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dcaproducer
Posts: 300
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:40 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Went thru the new Southwest Schedule for April.

YoY Changes

+2
Sun DAL/RSW/TPA

+1
Mon-Fri BOS/CLE/DEN/DTW/BNA/LGA/PIT/SLC/TPA
Sat CHS/MKE/MCO/TPA/ECP
Sun ATL/BOS/HOU/MSY/LGA/MCO/SLC/SAT

-1
Mon-Fri CMH
Sat MSP
Sun CLE/SAN

Also EWR 2 daily is gone.

Mon-Fri 125 +6
Saturday 89 +2
Sunday 135 +10

Total flights 849 +42 (5.2%) - This gain is off the Pre Max grounding schedule for April 2019 so the actual percentage will probably be higher.

135 on Sundays will be the most ever scheduled on a day by Southwest
849 a week will be the most ever a week by Southwest just beating out the March 2020 schedule.

Last tab (only WN update)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing


So this begs the question, once the MAX is flying, how quickly does WN need more D gates.
Also, has there been any progress on the potential expansion of the T2 baggage claim?
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3451
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:09 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Went thru the new Southwest Schedule for April.

YoY Changes

+2
Sun DAL/RSW/TPA

+1
Mon-Fri BOS/CLE/DEN/DTW/BNA/LGA/PIT/SLC/TPA
Sat CHS/MKE/MCO/TPA/ECP
Sun ATL/BOS/HOU/MSY/LGA/MCO/SLC/SAT

-1
Mon-Fri CMH
Sat MSP
Sun CLE/SAN

Also EWR 2 daily is gone.

Mon-Fri 125 +6
Saturday 89 +2
Sunday 135 +10

Total flights 849 +42 (5.2%) - This gain is off the Pre Max grounding schedule for April 2019 so the actual percentage will probably be higher.

135 on Sundays will be the most ever scheduled on a day by Southwest
849 a week will be the most ever a week by Southwest just beating out the March 2020 schedule.

Last tab (only WN update)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing


So this begs the question, once the MAX is flying, how quickly does WN need more D gates.
Also, has there been any progress on the potential expansion of the T2 baggage claim?


Baggage claim is in the final design phase.

I’m guessing gates will be open by March (but that’s just me looking at the jump in flights starting in March).
 
bretonrlong
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:52 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:31 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Went thru the new Southwest Schedule for April.

YoY Changes

+2
Sun DAL/RSW/TPA

+1
Mon-Fri BOS/CLE/DEN/DTW/BNA/LGA/PIT/SLC/TPA
Sat CHS/MKE/MCO/TPA/ECP
Sun ATL/BOS/HOU/MSY/LGA/MCO/SLC/SAT

-1
Mon-Fri CMH
Sat MSP
Sun CLE/SAN

Also EWR 2 daily is gone.

Mon-Fri 125 +6
Saturday 89 +2
Sunday 135 +10

Total flights 849 +42 (5.2%) - This gain is off the Pre Max grounding schedule for April 2019 so the actual percentage will probably be higher.

135 on Sundays will be the most ever scheduled on a day by Southwest
849 a week will be the most ever a week by Southwest just beating out the March 2020 schedule.

Last tab (only WN update)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing


So this begs the question, once the MAX is flying, how quickly does WN need more D gates.
Also, has there been any progress on the potential expansion of the T2 baggage claim?


Baggage claim is in the final design phase.

I’m guessing gates will be open by March (but that’s just me looking at the jump in flights starting in March).


How many additional gates in D will be opened next?
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3451
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:47 pm

bretonrlong wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:

So this begs the question, once the MAX is flying, how quickly does WN need more D gates.
Also, has there been any progress on the potential expansion of the T2 baggage claim?


Baggage claim is in the final design phase.

I’m guessing gates will be open by March (but that’s just me looking at the jump in flights starting in March).


How many additional gates in D will be opened next?


I’ve heard either 2 or 3. With the 4th opening at some later date.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3451
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:51 am

Always good when someone on the privatization committee is putting out a hit piece on the airport. Good on Rhonda for standing up to it. This guy should be kicked out of the committee. He obviously isn't approaching it as a neutral party.

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... 7e2e9.html
 
Trololzilla
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:53 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:45 am

September numbers are out:

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... PubRel.pdf

2.3% increase in total YTD passengers - 11,939,157 (vs 11,666,148)
3.1% increase in YTD cargo tonnage - 56,628 tons (vs 54,949 tons)
All aircraft operations holding steady at 0.0% change YTD (145,102 vs 145,106 at this time last year). Good to see this catching back up again after being hit by the EAS and MAX service cuts.
 
jplatts
Posts: 3539
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:37 am

Jshank83 wrote:
bretonrlong wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:

Baggage claim is in the final design phase.

I’m guessing gates will be open by March (but that’s just me looking at the jump in flights starting in March).


How many additional gates in D will be opened next?


I’ve heard either 2 or 3. With the 4th opening at some later date.


WN currently operates out of 17 gates at STL, and WN can probably expand STL to at least 200 daily departures from 125 daily departures with the opening of 3 additional gates at STL as WN already operates more flights per day per gate at other airports such as AUS, BUR, DAL, LAX, and SEA.
 
Lexy
Posts: 1492
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:05 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:35 pm

atrude777 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
^part of me is still surprised there wasn't more pushback at CGI because Air Choice One was so much cheaper. Sounds like being a single engine plane is what hurt them. Curious if Cape Air had bid if it would have been different.

