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OzarkD9S
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:43 pm

TWA302 wrote:

I would bet that in the next 10 years, WN will open/update and occupy the rest of the old D.


You'll probably win that bet.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:49 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
TWA302 wrote:

I would bet that in the next 10 years, WN will open/update and occupy the rest of the old D.


You'll probably win that bet.


I wouldn’t go that far. That’s a lot of gates to reopen, especially since STL isn’t even a base. They may reopen a few more, but the entire D is a stretch.
 
SWADawg
Posts: 543
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:43 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:55 pm

There are already plans by WN to take the rest of D Concourse once the MAX is back in service, so no, not a stretch at all.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 501
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:59 pm

SWADawg wrote:
There are already plans by WN to take the rest of D Concourse once the MAX is back in service, so no, not a stretch at all.


So is STL going to be a base for WN or something?
 
SWADawg
Posts: 543
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:43 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:01 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
There are already plans by WN to take the rest of D Concourse once the MAX is back in service, so no, not a stretch at all.


So is STL going to be a base for WN or something?

We’ve been told it’s on the shortlist for a possible base along with BNA in the future, so yes, possibly.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:07 pm

SWADawg wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
There are already plans by WN to take the rest of D Concourse once the MAX is back in service, so no, not a stretch at all.


So is STL going to be a base for WN or something?

We’ve been told it’s on the shortlist for a possible base along with BNA in the future, so yes, possibly.


Interesting. My understanding is BNA is likely within the next few years as there are crew lounges and an operations center under construction in the new Concourse D being built, which is scheduled to open next year.

I’m surprised STL is also under consideration considering I thought it was simply a large reliever for MDW
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:29 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

So is STL going to be a base for WN or something?

We’ve been told it’s on the shortlist for a possible base along with BNA in the future, so yes, possibly.


Interesting. My understanding is BNA is likely within the next few years as there are crew lounges and an operations center under construction in the new Concourse D being built, which is scheduled to open next year.

I’m surprised STL is also under consideration considering I thought it was simply a large reliever for MDW


BNAMealer, you seem to like to troll the STL thread for some reason.
WN has large operations at BNA and STL. WN has made it clear, on the record, they plan to continue to grow STL as well as BNA.

STL airport officials have already discussed reopening more of D and re-connecting it to T1. This isn't news. If the Max hadn't been grounded, this likely would have happened this year. STL is also getting ready to expand the baggage claim area at T2 to give WN another baggage carousel and is looking at an expanded FIS facility.
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:36 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
We’ve been told it’s on the shortlist for a possible base along with BNA in the future, so yes, possibly.


Interesting. My understanding is BNA is likely within the next few years as there are crew lounges and an operations center under construction in the new Concourse D being built, which is scheduled to open next year.

I’m surprised STL is also under consideration considering I thought it was simply a large reliever for MDW


BNAMealer, you seem to like to troll the STL thread for some reason.
WN has large operations at BNA and STL. WN has made it clear, on the record, they plan to continue to grow STL as well as BNA.

STL airport officials have already discussed reopening more of D and re-connecting it to T1. This isn't news. If the Max hadn't been grounded, this likely would have happened this year. STL is also getting ready to expand the baggage claim area at T2 to give WN another baggage carousel and is looking at an expanded FIS facility.


Care to explain how?
 
stlgph
Posts: 11037
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:03 pm

At least right now in the realms of expansion and customer service improvements made and paid for by Southwest - the airport and the city of St. Louis remains friendly and affordable for such projects.

One could only imagine the cost difference in adding an additional baggage claim in STL and adding one in MDW - easily in the multi-millions.

While many parts remain not "pretty" or "glamorous," Ms. Rhonda has done a good job of keeping things in check and within reason.
Of course things could change as this privatization proposal works itself out.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3118
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:42 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

So is STL going to be a base for WN or something?

We’ve been told it’s on the shortlist for a possible base along with BNA in the future, so yes, possibly.


Interesting. My understanding is BNA is likely within the next few years as there are crew lounges and an operations center under construction in the new Concourse D being built, which is scheduled to open next year.

I’m surprised STL is also under consideration considering I thought it was simply a large reliever for MDW


Even if we say it is a reliever station why does they mean it can't be a crew base? MDW is pretty much tapped out so it isn't like it won't need relief long term.

As others mentioned I think BNA/STL both are probably on the short list. Both stations are growing and pretty close to the same size flights wise. WN has plenty of room to expand at STL and fees have come way down. I don't think WN is funding almost all of the baggage expansion (extra baggage claim and a new baggage input from the air side) if they don't plan to keep growing here. Plus the mentioned new gates they are opening to go to 20+.

Both BNA and STL can flourish for WN, it isn't an either/or situation.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3118
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:00 pm

International Load Factor for May

Southwest Cancun 83%
Frontier Cancun 82%
Frontier Punta Cana 77%
Air Canada 76%
Apple/Volaris Cabo 70%
Apple/Volaris Puerto Vallarta 45%
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:43 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

Interesting. My understanding is BNA is likely within the next few years as there are crew lounges and an operations center under construction in the new Concourse D being built, which is scheduled to open next year.

