x weekly just months before the re-launch.

Hopkins should now be focusing, (which I think they clearly are), on enticing Aer Lingus to Cleveland, to offer travelers a more practical and attractive European connection hub via Dublin. I think Cleveland travelers would heartily welcome service to Dublin, not only because we have such a generous Irish population, but also because Dublin is a much more attractive and reliable connection point for business travelers, and Aer Lingus is a more business oriented airline, with a better first class and many more daily flights and connection options.


I have to disagree I think if CLE want's a sustainable transatlantic link I think DY is thier best option followed by DE. There is no preimum traffic in CLE to to capture for EI. They would not give CLE any other one stop options that are better than they already have. CLE needs to be linked to a major market in Europe to maintain the link because when the money runs out there goes the service. CLE-LGW is sustainable heck even CLE-LHR on BA is better spent money than EI to DUB.


With somewhere near 16 premium seats, EI will do fine. Eaton has to be involved for that to happen with the direct link to their Global HQ, but they'd be crazy not to be as it will save the 3 hrs each way.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1465
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:37 am

Some notes from CLE last night.
- New construction in TSA gate C. Not sure of the nature, but looks like an upgrade of some sort.
- Minor construction on the baggage level looks to be a new baggage office.
- Our UA flight crew from DEN was noting the large # of pax that were connecting from LAS and lamenting that they don't offer LAS any longer...same for us PAX.
- Interesting that a few people from DEN on UA were connecting in CLE to DCA. I would not have guessed that routing.
- AA parking planes at Concourse D (remotely) and DL at A. Business is clearly up for those two.
- Didn't get a chance to look at the new remote parking drop off area construction ("Transportation Center"), but the current setup on nearest is not overly impressive.
 
greenair727
Posts: 1210
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:22 pm

fun2fly wrote:
Some notes from CLE last night.
...
- Interesting that a few people from DEN on UA were connecting in CLE to DCA. I would not have guessed that routing.
....


Thanks for the update. yes, that DEN-CLE-DCA routing is interesting. It caused me to go to United's website. A feature I hadn't seen before--maybe its new--is you can control which cities you want to connect in when the routes/prices/times are shown. CLE is one of the cities on this O&D pair. (By default, all the cities are checked--you have to go in and uncheck things like SFO if you don't want them included.)
 
avtcle
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:53 pm

February Load Factors have just been released and here they are:

Air Canada Express:
CLE-YYZ: 61%

American Airlines:
CLE-LGA: 59%
CLE-JFK: 61%
CLE-DFW: 77%
CLE-CLT: 83%
CLE-MIA: 94%
CLE-ORD: 71%
CLE-PHL: 72%
CLE-DCA: 63%

Allegiant Airlines:
CLE-SAV: 83%
CLE-PGD: 93%
CLE-PIE: 79%
CLE-SFB: 92%
CLE-JAX: 82%

United Airlines:
CLE-LGA: 67%
CLE-EWR: 82%
CLE-BOS: 85%
CLE-ORD: 81%
CLE-IAH: 83%
CLE-LAX: 80%
CLE-SFO: 77%
CLE-DCA: 60%
CLE-DEN: 82%
CLE-IAD: 90%
CLE-MCO: 95%
CLE-FLL: 90%
CLE-RSW: 93%
CLE-CUN: 80%

Delta Airlines:
CLE-LGA: 60%
CLE-JFK: 56%
CLE-ATL: 85%
CLE-BDL: 51%
CLE-RDU: 75%
CLE-MSP: 86%
CLE-DTW: 64%

JetBlue Airways:
CLE-BOS: 84%
CLE-FLL: 77%

Spirit Airlines:
CLE-MCO: 97%
CLE-RSW: 93%
CLE-FLL: 93%
CLE-MSY: 78%
CLE-LAX: 82%
CLE-TPA: 92%
CLE-ATL: 80%
CLE-LAS: 85%

Southwest Airlines:
CLE-DEN: 92%
CLE-MCO: 91%
CLE-RSW: 95%
CLE-MKE: 60%
CLE-PHX: 90%
CLE-LAS: 85%
CLE-ATL: 85%
CLE-BNA: 86%
CLE-STL: 85%
CLE-BWI: 72%
CLE-MDW: 73%

Frontier Airlines:
CLE-DEN: 86%
CLE-MCO: 96%
CLE-RSW: 93%
CLE-CUN: 83%
CLE-TPA: 96%
CLE-LAS: 90%
CLE-PHX: 83%
CLE-SRQ: 97% -- Great Performance for this new route!
CLE-PBI: 76%
CLE-PUJ: 72%
CLE-SAN: 85%
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1133
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:36 pm

Great stuff AVTCLE.

Is slot sitting until summer loads creep up the reason CLE has the frequencies it does to DCA JFK LGa? The loads are awful. CLE is only city with 4x to JFK I could find on delta outside of the big boys such as Boston. Even DTW only has 4x to JFK (bigger aircraft).
 
greenair727
Posts: 1210
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:34 pm

^Remember, though, these are loads not yields. CLE is a major economic center as are DC and NY, so while loads may be light, the profits may be high and the market demands frequency. If CLE-MCO was 60%, it'd be dropped, but NY/DC-CLE are important business routes.
 
