wjcandee
Posts: 7937
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:58 pm

Thanks for that, MO11!

I guess the delta in capital cost of a used -200 vs a used -300 these days is such that even when you add the conversion cost, the 20-year total cost (capital cost plus anticipated fuel and maintenance) is lower-enough as compared to a -300 that it's worth doing if you have routes that really don't need the extra volume. For some time, the delta in total cost of the -300 converted freighter over the -200 was so minimal that converting the -300 was a no-brainer, because of its flexibility and massively-greater volume (including the big cargo door on the lower deck), in service where it usually cubes-out before it weights-out.
 
ThePinnacleKid
Posts: 533
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:47 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:45 pm

wjcandee wrote:
AV8AJET wrote:
N663GT should be delivered sometime soon to Atlas after cargo conversion. Ex NEO’s originally built for Continental.


Yeah, I keep looking for it to get moving towards the US. It's moving around TPE, which is a clue that it's almost done. Of course, the BCF comes from overseas fully-painted, so 663GT can go straight to induction.


as of now... scheduled for sometime around August 14th-16th to be on the move to the US from TPE
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
MajMattMason
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:58 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:04 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Delta28L wrote:
Is ILN going to be getting any more flights to different cities? is the eight cities served right now going to be the max that amazon expands at ILN?


I think the plan was for Atlas to come in with some flights shortly.


Wasn’t there an issue with Airborne MX having some sort of exclusivity agreement for on field MX at ILN and Atlas refusing to allow them to touch their aircraft. Ended up Atlas not doing any AMZ flights out of ILN the last time and them closing their office.
At least that was the rumor.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7937
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:34 pm

Huh. AMES has done heavy maintenance on the 767-200s that went to Atlas for DHL, and does work for UPS and Delta, the Patriots' aircraft, Len Blavatnik, and numerous other operators. Its subsidiary PEMCO does basically all work on Frontier's aircraft. Not saying this didn't happen, but it's pretty-irrational if it did. Like Premier and Flightstar are/were better providers?
 
User avatar
Acey559
Posts: 1333
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:30 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:36 pm

Atlas definitely flew into ILN last time around. I think it was for a shorter duration that ABX/ATI but I definitely remember seeing them there for at least a little while.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 4350
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:47 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Thanks for that, MO11!

I guess the delta in capital cost of a used -200 vs a used -300 these days is such that even when you add the conversion cost, the 20-year total cost (capital cost plus anticipated fuel and maintenance) is lower-enough as compared to a -300 that it's worth doing if you have routes that really don't need the extra volume. For some time, the delta in total cost of the -300 converted freighter over the -200 was so minimal that converting the -300 was a no-brainer, because of its flexibility and massively-greater volume (including the big cargo door on the lower deck), in service where it usually cubes-out before it weights-out.

Those ex-continental -224s are gonna be beasts. High gross weights and high powered engines, they'll be perfect for moving dense cargo.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7937
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:02 pm

Spacepope wrote:
Those ex-continental -224s are gonna be beasts. High gross weights and high powered engines, they'll be perfect for moving dense cargo.


Thanks for that! I did notice that these were the CO -ERs. Another friend also reminded me that these fill a nice niche between the 757 and the -300. I just had thought that the capital investment and relative operating cost made the -300 a better investment long-term. Sort of like the 737-800 and the 717. Airtran figured out that the 737-700 cost about the same per hour all-in as the 717, but had extra seats that they could choose to sell.

But like I said, if the cost to buy the frame is low enough, it changes the game.

Apparently, Cargojet has a mission in mind for these guys that they are well-suited for.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7937
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:37 pm

So N367AZ is in service. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N367AZ

You all may have seen where ATSG announced that it plans, at Amazon's request, to deliver 6 767-300s this year to it on dry lease instead of 5. It also plans to deliver 4 aircraft to UPS on dry lease by year-end. I see how they are doing the first. I don't see how they are going to do the second, unless they (1) have more than 2 frames already in conversion at TLV; (2) are planning to use Boeing at QPG or TPE; (3) are planning to use IAI/Bedek's facility at MEX; or (4) have a freighter coming off lease or will dry lease them the 767 currently operating for UPS by ABX.

It will be interesting to see!
 
fify
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:05 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:35 pm

N830WE just did first engines test after conversion.
 
MO11
Posts: 1155
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:07 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:36 am

wjcandee wrote:


It was indeed signed for by Amazon on August 6.
 