I’m surprised STL is also under consideration considering I thought it was simply a large reliever for MDW


BNAMealer, you seem to like to troll the STL thread for some reason.
WN has large operations at BNA and STL. WN has made it clear, on the record, they plan to continue to grow STL as well as BNA.

STL airport officials have already discussed reopening more of D and re-connecting it to T1. This isn't news. If the Max hadn't been grounded, this likely would have happened this year. STL is also getting ready to expand the baggage claim area at T2 to give WN another baggage carousel and is looking at an expanded FIS facility.


Care to explain how?


Go through the past few pages and all of your posts read like mine is bigger than yours. (I don’t live in STL or BNA, so I have no horse in this race)
Your posts show a lack of knowledge and history of the STL market. You continue to post in the STL thread for who knows what reason other than to poke at the current service and say something positive and/or superior about BNA. That’s trolling.

A simple search would lead you to WN’s discussions and decisions regarding STL as well as news articles and earnings call comments.
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:47 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
We’ve been told it’s on the shortlist for a possible base along with BNA in the future, so yes, possibly.


Interesting. My understanding is BNA is likely within the next few years as there are crew lounges and an operations center under construction in the new Concourse D being built, which is scheduled to open next year.

I’m surprised STL is also under consideration considering I thought it was simply a large reliever for MDW


Even if we say it is a reliever station why does they mean it can't be a crew base? MDW is pretty much tapped out so it isn't like it won't need relief long term.

As others mentioned I think BNA/STL both are probably on the short list. Both stations are growing and pretty close to the same size flights wise. WN has plenty of room to expand at STL and fees have come way down. I don't think WN is funding almost all of the baggage expansion (extra baggage claim and a new baggage input from the air side) if they don't plan to keep growing here. Plus the mentioned new gates they are opening to go to 20+.

Both BNA and STL can flourish for WN, it isn't an either/or situation.


Completely agree. WN has invested significantly in T2 at STL. There’s no reason both markets won’t play a strong role in their network. STL also has a good amount of available space.
I think it’s a matter of the Max getting back in the air and we’ll see D reopening to once again connect the two terminals.
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:43 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:

BNAMealer, you seem to like to troll the STL thread for some reason.
WN has large operations at BNA and STL. WN has made it clear, on the record, they plan to continue to grow STL as well as BNA.

STL airport officials have already discussed reopening more of D and re-connecting it to T1. This isn't news. If the Max hadn't been grounded, this likely would have happened this year. STL is also getting ready to expand the baggage claim area at T2 to give WN another baggage carousel and is looking at an expanded FIS facility.


Care to explain how?


Go through the past few pages and all of your posts read like mine is bigger than yours. (I don’t live in STL or BNA, so I have no horse in this race)
Your posts show a lack of knowledge and history of the STL market. You continue to post in the STL thread for who knows what reason other than to poke at the current service and say something positive and/or superior about BNA. That’s trolling.

A simple search would lead you to WN’s discussions and decisions regarding STL as well as news articles and earnings call comments.


I fail to see how simple inquiries are trolling, you should be careful before you make such an accusation. I rarely have posted on this thread actually. I can point you to several real trolls if you'd like.

These inquiries are simply wondering why WN would set up STL would be a base, it has nothing to do with STL as a whole. It appears from a distance, a full WN base at STL doesn't make much sense because STL doesn't really serve a major strategic purpose in its network other than relieving MDW (which operationally, is an awful airport), but there's probably more to the story here. Plus, I thought costs at STL were still on the higher side from the building of runway 11/29, but they have apparently been able to get that under control.

All I am trying to do is have an honest conversation. I actually have a great deal of respect for users like Jshank83 who post a lot of thoughtful responses, including the one he did to my comment above. There's no issue here.

Back to the conversation, I will say it will be interesting to see if WN indeed takes over all of D at STL and doubles their gate capacity at BNA, that is potential for two 200+ flight stations fairly close to one another. I wonder what the strategy is here.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3118
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:29 am

BNAMealer wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

Care to explain how?


Go through the past few pages and all of your posts read like mine is bigger than yours. (I don’t live in STL or BNA, so I have no horse in this race)
Your posts show a lack of knowledge and history of the STL market. You continue to post in the STL thread for who knows what reason other than to poke at the current service and say something positive and/or superior about BNA. That’s trolling.

A simple search would lead you to WN’s discussions and decisions regarding STL as well as news articles and earnings call comments.


I fail to see how simple inquiries are trolling, you should be careful before you make such an accusation. I rarely have posted on this thread actually. I can point you to several real trolls if you'd like.

These inquiries are simply wondering why WN would set up STL would be a base, it has nothing to do with STL as a whole. It appears from a distance, a full WN base at STL doesn't make much sense because STL doesn't really serve a major strategic purpose in its network other than relieving MDW (which operationally, is an awful airport), but there's probably more to the story here. Plus, I thought costs at STL were still on the higher side from the building of runway 11/29, but they have apparently been able to get that under control.