SgtBarone
Posts: 229
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:49 pm

Loads ≠ yields. There's a reason for these frequencies despite lower than average loads, just like there's a reason why a route like daily DL CLE-BDL has stuck around for over five years. These routes make money.

Speaking of loads, it's nice to see DL CLE-RDU slowly mature over the past few years. My brother's wife flies this each month as she works in the pharmaceutical industry. Many of her colleagues are based in CLE and they also use it regularly.
AGP ATL BCN BNA BOS CLE CLT DCA DEN FLG FLL FRA IAD IAH JAX LAX LGB MAD MCI MDW MKE MUC PHX RDU RSW SEA SJU SLC SNA TPA
 
SgtBarone
Posts: 229
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:33 pm

And thank you for pulling these numbers, AVT. Much appreciated.
AGP ATL BCN BNA BOS CLE CLT DCA DEN FLG FLL FRA IAD IAH JAX LAX LGB MAD MCI MDW MKE MUC PHX RDU RSW SEA SJU SLC SNA TPA
 
greenair727
Posts: 1210
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:38 am

masseybrown wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
Some info on the Ford plants: For "producing game-changing automotive technologies...At least one of the game changing technologies is the plasma ignition system, also known as the sparkless ignition, according to a party involved with sales transaction." What's the airport impact? More flights to Detroit?

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/05/ ... do-to.html


As long as somebody else is naming names ... VW was the rumor I had heard, potentially a much bigger deal than Tenneco.


VW? Interesting. VW was looking for a US location to build electric vehicles---but recently announced it would build them next to an existing plant they already have in Tennessee. ("The new factory will be built next to VW's existing plant in Chattanooga, Tennessee. It will begin producing EVs for North America in 2022. The EVs will be built on VW's modular electric toolkit chassis, known as MEB." https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/ ... v-plant-us)

Or did something change about the Chattanooga plan? Or would VW manufacture parts or other things in CLE to ship to TN for final assembly? Airport/air traffic-wise Chatanooga looks like it is midway between Nashville and Atlanta.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5331
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:14 pm

The VW speculation was based on the Ford-VW cooperation agreement signed last winter for trucks and electric/self-driving vehicles. Admittedly the details of the agreement are somewhere between fuzzy and unknown; but there was one report that said future co-op efforts would use existing facilities and UAW workers. The Cleveland sites fit that description and this is one of the few rumors that would actually justify the word "game-changer".
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:14 pm

United Airlines will start flying nonstop Saturday flights from Cleveland to Fort Myers tomorrow. Unfortunately no Fort Lauderdale or Tampa summer flights, so they must’ve seen strong demand for Fort Myers this year.

Flights will be operated every Saturday through the end of August on a Republic Airways Embraer ERJ-175, joining their Saturday flights to Charleston, SC.

Maybe this is a test to see if they can push some of these winter routes to year-round again? Let’s hope! Nevertheless it’s good to see United continuing its slow growth here. It’s small but it’s something! Daily mainline flights from CLE to RSW and FLL resume Dec. 4, 2019
 
SgtBarone
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:07 pm

CLE-ORF on G4 also kicks off this afternoon. Their service to CHS launched yesterday.
AGP ATL BCN BNA BOS CLE CLT DCA DEN FLG FLL FRA IAD IAH JAX LAX LGB MAD MCI MDW MKE MUC PHX RDU RSW SEA SJU SLC SNA TPA
 
Robert1010
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:35 pm

LCK-CHS starts today also , and I’ll be on it !
 
VetteDude
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:01 pm

As much as everyone elsewhere on this site likes to talk about how Cleveland deserved to be de-hubbed and how awful of a place it is, I wonder if the new United regime is starting to see a little value in taking advantage of the focus city operations. Cleveland has proven it can grow when fares are reasonable (the hub hurt because fares were so high), and United already has a lot of fixed infrastructure - maintenance base, crew base, not to mention huge bond payments that they can't get out of. Interestingly, United does very little point to point flying, except for adding a little from Cleveland every once and a while these days.
 
corn4ahead
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:06 pm

VetteDude wrote:
As much as everyone elsewhere on this site likes to talk about how Cleveland deserved to be de-hubbed and how awful of a place it is, I wonder if the new United regime is starting to see a little value in taking advantage of the focus city operations. Cleveland has proven it can grow when fares are reasonable (the hub hurt because fares were so high), and United already has a lot of fixed infrastructure - maintenance base, crew base, not to mention huge bond payments that they can't get out of. Interestingly, United does very little point to point flying, except for adding a little from Cleveland every once and a while these days.