User avatar
DL757NYC
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:07 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:32 pm

wjcandee wrote:
So N367AZ is scheduled for a test flight tomorrow. It has been in post-conversion maintenance and conformity since she came to ILN from post-conversion paint on 6/18/19.

So she's almost ready for service.

When she goes into service, she will the third of the 5 additional 767-300s that Amazon is scheduled to take this year. (Five more next year.) Ex-NZ, was N930WE.

To that end, the fourth aircraft to be put into service this year would be N354AA, to be N397AZ, which should be on the way back to the States shortly. Figure two weeks for paint and an unknown period for conformity and post-conversion maintenance, so figure the earliest you will see it in service would be late September.

After that, N830WE, which went to TLV on 3/13/19. To be N419AZ. (5th this year.)

N1501P might sneak into service before 12/31/19, but most likely we will see it in January. To be N409AZ. Went to TLV on 5/14/19.


So weird seeing 1501P for another carrier. I remember loading that jet many times before departure. It stood out because it had a different N number than most 767’s
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7937
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:13 am

DL757NYC wrote:
So weird seeing 1501P for another carrier. I remember loading that jet many times before departure. It stood out because it had a different N number than most 767’s


Right? And now, of course, she's going to be in service before the end of the year because Amazon wants 6 this year (and thus 4 next year) instead of 5 this year and 5 next year.
 
MO11
Posts: 1155
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:07 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:12 am

MO11 wrote:
The CargoJet financial statement says two 767-200 are due to enter service following conversion 4Q19 and 2Q20; the existing -200 goes away Feb20. It also says that last month it purchased another -200 (already converted) which is currently under lease to a third party.



I just noticed than N999YV was sold to (somebody) on July 22, placed in trust, then leased back to 21 Air. Connect the dots?
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7937
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:24 am

MO11 wrote:
MO11 wrote:
The CargoJet financial statement says two 767-200 are due to enter service following conversion 4Q19 and 2Q20; the existing -200 goes away Feb20. It also says that last month it purchased another -200 (already converted) which is currently under lease to a third party.


I just noticed than N999YV was sold to (somebody) on July 22, placed in trust, then leased back to 21 Air. Connect the dots?


Absolutely!!

999YV was definitively sold to Cargojet (or a Cargojet-owned entity or equipment trust). I assumed that it was the one you mentioned in the financials as being currently under lease to a third-party. That could mean "currently leased to them but coming off lease in a week so we can use it", or it could mean, "currently leased to somebody who plans to fly it for another 5 years." My only question was whether it was going to continue under lease to 21Air insofar as 21Air apparently was going to take over the Aeromex contract from ABX.

I think that contract realistically requires 2 planes. So if it is leased back to 21Air, then maybe they do have the contract. If it wasn't, maybe theydon't and just gave up and let Cargojet take the frame.

I guess maybe it's the former. Interestingly, both 999YV and 881YV are at Brunswick, GA, presumably at Stambaugh. Stambaugh has worked on Cargojet's 727s and 757s, so there's the connection. Either they are being readied for the Aeromex contract, or they are being readied for export (or one of each). It will be interesting to see.
 
MO11
Posts: 1155
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:07 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:14 pm

CC-CZU was signed for by CAM yesterday.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7937
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:44 pm

MO11 wrote:
CC-CZU was signed for by CAM yesterday.


You know, it's been at ILN for a little over a week and is obviously the next ship to move into conversion, but what's the plan for it?

I was thinking that if they want it for UPS this year, one possibility might be the IAI/Bedek line at MEX, which turned around the Kalitta 767s in 4.5, 4.25 and 3.66 months, respectively, getting faster each time. That's well under the 5-6 months that has recently been typical at TLV. Right now, the DHL conversion (ex-Britannia plane), is in there at MEX, N276DH, and it has been there over 5 months. So, for whatever reason, they're not getting it out as fast as one might expect. Most likely just more work than the other ones.

Still interested in seeing how CAM gets 2 more 767-300s ready and off to UPS in 2019, beyond the two that have been at TLV since March. Maybe they pull N363CM from ABX, given that it is already doing wet-lease work for UPS right now? I guess we will see.
 
Allee
Posts: 553
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 1999 5:47 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:26 am

Here’s a video of AMES bulkhead replacement

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nemZmGZSOpc
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 4350
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:26 am

wjcandee wrote:
MO11 wrote:
CC-CZU was signed for by CAM yesterday.