I still am really curious to see what the they do with Decatur since Cape did bid it and last time they didn't let them have their skywest pick.


Keep in mind, the cheapest option didn't have to be selected.

SkyWest's Bid while not the cheapest was WELL below the capacity, and on a per passenger basis, SkyWest was the cheapest at per passenger rate for the subsidary.

I knew from the beginning that SkyWest would be selected for CGI because, it is still within the cost of the subsidiary, it offers connections, and it's jet service, and a reliable service (I know one can argue reliability).

We in Marion are extremely disappointed in the selection of Cape Air to BNA, we would have preferred Chicago or all flights to STL.

If you check DOT, a few letters of recommendations are all backing the SkyWest service to ORD on United out of DEC.

Alex


Alex, with all due respect, there isn’t demand from Marion to STL either. Let’s be real. It’s to reposition aircraft for maintenance in Nashville.
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
atrude777
Posts: 4382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:41 pm

Lexy wrote:
Alex, with all due respect, there isn’t demand from Marion to STL either. Let’s be real. It’s to reposition aircraft for maintenance in Nashville.


Of course there isn't any demand to STL from MWA, that's why there's EAS! Hahaha

There is more demand though to STL then Nashville, DOT proves it. We see 20K passengers a year flying MWA-STL on Cape Air, and a larger amount of it is connecting onward to Chicago, which is why the region wanted direct MWA-ORD.

I don't understand Lexy what you mean by reposition arcft for MX in BNA? Cape Air does not serve BNA right now..nor do they have a MX facility for their current Cessna's, the MX for Cape Air is done in STL for the Midwest EAS service or up in their HDQ in the Northeast.

Are you referring to the new Tecnam's Cape Air is getting? If true on MX, why isn't Cape Air directing ALL EAS flights in the Midwest to BNA instead of STL?

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
Lexy
Posts: 1492
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:05 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:25 am

My mistake. I thought we were talking about SkyWest.
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
pmanni1
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:17 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:58 pm

Trololzilla wrote:
September numbers are out:

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... PubRel.pdf

2.3% increase in total YTD passengers - 11,939,157 (vs 11,666,148)
3.1% increase in YTD cargo tonnage - 56,628 tons (vs 54,949 tons)
All aircraft operations holding steady at 0.0% change YTD (145,102 vs 145,106 at this time last year). Good to see this catching back up again after being hit by the EAS and MAX service cuts.

What are the chances STL hits 17 million passengers by the end of the year? I'm thinking it will end just shy of it.
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 300
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:52 pm

pmanni1 wrote:
Trololzilla wrote:
September numbers are out:

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... PubRel.pdf

2.3% increase in total YTD passengers - 11,939,157 (vs 11,666,148)
3.1% increase in YTD cargo tonnage - 56,628 tons (vs 54,949 tons)
All aircraft operations holding steady at 0.0% change YTD (145,102 vs 145,106 at this time last year). Good to see this catching back up again after being hit by the EAS and MAX service cuts.

What are the chances STL hits 17 million passengers by the end of the year? I'm thinking it will end just shy of it.


None. They’re on pace to top 16 Million, not 17.
If the MAX issues hadn’t hit WN so bad it would have been a better year. I think 17 Million is a year or two away.
Oddly, if you factor in BLV, the number looks a little better.
 
QXorVX
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:45 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:10 pm

atrude777 wrote:
Lexy wrote:
Alex, with all due respect, there isn’t demand from Marion to STL either. Let’s be real. It’s to reposition aircraft for maintenance in Nashville.


Of course there isn't any demand to STL from MWA, that's why there's EAS! Hahaha

There is more demand though to STL then Nashville, DOT proves it. We see 20K passengers a year flying MWA-STL on Cape Air, and a larger amount of it is connecting onward to Chicago, which is why the region wanted direct MWA-ORD.

I don't understand Lexy what you mean by reposition arcft for MX in BNA? Cape Air does not serve BNA right now..nor do they have a MX facility for their current Cessna's, the MX for Cape Air is done in STL for the Midwest EAS service or up in their HDQ in the Northeast.

Are you referring to the new Tecnam's Cape Air is getting? If true on MX, why isn't Cape Air directing ALL EAS flights in the Midwest to BNA instead of STL?

Alex


DOT passenger numbers are for sure going to favor STL-MWA since that has been the only route operated. Hard to have MWA-BNA pax numbers when that hasn't been a flight in the past, plus as you have mentioned before why not just drive instead of fly therefore connecting pax would pretty much be nonexistent. I don't think they are operating to BNA to be the final destination, but to offer connection opportunities. BNA has more non-stop destinations than STL and a much larger presence of ULCC operators adding even greater options for self connecting pax. BNA has been in a growth spurt lately while STL is just kind chugging along. The future could be bright here.

Give this route a chance. Just because a few people in and around Marion don't want to be IN Nashville does not yet prove this market will not work (as much as an EAS market works) for people connecting through BNA.

I'll agree ORD would have seemed like a winner, but at 3x the length of a STL flight along with the costs and complexities of operating at ORD must not have looked good. After all, if you are Cape Air you want a lot of seats in and out of these EAS cities, so tying up one plane for such a long time on one round trip would start to cut into that model.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:14 pm

QXorVX wrote:
DOT passenger numbers are for sure going to favor STL-MWA since that has been the only route operated.

Hard to have MWA-BNA pax numbers when that hasn't been a flight in the past, plus as you have mentioned before why not just drive instead of fly therefore connecting pax would pretty much be nonexistent.


Well, that's fair to say, Hahaha. Hard to argue that when that is the only information we have regarding DOT.


