jworks158
Posts: 279
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:02 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:33 pm

jworks158 wrote:
United_fan wrote:
ROCDLFAN wrote:
ROC has got to be one of the most incompetently managed airports in the country. Over the last 24 months BUF and SYR have experienced new airlines, routes, and YOY passenger increased and ROC has been completely stagnant. The funds for incentives are there, but the leadership has been lacking from the top at ROC to make the push needed these days to receive new service for a decade at best. There’s no one and nothing to blame except those at the top.



C'mon,we got that seasonal Saturday WN flight to RSW the media was wetting themselves over. . It's embarassing the routes we miss out on.


Given the RSW route this weekend, WN had 8 departures including 2 MCO services on saturday, up from the typical 5 daily departures


I am also really curious to see how the BOS route with jetBlue does, and how that affects the AA service.
(A359,A343/A346,A332,A319/320/321,A220-100)(B788,B772,B762,B752,B744/B748,B732/B737/B738,B717)(E190,E145)(CRJ100/200, Dash 8-200)(MD-83)
JB,UA(C5,EV,CHQ,AX),AA(EGF,ZW,AX,PT),DL(OH,YX),FL,WN,LH,BA,AF,AZ,IB,VX,CO
https://my.flightradar24.com/theorangetechie
 
WeatherPilot
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:51 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:41 am

delete
 
ROCDLFAN
Posts: 237
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 2:43 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:28 am

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.necn.c ... ml%3famp=y

This.... is weird. The airline is DL (specifically 9E.) every indication has been its coming to ROC, it would be a RON on a CRJ to compete with AA and B6- despite ROC having 4X daily BOS flights now between the 2 carriers, the first flight of the day to BOS isn’t until almost 10am and the last flight to ROC leaves around 5pm- not ideal business times. It’s a weird thing for this to be a “competition” with BTV, which seems out of left field, but should be interesting to see how this plays out in what’s otherwise a slow news week for WNY.
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee."
 
mjgbtv
Posts: 989
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:18 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:24 pm

I'm thinking 'competition' means that DL is looking for the best incentives/risk sharing package since neither route looks like a sure thing?
 
BUFJACK10
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:09 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:38 pm

AA has been slowly reducing BOS PTP flying. I hope if DL decides on ROC AA doesn’t end.
AA AK AL AQ AS B6 CO DL EA FL F9 HP KN NY MO NW PA PE PI RC QX TW UA UR US WN AF AN AO CS IB OA TR VS
A300 A319 A320 BAE146 BAC111 DC8 DC9 DC10 MD80 707 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 787 L10 F27 F28 F100 ERJ CRJ SE-210 SSC B1900 ATR42 ATR72 DH8 E120 SWM
 
RJNUT
Posts: 1756
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 1:58 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:02 am

WeatherPilot wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
SkyWest was just awarded the EAS contracts for the towns of Ogdensburg and Massena.
https://www.wwnytv.com/story/39932859/s ... ogdensburg


Is the runway at Massena even long enough for the CRJ200?


Boutique stays in Massena, SkyWest to Ogdensburg only per below link. Sounds like some potential operational issues at MSS for OO.

https://www.wwnytv.com/story/40024447/s ... of-massena
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 409
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:47 pm

RJNUT wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
SkyWest was just awarded the EAS contracts for the towns of Ogdensburg and Massena.
https://www.wwnytv.com/story/39932859/s ... ogdensburg


Is the runway at Massena even long enough for the CRJ200?


Boutique stays in Massena, SkyWest to Ogdensburg only per below link. Sounds like some potential operational issues at MSS for OO.

https://www.wwnytv.com/story/40024447/s ... of-massena


That’s weird, the SkyWest proposal terms were (I’m paraphrasing) if we don’t serve both communities we won’t serve either of them. The contract on Regulations.gov shows them being selected for both communities. In addition you can currently book United flights out of Massena.
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
WeatherPilot
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:51 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:53 pm

RJNUT wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
SkyWest was just awarded the EAS contracts for the towns of Ogdensburg and Massena.
https://www.wwnytv.com/story/39932859/s ... ogdensburg


Is the runway at Massena even long enough for the CRJ200?