You know, it's been at ILN for a little over a week and is obviously the next ship to move into conversion, but what's the plan for it?

I was thinking that if they want it for UPS this year, one possibility might be the IAI/Bedek line at MEX, which turned around the Kalitta 767s in 4.5, 4.25 and 3.66 months, respectively, getting faster each time. That's well under the 5-6 months that has recently been typical at TLV. Right now, the DHL conversion (ex-Britannia plane), is in there at MEX, N276DH, and it has been there over 5 months. So, for whatever reason, they're not getting it out as fast as one might expect. Most likely just more work than the other ones.

Still interested in seeing how CAM gets 2 more 767-300s ready and off to UPS in 2019, beyond the two that have been at TLV since March. Maybe they pull N363CM from ABX, given that it is already doing wet-lease work for UPS right now? I guess we will see.


It’s getting late enough in the year that if they are to be ready for peak, they’ll have to be already converted. Anything coming off lease soon? How’s that small 767 operation in South Korea doing?
The last of the famous international playboys
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7937
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:36 am

Allee wrote:
Here’s a video of AMES bulkhead replacement

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nemZmGZSOpc


Cool!! This is a new one on a Star Air plane. I loved the older video when they did it on an ABX airplane prior to having that overhead crane. That new overhead crane is incredible, it can lift an enormous amount and move to anywhere in the hangar practically. So no need to bring in an outside crane and a bunch of people to monitor it. A guy with a joystick handles this new one.

I think AMES is still the only MRO outside of Boeing that can do this particular job.
 
Whiplash6
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:30 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:02 am

Atlas will begin shrinking their amazon lift beginning in September due to lack of crew. Seems they bit off more than they could chew.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7937
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:31 am

Whiplash6 wrote:
Atlas will begin shrinking their amazon lift beginning in September due to lack of crew. Seems they bit off more than they could chew.


Wow. That is big news.

At ABX and ATI, the daily utilization of existing aircraft is up significantly. Is it this increased utilization that Atlas can't do, or are they having trouble staffing the existing flying? That would be crazy, and finally put the lie conclusively to Flynn's constant assertions over the past two years that they were having no trouble staffing their business. The leased aircraft are of course transferable to other carriers on limited notice. I wonder if any consideration is being given by Amazon to doing that with a couple of frames.

But it is not like the other two carriers have a huge surplus of pilots. ATI should have added a total of 6 frames in 2019 for Amazon by the end of the year; it might be a challenge for them to take more, and it seems like ABX is keeping its pilots pretty busy at the moment with the extra Amazon work for its existing fleet, although that may relax some after the Aeromex contract goes to (it is rumoured) 21Air.

I'm assuming that it is the 767 flying that is the issue, which would be real news; the 737 program is a well-known goatrope at the moment, and it is no surprise that it continues to be a mess. Southern has five planes on property, four of which are in service, and they're covering a schedule that can easily be covered with three. I had the impression that additional stations would have been added by now, but it seems like Southern just can't staff additional work.
 
travaz
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:06 pm

Interesting. The lack of crews could be the chink in Amazon's armour. I wonder if this has anything to do with Fed ex dropping thier lift. With almost all of the Air Carriers hiring it has to be a hard row for cargo airlines to hoe. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3132
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:42 pm

travaz wrote:
Interesting. The lack of crews could be the chink in Amazon's armour. I wonder if this has anything to do with Fed ex dropping thier lift. With almost all of the Air Carriers hiring it has to be a hard row for cargo airlines to hoe. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.


FedEx and UPS have no problem attracting pilots, they’re high paying jobs. The middle and bottom feeders than Amazon has chosen to rely on, have a difficult time attracting talent, because the pay is trash.
From my cold, dead hands
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7937
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:01 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
travaz wrote:
Interesting. The lack of crews could be the chink in Amazon's armour. I wonder if this has anything to do with Fed ex dropping thier lift. With almost all of the Air Carriers hiring it has to be a hard row for cargo airlines to hoe. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.


FedEx and UPS have no problem attracting pilots, they’re high paying jobs. The middle and bottom feeders than Amazon has chosen to rely on, have a difficult time attracting talent, because the pay is trash.