All I am trying to do is have an honest conversation. I actually have a great deal of respect for users like Jshank83 who post a lot of thoughtful responses, including the one he did to my comment above. There's no issue here.

Back to the conversation, I will say it will be interesting to see if WN indeed takes over all of D at STL and doubles their gate capacity at BNA, that is potential for two 200+ flight stations fairly close to one another. I wonder what the strategy is here.



Fees have come down a bunch in the last 5 years. Terminal rental rates are some of the lowest in the country. CPE and landing fees I think are pretty middle of the road now but I would have to research those to be sure. I can try to look into it sometime in the next few days.

I’m hoping this leads to more ULCCs adding flights. Like spirit.
 
Trololzilla
Posts: 129
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:53 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:15 am

CPE at STL is going down fairly quickly; it was at $11.10 at the end of FY2017, and already down to $8.87 at the end of FY2018. Wouldn't be surprised if it's down even more since then.

Source: https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... Report.pdf

This source includes a graph comparing STL's CPE to other similar airports. Keep in mind, though, that the figures are from 2017, so it was still ~$11.85 then.
 
PhilMcCrackin
Posts: 201
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:54 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:00 am

BNAMealer wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

Care to explain how?


Go through the past few pages and all of your posts read like mine is bigger than yours. (I don’t live in STL or BNA, so I have no horse in this race)
Your posts show a lack of knowledge and history of the STL market. You continue to post in the STL thread for who knows what reason other than to poke at the current service and say something positive and/or superior about BNA. That’s trolling.

A simple search would lead you to WN’s discussions and decisions regarding STL as well as news articles and earnings call comments.


I fail to see how simple inquiries are trolling, you should be careful before you make such an accusation. I rarely have posted on this thread actually. I can point you to several real trolls if you'd like.

These inquiries are simply wondering why WN would set up STL would be a base, it has nothing to do with STL as a whole. It appears from a distance, a full WN base at STL doesn't make much sense because STL doesn't really serve a major strategic purpose in its network other than relieving MDW (which operationally, is an awful airport), but there's probably more to the story here. Plus, I thought costs at STL were still on the higher side from the building of runway 11/29, but they have apparently been able to get that under control.

All I am trying to do is have an honest conversation. I actually have a great deal of respect for users like Jshank83 who post a lot of thoughtful responses, including the one he did to my comment above. There's no issue here.

Back to the conversation, I will say it will be interesting to see if WN indeed takes over all of D at STL and doubles their gate capacity at BNA, that is potential for two 200+ flight stations fairly close to one another. I wonder what the strategy is here.


I mean, I don't see people from anywhere else participate in this thread, yet we have two people that are obvious fans of BNA that like to come in here and regularly light off a hot dog waving contest.

I too question your motives. Just sayin'.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3118
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:11 am

Trololzilla wrote:
CPE at STL is going down fairly quickly; it was at $11.10 at the end of FY2017, and already down to $8.87 at the end of FY2018. Wouldn't be surprised if it's down even more since then.

Source: https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... Report.pdf

This source includes a graph comparing STL's CPE to other similar airports. Keep in mind, though, that the figures are from 2017, so it was still ~$11.85 then.


I looked thru my old tweets. I knew it was mentioned recently in a commission meeting. Down to $8.80 this year. Also saw in another old tweet $1 of the CPE is due to the payout the city gets every year. Most airports don’t have that.
 
midway7
Posts: 264
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:24 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:27 am

[quote="BNAMealer"][quote="dcaproducer"][quote="BNAMealer"]



These inquiries are simply wondering why WN would set up STL would be a base, it has nothing to do with STL as a whole. It appears from a distance, a full WN base at STL doesn't make much sense because STL doesn't really serve a major strategic purpose in its network other than relieving MDW (which operationally, is an awful airport), but there's probably more to the story here. Plus, I thought costs at STL were still on the higher side from the building of runway 11/29, but they have apparently been able to get that under control.

Regarding SW at STL, I think they will expand it for a couple reasons. One, as a reliever due to the limitations at MDW. Second, SW seems to have been on a path the past decade to pretty much own the midwest. They have bases and significant ops at MDW, STL, BNA, MCI. I think it is just an focus that they do well on. Wish they would consider more in the PACNW.
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:52 pm

PhilMcCrackin wrote:
I mean, I don't see people from anywhere else participate in this thread, yet we have two people that are obvious fans of BNA that like to come in here and regularly light off a hot dog waving contest.

I too question your motives. Just sayin'.


I don’t recall it being against the rules for someone to post in another city’s thread. This is a public forum where people come to talk about things. If you don’t like my posts, skip them.

Again, I can point to a lot of real trolls on this site if you’d like, including some that are fans for my home airport.

Back to the conversation......
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:09 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:

Go through the past few pages and all of your posts read like mine is bigger than yours. (I don’t live in STL or BNA, so I have no horse in this race)
Your posts show a lack of knowledge and history of the STL market. You continue to post in the STL thread for who knows what reason other than to poke at the current service and say something positive and/or superior about BNA. That’s trolling.

