plinth857
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:49 pm

masseybrown wrote:
WN schedule extension is a net zero through March 6. CLE loses once a week to DAL and gains once a week to FLL.


I'm sure those once a week routes are hard to be profitable. Plus, the times weren't optimal, really. I'd use the flight for certain if it was daily or better timed. AA's non basic economy fares on the nonstops are quite high for the weekend flights I need to take.
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:29 pm

plinth857 wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
WN schedule extension is a net zero through March 6. CLE loses once a week to DAL and gains once a week to FLL.


I'm sure those once a week routes are hard to be profitable. Plus, the times weren't optimal, really. I'd use the flight for certain if it was daily or better timed. AA's non basic economy fares on the nonstops are quite high for the weekend flights I need to take.


Interesting. You think they’d want to give DAL a longer chance if they plan to build a base for the route, and perhaps expand it.
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:14 pm

^Cleveland-Warsaw or -Budapest could be weekly. But not Dallas. You can't build a base on such horrendously crappy service for a market pair like CLE-Dallas, especially if there is established incumbent service, albeit to a different airport, offered multiple times per day everyday (AA).
 
swacle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:18 pm

PHX also goes to less than daily, Saturday-Sunday only for January and February.
Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
 
joeman
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:48 pm

avtcle wrote:
Domestic Load factors through 2019-04 are out and here they are:

Southwest Airlines:
CLE-PHX: 93%


swacle wrote:
PHX also goes to less than daily, Saturday-Sunday only for January and February.

Fascinating
 
ncflyer
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:08 pm

Granted these are short term moves but anyone on her still think WN might be wanting to move to D or Burke— as was discussed on this thread recently.
 
Geowizical
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:31 pm

swacle wrote:
PHX also goes to less than daily, Saturday-Sunday only for January and February.


I honestly don't know why United doesn't reenter this market. Or American... It seems like a no-brainer with slightly decreasing WN service and once daily on F9. There was to be a market for non-LCC on this route... but what do I know
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:40 pm

But American went for CVG-PHX instead... a market that is now so oversatured its unreal. No midsize airport needs 3 LCCs (Southwest, Frontier and Allegiant [AZA] ) and 2 legacy carriers (Delta and American) serving a single airport with limited demand — especially Phoenix. One or two is bound to fail.

United should certainly re-enter this market from Cleveland. They already have a following here, why not take advantage of a route starved for legacy service?
 
jplatts
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:40 pm

avtcle wrote:
But American went for CVG-PHX instead... a market that is now so oversatured its unreal. No midsize airport needs 3 LCCs (Southwest, Frontier and Allegiant [AZA] ) and 2 legacy carriers (Delta and American) serving a single airport with limited demand — especially Phoenix. One or two is bound to fail.

United should certainly re-enter this market from Cleveland. They already have a following here, why not take advantage of a route starved for legacy service?


WN will also be reducing BUF-PHX and SDF-PHX nonstop service to weekend-only starting on January 4, 2020.

BNA and TUL are also the only remaining destinations with year-round, daily nonstop service to PHX on WN but not on AA.

WN was also able to make daily CVG-PHX seasonal nonstop service work in both Spring 2018 and Spring 2019 as WN had load factors of over 88% on CVG-PHX in both Spring 2018 and Spring 2019. There is also likely enough demand for more than just F9 on CVG-PHX on a year-round basis as the PDEW on CVG-PHX (excluding G4 CVG-AZA) was 183 passengers/per day in 2018.

WN can likely make CVG-PHX nonstop service work on a year-round basis as WN would have connecting feed from Southern California and O&D from Greater Phoenix to support CVG-PHX nonstop service, whereas F9 and G4 have to rely on more O&D on both ends of the route to make CVG-PHX/AZA nonstop service work. WN also has 737-700's with fewer seats than F9's A320's or G4's A319's that can be used on the CVG-PHX nonstop route.