QXorVX wrote:
I don't think they are operating to BNA to be the final destination, but to offer connection opportunities. BNA has more non-stop destinations than STL and a much larger presence of ULCC operators adding even greater options for self connecting pax. BNA has been in a growth spurt lately while STL is just kind chugging along. The future could be bright here.

Give this route a chance. Just because a few people in and around Marion don't want to be IN Nashville does not yet prove this market will not work (as much as an EAS market works) for people connecting through BNA.


No, it was mentioned from the beginning BNA was intended to be another connecting option for MWA for connecting opportunities. Locally, that's why they were trying to get the community to vote Cape Air to STL and BNA. So if weather goes bad in STL, they can be re routed to BNA, but this will ONLY work when you have a connecting itinerary on the same ticket.

What happens (rhetorical I am not expecting you to actually answer it), when MWA-STL cancels due to MX. Passenger has a flight out of STL on Southwest. Cape Air, if they honor the ticket would be changing the destination from STL to BNA, but would Southwest honor a STL-XXX ticket and switch it BNA-XXX because Cape Air rebooked them?

You mentioned the ULCC in BNA compared to STL, that's true, but Cape Air does not interline with them. So I am struggling to understand the benefit of paying $70 dollars each way MWA-BNA, buy another ticket on an ULCC out of BNA, and connect onward, when the same $70 (SkyWest and Cape Air both publicly stated $70 dollars MWA-ORD or MWA-BNA) can fly you to Chicago, a large city in its own right, plus everything BNA offers and more.

It's a lot of open ended questions, and I will be very curious to see how MWA-BNA-XXX will function with only two flights a day.

QXorVX wrote:
I'll agree ORD would have seemed like a winner, but at 3x the length of a STL flight along with the costs and complexities of operating at ORD must not have looked good. After all, if you are Cape Air you want a lot of seats in and out of these EAS cities, so tying up one plane for such a long time on one round trip would start to cut into that model.


Cape Air was never going to offer MWA-ORD, it was only MWA-STL (6 Daily), or MWA-STL/BNA. (4 and 2 Daily respectively)

SkyWest was the one offering MWA-ORD-XXX under the United Brand with 2 Daily Flights.

Mind you all, and I want to make sure no one is confused, I am not arguing why BNA was chosen along with STL, I am trying to understand, using the arguments for BNA...more ULCC, more non stops, more destinations...ORD clearly was the winner over BNA using those arguments. It boggled my mind that MWA selected STL/BNA instead of ORD. Cest La Vie...I am from Carbondale and used Cape Air MWA-STL all the time, as I live in Chicago. However, diminishing the frequencies to STL, will make it harder for me to travel ORD-STL-MWA, verses ORD-BNA-MWA. I just fly ORD-CGI on UA/OO now, it's 45 min from my hometown versus MWA being 10-15min.

Lexy wrote:
My mistake. I thought we were talking about SkyWest.

Oh! I got you! Yes, SkyWest has a MX Hub in BNA, but Cape Air is the one that bid to fly MWA-BNA and MWA-STL, SkyWest only bid to fly MWA-ORD under the United brand, just questioning why the local folks chose BNA over ORD when ORD offers more then STL and BNA combined!

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14427
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:24 pm

atrude777 wrote:
QXorVX wrote:
DOT passenger numbers are for sure going to favor STL-MWA since that has been the only route operated.

Hard to have MWA-BNA pax numbers when that hasn't been a flight in the past, plus as you have mentioned before why not just drive instead of fly therefore connecting pax would pretty much be nonexistent.


Well, that's fair to say, Hahaha. Hard to argue that when that is the only information we have regarding DOT.


QXorVX wrote:
I don't think they are operating to BNA to be the final destination, but to offer connection opportunities. BNA has more non-stop destinations than STL and a much larger presence of ULCC operators adding even greater options for self connecting pax. BNA has been in a growth spurt lately while STL is just kind chugging along. The future could be bright here.

Give this route a chance. Just because a few people in and around Marion don't want to be IN Nashville does not yet prove this market will not work (as much as an EAS market works) for people connecting through BNA.


No, it was mentioned from the beginning BNA was intended to be another connecting option for MWA for connecting opportunities. Locally, that's why they were trying to get the community to vote Cape Air to STL and BNA. So if weather goes bad in STL, they can be re routed to BNA, but this will ONLY work when you have a connecting itinerary on the same ticket.

What happens (rhetorical I am not expecting you to actually answer it), when MWA-STL cancels due to MX. Passenger has a flight out of STL on Southwest. Cape Air, if they honor the ticket would be changing the destination from STL to BNA, but would Southwest honor a STL-XXX ticket and switch it BNA-XXX because Cape Air rebooked them?

You mentioned the ULCC in BNA compared to STL, that's true, but Cape Air does not interline with them. So I am struggling to understand the benefit of paying $70 dollars each way MWA-BNA, buy another ticket on an ULCC out of BNA, and connect onward, when the same $70 (SkyWest and Cape Air both publicly stated $70 dollars MWA-ORD or MWA-BNA) can fly you to Chicago, a large city in its own right, plus everything BNA offers and more.

It's a lot of open ended questions, and I will be very curious to see how MWA-BNA-XXX will function with only two flights a day.

QXorVX wrote:
I'll agree ORD would have seemed like a winner, but at 3x the length of a STL flight along with the costs and complexities of operating at ORD must not have looked good. After all, if you are Cape Air you want a lot of seats in and out of these EAS cities, so tying up one plane for such a long time on one round trip would start to cut into that model.