A simple search would lead you to WN’s discussions and decisions regarding STL as well as news articles and earnings call comments.


I fail to see how simple inquiries are trolling, you should be careful before you make such an accusation. I rarely have posted on this thread actually. I can point you to several real trolls if you'd like.

These inquiries are simply wondering why WN would set up STL would be a base, it has nothing to do with STL as a whole. It appears from a distance, a full WN base at STL doesn't make much sense because STL doesn't really serve a major strategic purpose in its network other than relieving MDW (which operationally, is an awful airport), but there's probably more to the story here. Plus, I thought costs at STL were still on the higher side from the building of runway 11/29, but they have apparently been able to get that under control.

All I am trying to do is have an honest conversation. I actually have a great deal of respect for users like Jshank83 who post a lot of thoughtful responses, including the one he did to my comment above. There's no issue here.

Back to the conversation, I will say it will be interesting to see if WN indeed takes over all of D at STL and doubles their gate capacity at BNA, that is potential for two 200+ flight stations fairly close to one another. I wonder what the strategy is here.



Fees have come down a bunch in the last 5 years. Terminal rental rates are some of the lowest in the country. CPE and landing fees I think are pretty middle of the road now but I would have to research those to be sure. I can try to look into it sometime in the next few days.

I’m hoping this leads to more ULCCs adding flights. Like spirit.


Do you think there’s potential for terminal improvements beyond what was previously mentioned? I always thought STL should consolidate all of the non WN carriers on A/B/C into a new singular concourse.
 
User avatar
TWA302
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:17 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:33 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

I fail to see how simple inquiries are trolling, you should be careful before you make such an accusation. I rarely have posted on this thread actually. I can point you to several real trolls if you'd like.

These inquiries are simply wondering why WN would set up STL would be a base, it has nothing to do with STL as a whole. It appears from a distance, a full WN base at STL doesn't make much sense because STL doesn't really serve a major strategic purpose in its network other than relieving MDW (which operationally, is an awful airport), but there's probably more to the story here. Plus, I thought costs at STL were still on the higher side from the building of runway 11/29, but they have apparently been able to get that under control.

All I am trying to do is have an honest conversation. I actually have a great deal of respect for users like Jshank83 who post a lot of thoughtful responses, including the one he did to my comment above. There's no issue here.

Back to the conversation, I will say it will be interesting to see if WN indeed takes over all of D at STL and doubles their gate capacity at BNA, that is potential for two 200+ flight stations fairly close to one another. I wonder what the strategy is here.



Fees have come down a bunch in the last 5 years. Terminal rental rates are some of the lowest in the country. CPE and landing fees I think are pretty middle of the road now but I would have to research those to be sure. I can try to look into it sometime in the next few days.

I’m hoping this leads to more ULCCs adding flights. Like spirit.


Do you think there’s potential for terminal improvements beyond what was previously mentioned? I always thought STL should consolidate all of the non WN carriers on A/B/C into a new singular concourse.


What do you mean by terminal improvements? T1 went through massive remodel that was I think finished in 2013. Do not see the need to add a common terminal when what is available already serves the need for the airlines in T1. T2 will though. WN is adding the new amenities and food options. The baggage claim expanision, etc.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3118
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:47 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

I fail to see how simple inquiries are trolling, you should be careful before you make such an accusation. I rarely have posted on this thread actually. I can point you to several real trolls if you'd like.

These inquiries are simply wondering why WN would set up STL would be a base, it has nothing to do with STL as a whole. It appears from a distance, a full WN base at STL doesn't make much sense because STL doesn't really serve a major strategic purpose in its network other than relieving MDW (which operationally, is an awful airport), but there's probably more to the story here. Plus, I thought costs at STL were still on the higher side from the building of runway 11/29, but they have apparently been able to get that under control.

All I am trying to do is have an honest conversation. I actually have a great deal of respect for users like Jshank83 who post a lot of thoughtful responses, including the one he did to my comment above. There's no issue here.

Back to the conversation, I will say it will be interesting to see if WN indeed takes over all of D at STL and doubles their gate capacity at BNA, that is potential for two 200+ flight stations fairly close to one another. I wonder what the strategy is here.



Fees have come down a bunch in the last 5 years. Terminal rental rates are some of the lowest in the country. CPE and landing fees I think are pretty middle of the road now but I would have to research those to be sure. I can try to look into it sometime in the next few days.

I’m hoping this leads to more ULCCs adding flights. Like spirit.


Do you think there’s potential for terminal improvements beyond what was previously mentioned? I always thought STL should consolidate all of the non WN carriers on A/B/C into a new singular concourse.



Only if the privatization goes thru. A single concourse for T1 would be great but it isn’t needed. No reason to spend money to raise fees when it really won’t do much except make it “nicer”. I’ve always been a function is what matters person. And right now it is functional with extra gates in C to grow. IF they thought they could offset the cost with more income from amenities then maybe.
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:48 pm

TWA302 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:


Fees have come down a bunch in the last 5 years. Terminal rental rates are some of the lowest in the country. CPE and landing fees I think are pretty middle of the road now but I would have to research those to be sure. I can try to look into it sometime in the next few days.