ATI and Kalitta have no problem attracting pilots, even though they don't pay people like the Sky Gods get paid. It's the ones with crappy work environments that seem to be having the most trouble.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7937
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:06 pm

travaz wrote:
Interesting. The lack of crews could be the chink in Amazon's armour. I wonder if this has anything to do with Fed ex dropping thier lift. With almost all of the Air Carriers hiring it has to be a hard row for cargo airlines to hoe. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.


I don't see it as an Amazon issue at all. It's an airline issue. There are airlines that are happy for the business and capable of servicing it, and there are ones that are not. Amazon Air has a planned orderly expansion, and Amazon itself has plenty of available channels beyond organic delivery even with FedEx out of the picture.
 
CX747
Posts: 6106
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:52 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Whiplash6 wrote:
Atlas will begin shrinking their amazon lift beginning in September due to lack of crew. Seems they bit off more than they could chew.


Wow. That is big news.

At ABX and ATI, the daily utilization of existing aircraft is up significantly. Is it this increased utilization that Atlas can't do, or are they having trouble staffing the existing flying? That would be crazy, and finally put the lie conclusively to Flynn's constant assertions over the past two years that they were having no trouble staffing their business. The leased aircraft are of course transferable to other carriers on limited notice. I wonder if any consideration is being given by Amazon to doing that with a couple of frames.

But it is not like the other two carriers have a huge surplus of pilots. ATI should have added a total of 6 frames in 2019 for Amazon by the end of the year; it might be a challenge for them to take more, and it seems like ABX is keeping its pilots pretty busy at the moment with the extra Amazon work for its existing fleet, although that may relax some after the Aeromex contract goes to (it is rumoured) 21Air.

I'm assuming that it is the 767 flying that is the issue, which would be real news; the 737 program is a well-known goatrope at the moment, and it is no surprise that it continues to be a mess. Southern has five planes on property, four of which are in service, and they're covering a schedule that can easily be covered with three. I had the impression that additional stations would have been added by now, but it seems like Southern just can't staff additional work.


767 flying has been a boon doggle for them. 737 is indeed a goat rope. 747 fleet is worked hard but goes like clock work. The company is in a birthing pain right now. If it can get through it, you are looking at a 737, 747, 767, 777 freighter operator that has true global reach. Think about the size of their 747 fleet which is 50+. At it's HEIGHT, British Airways ran 57 747-400s in a far more controlled, standardized route fashion. These guys have 747s trotting the globe. Blasting out of JFK on a multi stop to Asia. Then deadheading down to Sydney to do a max weight takeoff off of hazadarous material due into a God forsaken African country at 2 am in the middle of a monsoon.

All of that is being done by guys making no where near what Brown/Purple do. The 747 is an adventure. Great aircraft, experience and something to write home about. 767s into and out of domestic hubs is a different story. Pay issues and growth problems of the 767 are something they need to deal with. I hope the pilots and management can hammer out a deal. If so, they could be a power house. Fumble the Amazon deal and it is a slippery slope down or a hard climb back up the mountain. Staffing a domestic operating, 767F fleet, should not be this difficult.

I say this with good intentions but whatever is going on with the 737 fleet is a disaster. Maybe somebody can step in but those pay rates and monthly hour guarantees are abysmal. To be honest, what Amazon "wants" is something very few qualified pilots are going to swallow. Hours, pay, work/life schedule on the 737 is horrendous. Just look at the requirements and one can see we are dredging the absolute bottom of the pilot ranks or those that may not have the appropriate "seasoning". Is this Atlas's or Amazon's doing? Either way, in my opinion it won't last long as staffing at those rates/hours/requirements is a full blown seven ring circus. Nobody that can jump on with a regional is going to choose that pay/hour combo.

I at times wonder if the Amazon deal actual works with both ABX/ATI and Atlas guys at similar pay rates.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7937
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:26 am

So here's a memory jogger: what did Amazon call the project where Northern Air Cargo was operating a 737 to move cargo around about the same time that Amazon was doing Project Aerosmith with ATSG?

At the time, people noted that Jeff Bezos was a friend of the guy who owned Northern Air Cargo and surmised that they stood a very good possibility of being a significant operator for Amazon. However, the 737 stopped flying its routes, and Amazon Air moved forward with 767s, initially flying pallets with cargo nets on them and later flying some cans. Once they started sorting, the flights into and out of the sorts necessarily flew cans. And that's a brief history of how we got to where we are today.