Cape Air was never going to offer MWA-ORD, it was only MWA-STL (6 Daily), or MWA-STL/BNA. (4 and 2 Daily respectively)

SkyWest was the one offering MWA-ORD-XXX under the United Brand with 2 Daily Flights.

Mind you all, and I want to make sure no one is confused, I am not arguing why BNA was chosen along with STL, I am trying to understand, using the arguments for BNA...more ULCC, more non stops, more destinations...ORD clearly was the winner over BNA using those arguments. It boggled my mind that MWA selected STL/BNA instead of ORD. Cest La Vie...I am from Carbondale and used Cape Air MWA-STL all the time, as I live in Chicago. However, diminishing the frequencies to STL, will make it harder for me to travel ORD-STL-MWA, verses ORD-BNA-MWA. I just fly ORD-CGI on UA/OO now, it's 45 min from my hometown versus MWA being 10-15min.

Lexy wrote:
My mistake. I thought we were talking about SkyWest.

Oh! I got you! Yes, SkyWest has a MX Hub in BNA, but Cape Air is the one that bid to fly MWA-BNA and MWA-STL, SkyWest only bid to fly MWA-ORD under the United brand, just questioning why the local folks chose BNA over ORD when ORD offers more then STL and BNA combined!

Alex


ORD plainly has the most O&D (I’m not sure why any O&D passenger would fly MWA-BNA or MWA-STL). That said, ORD doesn’t really offer meaningful connecting opportunities that BNA and STL do not. Both have multiple carriers and reasonable prices to places like New York, Los Angeles, and Dallas that comprise the vast majority of MWA’s demand. Heck, BNA even has LHR.

By virtue of being a single-terminal airport in a one-airport town, BNA probably has the best connecting passenger experience of the three.

To your WN question, since WN has no change fees passengers on anytime fares can switch airports for just the fare difference.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3451
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:11 pm

Cubsrule wrote:

ORD plainly has the most O&D (I’m not sure why any O&D passenger would fly MWA-BNA or MWA-STL). That said, ORD doesn’t really offer meaningful connecting opportunities that BNA and STL do not. Both have multiple carriers and reasonable prices to places like New York, Los Angeles, and Dallas that comprise the vast majority of MWA’s demand. Heck, BNA even has LHR.

By virtue of being a single-terminal airport in a one-airport town, BNA probably has the best connecting passenger experience of the three.

To your WN question, since WN has no change fees passengers on anytime fares can switch airports for just the fare difference.


Cape codeshares with United and American. Going to ORD would increase one stop options by a bunch over STL/BNA. So I can see why ORD would be preferred.

A fair amount of people fly EAS to STL for cards games. Surprises me a bit but I see it a fair amount.

People aren't going to want to pay an extra $200+ last minute fare difference to change airports on Southwest if they can avoid it. I would think when possible people would just book codeshare flights with AA/UA just to make sure they have some missed flight protection. STL also has a post security shuttle for cape air passengers between terminals so they don't have to go out and back in if they do fly Southwest.

This all said I think BNA will do fine with the route. Most people like mentioned aren't going to be flying to BNA/STL as their final stop so having 2 airports as options gives them more flight options for their 2nd leg. STL has PHX on AA, BNA has LAX on UA and if BA counts, that option also. They could even fly MWA-STL-XXX-BNA-MWA if the timing/price is better.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3451
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:34 pm

18 companies put in their name to run the airport if it privatizes.

While the entire process has been shady, I will say seeing some of the big hitters in Europe does peak my interest.

A few of them and what they run.

Royal Schiphol Group is the owner and operator of Amsterdam Airport Schiphol, Rotterdam The Hague Airport and Lelystad Airport, and holds a majority stake in Eindhoven Airport.
Groupe ADP runs CDG, ORY, LBG
IFM Investors and MAG Overseas Investments Limited, on behalf of Manchester Airports Group - Manchester airport and London Stansted.
daa International own and manage Dublin and Cork airports and have international airport operations and investments in Cyprus, Germany and Saudi Arabia.
Atlantia - Via its subsidiary, Aeroporti di Roma (ADR), the Group operates and develops Rome's Fiumicino and Ciampino airports and carries out activities linked to airport management.
Corporación América operates airport and cargo terminals in fifty-two airports of Latin America and Europe.

So if one of those with some experience were to get it then I would be hopeful they could do something really great here.

I just hope some local group or group with no airport experience would be picked. That could end up a disaster.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3451
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:14 am

 
User avatar
TWA302
Posts: 711
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:17 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:34 pm

Jshank83 wrote:


I went to look at the schedule on the 9K site and it shows the P2012 will be used! Looking forward to seeing these
 
pmanni1
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:17 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:53 pm

SY bringing back MSP/PDX in June. Both flights are Mon & Fri.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:55 pm

Jshank83 wrote:


So this means SkyWest/United will have to continue serving UIN until January 7th then?

Per DOT and EAS requirements they do not want any interruption in air service when the airlines transition.

Wiki...shows December 1st so we know this cannot be correct.

Anxiously waiting for Cape Air to schedule MWA's for STL and BNA! I have to book my Christmas Schedule and have to wait until the schedule is out so I can try to fly into Marion for Christmas!

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3451
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:54 pm

Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW), Madison (MSN) in Wisconsin, Portland (PDX) in Oregon, and St. Louis (STL) are all markets where Sun Country plans to grow. Or as Bricker puts it, cities where “we’d like to build a brand in and have loyalty.”

