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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:38 am

Spacepope wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Interesting mid-Peak development: ABX sent Amazon-leased N749AX today (12/11) to GSO. That's where ABX has been sending a lot of its aircraft recently for overhaul (at HAECO Americas, formerly TIMCO). The last C-check on this aircraft was 1.5 years ago, and they generally go in about every 2 years, so it's interesting that it would go in now, in the middle of Peak. I'm assuming that its higher recent level of utilization mandated that move, which one otherwise wouldn't plan to have happen in the middle of Peak. Indeed, both Atlas and the ATSG carriers had been moving their aircraft through HMVs on a regular basis outside of Peak in an apparent plan to have them all available for Peak.

The ATSG carriers generally have AMES service their aircraft at ILN, but 7 out of 18 HMVs in the past 2 years for ABX have been done by HAECO at GSO, presumably because ILN is buried in work, including these days work for Atlas, Delta and United on their 767s.


Maybe for a quickie? Looks like it had an HMV 18 months ago.

In any case, ABX has plenty of 762 spares they can pull on to fill in.


So N749AX was in and out of GSO in 12 hours. So who knows what it was there for. Not the big deal I thought it was.
 
Fex180
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:16 pm

N737KT flew SNN-PWM last night. Currently sitting on the GA ramp at PWM and still in Pegasus livery. Is it still being transferred to Amazon?
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:34 pm

Fex180 wrote:
N737KT flew SNN-PWM last night. Currently sitting on the GA ramp at PWM and still in Pegasus livery. Is it still being transferred to Amazon?


Looks like that's an IAI conversion. So far all the GECAS conversions going to Amazon have been done in the Far East. I'd be surprised if this one is going to Amazon.
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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:24 pm

N409AZ (formerly N1501P, an ex-Delta aircraft) is scheduled for a test flight today ILN-ILN. Maybe CAM is going to try to put it in service for Amazon before 12/31/19, as had been planned. We'll see. That would be the sixth CAM conversion to Amazon in 2019, and would leave 4 more in 2020 from Amazon's expansion order of 10 additional dry-leased 767-300s from CAM.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:55 pm

wjcandee wrote:
N409AZ (formerly N1501P, an ex-Delta aircraft) is scheduled for a test flight today ILN-ILN. Maybe CAM is going to try to put it in service for Amazon before 12/31/19, as had been planned. We'll see. That would be the sixth CAM conversion to Amazon in 2019, and would leave 4 more in 2020 from Amazon's expansion order of 10 additional dry-leased 767-300s from CAM.


It's out and flying, but not under a carrier callsign. Conformity has typically taken about 5 weeks, so to be done before 12/31 does seem quite optimistic. They would really have to push. And paint takes 2 weeks, although they could Frankenfly it for a while if they really wanted to.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:25 am

wjcandee wrote:
WP: There are a lot of things that get baked into the pie. Dry-leasing gives Amazon control over the frames and the ability to move the operation of one or more of them to another carrier through a termination-for-convenience clause in the CMI agreement, which one can exercise if the carrier, like Atlas, isn't getting the job done. The dry-lease also really makes the whole thing financially-viable for the lessor/operator. That is, Atlas can secure a firm commitment from Amazon for X years of dry-leasing the aircraft, and finance the purchase and conversion off of that commitment, but give Amazon the flexibility, which it would be insane not to want, of moving the aircraft if, as it turns out, the carrier isn't operating satisfactorily. The arrangement puts the capital risk on Amazon, not the operator, and the performance risk onto the operator. Lots more aspects of this, but those are probably the primary ones.


wjc, thanks for the detailed answer, using a financial perspective based in risk management rather than cost per ton mile. Very interesting.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:11 am

WPvsMW wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
WP: There are a lot of things that get baked into the pie. Dry-leasing gives Amazon control over the frames and the ability to move the operation of one or more of them to another carrier through a termination-for-convenience clause in the CMI agreement, which one can exercise if the carrier, like Atlas, isn't getting the job done. The dry-lease also really makes the whole thing financially-viable for the lessor/operator. That is, Atlas can secure a firm commitment from Amazon for X years of dry-leasing the aircraft, and finance the purchase and conversion off of that commitment, but give Amazon the flexibility, which it would be insane not to want, of moving the aircraft if, as it turns out, the carrier isn't operating satisfactorily. The arrangement puts the capital risk on Amazon, not the operator, and the performance risk onto the operator. Lots more aspects of this, but those are probably the primary ones.


wjc, thanks for the detailed answer, using a financial perspective based in risk management rather than cost per ton mile. Very interesting.