MCI and STL are both mid-sized Midwestern airports that have 5 or more daily nonstops to PHX, but WN has a much bigger presence at MCI and STL than at CVG, CMH, or CLE. There are also fewer carriers serving the PHX/AZA market nonstop from MCI and STL than from CVG.

Even though WN decided to reduce CLE-PHX nonstop service to weekend-only starting on January 4th, there was likely enough demand for WN to operate daily CLE-PHX nonstop service on a year-round basis as the load factors on CLE-PHX was over 90% in 2018 and over 88% in the first 4 months of 2019.

AA and WN both have a stronger FF base in the Greater Phoenix market than UA does, and there are also some WN FF's in Greater Phoenix who prefer to fly on WN over AA or UA due to WN having nonstop service out of PHX to destinations that AA or UA don't serve nonstop from PHX.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:51 am

plinth857 wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
WN schedule extension is a net zero through March 6. CLE loses once a week to DAL and gains once a week to FLL.


I'm sure those once a week routes are hard to be profitable. Plus, the times weren't optimal, really. I'd use the flight for certain if it was daily or better timed. AA's non basic economy fares on the nonstops are quite high for the weekend flights I need to take.

It makes a lot more sense to a large leisure market like FLL rather than DAL.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
Jshank83
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:16 am

masseybrown wrote:
WN schedule extension is a net zero through Marhc 6. CLE loses once a week to DAL and gains once a week fo FLL.


I have an extra STL mon-fri if you are comparing to last Jan/feb. 3 now instead of 2
 
masseybrown
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:03 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
WN schedule extension is a net zero through Marhc 6. CLE loses once a week to DAL and gains once a week fo FLL.


I have an extra STL mon-fri if you are comparing to last Jan/feb. 3 now instead of 2


I was comparing routes not freqs. :smile:
 
plinth857
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:08 pm

I think it's more likely that AA re-enters the PHX market if it becomes underserved. It would be a P2P flight for United, although CLE still has a few of those being a "focus city."
 
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CLEguy
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:08 pm

It's been almost 2 years since Icelandair, followed by WOW the next day, announced service to CLE. Let's hope we get another such transatlantic announcement soon, this time from a more reliable carrier. One can only hope!
 
masseybrown
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:44 pm

Slow but steady seems to be the story ...

"Last year, passenger traffic topped 9.6 million. This year, it’s on track to exceed 10 million. Kennedy expects about 10.6 million passengers in 2020."

https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2019 ... shows.html
 
joeman
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:40 am

masseybrown wrote:
Slow but steady seems to be the story ...

"Last year, passenger traffic topped 9.6 million. This year, it’s on track to exceed 10 million. Kennedy expects about 10.6 million passengers in 2020."

https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2019 ... shows.html

The reader comment section is interesting. Negative ones seem to generally concern a sense of leisure travel focus and poor facilities.
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:30 pm

Cleveland Airport System bond rating improved: "Fitch Ratings, one of the three major bond rating services, this week raised its grade for Cleveland Hopkins International Airport from BBB+ to A-, a move that could help save the airport millions in coming years. Fitch’s action follows similar moves by Moody’s Investor Service and Standard & Poors Global Ratings, each of which raised the city-owned airport’s bond ratings a year ago."

https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2019 ... costs.html
 
jplatts
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:36 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
plinth857 wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
WN schedule extension is a net zero through March 6. CLE loses once a week to DAL and gains once a week to FLL.


I'm sure those once a week routes are hard to be profitable. Plus, the times weren't optimal, really. I'd use the flight for certain if it was daily or better timed. AA's non basic economy fares on the nonstops are quite high for the weekend flights I need to take.

It makes a lot more sense to a large leisure market like FLL rather than DAL.


I was actually expecting to be more competition on CLE-DFW/DAL with AA and CO both serving DFW nonstop from CLE and WN serving DAL nonstop from CLE subsequent to the repeal of the Wright Amendment, but AA is currently the only airline having year-round daily nonstop service to the DFW/DAL market from CLE.