Bricker and his team plan to grow the airline to at least 50 Boeing 737-800 aircraft — it will operate 33 jets by March — and establish its brand, if not bases, in at least four markets outside of the Twin Cities, he said.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/sun-count ... t-carrier/
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 787
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:25 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW), Madison (MSN) in Wisconsin, Portland (PDX) in Oregon, and St. Louis (STL) are all markets where Sun Country plans to grow. Or as Bricker puts it, cities where “we’d like to build a brand in and have loyalty.”

Bricker and his team plan to grow the airline to at least 50 Boeing 737-800 aircraft — it will operate 33 jets by March — and establish its brand, if not bases, in at least four markets outside of the Twin Cities, he said.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/sun-count ... t-carrier/


Interesting. Do they plan to do more routes year round? And where will they get the additional planes?
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3451
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:33 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW), Madison (MSN) in Wisconsin, Portland (PDX) in Oregon, and St. Louis (STL) are all markets where Sun Country plans to grow. Or as Bricker puts it, cities where “we’d like to build a brand in and have loyalty.”

Bricker and his team plan to grow the airline to at least 50 Boeing 737-800 aircraft — it will operate 33 jets by March — and establish its brand, if not bases, in at least four markets outside of the Twin Cities, he said.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/sun-count ... t-carrier/


Interesting. Do they plan to do more routes year round? And where will they get the additional planes?


I am guessing once the MAXs get flying again there will be a glut of NGs they can get. I think someone posted an article in some forum about the expected flooding of the market of old models once airlines get their MAXs delivered.
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 787
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:43 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW), Madison (MSN) in Wisconsin, Portland (PDX) in Oregon, and St. Louis (STL) are all markets where Sun Country plans to grow. Or as Bricker puts it, cities where “we’d like to build a brand in and have loyalty.”

Bricker and his team plan to grow the airline to at least 50 Boeing 737-800 aircraft — it will operate 33 jets by March — and establish its brand, if not bases, in at least four markets outside of the Twin Cities, he said.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/sun-count ... t-carrier/


Interesting. Do they plan to do more routes year round? And where will they get the additional planes?


I am guessing once the MAXs get flying again there will be a glut of NGs they can get. I think someone posted an article in some forum about the expected flooding of the market of old models once airlines get their MAXs delivered.


They’ll need to establish more routes year round if they want to build more loyalty and given the likes of WN and NK legit competition.
 
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stl07
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:39 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW), Madison (MSN) in Wisconsin, Portland (PDX) in Oregon, and St. Louis (STL) are all markets where Sun Country plans to grow. Or as Bricker puts it, cities where “we’d like to build a brand in and have loyalty.”

Bricker and his team plan to grow the airline to at least 50 Boeing 737-800 aircraft — it will operate 33 jets by March — and establish its brand, if not bases, in at least four markets outside of the Twin Cities, he said.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/sun-count ... t-carrier/

All talk and no action. They just added 12 new routes. 12. And none were from STL. And they have made mini-hubs in DFW, PDX, and MSN, but not in STL. Now, I'm not saying they were wrong in not adding anything from STL (in fact, the bare-bones presence they had was even farther reduced from 6x a week to 4x), but I find it a bit odd that they are now saying they want to grow. But then again, if I were a CEO and I had no clue what the future of an airport would be, or if a private operator would suddenly jack up landing fees, I wouldn't want to invest in routes to STL either.
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:51 pm

stl07 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW), Madison (MSN) in Wisconsin, Portland (PDX) in Oregon, and St. Louis (STL) are all markets where Sun Country plans to grow. Or as Bricker puts it, cities where “we’d like to build a brand in and have loyalty.”

Bricker and his team plan to grow the airline to at least 50 Boeing 737-800 aircraft — it will operate 33 jets by March — and establish its brand, if not bases, in at least four markets outside of the Twin Cities, he said.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/sun-count ... t-carrier/

All talk and no action. They just added 12 new routes. 12. And none were from STL. And they have made mini-hubs in DFW, PDX, and MSN, but not in STL. Now, I'm not saying they were wrong in not adding anything from STL (in fact, the bare-bones presence they had was even farther reduced from 6x a week to 4x), but I find it a bit odd that they are now saying they want to grow. But then again, if I were a CEO and I had no clue what the future of an airport would be, or if a private operator would suddenly jack up landing fees, I wouldn't want to invest in routes to STL either.


Plenty of time to still announce more routes for summer. They came in about exactly a year ago and have added 5 seasonal destinations. No one else here is doing that except Southwest. And they are bringing them all back, unlike what Frontier does. So I won’t complain. It is good to see us mentioned as a focus. We will see what (if anything) comes of it.
 
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stl07
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:35 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
And they are bringing them all back, unlike what Frontier does.

That I will give you. I was impressed by that
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:50 pm

3rd A319 for Air Canada from Toronto in 4 days. Strange

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ACA ... /CYYZ/KSTL
 
dcaproducer
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:54 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
3rd A319 for Air Canada from Toronto in 4 days. Strange

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ACA ... /CYYZ/KSTL


That is strange. Wonder what the LF was on those flights. Big jump from a 50 seater.

In response to the Sun Country comments above, daily and/or more frequent flights would go a long way to building brand loyalty and awareness. Business travelers are going to have a hard time booking an airline without daily flights, especially if a flight gets cancelled and there's little chance of a re-route. With infrequent flights, their current target market is similar to Allegiant, leisure passengers looking for the best deal.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:23 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
3rd A319 for Air Canada from Toronto in 4 days. Strange

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ACA ... /CYYZ/KSTL


That is strange. Wonder what the LF was on those flights. Big jump from a 50 seater.