Boutique stays in Massena, SkyWest to Ogdensburg only per below link. Sounds like some potential operational issues at MSS for OO.

https://www.wwnytv.com/story/40024447/s ... of-massena


Not surprised. MSS is only 5,600ft. I was wondering why they were bidding on it in the first place. I guess their business model is to “shoot first and ask questions later”. It looks like a win-win however, the locals in Massena wanted Boutique to stay while Ogdensburg wanted Skywest. Now, between the two airports, the area will have direct service to BOS, BWI, IAD, ORD, PIE and SFB
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 409
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:10 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
RJNUT wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:

Is the runway at Massena even long enough for the CRJ200?


Boutique stays in Massena, SkyWest to Ogdensburg only per below link. Sounds like some potential operational issues at MSS for OO.

https://www.wwnytv.com/story/40024447/s ... of-massena


Not surprised. MSS is only 5,600ft. I was wondering why they were bidding on it in the first place. I guess their business model is to “shoot first and ask questions later”. It looks like a win-win however, the locals in Massena wanted Boutique to stay while Ogdensburg wanted Skywest. Now, between the two airports, the area will have direct service to BOS, BWI, IAD, ORD, PIE and SFB


I still don’t understand why United put MSS into their booking system if they aren’t going to serve it.
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 409
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:16 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
RJNUT wrote:

Boutique stays in Massena, SkyWest to Ogdensburg only per below link. Sounds like some potential operational issues at MSS for OO.

https://www.wwnytv.com/story/40024447/s ... of-massena


Not surprised. MSS is only 5,600ft. I was wondering why they were bidding on it in the first place. I guess their business model is to “shoot first and ask questions later”. It looks like a win-win however, the locals in Massena wanted Boutique to stay while Ogdensburg wanted Skywest. Now, between the two airports, the area will have direct service to BOS, BWI, IAD, ORD, PIE and SFB


I still don’t understand why United put MSS into their booking system if they aren’t going to serve it.



https://www.regulations.gov/contentStre ... ntType=pdf
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
MO11
Posts: 1054
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:07 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:40 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:


What's your point?
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 409
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:49 pm

MO11 wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:


What's your point?


I’m saying that it’s weird that the town of Massena is saying that boutique is staying, while the article/document from the gov’t clearly shows that they’re not staying.
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
RJNUT
Posts: 1756
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 1:58 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:52 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
RJNUT wrote:



I still don’t understand why United put MSS into their booking system if they aren’t going to serve it.



MSS has been in United.com for awhile as they have been selling Boutique /United interline connections thru BOS.

When I look out into May , the ORD/IAD online connections are gone(they are present for OGS however). Boutique has not had time to re-load their schedule going forward out of MSS. That will come online soon.
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 409
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:17 pm

I find it interesting that the OGS-ORD is around $180 one way, but OGS-IAD is at about $589 one way. Why so much more for the Washington flight?
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
kotaKat
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:19 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:40 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
I find it interesting that the OGS-ORD is around $180 one way, but OGS-IAD is at about $589 one way. Why so much more for the Washington flight?


Using July 5th as a random date I'm pricing both OGS-IAD and OGS-ORD for $129 BE, but if I fly out that Saturday it jumps up dramatically.

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
I’m saying that it’s weird that the town of Massena is saying that boutique is staying, while the article/document from the gov’t clearly shows that they’re not staying.


If I'm reading the PDF linked correctly, there is still a valid EAS contract on offer for Boutique to run EAS at MSS until May 31 2021 at the same time as SkyWest. Since SkyWest won't run their contractual offer out of MSS, Boutique will just keep theirs going.
 
MO11
Posts: 1054
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:07 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:08 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
MO11 wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:


What's your point?


I’m saying that it’s weird that the town of Massena is saying that boutique is staying, while the article/document from the gov’t clearly shows that they’re not staying.


Following the award announcement, Skywest found out that it could not operate from Massena. Boutique gets to stay (at the new bid price) until a replacement (in any) is found.
 
jworks158
Posts: 279
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:02 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:40 pm

ROCDLFAN wrote:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.necn.com/news/new-england/Burlington-Airport-to-Compete-With-Rochester-NY-for-Direct-Flights-to-Boston-506205011.html%3famp=y

This.... is weird. The airline is DL (specifically 9E.) every indication has been its coming to ROC, it would be a RON on a CRJ to compete with AA and B6- despite ROC having 4X daily BOS flights now between the 2 carriers, the first flight of the day to BOS isn’t until almost 10am and the last flight to ROC leaves around 5pm- not ideal business times. It’s a weird thing for this to be a “competition” with BTV, which seems out of left field, but should be interesting to see how this plays out in what’s otherwise a slow news week for WNY.