While CLE-DFW/DAL has less competition than was expected 10 years ago, other markets such as ATL, BOS, CVG, DEN, LAS, LAX, MIA/FLL, MSP, NYC, MCO, PHL, SFO/OAK/SJC, SEA, TPA, and WAS have more competition to DFW/DAL today than was expected 10 years ago.
 
masseybrown
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:20 pm

From the City Planning Commission agenda last Friday:
"Ordinance No. 876-2019(Ward 3/Councilmember McCormack): Authorizing the Director of Port Control to enter into a Lease Agreement with Ultimate JetCharters, LLC dba Ultimate Air Shuttle, LLC for the lease of certain space located in the passenger terminal building at Burke Lakefront Airport, for the Department of Port Control, for a period of two years, with three one-year options to renew, the first of which requires additional legislative authority."

I guess Ultimate plans on sticking around. It would be nice if they had some growth in mind.
 
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CLEguy
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:00 pm

greenair727 wrote:
Cleveland Airport System bond rating improved: "Fitch Ratings, one of the three major bond rating services, this week raised its grade for Cleveland Hopkins International Airport from BBB+ to A-, a move that could help save the airport millions in coming years. Fitch’s action follows similar moves by Moody’s Investor Service and Standard & Poors Global Ratings, each of which raised the city-owned airport’s bond ratings a year ago."

https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2019 ... costs.html


From that article: "The airport is in negotiating stages with potential consultants to draw up a new master plan. Kennedy expects a decision perhaps as soon as this month"
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:07 pm

United announcing new international routes tomorrow... I know it’s far fetched & unrealistic to suggest that we could be one of them but I am hoping for maybe a new destination for Cleveland... Perhaps a return to Phoenix, Las Vegas, maybe even Seattle? I know last year they announced the additional flights from CLE to LAX/SFO/MCO at this time and they announced the additional flights to FLL/RSW/TPA in November.
 
jplatts
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:24 pm

avtcle wrote:
United announcing new international routes tomorrow... I know it’s far fetched & unrealistic to suggest that we could be one of them but I am hoping for maybe a new destination for Cleveland... Perhaps a return to Phoenix, Las Vegas, maybe even Seattle? I know last year they announced the additional flights from CLE to LAX/SFO/MCO at this time and they announced the additional flights to FLL/RSW/TPA in November.


AS adding CLE-SEA is more likely than UA re-adding CLE-SEA nonstop service as UA's current nonstop service out of CLE is to hubs, LGA, DCA, and Florida.

I agree that the lack of CLE-SEA nonstop service on a non-ULCC is a huge hole, even though F9 has less-than-daily seasonal nonstop service to SEA from CLE.
 
ncflyer
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:23 pm

I expect zero from this announcement for CLE, as it appears this is an international announcement.

I do wonder what happened to the rumor on this thread that UA would use CLE to relieve ORD during ORD's extensive renovation. If true, that would be a nice pickup, even if temporary.
 
joeman
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:45 pm

jplatts wrote:
avtcle wrote:
United announcing new international routes tomorrow... I know it’s far fetched & unrealistic to suggest that we could be one of them but I am hoping for maybe a new destination for Cleveland... Perhaps a return to Phoenix, Las Vegas, maybe even Seattle? I know last year they announced the additional flights from CLE to LAX/SFO/MCO at this time and they announced the additional flights to FLL/RSW/TPA in November.


AS adding CLE-SEA is more likely than UA re-adding CLE-SEA nonstop service as UA's current nonstop service out of CLE is to hubs, LGA, DCA, and Florida.

I agree that the lack of CLE-SEA nonstop service on a non-ULCC is a huge hole, even though F9 has less-than-daily seasonal nonstop service to SEA from CLE.

Amen to that! Even though CLE-SEA was one of F9's first additions after the dehub, as time marched on and F9's pattern was seasonal only, and then less than daily and many system route add/deletes, I honestly thought CLE could've been one of the 1st AS midwest expansion adds
ncflyer wrote:
I expect zero from this announcement for CLE, as it appears this is an international announcement.