Sounds like it has to do with the transfer from Air Georgian to Jazz air at the end of the month. So it might happen randomly between now and then.
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:55 am

Jshank83 wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
3rd A319 for Air Canada from Toronto in 4 days. Strange

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ACA ... /CYYZ/KSTL


That is strange. Wonder what the LF was on those flights. Big jump from a 50 seater.


Sounds like it has to do with the transfer from Air Georgian to Jazz air at the end of the month. So it might happen randomly between now and then.


So we are getting QK CR9s soon?
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:54 am

TWA302 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:

That is strange. Wonder what the LF was on those flights. Big jump from a 50 seater.


Sounds like it has to do with the transfer from Air Georgian to Jazz air at the end of the month. So it might happen randomly between now and then.


So we are getting QK CR9s soon?


We are scheduled to stay with the same plane type. I think all of Air Georgians planes are transferring to Jazz. I think Jazz is supposed to be redoing the interiors though.

But at least like you mention they have -900s so maybe at some point we see some of those.
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:46 am

Jshank83 wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:

Sounds like it has to do with the transfer from Air Georgian to Jazz air at the end of the month. So it might happen randomly between now and then.


So we are getting QK CR9s soon?


We are scheduled to stay with the same plane type. I think all of Air Georgians planes are transferring to Jazz. I think Jazz is supposed to be redoing the interiors though.

But at least like you mention they have -900s so maybe at some point we see some of those.


Well, aren't you a Debbie Downer!! Lol. Lipstick on a pig I guess.
 
dcaproducer
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:53 pm

I remember flying to Toronto in the 90's on a TWA 727. lol
Times have changed.

From yesterday's news.. Boeing seems confident the Max will be cleared to fly in January. That could be a big boost to WN's summer 2020 flying when they'll suddenly have a bunch of grounded aircraft back and backed up Max deliveries.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:54 pm

Anyone in the air over STL when that meteorite hit last night?
 
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stl07
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:17 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
In response to the Sun Country comments above, daily and/or more frequent flights would go a long way to building brand loyalty and awareness. Business travelers are going to have a hard time booking an airline without daily flights, especially if a flight gets cancelled and there's little chance of a re-route. With infrequent flights, their current target market is similar to Allegiant, leisure passengers looking for the best deal.

I think the biggest problem they need to address right now is ramping up before Spirit comes into town. Once Spirit starts service, they are toast, just like what happened in BNA. SY had all these grand plans, but Spirit swooped in with daily flights and connections around the country via their hubs, and now SY had to cancel a bunch of BNA destinations and no longer calls them a focus city.
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
maps4ltd
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:42 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Anyone in the air over STL when that meteorite hit last night?


Far higher in the atmosphere, so would be about the same vantage as the arch.
Delta Gold Medallion
 
loard
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:51 pm

TWA302 wrote:
PhilMcCrackin wrote:
stl07 wrote:
It was more of conversations they overheard and civic leaders saying they were going to tell their home cities how nice STL was and completely different than when they visited say 20 years ago., not come here and say something good about STL. Jokes aside (I particularly liked the trolly one :)), we all (myself included) love to complain about the region, it offers many great attractions for visitors, off the charts for those who like history. No, it's not Miami but with the resurgence, we have lived through, in the past 5 or so years, it is becoming a great place


I'd say it's gotten worse over the past twenty years. The population is down, murder rates are up, several F500s have left or been bought out since then, we lost an NFL team, we lost a hubbed airline, we have an inept mayor and a corrupt police force. And the worst part is there is no clear plan or direction on how to improve any of this.


The only population that is DOWN is the City of St. Louis and parts of St. Louis County (2000 - 2018) every other County in the metro has seen growth, and St. Charles being the biggest of them all. The city is the problem, not the rest of the metro. I'll give you the crime downtown (yep, north city is a shit hole) but the NFL screwed St. Louis. We did nothing wrong. Douche canoe wanted more money. Plain and simple. We lost TW because they were broke (not the fault of St. Louis). You are grasping at straws with some of these claims. Big companies come and go. There IS job growth, especially in the tech sector. Let the moron mayor of the city figure it out is laughable. She couldn't figure out how to get out of a paper bag.

St. Louis gets a bad rap for some of the most media-hyped up invalid and or false reasons and part of it is on the shoulders of the people here who think there is nothing to do, crime is too high, yada, yada, yada.


Yes i agree with you St. Louis Aviation is filled with firsts. Actually St. Louis is historical city i wish to go there but i can't do this every time due to some issues i think there is valid reason behind St. Louis media-hyped. Your represent that you have great info about St. Louis share more detail as increasing my info about St. Louis but there is many things are different on wiki about St. Louis.
would you like to explain .....?
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:58 pm

maps4ltd wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Anyone in the air over STL when that meteorite hit last night?


Far higher in the atmosphere, so would be about the same vantage as the arch.


https://twitter.com/i/status/1194093011979898882

Good perspective of it. I picked it up on my security cameras too. I didn't hear it but it would have been really awesome to see it from up in the sky.
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 300
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:02 pm

stl07 wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
In response to the Sun Country comments above, daily and/or more frequent flights would go a long way to building brand loyalty and awareness. Business travelers are going to have a hard time booking an airline without daily flights, especially if a flight gets cancelled and there's little chance of a re-route. With infrequent flights, their current target market is similar to Allegiant, leisure passengers looking for the best deal.