Thanks for the thanks! Glad it was helpful!
 
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1337Delta764
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:55 pm

Looks like PDX-PHX on Atlas is no more according to FlightAware. That is a bummer since it allowed One-Day Prime deliveries from the Portland area FCs (Amazon will now have to use UPS Next Day Air if they want to ship One-Day from there). Looks like we only have CVG and ILN right now.
 
MO11
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:05 pm

Spacepope wrote:
Fex180 wrote:
N737KT flew SNN-PWM last night. Currently sitting on the GA ramp at PWM and still in Pegasus livery. Is it still being transferred to Amazon?


Looks like that's an IAI conversion. So far all the GECAS conversions going to Amazon have been done in the Far East. I'd be surprised if this one is going to Amazon.


Add this to the mystery mix: it was sold on Friday to Jetran.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:23 pm

Well, Jetran is Spectre's parent, and has been acting as the owner and lessor in a few transactions recently. eg Swiftair (spain) 757 conversions. Maybe this is just some kind of beancounter-driven transfer but not substantive.
 
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yochai
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:26 pm

Apparently IAI is having a hard time getting the 737-800BDSF certified by the FAA, this along with the other 738 prototype N916SC (now enroute to PWM via SNN) as well are being stored until IAI Bedek will be able to certify them as the are short of space at their TLV facility.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:25 am

Thanks, Yochai! Very interesting, and I pulled up a few articles about IAI having that challenge.

On another note, do your sources have any info on what's up with N276DH, which is being converted by IAI in MEX? It has been there 9 months plus 10 days, more than double the time it was taking them to do other conversions at MEX. It looked like it was finally moving around the airport 2 months ago, I assumed for paint, and yet it still sits. Damaged in conversion? Maintenance record difficulties? Latent defects discovered requiring engineering and approvals? Its pedigree isn't particularly hideous, not nearly as sketchy as some of the other 767 conversions we have seen in the past 3 years, so I'm curious what the source is of the delay.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:33 am

So I saw an interesting article in the WSJ tonight about Amazon banning 3rd party Prime sellers from using FedEx Ground for now because its performance during Peak hasn't been up to par. (FedEx Express is not affected by the ban.) https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazon-blo ... _lead_pos3 [Amazon itself of course doesn't use either service anymore, but some Marketplace Prime sellers do.]

Of interest to us here is that the Amazon-operated network is reported by ShipMatrix, overall, to be more-reliable than either FedEx or UPS so far in Peak. There are lots of ways to dice the data, I'm sure, so such a big picture result doesn't tell you a lot of important things, like how painful some of the service failures are or aren't. (I.e. if a FedEx Ground shipment is a week late and an Amazon shipment is a day late, each gets recorded as a service failure but one is waaaaay more significant than the other, and the ShipMatrix data doesn't capture that. Amazon would have that data, and they're not telling.) The article reports Amazon in-house delivery 93.7 percent on-time overall in Peak, UPS 92.7 (nationwide and not just on Amazon), and FedEx 90.3. That couple of percentage points is significant, but I'm thinking that it hides even-more-serious issues at FedEx Ground (like being many days late, not just one).
 
USAirKid
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:00 am

wjcandee wrote:

The article reports Amazon in-house delivery 93.7 percent on-time overall in Peak, UPS 92.7 (nationwide and not just on Amazon), and FedEx 90.3.


I’d be really curious to know what the break down is between FedEx Ground and FedEx Express. In my experience Express is much more solid than Ground.
 
Dash8Driver16
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:18 am

Alaska’s 73F’s were grounded for a few days and now are operating with reduced payload due to IAI conversion problems with 9G bulkhead.....this can add to the Amazon 738 issues.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:31 am

Dash8Driver16 wrote:
Alaska’s 73F’s were grounded for a few days and now are operating with reduced payload due to IAI conversion problems with 9G bulkhead.....this can add to the Amazon 738 issues.

Howso? iAI didn’t do the Amazon conversions, they are all BCFs.
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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:39 am

And N409AZ went into service tonight (12/17) on a revenue flight from ILN-ONT. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N409AZ

Formerly DL N1501P. Delivered 11/1990 to Gulf Air. DL acquired in 1997. LN 334.

IAI threw some not-well-matched white paint over the green sheet metal work before shipping her out. Rudder still has some of the DL widget on it, but the rest of the tail is blue.