I’m hoping this leads to more ULCCs adding flights. Like spirit.


Do you think there’s potential for terminal improvements beyond what was previously mentioned? I always thought STL should consolidate all of the non WN carriers on A/B/C into a new singular concourse.


What do you mean by terminal improvements? T1 went through massive remodel that was I think finished in 2013. Do not see the need to add a common terminal when what is available already serves the need for the airlines in T1. T2 will though. WN is adding the new amenities and food options. The baggage claim expanision, etc.


No, I don’t mean a singular terminal, I’m suggesting eventually demolishing Concourses A/B/C (but not terminal 1 itself) and replacing it with a new singular concourse that would house all non WN carriers. This would allow for lower operating costs over time by replacing aging infrastructure and for better aircraft flow into D by eliminating the existing C.
 
User avatar
TWA302
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:17 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:09 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

Do you think there’s potential for terminal improvements beyond what was previously mentioned? I always thought STL should consolidate all of the non WN carriers on A/B/C into a new singular concourse.


What do you mean by terminal improvements? T1 went through massive remodel that was I think finished in 2013. Do not see the need to add a common terminal when what is available already serves the need for the airlines in T1. T2 will though. WN is adding the new amenities and food options. The baggage claim expanision, etc.


No, I don’t mean a singular terminal, I’m suggesting eventually demolishing Concourses A/B/C (but not terminal 1 itself) and replacing it with a new singular concourse that would house all non WN carriers. This would allow for lower operating costs over time by replacing aging infrastructure and for better aircraft flow into D by eliminating the existing C.


Probably not. The cost would outweigh the ROI. Don't see it happening in my lifetime.
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:27 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

Do you think there’s potential for terminal improvements beyond what was previously mentioned? I always thought STL should consolidate all of the non WN carriers on A/B/C into a new singular concourse.


What do you mean by terminal improvements? T1 went through massive remodel that was I think finished in 2013. Do not see the need to add a common terminal when what is available already serves the need for the airlines in T1. T2 will though. WN is adding the new amenities and food options. The baggage claim expanision, etc.


No, I don’t mean a singular terminal, I’m suggesting eventually demolishing Concourses A/B/C (but not terminal 1 itself) and replacing it with a new singular concourse that would house all non WN carriers. This would allow for lower operating costs over time by replacing aging infrastructure and for better aircraft flow into D by eliminating the existing C.


I stand by my original comments, but I understand where your thought comes from for one cohesive T1. For many reasons it doesn't make financial sense at STL currently.
First, as reported up above, STL's CPE came down under $9 last year and will likely fall under $8 in 2019. They have made it clear they are working hard to get this down. (For comparison, BNA is just under $7)

STL won't scrap C because it's far bigger than D. D is very narrow and the gate areas are constrained. It was built for Ozark when they were bringing in DC9's holding 100-120 passengers, not fully packed A321's, ala Frontier. C has more space for concessions and has an old FIS facility. Plus, space for an airline lounge near the end. The airport is currently looking at ways to expand the FIS and consolidate it somewhere. Currently international arrivals go into T2. Concourse B isn't huge either. TWA ran most of their turbo props out of B.

What would be nice is to move either United or Delta to C, and leave A with some expansion space for either one.

WN will continue to grow both STL and BNA, but I don't see either getting to 200 daily departures quickly. That would make them larger than where BWI, DAL, PHX currently are, and I don't see that happening.

The advantage STL has (and not saying over any other airport in particular) is that it has space. 20 years ago the airport was handling 30+ million passengers annually. That is why 11/29 was built.
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:19 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
I stand by my original comments


So next time a certain SDF fan comes and trolls the BNA thread, come on by and tell him the same thing. Ok?

Now I'm starting to question your motives here.
 
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symphonicpoet
Posts: 56
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:54 am

As to why to expand in STL, I have to assume it's because you can do so here without negatively affecting CPE. No need to build anything new at all, just lightly update what's here. You need a crew base? No problem. There's plenty of space. There are crew lounges in both C and D. There's a vacant ops center in C. If C and D were connected . . . Maybe not the most convenient, but I don't know why it wouldn't work. All the old hub facilities are still there. Just turn the lights back on. Same reason it was so easy for AA to move from C to D when the roof blew off: everything they needed was already there. Needs a light remodel, at this point, but that was true of virtually every part of the airport. They've been doing a quiet, but effective rolling remodel for the last ten years, more or less. That bit of D is about all that's left. Note: they are also slowly expanding C back into formerly empty gates, so the improvements are far from all for WN. Everyone gets a little. But WN has the biggest local needs and the largest local investment, so they get the most.
TW AA MU JL KE DL UA LOF GJS SKW WN
STL JFK FRA GVA CDG IAD ORD PVG SGN NRT ICN ATL SFO HKG MDW LGA BNA DTW LHR
L1011 MD82 83 88 B737 738 741 744 762 763 772 773 777 A320 A330 E175 C700
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3118
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:35 am

Looks like a 3rd Amazon flight ran today. We will see if it was a one off or if it sticks.
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:08 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
I stand by my original comments


So next time a certain SDF fan comes and trolls the BNA thread, come on by and tell him the same thing. Ok?