I always find it interesting that we get a lot of the UA diverts when the East coast shuts down. It's always UA too. i.e. the 2 772s from China and a few other randoms last week.
 
ncflyer
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:47 pm

In principle I’d agree that these little ads by UA give me hope, but UA also makes decisions like surrendering BOS to Delta. Hard to reconcile the two actions…

It’s been quiet too on the rumors that CLE will relieve ord during construction.
 
randinator75
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:38 pm

I usually fly Cle-Las several times a year and always use UA. Although the past few years I have had to connect in ORD or DEN, you always hear other flyers talking about how they miss the nonstop Cle to Las flight that was dropped a few years back. Does anything think they would ever bring that flight back? I remember years ago there were 3-4 daily departures back in the day. There are always customers like me who wish not to fly Spirit or Frontier and would pay more to fly UA, so the nonstop flight would be great if it did come back.
 
masseybrown
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:27 pm

The difference five years makes ... CLE's top ten destinations with trailing 12 month passenger totals for Feb 2014 and Feb 2019

ORD 359K ... ATL 458K
CLT 232K ... ORD 410K
ATL 210K ... DEN 240K
MDW 209K ... MCO 230K
IAH 185K ... CLT 195K
BWI 164K ... MDW 185K
EWR 161K ... LAS 185K
LGA 153K ... DFW 184K
DEN 143K ... LGA 179K
PHL 141K ... LAX 150K

8.39 million ... 9.17 million

This summer AA and DL are running 37 and 34 dailies respectively. I believe this is a high for both since the pre-CO hub 1980s.
 
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STT757
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:22 pm

Looking at the numbers it seems that CLE is doing a great job of recovering traffic Lost when they lost the CO/ UA hub. I think CLE can catch up to their peak 2000 numbers soon.

That for instance compared to STL, where they’re barely at 50% of the traffic of the TWA days despite the WN growth.

What’s the secret of their success?



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Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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flyPIT
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:51 pm

STT757 wrote:
Looking at the numbers it seems that CLE is doing a great job of recovering traffic Lost when they lost the CO/ UA hub. I think CLE can catch up to their peak 2000 numbers soon.

That for instance compared to STL, where they’re barely at 50% of the traffic of the TWA days despite the WN growth.

What’s the secret of their success?

STL is 50% busier than CLE.......
FLYi
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:30 pm

^Why is STL 50% busier than CLE?

The economy of CLE is bigger (Source BEA, 2017):

Cleveland (7-counties incl Akron) MSA: $175B
St. Louis MSA: $161B

Is it because Hopkins competes with CAK, PIT, and DTW, where as STL doesn't have close, competing airports?
 
masseybrown
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:33 pm

STT757 wrote:
Looking at the numbers it seems that CLE is doing a great job of recovering traffic Lost when they lost the CO/ UA hub. I think CLE can catch up to their peak 2000 numbers soon.

That for instance compared to STL, where they’re barely at 50% of the traffic of the TWA days despite the WN growth.

What’s the secret of their success?


TW's STL was a MUCH bigger hub than CO's CLE.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:45 pm

greenair727 wrote:
^Why is STL 50% busier than CLE?

The economy of CLE is bigger (Source BEA, 2017):

Cleveland (7-counties incl Akron) MSA: $175B
St. Louis MSA: $161B

Is it because Hopkins competes with CAK, PIT, and DTW, where as STL doesn't have close, competing airports?


1) It's a de facto hub for WN;

2) The St. Louis-area is much larger than the Cleveland area, with nearly 1M more residents.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:57 pm

^Cleveland is a much larger than STL---CLE CSA is 3.6M to STL's 2.9M. Akron works hard to pretend its separate from Cleveland--don't fall for that.
 
ncflyer
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:22 pm

St Louis is more isolated. Cleveland is drivable to Chicago and all cities on the east coast. Also Toronto. DC is a super easy drive. STL is drivable to Chicago but nowhere else.
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:35 pm

masseybrown wrote:
The difference five years makes ... CLE's top ten destinations with trailing 12 month passenger totals for Feb 2014 and Feb 2019

ORD 359K ... ATL 458K
CLT 232K ... ORD 410K
ATL 210K ... DEN 240K
MDW 209K ... MCO 230K
IAH 185K ... CLT 195K
BWI 164K ... MDW 185K
EWR 161K ... LAS 185K
LGA 153K ... DFW 184K
DEN 143K ... LGA 179K
PHL 141K ... LAX 150K

8.39 million ... 9.17 million

This summer AA and DL are running 37 and 34 dailies respectively. I believe this is a high for both since the pre-CO hub 1980s.


Good data. Do you have it by city instead of airport, combining for example, LGA/JFK/EWR, MDW/ORD, DFW/DAL, LAX/LGB/ONT/SNA, IAH/HOU, and IAD/DCA/BWI?
 
JP12
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:39 pm

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet or not but noticed this last Sunday at the airport:

https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/tr ... ation.html

I was flying out closer to 23 and noticed that they had covered the blue pillars in the terminal with white United boards that had video monitors in them containing weather and flight information as well as small self-service kiosks that almost looked like tablets on stands. I briefly walked by 17 & 18 which looked like they had much larger video monitors containing flight information near the gate. I'll be back there on Sunday again so if I have time i'll try and grab some photos.

Regardless, always good to see United willing to test new ideas at CLE.

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