When Southern got the 737 contract, I was not overwhelmingly surprised, because AAWW owns Southern, and Amazon is a warrant holder in AAWW, so the regulatory issues regarding the 737 are easier if they're at Southern. However, given the givens, it seems like Northern was a potential alternative operator, as was of course Doug. Not to say that Northern isn't presently deeply involved in getting its own house in order to handle the business that it does have, but 737s are in its wheelhouse. It will be interesting to see if Amazon decides to rejigger the 737 operation in light of its current messy state. Atlas said it could get a significant fleet of 737s, which are being provided by GECAS, up and running smoothly in short order, and it's becoming less and less likely that that's going to happen. I've got the Jiffy Pop on the stove.

The answer to the memory twister above is that the initial project, using a single 737 provided and operated by Northern Air Cargo, was called Project Alpha.
 
CX747
Posts: 6106
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:35 am

We may need to dissect a little further.

767F- Atlas needs got to get its house together regarding the union. It may be a great place to work but other forums make it seem less than desirable. IF they worked with the union and hammered out a new deal, would you see issues melt away? We know the union has lost several court appeals due to their current "processes". Do the pilots and the company want to continue that dance? Plenty of people at Eastern thought so and well....... ATI/ABX had it's issues to, with ABX getting its flying reduced due to their actions. Since then, it seems that ATI just plugs and plays as many 767s into the Amazon system as desired. Is that due to a signed contract that made life better?!?!?!?!?!

737F- What on earth is the issue here? Not a hard aircraft to operate, not a hard aircraft to man. The launch seems like we are going to the moon for the first time. As I stated earlier, I don't know where the hour requirements/monthly guarantee/home work life balance came from but it is garbage. Is that Amazon or Atlas? Horrendous pay, no real flying hours to allow for movement to a follow on company, home/work life balance in the toilet. Why would anyone put in for this? I fly a 737! Yeah, with laughable pay, no real ability to gain hours and move to WN, AA etc and no livable life outside of work. Stick to flying the C-208 for another 12 months and get the hours/experience needed to join a JetBlue or Spirit as your first step.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
NemesisKnocks
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:31 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:12 pm

CX747 wrote:

747 fleet is worked hard but goes like clock work.


Perhaps in a parallel universe. But here in this one, it is not immune to the raging dumpster fire of mismanagement that is occurring system wide.
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 4350
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:22 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Whiplash6 wrote:
Atlas will begin shrinking their amazon lift beginning in September due to lack of crew. Seems they bit off more than they could chew.


Wow. That is big news.

At ABX and ATI, the daily utilization of existing aircraft is up significantly. Is it this increased utilization that Atlas can't do, or are they having trouble staffing the existing flying? That would be crazy, and finally put the lie conclusively to Flynn's constant assertions over the past two years that they were having no trouble staffing their business. The leased aircraft are of course transferable to other carriers on limited notice. I wonder if any consideration is being given by Amazon to doing that with a couple of frames.

But it is not like the other two carriers have a huge surplus of pilots. ATI should have added a total of 6 frames in 2019 for Amazon by the end of the year; it might be a challenge for them to take more, and it seems like ABX is keeping its pilots pretty busy at the moment with the extra Amazon work for its existing fleet, although that may relax some after the Aeromex contract goes to (it is rumoured) 21Air.

I'm assuming that it is the 767 flying that is the issue, which would be real news; the 737 program is a well-known goatrope at the moment, and it is no surprise that it continues to be a mess. Southern has five planes on property, four of which are in service, and they're covering a schedule that can easily be covered with three. I had the impression that additional stations would have been added by now, but it seems like Southern just can't staff additional work.

So, could Atlas be the source of the additional ATI airframes for 2019?
The last of the famous international playboys
 
AV8AJET
Posts: 1159
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:10 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:04 pm

[/quote]
So, could Atlas be the source of the additional ATI airframes for 2019?[/quote]

Doubtful, I believe Atlas owns the airplanes they are using for Amazon.
"To fly or not to fly there is no question!"
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7937
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:38 pm

AV8AJET wrote:
So, could Atlas be the source of the additional ATI airframes for 2019?

Doubtful, I believe Atlas owns the airplanes they are using for Amazon.