Now I'm starting to question your motives here.


I don't go through random threads looking for things to complain about. That's not why we're here. I have no connection to BNA and no reason to go into that thread and start posting comments.

As others have mentioned as well, the growth potential, at minimal cost, is great at STL. WN paid for much of what is today's T2.
With their ability to grow into D, they could expand service quickly.
 
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TWA302
Posts: 624
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:36 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Looks like a 3rd Amazon flight ran today. We will see if it was a one off or if it sticks.


I just placed my Christmas shopping order Saturday morning. That's probably why. :rotfl:
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3118
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:23 am

TWA302 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Looks like a 3rd Amazon flight ran today. We will see if it was a one off or if it sticks.


I just placed my Christmas shopping order Saturday morning. That's probably why. :rotfl:


Turns out it was the plane from Saturday night. It didn’t go on to Ontario like normal. Stayed the day and went to CVG. Makes me wonder if it has an issue.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3118
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:18 am

Got thru LF for August

Over 90%
WN SJC 92%
WN SEA 92%
WN SFO 92%
WN PDX 92%
WN SAN 91%
G4 PIE 91%
WN SMF 90%
WN OAK 90%
WN CHS 90%
G4 PGD 90%


Under 70%
WN DAL 68%
WN FLL 67%
WN MSY 67%
DL CVG 63%

Others of note:
AS SAN 85% (cut Nov)
WN EWR 87% (cut Nov)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
 
pmanni1
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:17 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:42 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Got thru LF for August

Over 90%
WN SJC 92%
WN SEA 92%
WN SFO 92%
WN PDX 92%
WN SAN 91%
G4 PIE 91%
WN SMF 90%
WN OAK 90%
WN CHS 90%
G4 PGD 90%


Under 70%
WN DAL 68%
WN FLL 67%
WN MSY 67%
DL CVG 63%

Others of note:
AS SAN 85% (cut Nov)
WN EWR 87% (cut Nov)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing


Interesting that the highest loads are all to the west coast. WN has competition from AA on LAX so that may have brought that below 90%.
WN is currently at 51 destinations STL: 51 - ATL, AUS, BDL, BNA, BOS, BWI, CHS, CLE, CMH, CUN, DAL, DCA, DEN, DSM, DTW, ECP, FLL, HOU, ICT, LAS, LAX, LGA, LIT, MBJ, MCI, MCO, MDW, MKE, MSP, MSY, OAK, OKC, OMA, PBI, PDX, PHL, PHX, PIT, PNS, PUJ, RDU, RSW, SAN, SAT, SEA, SFO, SJC, SLC, SMF, TPA, TUL

What could they add next? Anything seems possible - IND,MEM,ORF,RIC maybe CVG although I can't imagine 2 carriers could survive on that route.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3118
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:03 pm

pmanni1 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Got thru LF for August

Over 90%
WN SJC 92%
WN SEA 92%
WN SFO 92%
WN PDX 92%
WN SAN 91%
G4 PIE 91%
WN SMF 90%
WN OAK 90%
WN CHS 90%
G4 PGD 90%


Under 70%
WN DAL 68%
WN FLL 67%
WN MSY 67%
DL CVG 63%

Others of note:
AS SAN 85% (cut Nov)
WN EWR 87% (cut Nov)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing


Interesting that the highest loads are all to the west coast. WN has competition from AA on LAX so that may have brought that below 90%.
WN is currently at 51 destinations STL: 51 - ATL, AUS, BDL, BNA, BOS, BWI, CHS, CLE, CMH, CUN, DAL, DCA, DEN, DSM, DTW, ECP, FLL, HOU, ICT, LAS, LAX, LGA, LIT, MBJ, MCI, MCO, MDW, MKE, MSP, MSY, OAK, OKC, OMA, PBI, PDX, PHL, PHX, PIT, PNS, PUJ, RDU, RSW, SAN, SAT, SEA, SFO, SJC, SLC, SMF, TPA, TUL

What could they add next? Anything seems possible - IND,MEM,ORF,RIC maybe CVG although I can't imagine 2 carriers could survive on that route.