Got to hand it to CAM; they got it into service in FY2019. So that's six for Amazon this year. Four coming next year.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:06 am

wjcandee wrote:
And N409AZ went into service tonight (12/17) on a revenue flight from ILN-ONT. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N409AZ

Formerly DL N1501P. Delivered 11/1990 to Gulf Air. DL acquired in 1997. LN 334.

IAI threw some not-well-matched white paint over the green sheet metal work before shipping her out. Rudder still has some of the DL widget on it, but the rest of the tail is blue.

Got to hand it to CAM; they got it into service in FY2019. So that's six for Amazon this year. Four coming next year.

Does it also still have the blue on the lower part of the fuselage?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:09 am

USAirKid wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
And N409AZ went into service tonight (12/17) on a revenue flight from ILN-ONT. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N409AZ

Formerly DL N1501P. Delivered 11/1990 to Gulf Air. DL acquired in 1997. LN 334.

IAI threw some not-well-matched white paint over the green sheet metal work before shipping her out. Rudder still has some of the DL widget on it, but the rest of the tail is blue.

Got to hand it to CAM; they got it into service in FY2019. So that's six for Amazon this year. Four coming next year.


Does it also still have the blue on the lower part of the fuselage?


Sure does. Imagine the DL livery with the Delta titles gone and the non-rudder part of the tail painted blue. And non-matching white where you can imagine the green stuff would be post-conversion. That's what it looks like for the moment.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:37 pm

Looks like Amazon has pulled in another 737 operator.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.co ... 1576621801
Amazon. com Inc. is expanding its domestic airfreight operation, hiring low-cost carrier Sun Country Airlines to operate 10 Boeing Co. cargo jets to bolster next-day shipping.


I wonder how long Southern will be in the mix...
 
travaz
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:25 am

More info in this thread:
viewtopic.php?p=21865121#p21865121
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:33 am

I'm glad to see they're not standing by idly while Southern continues to struggle to staff the existing 5 aircraft.

Amazon has 15 more coming from GECAS, so unless they wanted to just pull the plug on the upcoming leases and pay whatever penalties would be associated with such a termination, they had to do something. I would have laid even money that they would have punted on this highly-challenged program, but I guess they're going to see how it works with a hopefully-more-reliable operator.

I always wondered whether it made sense to run a 2-pilot aircraft (i.e. same number as a 767) that carries only 11 A-2 cans, but I guess the answer for them has been determined to be "yes".

Mesa was one rumoured candidate to fly 737-800s for Amazon and/or 737-400s for DHL, but that never seemed to materialize. We then heard talk of Swift.

Sun Country currently operates 737-800s and seems to manage to do so in a reasonably-reliable fashion. This will be interesting to watch.
 
MO11
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:39 am

wjcandee wrote:
And N409AZ went into service tonight (12/17) on a revenue flight from ILN-ONT. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N409AZ

Formerly DL N1501P. Delivered 11/1990 to Gulf Air. DL acquired in 1997. LN 334.

IAI threw some not-well-matched white paint over the green sheet metal work before shipping her out. Rudder still has some of the DL widget on it, but the rest of the tail is blue.

No paperwork on this one. Must be a wet-lease.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:40 am

travaz wrote:
More info in this thread:
viewtopic.php?p=21865121#p21865121


I was going to suggest to the mods that that thread come here, but I decided against it because it's just full of the usual useless commentary from the usual APC-like posters: "It's a whipsaw!!", "They should have to get their own certificate!", "They don't pay 'their' pilots enough!" "They hire bottom-of-the-barrel desperate carriers!!" This adds nothing, and we don't need that in our thread here.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:45 am

MO11 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
And N409AZ went into service tonight (12/17) on a revenue flight from ILN-ONT. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N409AZ

Formerly DL N1501P. Delivered 11/1990 to Gulf Air. DL acquired in 1997. LN 334.

IAI threw some not-well-matched white paint over the green sheet metal work before shipping her out. Rudder still has some of the DL widget on it, but the rest of the tail is blue.

No paperwork on this one. Must be a wet-lease.


Interesting. The operational spares at the ATSG carriers don't normally bear an "Amazon" suffix like they do at Atlas (vis. 360CM, 255CM, 376AN). And CAM was supposed to deliver 5 763s for dry-lease to Amazon this year and 5 next year, until Amazon changed it months ago to 6 this year and 4 next year. This would be the 6th.

I wonder if they were just so eager to get it into service for Peak that they're operating it as a charter or wet-lease for now until they catch up the paperwork.
 
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1337Delta764
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:49 am

Looks like Amazon is now operating SEA-PHX via ATI. I just got a shipment from Kent, WA that shipped from there.
 
travaz
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:39 am

wjcandee wrote:
travaz wrote:
More info in this thread:
viewtopic.php?p=21865121#p21865121


I was going to suggest to the mods that that thread come here, but I decided against it because it's just full of the usual useless commentary from the usual APC-like posters: "It's a whipsaw!!", "They should have to get their own certificate!", "They don't pay 'their' pilots enough!" "They hire bottom-of-the-barrel desperate carriers!!" This adds nothing, and we don't need that in our thread here.



Thanks for not asking to move the thread into this one. It only took me a few hours to unsubscribe from the SY thread. This thread is what Anet used to be like. The other thread is the way Anet is today. :banghead:
 
jbs2886
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:45 am

travaz wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
travaz wrote:
More info in this thread:
viewtopic.php?p=21865121#p21865121


I was going to suggest to the mods that that thread come here, but I decided against it because it's just full of the usual useless commentary from the usual APC-like posters: "It's a whipsaw!!", "They should have to get their own certificate!", "They don't pay 'their' pilots enough!" "They hire bottom-of-the-barrel desperate carriers!!" This adds nothing, and we don't need that in our thread here.



Thanks for not asking to move the thread into this one. It only took me a few hours to unsubscribe from the SY thread. This thread is what Anet used to be like. The other thread is the way Anet is today. :banghead:


100% spot on. I started reading it, then came here immediately for actual facts.

To the topic, as far as I understand SY will have 10. Presumably Southern will keep the 5 existing aircraft and that leaves 5 aircraft not (publicly) placed?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:47 am

travaz wrote:
Thanks for not asking to move the thread into this one. It only took me a few hours to unsubscribe from the SY thread. This thread is what Anet used to be like. The other thread is the way Anet is today. :banghead:


You made me smile. I always enjoy checking this thread and I'm glad that our group of participants is such a cordial, interesting bunch!
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:04 am

jbs2886 wrote:
To the topic, as far as I understand SY will have 10. Presumably Southern will keep the 5 existing aircraft and that leaves 5 aircraft not (publicly) placed?


That would seem to be an accurate understanding. No reason to pull anything from Southern before Sun Country can prove itself. PITA for Amazon to have to go the whole warrant route to set things up with Sun Country, though. AAWW had a golden opportunity if it made a real effort to fix its labor issues and hire sufficient pilots. They were set to capture a whole new fleet of 20 aircraft and maybe more, just because it was more-logical for Amazon to utilize a company in which it already had the warrant setup in place. But like that line from "Casino", with AAWW starring as Nicky Santoro: "It should've been perfect. ... But in the end, we f-cked it all up."

Leaving the remaining five unannounced leaves a little incentive to Southern to get its act together and compete for them. Just like pulling two of the Andromeda aircraft from Atlas and sending them to ATI does for Atlas.

The AAWW shareholders should be screaming for heads to roll and be placed on sticks outside headquarters as a warning to future executives... But who knows?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:11 am

USAirKid wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

The article reports Amazon in-house delivery 93.7 percent on-time overall in Peak, UPS 92.7 (nationwide and not just on Amazon), and FedEx 90.3.


I’d be really curious to know what the break down is between FedEx Ground and FedEx Express. In my experience Express is much more solid than Ground.


I would tend to think that that FedEx number reflects a much-higher reliability by Express, and a much lower reliability by Ground/Home-Delivery. I keep hearing how much of a mess Ground is in certain parts of the country. And we're not even into the Final Push.
 
tys777
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:18 am

wjcandee wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

The article reports Amazon in-house delivery 93.7 percent on-time overall in Peak, UPS 92.7 (nationwide and not just on Amazon), and FedEx 90.3.


I’d be really curious to know what the break down is between FedEx Ground and FedEx Express. In my experience Express is much more solid than Ground.


I would tend to think that that FedEx number reflects a much-higher reliability by Express, and a much lower reliability by Ground/Home-Delivery. I keep hearing how much of a mess Ground is in certain parts of the country. And we're not even into the Final Push.


UPS and USPS service is a mess as well. I got a blizzard 3 weeks ago that is still jacking with my service. Lots of prime shipments that are taking 4 days to make it from the MSP distribution center to me two hours north in DLH. Meanehile, my target 2 day shipments are running fine. Heck, hasn't snowed in a week and somehow my mail didn't make it to me yesterday.

Even had UPS running Sunday deliveries around here. Will be interesting to see what final push looks like for all of the providers.

Side note: this is one of my favorite threads here. Lots of good information about the Amazon operation and cargo logistics in general.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:51 am

tys777 wrote:

Side note: this is one of my favorite threads here. Lots of good information about the Amazon operation and cargo logistics in general.


As an active participant, that makes me very happy to hear!

(Also interesting to hear how things are going in your neck of the woods during Peak.)
 
USAirKid
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:10 am

wjcandee wrote:
Amazon has 15 more coming from GECAS, so unless they wanted to just pull the plug on the upcoming leases and pay whatever penalties would be associated with such a termination, they had to do something. I would have laid even money that they would have punted on this highly-challenged program, but I guess they're going to see how it works with a hopefully-more-reliable operator.


I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon just parked them for a while, or put them out on short term leases with other operators. They've been leasing the retail space of a building here in Seattle for well over a year, without any actual use. (Its rumored that it was going to be a large Amazon Go! store, but they changed those plans.) Amazon is usually a very fiscally prudent company, but for newer ventures they'll throw money around and be willing to lose it.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:20 am

From the weird and interesting shipping strategies. One of my subscribe and save packages took a different route. Usually the package goes through Kent, WA then gets directly injected into the delivering post office by Amazon's contractors. In this case Amazon inserted it into the Seattle, WA Network Distribution Center. I'm wondering if thats because Amazon's sorting facility is overloaded, or perhaps they've hit capacity on the truck that is going directly to the DDU.

Also just to report from what other people have said, in general it seems that USPS and UPS have been performing well for med delivering in Seattle. I haven't had any AMZL deliveries lately. Finally, one of the FedEx Ground packages I had was supposed to be delivered on Friday, then they put it on the truck to deliver on Sunday, and finally got it delivered on Monday..

That being said, I have two returns that are going via USPS. One was definitely picked up yesterday, but it hasn't shown up in tracking. The other I dropped at the deadline today, and it also hasn't shown up in tracking. I wonder if they're a bit slow in inducting prepaid return packages.

And to chime in with everyone else. This has been my favorite airliners thread for years. Thank you all for almost another year of interesting conversation.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:02 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
travaz wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

I was going to suggest to the mods that that thread come here, but I decided against it because it's just full of the usual useless commentary from the usual APC-like posters: "It's a whipsaw!!", "They should have to get their own certificate!", "They don't pay 'their' pilots enough!" "They hire bottom-of-the-barrel desperate carriers!!" This adds nothing, and we don't need that in our thread here.



Thanks for not asking to move the thread into this one. It only took me a few hours to unsubscribe from the SY thread. This thread is what Anet used to be like. The other thread is the way Anet is today. :banghead:


100% spot on. I started reading it, then came here immediately for actual facts.

To the topic, as far as I understand SY will have 10. Presumably Southern will keep the 5 existing aircraft and that leaves 5 aircraft not (publicly) placed?


At the end of the day, SY is going to struggle to staff those airplanes just as badly as Southern is. Perhaps worse, as at least Southern knows how the operation runs day to day.
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:54 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
travaz wrote:


Thanks for not asking to move the thread into this one. It only took me a few hours to unsubscribe from the SY thread. This thread is what Anet used to be like. The other thread is the way Anet is today. :banghead:


100% spot on. I started reading it, then came here immediately for actual facts.

To the topic, as far as I understand SY will have 10. Presumably Southern will keep the 5 existing aircraft and that leaves 5 aircraft not (publicly) placed?


At the end of the day, SY is going to struggle to staff those airplanes just as badly as Southern is. Perhaps worse, as at least Southern knows how the operation runs day to day.

Care to elaborate a bit more?

From the outside looking in, Sun Country doesn’t seem to have any issues running 738s on dedicated routes day after day. I also haven’t heard of labor issues there as toxic as at Atlas/southern. Is their pay just as bad?
The last of the famous international playboys
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:05 pm

Spacepope wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

100% spot on. I started reading it, then came here immediately for actual facts.

To the topic, as far as I understand SY will have 10. Presumably Southern will keep the 5 existing aircraft and that leaves 5 aircraft not (publicly) placed?


At the end of the day, SY is going to struggle to staff those airplanes just as badly as Southern is. Perhaps worse, as at least Southern knows how the operation runs day to day.

Care to elaborate a bit more?

From the outside looking in, Sun Country doesn’t seem to have any issues running 738s on dedicated routes day after day. I also haven’t heard of labor issues there as toxic as at Atlas/southern. Is their pay just as bad?


Pay isn’t great, a big chunk of the pilot group is from MSP and prefers day trips, which won’t continue with this kind of flying. Terrible commuting rules, terrible reserve, etc. They’ve been hiring for quite a while, yet their attrition has been outpacing hiring for months.

Quite simply, with the hiring going on at the big 3 + WN/B6, there is simply no reason to go to these low end cargo/passenger carriers for most pilots.
From my cold, dead hands
 
HPRamper
Posts: 5017
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:16 pm

tys777 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
USAirKid wrote:

I’d be really curious to know what the break down is between FedEx Ground and FedEx Express. In my experience Express is much more solid than Ground.


I would tend to think that that FedEx number reflects a much-higher reliability by Express, and a much lower reliability by Ground/Home-Delivery. I keep hearing how much of a mess Ground is in certain parts of the country. And we're not even into the Final Push.


UPS and USPS service is a mess as well. I got a blizzard 3 weeks ago that is still jacking with my service. Lots of prime shipments that are taking 4 days to make it from the MSP distribution center to me two hours north in DLH. Meanehile, my target 2 day shipments are running fine. Heck, hasn't snowed in a week and somehow my mail didn't make it to me yesterday.

Even had UPS running Sunday deliveries around here. Will be interesting to see what final push looks like for all of the providers.

Side note: this is one of my favorite threads here. Lots of good information about the Amazon operation and cargo logistics in general.

Who is delivering your Target packages?
 
tys777
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:01 pm

HPRamper wrote:
tys777 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

I would tend to think that that FedEx number reflects a much-higher reliability by Express, and a much lower reliability by Ground/Home-Delivery. I keep hearing how much of a mess Ground is in certain parts of the country. And we're not even into the Final Push.


UPS and USPS service is a mess as well. I got a blizzard 3 weeks ago that is still jacking with my service. Lots of prime shipments that are taking 4 days to make it from the MSP distribution center to me two hours north in DLH. Meanehile, my target 2 day shipments are running fine. Heck, hasn't snowed in a week and somehow my mail didn't make it to me yesterday.

Even had UPS running Sunday deliveries around here. Will be interesting to see what final push looks like for all of the providers.

Side note: this is one of my favorite threads here. Lots of good information about the Amazon operation and cargo logistics in general.

Who is delivering your Target packages?


One was UPS and the other FexEx.
 
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ottergoose
Posts: 27
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:04 pm

tys777 wrote:
UPS and USPS service is a mess as well. I got a blizzard 3 weeks ago that is still jacking with my service. Lots of prime shipments that are taking 4 days to make it from the MSP distribution center to me two hours north in DLH. Meanehile, my target 2 day shipments are running fine. Heck, hasn't snowed in a week and somehow my mail didn't make it to me yesterday.


Surprises me that DLH doesn't get any regular air freight larger than a FedEx Feeder ATR, but RST warrants that plus three 757s (I'm sure Mayo generates a lot of Express, but that's still wild).

Does Amazon have some sort of distribution relay center up that way to funnel deliveries up from MSP?
 
tys777
Moderator
Posts: 536
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:14 pm

ottergoose wrote:
tys777 wrote:
UPS and USPS service is a mess as well. I got a blizzard 3 weeks ago that is still jacking with my service. Lots of prime shipments that are taking 4 days to make it from the MSP distribution center to me two hours north in DLH. Meanehile, my target 2 day shipments are running fine. Heck, hasn't snowed in a week and somehow my mail didn't make it to me yesterday.


Surprises me that DLH doesn't get any regular air freight larger than a FedEx Feeder ATR, but RST warrants that plus three 757s (I'm sure Mayo generates a lot of Express, but that's still wild).

Does Amazon have some sort of distribution relay center up that way to funnel deliveries up from MSP?


Not that I know of. Most of our Amazon stuff leaves shakopee and goes direct to the post office here in town for final mile. Been seeing a lot more UPS Amazon deliveries for peak though.

Occasionally, the feeder flight will fly direct MEM, but I don't think we will see anything bigger for a while. Just not the demand in town.
 
HPRamper
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:59 pm

ottergoose wrote:
tys777 wrote:
UPS and USPS service is a mess as well. I got a blizzard 3 weeks ago that is still jacking with my service. Lots of prime shipments that are taking 4 days to make it from the MSP distribution center to me two hours north in DLH. Meanehile, my target 2 day shipments are running fine. Heck, hasn't snowed in a week and somehow my mail didn't make it to me yesterday.


Surprises me that DLH doesn't get any regular air freight larger than a FedEx Feeder ATR, but RST warrants that plus three 757s (I'm sure Mayo generates a lot of Express, but that's still wild).

Does Amazon have some sort of distribution relay center up that way to funnel deliveries up from MSP?

Mayo completely drives that market. The urgency of the medical materials necessitates direct flights from the hub as opposed to Duluth which is fed from the MSP sort, adding hours of processing time. I've unloaded one of those 757s before when it had to divert to MSP - completely Mayo freight. It's incredible.

tys777 wrote:
ottergoose wrote:
tys777 wrote:
UPS and USPS service is a mess as well. I got a blizzard 3 weeks ago that is still jacking with my service. Lots of prime shipments that are taking 4 days to make it from the MSP distribution center to me two hours north in DLH. Meanehile, my target 2 day shipments are running fine. Heck, hasn't snowed in a week and somehow my mail didn't make it to me yesterday.


Surprises me that DLH doesn't get any regular air freight larger than a FedEx Feeder ATR, but RST warrants that plus three 757s (I'm sure Mayo generates a lot of Express, but that's still wild).

Does Amazon have some sort of distribution relay center up that way to funnel deliveries up from MSP?


Not that I know of. Most of our Amazon stuff leaves shakopee and goes direct to the post office here in town for final mile. Been seeing a lot more UPS Amazon deliveries for peak though.

Occasionally, the feeder flight will fly direct MEM, but I don't think we will see anything bigger for a while. Just not the demand in town.

Many years ago, DLH was home to FedEx's upper midwest spare - at the time I think it was an A310. Now I believe it's at ATW, and an A300. At least it was as of a few years ago.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:11 pm

TYS777: Interestingly, here in NYC/LI, I have a couple of Walmart orders for sundries that weren't critical so I used them despite their high reliance on FedEx Ground.

Over the past week, I had two to Long Island that were injected into the USPS network near the origin warehouse in NJ, rather than be hauled to the DDU (local post office) or regional center on Long Island. Right in the thick of Peak, USPS delivered them the very next day with the regular mail. That's faster than a 1st Class Letter would have been delivered from NJ. Walmart generally uses USPS for the last mile only, and this usage to do some short line-haul seems to have worked very-effectively.

In contrast, I had 3 packages shipped by Walmart by FedEx Ground, also from NJ/PA, which are normally one-day (and very-reliably so) by FedEx Ground. Each took two days, and took very-weird routes.

Lasership has been delivering reliably.
 
USAirKid
Posts: 621
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:00 pm

ottergoose wrote:
tys777 wrote:
UPS and USPS service is a mess as well. I got a blizzard 3 weeks ago that is still jacking with my service. Lots of prime shipments that are taking 4 days to make it from the MSP distribution center to me two hours north in DLH. Meanehile, my target 2 day shipments are running fine. Heck, hasn't snowed in a week and somehow my mail didn't make it to me yesterday.


Surprises me that DLH doesn't get any regular air freight larger than a FedEx Feeder ATR, but RST warrants that plus three 757s (I'm sure Mayo generates a lot of Express, but that's still wild).

Does Amazon have some sort of distribution relay center up that way to funnel deliveries up from MSP?


I wonder if the feeder is for the First Overnight packages and the rest of it is trucked in from MSP. It’s close enough of a drive that all but the FO packages would make it in time when sorted via MSP.
 
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Acey559
Posts: 1386
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:30 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:04 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:

At the end of the day, SY is going to struggle to staff those airplanes just as badly as Southern is. Perhaps worse, as at least Southern knows how the operation runs day to day.

Care to elaborate a bit more?

From the outside looking in, Sun Country doesn’t seem to have any issues running 738s on dedicated routes day after day. I also haven’t heard of labor issues there as toxic as at Atlas/southern. Is their pay just as bad?


Pay isn’t great, a big chunk of the pilot group is from MSP and prefers day trips, which won’t continue with this kind of flying. Terrible commuting rules, terrible reserve, etc. They’ve been hiring for quite a while, yet their attrition has been outpacing hiring for months.

Quite simply, with the hiring going on at the big 3 + WN/B6, there is simply no reason to go to these low end cargo/passenger carriers for most pilots.


Not to guide the thread in the wrong direction, but I was getting near constant emails from SY about interviewing there. They apparently recently upped first year pay and are now paying for hotel rooms while in training (crazy that wasn’t done before but I guess there are others that don’t as well). Not sure how far it will go to further recruiting efforts, but it hints at the recognition of needing something better. And hindsight also provides a little glimpse as to why they were recruiting so aggressively. I bet they were trying to front-load classes so they can jump right into the AMZ operation when the planes come.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
TXRoadMan
Posts: 55
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:01 am

A few layman's observations during peak:

  • The AFW operation started before peak, and seems to be running at full-speed. I've gotten packages via ABE, ILN, SEA, and TPA (which I think is all of the routes into AFW.) My packages have been sent straight to the local AMZL Delivery Center, bypassing the Sort Center, just as the DFW-bound shipments do. I seem to be getting more air packages now that AFW is online, but I'm not sure if that's logistics-related, or just luck of the what's-stocked-where draw.
  • Local to DFW, the local AMZL network seems to be running fine. However, AMZN has shipped some local DFW packages via UPS.
  • I saw some Prime-branded multimodal containers on a northbound BNSF train north of Fort Worth a few weeks ago. I'm not sure what they had in them -if anything-, but I don't recall seeing those on the rails before. (Packages to the Denver area? Goods into DEN, SLC, and/or SEA warehouses?)
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8763
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:52 am

 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Posts: 5880
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:17 am

TXRoadMan wrote:
A few layman's observations during peak:

  • The AFW operation started before peak, and seems to be running at full-speed. I've gotten packages via ABE, ILN, SEA, and TPA (which I think is all of the routes into AFW.) My packages have been sent straight to the local AMZL Delivery Center, bypassing the Sort Center, just as the DFW-bound shipments do. I seem to be getting more air packages now that AFW is online, but I'm not sure if that's logistics-related, or just luck of the what's-stocked-where draw.
  • Local to DFW, the local AMZL network seems to be running fine. However, AMZN has shipped some local DFW packages via UPS.
  • I saw some Prime-branded multimodal containers on a northbound BNSF train north of Fort Worth a few weeks ago. I'm not sure what they had in them -if anything-, but I don't recall seeing those on the rails before. (Packages to the Denver area? Goods into DEN, SLC, and/or SEA warehouses?)


Here in Phoenix, AMZL packages shipped via Amazon Air as well as those from PHX5 (Goodyear) bypass AZA5 (which is the new Sortation Center for the Phoenix area). I'm actually not sure if PHX8 is still in operation; I haven't got anything that went through PHX8 in a while. I know those from PHX3, PHX6, TUS2, and LGB3 (and I think possibly ONT6) go through SNA5. It has been a while since I got a ground shipment from other FCs since Amazon seems to prioritize certain FCs for One-Day shipping depending on the item type (where I live they currently seem to prioritize PHX6, TUS2, and LGB3 for Sortable, PHX5 and PHX7 for Non-Sortable, and PHX3 and ONT6 for clothing even though the latter also stocks Sortable).
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3352
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:29 am

Acey559 wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
Care to elaborate a bit more?

From the outside looking in, Sun Country doesn’t seem to have any issues running 738s on dedicated routes day after day. I also haven’t heard of labor issues there as toxic as at Atlas/southern. Is their pay just as bad?


Pay isn’t great, a big chunk of the pilot group is from MSP and prefers day trips, which won’t continue with this kind of flying. Terrible commuting rules, terrible reserve, etc. They’ve been hiring for quite a while, yet their attrition has been outpacing hiring for months.

Quite simply, with the hiring going on at the big 3 + WN/B6, there is simply no reason to go to these low end cargo/passenger carriers for most pilots.


Not to guide the thread in the wrong direction, but I was getting near constant emails from SY about interviewing there. They apparently recently upped first year pay and are now paying for hotel rooms while in training (crazy that wasn’t done before but I guess there are others that don’t as well). Not sure how far it will go to further recruiting efforts, but it hints at the recognition of needing something better. And hindsight also provides a little glimpse as to why they were recruiting so aggressively. I bet they were trying to front-load classes so they can jump right into the AMZ operation when the planes come.


It's a start, but my understanding is their net recruiting has left them losing pilots since the summer, not what I imagine they had in mind.
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