.
Av8ajet is correct that an AAWW subsidiary owns each of the jets. However, although It would be a big step, Amazon absolutely could move the frames elsewhere. The way the transaction is structured is that Amazon dry-leases the airframes from the owner, which for all 20 is an AAWW subsidiary, usually Titan or Andromeda but also in some cases a single-purpose investment entity that owns the frame (e.g. "MSN123456 LLC"). The leases are for as long as they are, but they are just a dry-lease of the airframe. The operation of the airframe is pursuant to a CMI (Crew, Maintenance, Insurance) agreement between Amazon and Atlas Air. The master CMI agreement is terminable in whole or part for Amazon's convenience on something like 6 months' notice (or it may be 90 days, I forget; 90 days is not unusual). Meaning that Amazon has the right for any reason or no reason to pull the plug on the CMI agreement. So, yes, Amazon has a right to change the operator of any individual aircraft or all the aircraft. And most-likely, regardless of whatever rights there are in the contracts, Atlas and Amazon would negotiate the terms under which one or more frames would be moved.

But Atlas would really have to be shorthanded with pilots or operations people for Amazon to do that. In all cases, what any business wants is for its contractor to just freakin' get the job done as promised.

On the 737s, it's similar but a little different. GECAS is the lessor, and Amazon chose Southern as the operator. So the lessor and operator don't have the same parent company.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7937
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:47 pm

Spacepope wrote:
So, could Atlas be the source of the additional ATI airframes for 2019?


Yeah, some could come over, as noted above, but currently each of the 6 2019 airframes has already been specified and a new A number reserved for 6 specific manufacturer's serial number of 767s.

Could they go beyond the 6 with some from Atlas? Anything is possible, if ATI could staff them. Hard to know whether that would be stretching the ATI pilot ranks a little thin. They already are training new hires regularly, and continuing to promote people to Captain. And their existing aircraft are operating at an increasing tempo, which can take more pilots and/or pilot hours.
 
User avatar
yochai
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:19 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:16 pm

Both N392UP and N830WE were seen in TLV outside the hangar complete with green SCD doing high power engine run ups this week. Test flights should begin in a few weeks if all goes according to plan.
 
User avatar
yochai
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:19 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:18 am

wjcandee wrote:
MO11 wrote:
CC-CZU was signed for by CAM yesterday.


You know, it's been at ILN for a little over a week and is obviously the next ship to move into conversion, but what's the plan for it?

I was thinking that if they want it for UPS this year, one possibility might be the IAI/Bedek line at MEX, which turned around the Kalitta 767s in 4.5, 4.25 and 3.66 months, respectively, getting faster each time. That's well under the 5-6 months that has recently been typical at TLV. Right now, the DHL conversion (ex-Britannia plane), is in there at MEX, N276DH, and it has been there over 5 months. So, for whatever reason, they're not getting it out as fast as one might expect. Most likely just more work than the other ones.

Still interested in seeing how CAM gets 2 more 767-300s ready and off to UPS in 2019, beyond the two that have been at TLV since March. Maybe they pull N363CM from ABX, given that it is already doing wet-lease work for UPS right now? I guess we will see.


ANA Cargo B767-300BCF JA8356 is ferrying HND-ANC-ILN, could this be the next UPS aircraft?
 
User avatar
Harvestman
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 2:48 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:00 pm

A quick comment on why AMZ isn't using anything larger than a 767 at the moment: compared to DHL, AMZ is *much* more standardized in terms of ULD usage. AAX and LAY cans for the decks, DQFs for the bellies, and that's it. Until late last year it was just AAXs and DQFs (us DHL ramp guys setting up for AMZ operations on Sunday mornings were told that the reloads didn't have a setup procedure for LAYs yet). To my knowledge there are exactly zero "big cans" in AMZ's system. Unless they can pull a couple hundred of them out of thin air, it would be pretty wasteful to utilize an aircraft that they can't use to its fullest potential.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7937
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:49 pm

yochai wrote:
ANA Cargo B767-300BCF JA8356 is ferrying HND-ANC-ILN, could this be the next UPS aircraft?


Funny, I was wondering the same thing, because it is already-converted. It's pretty-old to be starting off a new lease with an airline. But never say never with CAM.