JAX is the highest PDEW with no carrier. So I would guess it is on the short list. I could see it getting added for summer. ORF/RIC are next below JAX. Id like to see ABQ come back but I’m not sure it’s numbers warrant that long of a flight add.
 
pmanni1
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:17 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:19 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
pmanni1 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Got thru LF for August

Over 90%
WN SJC 92%
WN SEA 92%
WN SFO 92%
WN PDX 92%
WN SAN 91%
G4 PIE 91%
WN SMF 90%
WN OAK 90%
WN CHS 90%
G4 PGD 90%


Under 70%
WN DAL 68%
WN FLL 67%
WN MSY 67%
DL CVG 63%

Others of note:
AS SAN 85% (cut Nov)
WN EWR 87% (cut Nov)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing


Interesting that the highest loads are all to the west coast. WN has competition from AA on LAX so that may have brought that below 90%.
WN is currently at 51 destinations STL: 51 - ATL, AUS, BDL, BNA, BOS, BWI, CHS, CLE, CMH, CUN, DAL, DCA, DEN, DSM, DTW, ECP, FLL, HOU, ICT, LAS, LAX, LGA, LIT, MBJ, MCI, MCO, MDW, MKE, MSP, MSY, OAK, OKC, OMA, PBI, PDX, PHL, PHX, PIT, PNS, PUJ, RDU, RSW, SAN, SAT, SEA, SFO, SJC, SLC, SMF, TPA, TUL

What could they add next? Anything seems possible - IND,MEM,ORF,RIC maybe CVG although I can't imagine 2 carriers could survive on that route.


JAX is the highest PDEW with no carrier. So I would guess it is on the short list. I could see it getting added for summer. ORF/RIC are next below JAX. Id like to see ABQ come back but I’m not sure it’s numbers warrant that long of a flight add.


Seems like ABQ could fit nicely into the 2pm westward bank. MCI has had it for years and I'm not sure what the connection between those 2 cities is that has kept it around so long.
 
jplatts
Posts: 3225
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:10 pm

pmanni1 wrote:
Seems like ABQ could fit nicely into the 2pm westward bank. MCI has had it for years and I'm not sure what the connection between those 2 cities is that has kept it around so long.


Here are the Q2 2019 PDEW's for ABQ-STL and ABQ-MCI:
ABQ-STL - 46
ABQ-MCI - 70

While ABQ-MCI currently has higher PDEW's than ABQ-STL, there might be enough demand for WN to add ABQ-STL nonstop service since WN would be able to offer connections to some domestic destinations east of the Mississippi River such as CLE, CMH, DTW, BDL, PHL, and PIT that WN doesn't currently serve nonstop from MCI from ABQ through STL if STL-ABQ nonstop service is re-added by WN. In addition to additional connecting opportunities at STL, the PDEW on ABQ-STL is also likely to increase if STL-ABQ nonstop service is re-added by WN.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3118
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:31 am

O&D numbers update 1st and 2nd qtr 2019

Not really sure what is causing the big uptick to DC

2019 1st qtr

Biggest gains (over 2018 1st qtr)
DC +103
West Palm +49
JAX +26
Sacramento +23
Hartford +22

Biggest Loss
Chicago -37
Atlanta -31
Denver -29
Philly -19
LA -19

2019 2nd qtr

Biggest gains (over 2018 2nd qtr)
DC +72
Dallas +32
Hartford +24
Salt Lake +18

Biggest Loss
Atlanta -45
Denver -22
Houston -20
Seattle -17

Largest with no service (year long average)

JAX 75
PBI 60 (only served Saturdays in March)
ORF 56
RIC 45
ABQ 41
TUS 35

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:41 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
O&D numbers update 1st and 2nd qtr 2019

Not really sure what is causing the big uptick to DC

2019 1st qtr

Biggest gains (over 2018 1st qtr)
DC +103
West Palm +49
JAX +26
Sacramento +23
Hartford +22

Biggest Loss
Chicago -37
Atlanta -31
Denver -29
Philly -19
LA -19

2019 2nd qtr

Biggest gains (over 2018 2nd qtr)
DC +72
Dallas +32
Hartford +24
Salt Lake +18

Biggest Loss
Atlanta -45
Denver -22
Houston -20
Seattle -17

Largest with no service (year long average)

JAX 75
PBI 60 (only served Saturdays in March)
ORF 56
RIC 45
ABQ 41
TUS 35

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing


People just love us here in DC ;)

In all seriousness, I'm surprised JAX isn't served yet. That's got to be on WN's short list.
I have to think RIC is as well. RIC-STL would provide a lot of west bound connections and RIC has seen huge passenger growth this year.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3118
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:37 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
O&D numbers update 1st and 2nd qtr 2019

Not really sure what is causing the big uptick to DC

2019 1st qtr

Biggest gains (over 2018 1st qtr)
DC +103
West Palm +49
JAX +26
Sacramento +23
Hartford +22

Biggest Loss
Chicago -37
Atlanta -31
Denver -29
Philly -19
LA -19

2019 2nd qtr

Biggest gains (over 2018 2nd qtr)
DC +72
Dallas +32
Hartford +24
Salt Lake +18

Biggest Loss
Atlanta -45
Denver -22
Houston -20
Seattle -17

Largest with no service (year long average)

JAX 75
PBI 60 (only served Saturdays in March)
ORF 56
RIC 45
ABQ 41
TUS 35

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing


People just love us here in DC ;)

In all seriousness, I'm surprised JAX isn't served yet. That's got to be on WN's short list.
I have to think RIC is as well. RIC-STL would provide a lot of west bound connections and RIC has seen huge passenger growth this year.


Frontier had decent numbers on it this past Winter/Spring. I would think WN would even have better numbers. So I wouldn't be surprised if it shows up at least seasonally on our summer WN schedule.

I should also mention G4 does fly to JAX from BLV seasonally so it isn't unserved from the area. But these numbers don't include BLV O&D numbers.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3118
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:49 pm

UA adding service to ECP for spring break, looks like Saturday only.

Looks like it may only be one flight each way though. Or possibly 2. So nothing major. But nice either way.
 
User avatar
TWA302
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:17 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:09 am

Jshank83 wrote:
UA adding service to ECP for spring break, looks like Saturday only.

Looks like it may only be one flight each way though. Or possibly 2. So nothing major. But nice either way.


This is a huge out of the box for UA. Wow.
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 1912
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:56 am

Jshank83 wrote:
UA adding service to ECP for spring break, looks like Saturday only.

Looks like it may only be one flight each way though. Or possibly 2. So nothing major. But nice either way.

Of all the airlines
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
kipfilet
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:44 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:55 pm

stl07 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
UA adding service to ECP for spring break, looks like Saturday only.

Looks like it may only be one flight each way though. Or possibly 2. So nothing major. But nice either way.

Of all the airlines

Exactly what I thought :lol:
 
flybaby
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:20 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:20 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
...

I should also mention G4 does fly to JAX from BLV seasonally so it isn't unserved from the area. But these numbers don't include BLV O&D numbers.


Yeah, the JAX numbers are a somewhat understated given in that in July G4 carried over 2000 pax total EW to JAX on 3x weekly service. Their flights ended mid-August and will pick back up mid May.

Last year (or more accurately, earlier this year) G4 operated JAX flights year-round. This year they are running them seasonally.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3118
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:12 pm

flybaby wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
...

I should also mention G4 does fly to JAX from BLV seasonally so it isn't unserved from the area. But these numbers don't include BLV O&D numbers.


Yeah, the JAX numbers are a somewhat understated given in that in July G4 carried over 2000 pax total EW to JAX on 3x weekly service. Their flights ended mid-August and will pick back up mid May.

Last year (or more accurately, earlier this year) G4 operated JAX flights year-round. This year they are running them seasonally.


G4 didn't run JAX winter 2018-2019 it ran winter 2017-18. It was off Sept 2018-Jan 2019 and started back up in Feb. But that was earlier than it is starting back up next year. A little surprised it won't run in March. It had over 80% loads March of this year.
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
Posts: 5463
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:23 pm

[quote="jplatts]

"While ABQ-MCI currently has higher PDEW's than ABQ-STL, there might be enough demand for WN to add ABQ-STL nonstop service since WN would be able to offer connections to some domestic destinations east of the Mississippi River such as CLE, CMH, DTW, BDL, PHL, and PIT that WN doesn't currently serve nonstop from MCI from ABQ through STL if STL-ABQ nonstop service is re-added by WN. In addition to additional connecting opportunities at STL, the PDEW on ABQ-STL is also likely to increase if STL-ABQ nonstop service is re-added by WN."

STL-ABQ used to be operated, before the DEN buildup by WN. My thoughts are it would work as an East-STL-ABQ-West route, perhaps with an ABQ-TUS extension with the TUS flight going on to the West Coast. That would kill a few traffic flow problems with ONE flight. Neither ABQ nor TUS are served from STL direct and it "might" work.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3118
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:04 pm

October numbers are out. I really wasn't sure the streak of growth was going to continue in October, we should be good in November and December.

Up 0.4% on the month
Up 2.1% on the year
Cargo up 15.6% on the month!

Deplaned passengers were up 20 passengers. Literally 20 people more than last year.

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... PubRel.pdf
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:09 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
October numbers are out. I really wasn't sure the streak of growth was going to continue in October, we should be good in November and December.

Up 0.4% on the month
Up 2.1% on the year
Cargo up 15.6% on the month!

Deplaned passengers were up 20 passengers. Literally 20 people more than last year.

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... PubRel.pdf


If the numbers remain flat for Nov/Dec, the airport will be just a hair under 16 million.
If they can sustain a modest uptick, they could break that mark, which would be the first time since 2003.

When the dominant carrier has 5% of their fleet idle, that's going to impact things. Hopefully the MAX issues are sorted soon and WN can get them back in the sky. If they do, next year will be very different.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3118
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:37 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
October numbers are out. I really wasn't sure the streak of growth was going to continue in October, we should be good in November and December.

Up 0.4% on the month
Up 2.1% on the year
Cargo up 15.6% on the month!

Deplaned passengers were up 20 passengers. Literally 20 people more than last year.

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... PubRel.pdf


If the numbers remain flat for Nov/Dec, the airport will be just a hair under 16 million.
If they can sustain a modest uptick, they could break that mark, which would be the first time since 2003.

When the dominant carrier has 5% of their fleet idle, that's going to impact things. Hopefully the MAX issues are sorted soon and WN can get them back in the sky. If they do, next year will be very different.


I think November is going to be another relatively flat month. December should be a pretty good pickup. I think it will be close.

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