I think the biggest problem they need to address right now is ramping up before Spirit comes into town. Once Spirit starts service, they are toast, just like what happened in BNA. SY had all these grand plans, but Spirit swooped in with daily flights and connections around the country via their hubs, and now SY had to cancel a bunch of BNA destinations and no longer calls them a focus city.


And I think the clock is ticking on this.
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:31 pm

loard wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
PhilMcCrackin wrote:

I'd say it's gotten worse over the past twenty years. The population is down, murder rates are up, several F500s have left or been bought out since then, we lost an NFL team, we lost a hubbed airline, we have an inept mayor and a corrupt police force. And the worst part is there is no clear plan or direction on how to improve any of this.


The only population that is DOWN is the City of St. Louis and parts of St. Louis County (2000 - 2018) every other County in the metro has seen growth, and St. Charles being the biggest of them all. The city is the problem, not the rest of the metro. I'll give you the crime downtown (yep, north city is a shit hole) but the NFL screwed St. Louis. We did nothing wrong. Douche canoe wanted more money. Plain and simple. We lost TW because they were broke (not the fault of St. Louis). You are grasping at straws with some of these claims. Big companies come and go. There IS job growth, especially in the tech sector. Let the moron mayor of the city figure it out is laughable. She couldn't figure out how to get out of a paper bag.

St. Louis gets a bad rap for some of the most media-hyped up invalid and or false reasons and part of it is on the shoulders of the people here who think there is nothing to do, crime is too high, yada, yada, yada.


Yes i agree with you St. Louis Aviation is filled with firsts. Actually St. Louis is historical city i wish to go there but i can't do this every time due to some issues i think there is valid reason behind St. Louis media-hyped. Your represent that you have great info about St. Louis share more detail as increasing my info about St. Louis but there is many things are different on wiki about St. Louis.
would you like to explain .....?


Hi, welcome to a.net. Glad to have you! Happy to help but I am unsure what you are asking of me? I know language barriers exist here and I want to help in any way I can.
 
PhilMcCrackin
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:49 pm

TWA302 wrote:
The only population that is DOWN is the City of St. Louis and parts of St. Louis County (2000 - 2018) every other County in the metro has seen growth, and St. Charles being the biggest of them all. The city is the problem, not the rest of the metro.


Why is this the common deflection when people start criticizing on the city?

"Ohhhhhhh, well the county has this and that, this is a great place!"

That's fine. I'm not talking about the metro region. I'm talking about the city - which has been in population decline since the 50s.

but the NFL screwed St. Louis. We did nothing wrong. Douche canoe wanted more money. Plain and simple.


Besides having some of the worst attendance in the league. Let me ask you this. Let's say you have an asset worth a billion dollars and you can double the value of that asset overnight by moving it somewhere else.

Why wouldn't you do that?

We lost TW because they were broke (not the fault of St. Louis).


The financial viability of a hub in STL was highly questionable. More than one airline has tried to come into STL and set it up as a focus city since then and failed magnificently.

You are grasping at straws with some of these claims. Big companies come and go. There IS job growth, especially in the tech sector. Let the moron mayor of the city figure it out is laughable. She couldn't figure out how to get out of a paper bag.


I'm using facts, not claims. City leadership is inept. The police force is corrupt. The city prosecutor's office is a shit show with a circuit attorney that refuses to work with the corrupt police force, because, well, they're corrupt. The schools are awful. They just shit away $50M on a stupid trolley system that isn't viable and still requires large infusions of cash because it isn't anywhere near self sustaining, yet they refuse to cut their losses and kill it because they'll owe those federal grants back to the fed if they give up. Oh yeah, and we're still paying on a football stadium that doesn't have a football team.

St. Louis gets a bad rap for some of the most media-hyped up invalid and or false reasons and part of it is on the shoulders of the people here who think there is nothing to do, crime is too high, yada, yada, yada.


STL deserves the bad rap it gets. Most of the provincial thinking people from STL won't agree with you on that, but that's how the rest of the country views it. Crime stats don't lie.
 
dcaproducer
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:35 am

PhilMcCrackin wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
The only population that is DOWN is the City of St. Louis and parts of St. Louis County (2000 - 2018) every other County in the metro has seen growth, and St. Charles being the biggest of them all. The city is the problem, not the rest of the metro.


Why is this the common deflection when people start criticizing on the city?

"Ohhhhhhh, well the county has this and that, this is a great place!"

That's fine. I'm not talking about the metro region. I'm talking about the city - which has been in population decline since the 50s.

but the NFL screwed St. Louis. We did nothing wrong. Douche canoe wanted more money. Plain and simple.


Besides having some of the worst attendance in the league. Let me ask you this. Let's say you have an asset worth a billion dollars and you can double the value of that asset overnight by moving it somewhere else.

Why wouldn't you do that?

We lost TW because they were broke (not the fault of St. Louis).


The financial viability of a hub in STL was highly questionable. More than one airline has tried to come into STL and set it up as a focus city since then and failed magnificently.

You are grasping at straws with some of these claims. Big companies come and go. There IS job growth, especially in the tech sector. Let the moron mayor of the city figure it out is laughable. She couldn't figure out how to get out of a paper bag.


I'm using facts, not claims. City leadership is inept. The police force is corrupt. The city prosecutor's office is a shit show with a circuit attorney that refuses to work with the corrupt police force, because, well, they're corrupt. The schools are awful. They just shit away $50M on a stupid trolley system that isn't viable and still requires large infusions of cash because it isn't anywhere near self sustaining, yet they refuse to cut their losses and kill it because they'll owe those federal grants back to the fed if they give up. Oh yeah, and we're still paying on a football stadium that doesn't have a football team.

St. Louis gets a bad rap for some of the most media-hyped up invalid and or false reasons and part of it is on the shoulders of the people here who think there is nothing to do, crime is too high, yada, yada, yada.


STL deserves the bad rap it gets. Most of the provincial thinking people from STL won't agree with you on that, but that's how the rest of the country views it. Crime stats don't lie.


Lots to unwrap here. I was going to leave this alone, but you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about something. I’m also coming at this from the perspective of someone who grew up in STL, but has lived in DC for the past 20 years. I still have a lot of family in West County.

The city population has declined greatly. Most urban areas, especially in the Midwest faced this same issue. STL just hasn’t bounced back as fast as other cities, but with new residential development in the city, this downward trend may begin to turn around.

The state of US airlines in the 90’s and early 2000’s was not good all around. TWA’s issues stemmed from a variety of issues including terrible mismanagement and Carl Icahn.
Airlines today, have had the best decade since deregulation. The 2000’s were one airline bankruptcy after another including DL, UA, NW, US and TW. To basically imply it’s STL’s fault that TW failed is way oversimplifying the economic factors and history at play.

Which airline(s) has/have tried to setup a focus city in STL since the AA de-hubbing and failed?? WN has taken full advantage of the vacuum and created a strong operation.

I won’t say the Trolley isn’t stupid, because it is, but every mass transit system (this isn’t one) in the US requires infusions of cash to survive, including DC’s Metro, which has the second highest ridership behind NYC. Tickets don’t cover 100% of any US subway system.

My biggest issue with the city’s leadership, and this has been an issue for decades, is that everyone just looking out for themselves.
And I’d argue St. Louis residents have a more negative view of their city than people outside looking in.
 
gnakra80
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:58 am

Yes STL has a crime problem, but there is some freakanomics that people aren’t aware of. One thing that inflates the crime rate is that the east St. Louis area doesn’t have a trauma center, victims of violent crime are often times treated at St Louis University or Barnes, which artificially inflates the violent crime for the city of St Louis.

Also, if the city spent $70M on funding a useless trolley, certainly they can take a portion to subsidize flights to London and Frankfurt!

I have the perspective of DCAProducer, was born and raised in west county, but moved away for college and never returned.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:36 am

dcaproducer wrote:

My biggest issue with the city’s leadership, and this has been an issue for decades, is that everyone just looking out for themselves.


This. Not enough cooperation and too much I care about me. Not that the county hasn’t had its own problems. I think the new county executive is going to be pretty good though. Not that he could be any worse than Stenger.

I think the city is starting an upswing now but it obviously has a long long way to go. I think you have to be able to see both sides. Some things are improving but other things are not.

gnakra80 wrote:
Also, if the city spent $70M on funding a useless trolley, certainly they can take a portion to subsidize flights to London and Frankfurt!
.


Yep.
 
dcaproducer
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:27 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:

My biggest issue with the city’s leadership, and this has been an issue for decades, is that everyone just looking out for themselves.


This. Not enough cooperation and too much I care about me. Not that the county hasn’t had its own problems. I think the new county executive is going to be pretty good though. Not that he could be any worse than Stenger.

I think the city is starting an upswing now but it obviously has a long long way to go. I think you have to be able to see both sides. Some things are improving but other things are not.

gnakra80 wrote:
Also, if the city spent $70M on funding a useless trolley, certainly they can take a portion to subsidize flights to London and Frankfurt!
.


Yep.


And the way cities turn thing around also come down to people investing and believing in the community. There are some folks starting to do this. The city will be a much different, and better, place in 5-10 years.

And yes, the city totally mismanages the airports potential.
 
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stl07
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:27 pm

If you follow united (or jshank :) ), you probably saw the tweet this morning about touring the jet. Someone here needs to do it
https://twitter.com/united/status/1195024883228594176
Marriott Titanium and MileagePlus members get to go.
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Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:51 pm

[quote="PhilMcCrackin"]

"The financial viability of a hub in STL was highly questionable. More than one airline has tried to come into STL and set it up as a focus city since then and failed magnificently."

Let's see, we've had TWA, Ozark, Air1, AA and Southwest. Air1 was a joke to begin with, TWA bought Ozark which was profitable if not a gangbuster profit machine. TWA was Icahned into the dirt. AA picked up the remains and then 9-11 happened. AA's strategy for STL was totally upended by 9-11. WN on the other hand has a nice "not-a-hub-but-it-is" operation here, larger per seats then the Ozark hub at it's peak. STL is apparently a viable "hub", just not in the current day legacy mega-hub sense.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:21 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
PhilMcCrackin wrote:

"The financial viability of a hub in STL was highly questionable. More than one airline has tried to come into STL and set it up as a focus city since then and failed magnificently."

Let's see, we've had TWA, Ozark, Air1, AA and Southwest. Air1 was a joke to begin with, TWA bought Ozark which was profitable if not a gangbuster profit machine. TWA was Icahned into the dirt. AA picked up the remains and then 9-11 happened. AA's strategy for STL was totally upended by 9-11. WN on the other hand has a nice "not-a-hub-but-it-is" operation here, larger per seats then the Ozark hub at it's peak. STL is apparently a viable "hub", just not in the current day legacy mega-hub sense.


I agree with you. The "not financially viable" claim can stopped being thorwn around. WN would not be growing and making huge financial investments at STL if they didn't have a long(er) term plan(s). I would bet that in the next 10 years, WN will open/update and occupy the rest of the old D.

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