It could also be that ANA is sending the aircraft to ILN for some kind of maintenance, like rear bulkhead replacement or whatever. I guess we will see.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7937
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:39 am

Harvestman wrote:
A quick comment on why AMZ isn't using anything larger than a 767 at the moment: compared to DHL, AMZ is *much* more standardized in terms of ULD usage. AAX and LAY cans for the decks, DQFs for the bellies, and that's it. Until late last year it was just AAXs and DQFs (us DHL ramp guys setting up for AMZ operations on Sunday mornings were told that the reloads didn't have a setup procedure for LAYs yet). To my knowledge there are exactly zero "big cans" in AMZ's system. Unless they can pull a couple hundred of them out of thin air, it would be pretty wasteful to utilize an aircraft that they can't use to its fullest potential.


That's a very-astute observation. Originally, Amazon used military pallets everywhere, no cans. When they started gearing up to sort at DHL at CVG, they introduced cans. They kept military pallets on most flights that did not go through a sorting hub, at least while they expanded their "fleet" of cans. I'm not sure if they are still using some military pallets for flights that don't go through a sorting hub, but such pallets would give them some flexibility to build them in a way that would maximize the use of a larger aircraft. Nevertheless your point is very-well-taken. Further, it would make sense that a larger aircraft would go through a hub rather than bypass it, and would therefore need cans, so back to your original point. Also, given that they are going to increase sorting once the ability to do that comes online, what you are saying makes even more sense.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2104
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:50 am

Pallet loads need to be wrapped (dependent on WX), but not cans... correct? Using only cans simplifies that equation.
 
User avatar
Harvestman
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 2:48 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:11 am

WPvsMW wrote:
Pallet loads need to be wrapped (dependent on WX), but not cans... correct? Using only cans simplifies that equation.


Not sure about AMZ, but non-waterproof cans at DHL are wrapped in inclement weather. Newer "yellow nets" are more watertight and were developed in response to plastic wrap creating FOD problems.

And yes, Amazon does still own a large fleet of metal pallets (or "cookie sheets"). I believe they have moved away from leasing cans as their operations have expanded, but until recently they were leasing DQFs from ACL Airshop. When I first started at DHL a couple of years ago, AMZ borrowed some of our smaller cans as needed (we were, and are, not allowed to use AMZ cans under any circumstances) but it has been a while since I've seen any DHL cans in their operation.
 
vilamparithi
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:37 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:44 pm

wjcandee wrote:
yochai wrote:
ANA Cargo B767-300BCF JA8356 is ferrying HND-ANC-ILN, could this be the next UPS aircraft?


Funny, I was wondering the same thing, because it is already-converted. It's pretty-old to be starting off a new lease with an airline. But never say never with CAM.

It could also be that ANA is sending the aircraft to ILN for some kind of maintenance, like rear bulkhead replacement or whatever. I guess we will see.



JA8356 has been sitting there since it landed. It was originally intended to go to SBD and ended up diverting to ILN. ILN has been pretty busy these days. HL8319 from Air Incheon (their only 767) landed a few days ago and is currently in shop.
 
CoThG
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:24 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:28 am

Teamsters 1224 lost the Atlas arbitration today. Now the fun begins! Just in time for peak season!!! Bezos better tell Purchase to pay up if they expect any wheels to turn for the holidays.
 
Whiplash6
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:30 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:20 am

CoThG wrote:
Teamsters 1224 lost the Atlas arbitration today. Now the fun begins! Just in time for peak season!!! Bezos better tell Purchase to pay up if they expect any wheels to turn for the holidays.

Yeah right. Because the pilots “have em right where we want em” now. Get real, dude.
 
CoThG
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:24 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:49 am

Whiplash6 wrote:
CoThG wrote:
Teamsters 1224 lost the Atlas arbitration today. Now the fun begins! Just in time for peak season!!! Bezos better tell Purchase to pay up if they expect any wheels to turn for the holidays.

Yeah right. Because the pilots “have em right where we want em” now. Get real, dude.


It is real.... dude. The 1224 pilots have Bezos right where they want him. Unless the real "Prime Air" pilots at ATI come to the rescue.
Last edited by CoThG on Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Whiplash6
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:30 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:56 am

CoThG wrote:
Whiplash6 wrote:
CoThG wrote:
Teamsters 1224 lost the Atlas arbitration today. Now the fun begins! Just in time for peak season!!! Bezos better tell Purchase to pay up if they expect any wheels to turn for the holidays.

Yeah right. Because the pilots “have em right where we want em” now. Get real, dude.


It is real.... dude. The 1224 pilots have Bezos right where they want them. Unless the real "Prime Air" pilots at ATI come to the rescue.