I do wonder what happened to the rumor on this thread that UA would use CLE to relieve ORD during ORD's extensive renovation. If true, that would be a nice pickup, even if temporary.

Unlike DL's developing focus cities I don't look to UA for anything, ever, even during a further renovation or expansion of ORD and get mildly surprised when they bring back Florida routes for any length of time or supposedly commit to 2 daily year-round CLE-LAX and CLE-SFO roundtrips.
Last edited by joeman on Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:46 pm

It would cost way to much for United to temporarily shift services to Cleveland from Chicago. The costs would outweigh the benefit. They simply don’t have the space for it anymore. After the TPA add last fall, I’m hoping they’re looking at other snowbird destinations they can try out again... I’ve heard the rumors circulating that a weekend PHX flight may return for the spring.
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:36 pm

UA announcement is 11am ET today. Will it be CLE-FRA, a Sat only CLE-Florida, or nothing....?
 
Geowizical
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:01 pm

greenair727 wrote:
UA announcement is 11am ET today. Will it be CLE-FRA, a Sat only CLE-Florida, or nothing....?


It’s an international announcement, so no CLE-Florida or CLE-PHX/SEA/LAS... unless they add new domestic routes on the side, but it won’t be part of the announcement

My bet is nothing, but here’s hoping for something. At this point, even if it is a seasonal, once a week flight to somewhere in Europe, I would be happy. It’s a start...
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:25 pm

yep. nothing for CLE. and not a big int'l expansion anyway, mostly UA hype.
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:32 pm

Still holding on hope for Aer Lingus! We should be hearing from them very soon.
 
masseybrown
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:38 pm

avtcle wrote:
It would cost way to much for United to temporarily shift services to Cleveland from Chicago. The costs would outweigh the benefit. They simply don’t have the space for it anymore. After the TPA add last fall, I’m hoping they’re looking at other snowbird destinations they can try out again... I’ve heard the rumors circulating that a weekend PHX flight may return for the spring.


No space? Fifty flights using 12 gates says UA could probably squeeze in another flight or two. ;)

I'd like to see UA restore a few flights to New England cities with good Cleveland business connections like ALB, BDL, and PVD. Use CLE to let those cities connect to CLE's existing western US destinations, while a reduced, but higher capacity number of ORD flights could be used for the NE points to connect to smaller cities missing in CLE. The result would be fewer ORD flights, while enhancing their CLE service pattern. It's sort of what WN is doing at MDW.
 
kavok
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:24 pm

avtcle wrote:
Still holding on hope for Aer Lingus! We should be hearing from them very soon.


Aer Lingus has historically (over the last few years) made their new TATL announcements in mid September. Last year’s announcement for the new TATL service that started in summer 2019 was made on September 12th.

I would expect a similar time frame for them announcing any new 2020 routes.
Last edited by kavok on Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
joeman
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:40 pm

masseybrown wrote:
avtcle wrote:
It would cost way to much for United to temporarily shift services to Cleveland from Chicago. The costs would outweigh the benefit. They simply don’t have the space for it anymore. After the TPA add last fall, I’m hoping they’re looking at other snowbird destinations they can try out again... I’ve heard the rumors circulating that a weekend PHX flight may return for the spring.


No space? Fifty flights using 12 gates says UA could probably squeeze in another flight or two. ;)

I'd like to see UA restore a few flights to New England cities with good Cleveland business connections like ALB, BDL, and PVD. Use CLE to let those cities connect to CLE's existing western US destinations, while a reduced, but higher capacity number of ORD flights could be used for the NE points to connect to smaller cities missing in CLE. The result would be fewer ORD flights, while enhancing their CLE service pattern. It's sort of what WN is doing at MDW.

I'm with you and hoping for the monkey see monkey do effect given DL focus city development :wink2:
 
masseybrown
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:47 pm

joeman wrote:
I'm with you and hoping for the monkey see monkey do effect given DL focus city development :wink2:


I don't think it will happen, of course. AA and UA are almost without exception committed to the hubs-only approach. DL is committed to doing what's profitable.
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:58 pm

Finally: Red Line rail service will resume operations tomorrow (Monday) after begin shut down for a few months for repair of a retaining wall around 98 St.
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:49 pm

Summary of Cleveland changes from enilria's weekly list:

UA CLE-FLL FEB 1.0>0.7[1.0] APR 0.1>1.0[1.1] MAY 0>1.0[0]
UA CLE-SFO NOV 1.7>1.0[1.6]
WN BNA-CLE NOV 2>1.7[2]
WN CLE-PHX NOV 1.1>0.6[1.0]
WN CLE-STL NOV 2>2.0[1.8]

Is UA keeping FLL year-round? A 1x daily on CLE-SFO is really crazy.
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:16 pm

Looks like CLE-FLL with United is being pushed to year-round! A daily 737-800 departure @ 7 AM is visible through the entire released schedule.
 
joeman
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:51 am

greenair727 wrote:
Summary of Cleveland changes from enilria's weekly list:

UA CLE-SFO NOV 1.7>1.0[1.6]

Is UA keeping FLL year-round? A 1x daily on CLE-SFO is really crazy.


So much for the 2 daily year round CLE-SFO flights publicity
https://www.clevelandairport.com/united ... do-and-san
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:05 am

joeman wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
Summary of Cleveland changes from enilria's weekly list:

UA CLE-SFO NOV 1.7>1.0[1.6]

Is UA keeping FLL year-round? A 1x daily on CLE-SFO is really crazy.


So much for the 2 daily year round CLE-SFO flights publicity
https://www.clevelandairport.com/united ... do-and-san


For once this is a United cut that I agree with. Load Factors weren’t that great and certainly didn’t warrant the need for that extra flight in the off season. It’ll only be at one daily flight for 4 months. It’ll be back up to 2x daily by March 2, 2020.

Let’s just enjoy that fact that United is actually expanding MAINLINE service in Cleveland to a NON-HUB destination. Will be great to see that FLL departure every day, all year!
 
ncflyer
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:40 am

Avtcle I was more excited when UA added a third summer flight to LAX and that, unfortunately, was short lived. Announced but withdrawn.
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:42 am

ncflyer wrote:
Avtcle I was more excited when UA added a third summer flight to LAX and that, unfortunately, was short lived. Announced but withdrawn.


I’d expect to see that 3rd LAX flight on the schedule for next summer - given that the 737 MAX will almost certainly be back in the air by then.
 
joeman
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:25 pm

avtcle wrote:
joeman wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
Summary of Cleveland changes from enilria's weekly list:

UA CLE-SFO NOV 1.7>1.0[1.6]

Is UA keeping FLL year-round? A 1x daily on CLE-SFO is really crazy.


So much for the 2 daily year round CLE-SFO flights publicity
https://www.clevelandairport.com/united ... do-and-san


For once this is a United cut that I agree with. Load Factors weren’t that great and certainly didn’t warrant the need for that extra flight in the off season. It’ll only be at one daily flight for 4 months. It’ll be back up to 2x daily by March 2, 2020.

Let’s just enjoy that fact that United is actually expanding MAINLINE service in Cleveland to a NON-HUB destination. Will be great to see that FLL departure every day, all year!


I'm with you on the positive side!!!
 
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CLEguy
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:28 am

This other thread has a totally unsubstantiated rumor about a major transatlantic service announcement from BA coming soon:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1430085

Anyone hear any rumblings?
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:31 am

Does anyone think we could actually land a flight to LHR without a major incentive package? Is the Cleveland Clinic allowed to put together a private incentive package to lure the carrier — especially with their new London facility in full operation? It would be amazing if Cleveland could snatch a nonstop to LHR with BA, but Aer Lingus looks much more realistic in the current environment.
 
ncflyer
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:14 am

CCF London 200 beds. Small potatoes. Once hiring is ramped up I can’t imagine much traveling back and forth on a daily basis. Personally I think BA would be wiser to advertise in cleveland for its Pittsburgh flights, and maybe even contract for daily van service to Beachwood Place parking lot, than to add a flight so close by.
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:14 am

^I would never drive to PIT for a flight to LHR. I'd connect in NY or somewhere first. Not only is it a 2-3 hr drive, but it undermines Cleveland as a market while strengthening the air service of another city.
 
ncflyer
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:08 am

1:45 from Beachwood Place outside of the very short evening rush, fares out of PIT are hundreds cheaper on some international routes, adds up big for a family. Both cities and airports would be better off if they worked together. It’s not a zero sum game. F9s superior network out of CLE really opens up possibilities for Pittsburgh travelers for instance, perhaps enabling air travel that would be otherwise unaffordable for many.
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:37 pm

^"1:45 from Beachwood Place" Beachwood Place? Since when is that any kind of center for the city? You could probably say "1:35" then from the corner of X and X in Solon. Its at least 30 min from Downtown to Beachwood. I agree that there are a lot of synergies AS CITIES between Cleveland and Pittsburgh---much more than say Cleveland and Columbus. But when it comes to air service, its far more about competition than working together given the seriousness of the matter and how it affects each city's economy.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:16 pm

ncflyer wrote:
1:45 from Beachwood Place outside of the very short evening rush, fares out of PIT are hundreds cheaper on some international routes, adds up big for a family. Both cities and airports would be better off if they worked together. It’s not a zero sum game. F9s superior network out of CLE really opens up possibilities for Pittsburgh travelers for instance, perhaps enabling air travel that would be otherwise unaffordable for many.


Synergies between CLE-CAK make a lot more sense than CLE-PIT. PIT isn't so convenient if you live in the western half of the Cleveland metro. Just like CLE isn't so convenient if you live in the southern half of the Pittsburgh metro.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:19 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
1:45 from Beachwood Place outside of the very short evening rush, fares out of PIT are hundreds cheaper on some international routes, adds up big for a family. Both cities and airports would be better off if they worked together. It’s not a zero sum game. F9s superior network out of CLE really opens up possibilities for Pittsburgh travelers for instance, perhaps enabling air travel that would be otherwise unaffordable for many.


Synergies between CLE-CAK make a lot more sense than CLE-PIT. PIT isn't so convenient if you live in the western half of the Cleveland metro. Just like CLE isn't so convenient if you live in the southern half of the Pittsburgh metro.

There are probably a "few" CC docs who live on the west side. :D
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1181
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:41 pm

Last I checked there's a bigger chunk of population and especially wealth centered around Beachwood Place than around downtown-- hence it's selection-- to say nothing of the fact taht is has a giant underused parking lot. Solon would be a good center of gravity choice too of wealth and population and it's a touch more on the way to Pittsburgh for downtowners or west siders, if there were ever a van servict to PIT. (incidentally according to google maps 2 hours 1 minute from Terminal Tower to Pittsburgh, 2 hours 8 minutes Rocky River, 2 hours 4 minutes Mentor).

Helping to fill up each others marquis flights is nothing but a win. Nonstop flights stimulate new demand. Behaving as a region could make CLE/PIT a lot more formidable to route selection, now we're talking some big population. If CLE gets Dublin, why wouldn't we try and get 20 Pittsburghers a day on that flight.




greenair727 wrote:
^"1:45 from Beachwood Place" Beachwood Place? Since when is that any kind of center for the city? You could probably say "1:35" then from the corner of X and X in Solon. Its at least 30 min from Downtown to Beachwood. I agree that there are a lot of synergies AS CITIES between Cleveland and Pittsburgh---much more than say Cleveland and Columbus. But when it comes to air service, its far more about competition than working together given the seriousness of the matter and how it affects each city's economy.

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