This is most likely in response to B6 starting BOS-ROC service, in boston as you may or may not know, DL is executing the strategy they had in SEA vs AS, in BOS vs B6.
(A359,A343/A346,A332,A319/320/321,A220-100)(B788,B772,B762,B752,B744/B748,B732/B737/B738,B717)(E190,E145)(CRJ100/200, Dash 8-200)(MD-83)
JB,UA(C5,EV,CHQ,AX),AA(EGF,ZW,AX,PT),DL(OH,YX),FL,WN,LH,BA,AF,AZ,IB,VX,CO
https://my.flightradar24.com/theorangetechie
 
tphuang
Posts: 2773
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:04 pm

jworks158 wrote:
ROCDLFAN wrote:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.necn.com/news/new-england/Burlington-Airport-to-Compete-With-Rochester-NY-for-Direct-Flights-to-Boston-506205011.html%3famp=y

This.... is weird. The airline is DL (specifically 9E.) every indication has been its coming to ROC, it would be a RON on a CRJ to compete with AA and B6- despite ROC having 4X daily BOS flights now between the 2 carriers, the first flight of the day to BOS isn’t until almost 10am and the last flight to ROC leaves around 5pm- not ideal business times. It’s a weird thing for this to be a “competition” with BTV, which seems out of left field, but should be interesting to see how this plays out in what’s otherwise a slow news week for WNY.


This is most likely in response to B6 starting BOS-ROC service, in boston as you may or may not know, DL is executing the strategy they had in SEA vs AS, in BOS vs B6.


I would find it very surprising for DL to add BOS-upstate new york routes. They would get killed on that and it will have no strategic relevance. On the other hand, B6 replacing JFK-BTV with BOS-BTV actually makes sense.
 
Roots1
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:38 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:27 pm

tphuang wrote:

I would find it very surprising for DL to add BOS-upstate new york routes. They would get killed on that and it will have no strategic relevance.


DL already flies BOS-BUF.

But in general yes I agree. Three carriers flying BOS-ROC would be overkill for a market that size. If DL adds it I imagine AA would promptly pull out.
 
tphuang
Posts: 2773
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:10 am

Roots1 wrote:
tphuang wrote:

I would find it very surprising for DL to add BOS-upstate new york routes. They would get killed on that and it will have no strategic relevance.


DL already flies BOS-BUF.

But in general yes I agree. Three carriers flying BOS-ROC would be overkill for a market that size. If DL adds it I imagine AA would promptly pull out.

BOS-BUF might be the worst performing route in their entire network. I'm not sure how much longer that route lasts.
 
aeroc
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 9:05 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:40 am

tphuang wrote:


BOS-BUF might be the worst performing route in their entire network. I'm not sure how much longer that route lasts.


That's gotta be why they only have 4 flights on the route.... ;)
 
tphuang
Posts: 2773
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:45 am

aeroc wrote:
tphuang wrote:


BOS-BUF might be the worst performing route in their entire network. I'm not sure how much longer that route lasts.


That's gotta be why they only have 4 flights on the route.... ;)


WN has 11 or 12 flights a day on LAX-SFO, yet that's their biggest money loosing route. B6 has 5 flights a day on BOS-ATL, yet that's their biggest money loosing route. I don't see why the number of daily flights has anything to do with it. But of course, all the fare data and lf I get off BTS is garbage.
 
jworks158
Posts: 279
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:02 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:00 pm

tphuang wrote:
Roots1 wrote:
tphuang wrote:

I would find it very surprising for DL to add BOS-upstate new york routes. They would get killed on that and it will have no strategic relevance.


DL already flies BOS-BUF.

But in general yes I agree. Three carriers flying BOS-ROC would be overkill for a market that size. If DL adds it I imagine AA would promptly pull out.

BOS-BUF might be the worst performing route in their entire network. I'm not sure how much longer that route lasts.


Remember the BUF-BOS route used to be AA&B6, but as soon as AA dropped out DL entered, this was about 1.5 years ago. Remember DL is willing to lose some money in BOS if it helps the generate more of a customer base.
(A359,A343/A346,A332,A319/320/321,A220-100)(B788,B772,B762,B752,B744/B748,B732/B737/B738,B717)(E190,E145)(CRJ100/200, Dash 8-200)(MD-83)
JB,UA(C5,EV,CHQ,AX),AA(EGF,ZW,AX,PT),DL(OH,YX),FL,WN,LH,BA,AF,AZ,IB,VX,CO
https://my.flightradar24.com/theorangetechie
 
maximairways
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:05 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:19 pm

jworks158 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Roots1 wrote:

DL already flies BOS-BUF.

But in general yes I agree. Three carriers flying BOS-ROC would be overkill for a market that size. If DL adds it I imagine AA would promptly pull out.

BOS-BUF might be the worst performing route in their entire network. I'm not sure how much longer that route lasts.


Remember the BUF-BOS route used to be AA&B6, but as soon as AA dropped out DL entered, this was about 1.5 years ago. Remember DL is willing to lose some money in BOS if it helps the generate more of a customer base.


I don't understand if this route is so bad, why did they upgauge to E175s and CRJ-900s, from CRJ-700s?
 
jworks158
Posts: 279
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:02 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:20 pm

This filing just came across my twitter feed titled "EAS at Massena and Ogdensburg, NY - Service Update of SkyWest (Withdrawal of Service to Massena):" Recently this website has started to require a username and password to access the documents, which I don't have. https://twitter.com/airlinefilings/stat ... 7610954752
(A359,A343/A346,A332,A319/320/321,A220-100)(B788,B772,B762,B752,B744/B748,B732/B737/B738,B717)(E190,E145)(CRJ100/200, Dash 8-200)(MD-83)
JB,UA(C5,EV,CHQ,AX),AA(EGF,ZW,AX,PT),DL(OH,YX),FL,WN,LH,BA,AF,AZ,IB,VX,CO
https://my.flightradar24.com/theorangetechie
 
kotaKat
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:19 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:19 pm

jworks158 wrote:
This filing just came across my twitter feed titled "EAS at Massena and Ogdensburg, NY - Service Update of SkyWest (Withdrawal of Service to Massena):" Recently this website has started to require a username and password to access the documents, which I don't have. https://twitter.com/airlinefilings/stat ... 7610954752


You can pull up the filing on Regulations.gov -- it's docket DOT-OST-2012-0163. Basically just Skywest's letter saying that they are unable to provide air service as scheduled to MSS as scheduled but are affirming they will continue to provide OGS with service starting 5/3. And as per the EAS agreement, since Skywest can't provide service as scheduled, Boutique just picks up where they left off.
 
ROCDLFAN
Posts: 237
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 2:43 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:38 am

maximairways wrote:
jworks158 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
BOS-BUF might be the worst performing route in their entire network. I'm not sure how much longer that route lasts.


Remember the BUF-BOS route used to be AA&B6, but as soon as AA dropped out DL entered, this was about 1.5 years ago. Remember DL is willing to lose some money in BOS if it helps the generate more of a customer base.


I don't understand if this route is so bad, why did they upgauge to E175s and CRJ-900s, from CRJ-700s?



It was never a CR7, it was the CR2- from what I understood BUF was the only route out of BOS that flew the CR2 and they simply wanted a 2 class cabin on the route for a competitive factor. Stats don’t lie, this is quite possibly top 5 of Delta’s worst performing routes. If they’d simply cut the frequency to only a 1pm and a 5pm departure (those are the only two flights that ever seem to leave with more than 20 people on them, I think the route would be significantly more profitable. But, like it’s already been stated, they don’t appear to be in this route for the $$.

ROC has 3X AA and 1X B6 with no early morning departure and late night arrival. I’m sure if DL started with the 1X daily time in the morning the route would make a profit, worst I could see AA doing is axing the 9:45am which already directly competes with B6. If that did happen it would be (example)

0630 CR9 DL
0945 E90 B6
1430 ER4 AA
1745 ER4 AA

That’s only 276 seats per day. A capacity jump, yes- but not an ungodly amount of overflow.
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee."
 
Buffalomatt1027
Posts: 359
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:02 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:27 am

ROCDLFAN wrote:
maximairways wrote:
jworks158 wrote:

Remember the BUF-BOS route used to be AA&B6, but as soon as AA dropped out DL entered, this was about 1.5 years ago. Remember DL is willing to lose some money in BOS if it helps the generate more of a customer base.


I don't understand if this route is so bad, why did they upgauge to E175s and CRJ-900s, from CRJ-700s?



It was never a CR7, it was the CR2- from what I understood BUF was the only route out of BOS that flew the CR2 and they simply wanted a 2 class cabin on the route for a competitive factor. Stats don’t lie, this is quite possibly top 5 of Delta’s worst performing routes. If they’d simply cut the frequency to only a 1pm and a 5pm departure (those are the only two flights that ever seem to leave with more than 20 people on them, I think the route would be significantly more profitable. But, like it’s already been stated, they don’t appear to be in this route for the $$.

ROC has 3X AA and 1X B6 with no early morning departure and late night arrival. I’m sure if DL started with the 1X daily time in the morning the route would make a profit, worst I could see AA doing is axing the 9:45am which already directly competes with B6. If that did happen it would be (example)

0630 CR9 DL
0945 E90 B6
1430 ER4 AA
1745 ER4 AA

That’s only 276 seats per day. A capacity jump, yes- but not an ungodly amount of overflow.


The BUF - BOS is just doing okay.

October 2018- b6 71% filled Republic airlines (Delta ) 64% filled
September 2018 - B6 73% Republic airlines (delta) 67% filled
August 2018 - 85%


So overall, okay results.
 
tphuang
Posts: 2773
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:45 am

No, they are not doing okay.

DL upgraded to 70 seater because they wanted to have first class seating on all the regional jets out of BOS to differentiate themselves from B6.

BOS-BUF is definitely a below average (I think money loosing) route for B6. And the numbers are far worse for DL.

CityPair Dist Carrier Board AvgFare NSFare ConnFare % NS SeatPerFlight LF Yield PRASM Vs B6
BOSBUF 0395 B6 069356 145.59 145.53 167.92 99.73% 101.1 80.74% 117.51 0.2975 100.00%
BOSBUF 0395 DL 021746 124.28 121.29 233.14 97.32% 070.1 75.87% 92.01 0.2329 78.31%

So B6 operating E90s mostly is getting average fare of $146 with 81% LF in Q3. DL operating 70 seat regional aircraft is getting average fare of $121 with 76% LF in Q3. And Q3 is normally the best quarter for this route. I've looked at a lot of DL routes out of new focus cities and this is the worst performing of them all. That should tell you something. I can tell you 100% that AA was doing a lot better (than DL now) on both BOS-BUF and BOS-PIT prior to them existing the market. So I don't buy this idea DL will enter SYR and ROC as soon as AA exiting. It makes no sense to me. Outside of depressing B6 yields, what other purpose would there be for DL? I don't see how DL can keep this BUF route going for another year.
 
WeatherPilot
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:51 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:01 pm

tphuang wrote:
No, they are not doing okay.

DL upgraded to 70 seater because they wanted to have first class seating on all the regional jets out of BOS to differentiate themselves from B6.

BOS-BUF is definitely a below average (I think money loosing) route for B6. And the numbers are far worse for DL.

CityPair Dist Carrier Board AvgFare NSFare ConnFare % NS SeatPerFlight LF Yield PRASM Vs B6
BOSBUF 0395 B6 069356 145.59 145.53 167.92 99.73% 101.1 80.74% 117.51 0.2975 100.00%
BOSBUF 0395 DL 021746 124.28 121.29 233.14 97.32% 070.1 75.87% 92.01 0.2329 78.31%

So B6 operating E90s mostly is getting average fare of $146 with 81% LF in Q3. DL operating 70 seat regional aircraft is getting average fare of $121 with 76% LF in Q3. And Q3 is normally the best quarter for this route. I've looked at a lot of DL routes out of new focus cities and this is the worst performing of them all. That should tell you something. I can tell you 100% that AA was doing a lot better (than DL now) on both BOS-BUF and BOS-PIT prior to them existing the market. So I don't buy this idea DL will enter SYR and ROC as soon as AA exiting. It makes no sense to me. Outside of depressing B6 yields, what other purpose would there be for DL? I don't see how DL can keep this BUF route going for another year.


Do you have the load numbers for SYR-BOS for both AA and B6? I’m curious if B6 would add another daily to force AA’s hand to drop their daily. Then B6 could setup a mid-day for better connections than a red-eye into SYR.
 
tphuang
Posts: 2773
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:21 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
tphuang wrote:
No, they are not doing okay.

DL upgraded to 70 seater because they wanted to have first class seating on all the regional jets out of BOS to differentiate themselves from B6.

BOS-BUF is definitely a below average (I think money loosing) route for B6. And the numbers are far worse for DL.

CityPair Dist Carrier Board AvgFare NSFare ConnFare % NS SeatPerFlight LF Yield PRASM Vs B6
BOSBUF 0395 B6 069356 145.59 145.53 167.92 99.73% 101.1 80.74% 117.51 0.2975 100.00%
BOSBUF 0395 DL 021746 124.28 121.29 233.14 97.32% 070.1 75.87% 92.01 0.2329 78.31%

So B6 operating E90s mostly is getting average fare of $146 with 81% LF in Q3. DL operating 70 seat regional aircraft is getting average fare of $121 with 76% LF in Q3. And Q3 is normally the best quarter for this route. I've looked at a lot of DL routes out of new focus cities and this is the worst performing of them all. That should tell you something. I can tell you 100% that AA was doing a lot better (than DL now) on both BOS-BUF and BOS-PIT prior to them existing the market. So I don't buy this idea DL will enter SYR and ROC as soon as AA exiting. It makes no sense to me. Outside of depressing B6 yields, what other purpose would there be for DL? I don't see how DL can keep this BUF route going for another year.


Do you have the load numbers for SYR-BOS for both AA and B6? I’m curious if B6 would add another daily to force AA’s hand to drop their daily. Then B6 could setup a mid-day for better connections than a red-eye into SYR.


Yes, again this is the Q3 data.
CityPair Dist CarrierBoard AvgFare NSFare ConnFare% NS PerFlight # Flights LF Yield
BOSSYR 265 B6 13637 111.5 107.92 195.58 95.91% 100 183 74.52% 80.42
BOSSYR 265 MQ 5221 128.8 128.82 122.24 99.76% 44 138 85.98% 110.77

By the way, both airlines are loosing a lot of money on this route too. Notice how even though they both have one flight a day, B6 actually carries 2.5 times the number of passengers as AA regional here? That's how much extra capacity was added when B6 entered here.
 
WeatherPilot
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:51 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:50 pm

tphuang wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
tphuang wrote:
No, they are not doing okay.

DL upgraded to 70 seater because they wanted to have first class seating on all the regional jets out of BOS to differentiate themselves from B6.

BOS-BUF is definitely a below average (I think money loosing) route for B6. And the numbers are far worse for DL.

CityPair Dist Carrier Board AvgFare NSFare ConnFare % NS SeatPerFlight LF Yield PRASM Vs B6
BOSBUF 0395 B6 069356 145.59 145.53 167.92 99.73% 101.1 80.74% 117.51 0.2975 100.00%
BOSBUF 0395 DL 021746 124.28 121.29 233.14 97.32% 070.1 75.87% 92.01 0.2329 78.31%

So B6 operating E90s mostly is getting average fare of $146 with 81% LF in Q3. DL operating 70 seat regional aircraft is getting average fare of $121 with 76% LF in Q3. And Q3 is normally the best quarter for this route. I've looked at a lot of DL routes out of new focus cities and this is the worst performing of them all. That should tell you something. I can tell you 100% that AA was doing a lot better (than DL now) on both BOS-BUF and BOS-PIT prior to them existing the market. So I don't buy this idea DL will enter SYR and ROC as soon as AA exiting. It makes no sense to me. Outside of depressing B6 yields, what other purpose would there be for DL? I don't see how DL can keep this BUF route going for another year.


Do you have the load numbers for SYR-BOS for both AA and B6? I’m curious if B6 would add another daily to force AA’s hand to drop their daily. Then B6 could setup a mid-day for better connections than a red-eye into SYR.


Yes, again this is the Q3 data.
CityPair Dist CarrierBoard AvgFare NSFare ConnFare% NS PerFlight # Flights LF Yield
BOSSYR 265 B6 13637 111.5 107.92 195.58 95.91% 100 183 74.52% 80.42
BOSSYR 265 MQ 5221 128.8 128.82 122.24 99.76% 44 138 85.98% 110.77

By the way, both airlines are loosing a lot of money on this route too. Notice how even though they both have one flight a day, B6 actually carries 2.5 times the number of passengers as AA regional here? That's how much extra capacity was added when B6 entered here.


Thank you. I’d think B6 would be able to improve its numbers on the route if they would just pick a better time to run it.
 
ROCDLFAN
Posts: 237
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 2:43 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:53 pm

Eager to see the first data points from B6 starting ROC. I’ve heard good things so far about the route but a lot of bleed from AA I’m sure. The departure time of 9:45am directly competes with AA’s 9:50am departure.
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee."
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 4167
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:10 pm

Strange that nobody is running say a 6:30 am departure on ROC-BOS. That would no doubt suit business customers much better than two flights between 9 and 10. 6:30, lunchtime, dinnertime or early eve for a three-flight schedule; 6:30 and dinner/ early eve for a two-flight schedule. Very standard business times. Whoever schedules those times will have an advantage.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
captDL757
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:25 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:37 pm

Not sure if its been mentioned in last year's thread, but DL has added a 738 on the ~945p #1111 ATL-ROC, 6am #2129 ROC-ATL for much of June/July schedule, IMO a much welcome change from the MD88/90 #IFE
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 409
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:51 pm

captDL757 wrote:
Not sure if its been mentioned in last year's thread, but DL has added a 738 on the ~945p #1111 ATL-ROC, 6am #2129 ROC-ATL for much of June/July schedule, IMO a much welcome change from the MD88/90 #IFE


Are they doing the same thing for BUF/ALB/SYR ?
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
ROCDLFAN
Posts: 237
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 2:43 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:30 am

captDL757 wrote:
Not sure if its been mentioned in last year's thread, but DL has added a 738 on the ~945p #1111 ATL-ROC, 6am #2129 ROC-ATL for much of June/July schedule, IMO a much welcome change from the MD88/90 #IFE


The schedule is not finalized for the rest of the days but the 6am departure will fluctuate between a 738 and 739 this summer. As of now all other upstate cities will remain with their existing schedules
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee."
 
WeatherPilot
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:51 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:38 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
captDL757 wrote:
Not sure if its been mentioned in last year's thread, but DL has added a 738 on the ~945p #1111 ATL-ROC, 6am #2129 ROC-ATL for much of June/July schedule, IMO a much welcome change from the MD88/90 #IFE


Are they doing the same thing for BUF/ALB/SYR ?


SYR-ATL stays MD-88/90 until the end of the year where they start throwing in a 717-200 here and there before switching completely to the A320 in January.
 
Roots1
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:38 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:55 pm

captDL757 wrote:
Not sure if its been mentioned in last year's thread, but DL has added a 738 on the ~945p #1111 ATL-ROC, 6am #2129 ROC-ATL for much of June/July schedule, IMO a much welcome change from the MD88/90 #IFE


Yes but the other two frequencies are downgauged to 717's from the current MD-88/MD-90's.
 
krolt767
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:10 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:23 pm

Roots1 wrote:
captDL757 wrote:
Not sure if its been mentioned in last year's thread, but DL has added a 738 on the ~945p #1111 ATL-ROC, 6am #2129 ROC-ATL for much of June/July schedule, IMO a much welcome change from the MD88/90 #IFE


Yes but the other two frequencies are downgauged to 717's from the current MD-88/MD-90's.


Going to miss those Mad Dogs, had a lot of happy flights to ROC on them and a lot of sad ones back to ATL, end of an era
 
ROCDLFAN
Posts: 237
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 2:43 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:20 am

Roots1 wrote:
captDL757 wrote:
Not sure if its been mentioned in last year's thread, but DL has added a 738 on the ~945p #1111 ATL-ROC, 6am #2129 ROC-ATL for much of June/July schedule, IMO a much welcome change from the MD88/90 #IFE


Yes but the other two frequencies are downgauged to 717's from the current MD-88/MD-90's.


Only temporary if it even sticks while fleet reshuffling occurs thanks to DL expediting 88/90 retirement. Same will happen with BUF/SYR/ROC/ALB just later this year (as of now.)

As of now DL’s schedule is going to be very early-loaded for the month of June

B717 on DTW (110 seats)
B738 on ATL (160 seats)
A319 on MSP (132 seats)
CR9 for JFK (76 seats)
E75 for LGA (76 seats)

554 seats between 0530 and 0630 with 1,323 total for the rest of the day (as of now.)

Current seats per day for DL across the 4 airports for the month of June (heavily subject to change as aircraft and schedules for DL aren’t generally set until late April for the beginning of summer)

BUF: 2,294 (24 flights per day, 8 DL 16 DC avg 95.5 seats per flight)
ROC: 1,323 (15 flights per day, 5 DL 10 DC avg 88.2 seats per flight)
SYR: 1,273 (14 flights per day, 4 DL 10 DC avg. 90.9 seats per flight)
ALB: 1,015 (9 flights per day, 5 DL 4 DC avg 112.7 seats per flight)
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee."
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 409
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:21 pm

With SkyWest being awarded OGS and Boutique being awarded MSS, I just realized it but this means that Albany will be loosing nonstop service to Boston.
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
WeatherPilot
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:51 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:04 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
With SkyWest being awarded OGS and Boutique being awarded MSS, I just realized it but this means that Albany will be loosing nonstop service to Boston.


I'm thinking AA may pick up ALB-BOS if they're forced out of ROC or SYR.
 
MO11
Posts: 1054
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:07 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:57 pm

ROCDLFAN wrote:

As of now DL’s schedule is going to be very early-loaded for the month of June




What does this mean? The May schedule isn't loaded yet.
 
WeatherPilot
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:51 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:01 am

Check this out. G4 #9204 from SFB-SYR got all the way to the DC area and then just decided to do a u-turn and go back to SFB. WTH?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAY9204
 
mjgbtv
Posts: 989
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:18 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:13 am

WeatherPilot wrote:
Check this out. G4 #9204 from SFB-SYR got all the way to the DC area and then just decided to do a u-turn and go back to SFB. WTH?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAY9204


That doesn't look like a regular flight. 9204 seems to be one-off routes. Maybe it was a re-positioning flight and something changed and they needed the aircraft back in SFB instead.
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 409
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:10 am

WeatherPilot wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
With SkyWest being awarded OGS and Boutique being awarded MSS, I just realized it but this means that Albany will be loosing nonstop service to Boston.


I'm thinking AA may pick up ALB-BOS if they're forced out of ROC or SYR.


I highly doubt it. They’d be competing with the interstate, and anybody taking AA to BOS wouldn’t be connecting as they’re options out of BOS are very limited other that their hubs.
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
User avatar
cosyr
Posts: 1309
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:23 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:36 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
With SkyWest being awarded OGS and Boutique being awarded MSS, I just realized it but this means that Albany will be loosing nonstop service to Boston.


I'm thinking AA may pick up ALB-BOS if they're forced out of ROC or SYR.


I highly doubt it. They’d be competing with the interstate, and anybody taking AA to BOS wouldn’t be connecting as they’re options out of BOS are very limited other that their hubs.

And AA could just code share with Cape Air if they want it on their map for connections.
 
jworks158
Posts: 279
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:02 pm

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:49 pm

So yesterday ROC, finally opened up the last part of the renovation, the "Flight Deck Diner" and "On the ROCS Sports Bar & Grill".
https://www2.monroecounty.gov/files/air ... 0Menus.pdf
https://twitter.com/ROCAirport/status/1 ... 2500652034

I will be traveling on the new JetBlue ROC-BOS service in the next few days and will be sure to grab pictures!
(A359,A343/A346,A332,A319/320/321,A220-100)(B788,B772,B762,B752,B744/B748,B732/B737/B738,B717)(E190,E145)(CRJ100/200, Dash 8-200)(MD-83)
JB,UA(C5,EV,CHQ,AX),AA(EGF,ZW,AX,PT),DL(OH,YX),FL,WN,LH,BA,AF,AZ,IB,VX,CO
https://my.flightradar24.com/theorangetechie
 
ROCDLFAN
Posts: 237
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 2:43 am

Re: Upstate New York Thread - 2019

Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:09 pm

Flew out on jetBlue’s BOS flight this morning, completely full with the first round of spring breakers. Had a chance to talk to one of the gate agents this morning and despite the rise in fares from the intro rate of $39 the flight has been performing extremely well.

The Diner and Bar are two of the latest examples of Monroe County bleeding money. Watching that project be stagnant for an entire month every single day was boarderline comical- then it seems like over night they were done. The diner does look absolutely fantastic- and a full service breakfast option at the airport is extremely welcome. The bar, however, looks pretty horrible. The floor section doesnt come off looking finished, the entire area is open with not a lot of clarity as to what exactly it is (as far as the restaurant area of it.) The bar itself though I must say is beautiful, but it is lacking still the “sports” aspect other than a few hung jerseys.

The highlight of the entire remodel is definitely the video game area. From 4am until 8pm every single day that area is packed, it almost would have made more sense for it to be larger and in the center of the concourse rather than sectioned off in the B gates.
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee."

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