You couldn’t be further from right than you are now. 1224 was neutered as soon as the injunction was decided. The leverage is all in the hands of the company. You really think this 4th quarter is going to be any different than the last. Keep in mind that many have made that very statement before every 4th quarter for the past 5 years. You’re
Delusional. Snap out of it.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2104
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:57 am

Doesn't AMZ have options, e.g., 5X and USPS. Also, the AMZ/FX international contract remains in force.
 
CoThG
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:24 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:09 am

WPvsMW wrote:
Doesn't AMZ have options, e.g., 5X and USPS. Also, the AMZ/FX international contract remains in force.


Other contractors are already maxed out. Atlas and ABX pilots working to rule will cripple Amazon and force Bezos to tell Purchase and Hete to pay up.
 
CoThG
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:24 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:10 am

Whiplash6 wrote:
CoThG wrote:
Whiplash6 wrote:
Yeah right. Because the pilots “have em right where we want em” now. Get real, dude.


It is real.... dude. The 1224 pilots have Bezos right where they want them. Unless the real "Prime Air" pilots at ATI come to the rescue.

You couldn’t be further from right than you are now. 1224 was neutered as soon as the injunction was decided. The leverage is all in the hands of the company. You really think this 4th quarter is going to be any different than the last. Keep in mind that many have made that very statement before every 4th quarter for the past 5 years. You’re
Delusional. Snap out of it.


ABX has already went out on strike and the pilots are chomping at the bit to do it again.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7937
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:28 am

vilamparithi wrote:
JA8356 has been sitting there since it landed. It was originally intended to go to SBD and ended up diverting to ILN. ILN has been pretty busy these days. HL8319 from Air Incheon (their only 767) landed a few days ago and is currently in shop.


Interesting to see a diversion go further East from its original destination. Must be a reason.

That Air Incheon bird, as I'm sure you know, was converted by CAM and leased to them. (Was N7375A, delivered to Air Incheon on 4/9/18.) Guess it's home to ILN for a lookover.

It seems like ILN is so busy that at least one 767 has been sent for service at AMES' subsidiary PEMCO in TPA (currently N791AX is there, along with long-term visitor N741AX), and ATSG has continued to occasionally outsource some HMVs to GSO (currently N317CM is there).

And I assume that N354AA is going to need some work at ILN when it gets back from paint at LandLocked Aviation at CWF, which should be in the next few days, before it's put in service as N397AZ.
Last edited by wjcandee on Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7937
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:45 am

CoThG wrote:
Whiplash6 wrote:
CoThG wrote:

It is real.... dude. The 1224 pilots have Bezos right where they want them. Unless the real "Prime Air" pilots at ATI come to the rescue.

You couldn’t be further from right than you are now. 1224 was neutered as soon as the injunction was decided. The leverage is all in the hands of the company. You really think this 4th quarter is going to be any different than the last. Keep in mind that many have made that very statement before every 4th quarter for the past 5 years. You’re
Delusional. Snap out of it.


ABX has already went out on strike and the pilots are chomping at the bit to do it again.


ABX has no basis to do it and would be immediately-enjoined. It would be a shame if they do, because the increased Amazon flying (on their current fleet) is preventing furloughs resulting from the contracts that are going away.

Atlas is already enjoined, as I recall. Now they and Southern must integrate the pilot groups in accordance with the provisions and schedules that they agreed to in their CBAs. Rather uncharacteristically, 1224 is opposing doing things in compliance with the CBA, and the courts are slowly-but-surely holding them to the terms of the agreement. I understand the union's strategy; it's just that the union's scorched-earth policy is burdened by the fact that courts can take a long time to resolve things, and the trail of probable losses by the Union is going to get a little longer over months or years before there is an agreement. But they didn't give an inch, right? And if that's what the pilot group as a whole wants to do, then they are absolutely-entitled to spend their money on legal fees and avail themselves of every possible legal tactic and opportunity. And their lawyer is an excellent guy who will happily fight every losing battle to the absolute end. The only concern I have, and it's really none of my business, is that in some unions, the louder agitators drive the action, and the guys who just want to come in to work every day are afraid to speak up. They can look at the kind of crap that's being flung at guys who work in a place like ATI where they're treated with respect and most folks are basically happy, and they don't want those guns aimed at them.

This CoThG guy is so far off-base that I'm assuming that he's a troll.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos