USAirKid
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:11 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
Amazon is building direct to final delivery building loads now, I'm sure they get a discount that would erase or nearly erase that surcharge.


That’d be a weird reason to waive those surcharges. Usually they are for really rural areas worth lots of driving between deliveries. So it doesn’t matter if amazon has it nicely presorted for UPS.

It actually does help tremendously. Not having to sort thousands of pieces at a hub or transport it from FC to a hub to the final center it a huge advantage. In some cases you could be taking 5000 pieces out of a hub sort, which could be the difference between the sort going down on time and getting everything processed, and the sort going down late and not making the preloads in time. You save on staffing in the hub, staffing with semi drivers, and prevent possibly tens of thousands of other packages being late.

I'm an Industrial Engineer for UPS, I know the costs and savings involved.


Thank you for adding that information.

My confusion stemmed from an incorrect reading of jeblueguy's statement. I misread that UPS was waiving the delivery area surcharge for the rural areas due to the presort, not that the presort discount balances out the delivery area surcharge.

I worked briefly with UPS in the HR department at peak, and had a few interesting conversations with IEs.. I geek out on all of that stuff.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:09 am

wjcandee wrote:
travaz wrote:
I wonder how much feedstock is left in the 767-300 world. Would it would make sense for companies to start ordering new 767? I would think Boenig could keep the cost low. As of April of 19 they had 99 firm orders for 767, including the 38 Air Force Tankers. New aircraft would certainly resolve the problem of reliability. I think the smart move as WJ said is to ship via ocean containers. If they really need lift from Asia (one way) I would think they could use thier relationship with ATSG for some favorable rates on occasion. Would love to see a 777F in Prime colors.


ATSG/CAM has locked down 22 of the retiring American 767-300s. They have only "used" 3 of those so far (2 ready to go to TLV and 1 now refurbed as a pax aircraft). (Of course, they have already converted a bunch of AA aircraft not included in that number.) They have also bought a LATAM aircraft (don't know if that's gonna be a habit) and 2 retired DL ones. DL has north of 50 still in service, and several already stored. Many of the DL aircraft are low on cycles (in the low 20,000s) but high on hours (115,000-ish). This is similar to N354AA, of which IAI/Bedek is just finishing the conversion. Apparently, this poor girl required a whole lot of mechanical work, but that's sort of the point: in theory, after conversion, you end up with an aircraft that has another 20 years left in her. If the 354AA conversion proves to operate well, it opens up a lot of opportunity with the DL fleet.

The problem with the ABX 767-200s is that they were converted like 15 years ago and the question is whether they can sustain the higher tempo. Hopefully, the recent 767-300 conversions will run reliably after their post-conversion teething pains.

But nothing should run as reliably as a new airframe, which is why that's what FedEx and UPS are buying, given their anticipated operating tempo. We will see whether Amazon ultimately thinks that some portion of its fleet should be new(er?) in order to sustain a higher operational tempo. Just like FedEx and UPS have a portion of the fleet that is old, because their operation includes a bunch of flights that require a much-lower tempo.

To add to it, Russian charter outfits alone have 20+ (closer to 30, probably) of those 767-300's in their late 20's years. How easily will they part with theirs -- good question.

In Ukraine, Ukraine International has announced retirement of their 767-300ER fleet (either three or four frames, depends on who you ask) in 2019-2020. They are 26.6 years old on average.
Probably could be of interest for conversion.

But yeah, this is starting to look like scraping the bottom of the barrel...
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
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yochai
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:07 pm

N354AA did a first air test at TLV today following conversion, and seems like it had a lot more skin work done on it than previous conversions. A second test flight expected soon with delivery on target for later this week/early next week. I have posted some photos of the aircraft on my Instagram account for who it may be of interest (IG account @yochaimossi )
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:04 pm

yochai wrote:
N354AA did a first air test at TLV today following conversion, and seems like it had a lot more skin work done on it than previous conversions. A second test flight expected soon with delivery on target for later this week/early next week. I have posted some photos of the aircraft on my Instagram account for who it may be of interest (IG account @yochaimossi )


The photo of the nose from the port side makes it look like the ANA Star Wars jet!

Yeah, a little bit of skin work. Wow.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:04 pm

The 8 ILN flights initially were split 5 for ABX and 3 for ATI, which realistically was 4 and 4 because ATI protected a lot of ABX flights. As of this week, they seem to be lining up as 6 ABX and 2 ATI. Interesting to see the tweaks. This new business is an opportunity for ABX to avoid furloughs. If they get the job done, which their talented pilot group should be able to do, that would be great.

Separately, it is interesting to see how stable new management that is willing to invest $$ in the operation can grow a 767 operator. Amerijet is very busy and flying a bit under the radar. They fly 767s leased from CAM, now largely -300s (6 -300s and 1 -200), and keep them active. I notice they have a transcontinental daily route for UPS these days, which is probably nice $$. They are an obvious potential operator for Amazon in the future if its current providers can't keep pace. How long ago was it that ATI was only operating a single 767-200, with the rest being 757s? Now ATI has 21 767s on the certificate, and likely at least 7 more coming, and still operate the 8 757s, despite talk at the time that they couldn't possibly expand so quickly. 29 aircraft (rising to 36), compared to ABX's now-22. Remarkable.
 
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DL757NYC
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:00 pm

The first time in 15 years I’ve seen DL aircraft picked up by another carrier. When DL parks its metal its usually direct to part reclaim then scrap
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:17 pm

DL757NYC wrote:
The first time in 15 years I’ve seen DL aircraft picked up by another carrier. When DL parks its metal its usually direct to part reclaim then scrap


That is certainly often the case. Of course, the 767-200s, except for the preserved one, all found later life with ABX Air and Star Air as freighters. As you point out, the two 767-300s that CAM bought were the ex-Gulf Air ones. I assume that that's because they have the GE engines, and a lot of the currently-stored DL ones have Pratt engines. I didn't go through in detail to get the percentages, but there are certainly a bunch of Pratts in the mix, but at least some GEs. Pratt-engined 767s aren't by any means precluded from conversion; it just seems that the GEs are more-desirable. ABX Air flies 3 767-300s with Pratts for DHL and others, and 2 of the Amazon fleet at Atlas have Pratts, but the rest of the ATI, Atlas-for-Amazon, and ABX fleets of 767-300s sport GEs. That said, there are a goodly-number of DL retired 767-300s that haven't been scrapped yet -- roughly 15 according to Planespotters, which sometimes doesn't pick up the scrappings, so the info is approximate. And of course there are more than 75 still in service at Delta waiting for retirement, many of which carry GEs.

And the preference for the GEs is interesting to me, given that the PW4000 that goes on the 767 is likely to have sources of new parts available long after the GE, because of the tanker contract. Of course, there is a substantial base of serviceable GEs being pulled off of 747s (and 767s) as they retire, so maybe that's the thought -- that there will be enough serviceable parts (or engines with time on them) for the next 20 years. But if I were really risk-averse, I would at least consider picking up PW4000-engined 767s on the cheap to operate myself, knowing that engine parts were not going to be an issue for the 20-year life of the conversion.

So we'll see. I do think that the demand for converted 767-300s is going to mellow after Amazon. There is definitely demand that will continue, but not likely on the scale of Amazon. Unless WalMart or someone else also decides to go the private network route. WalMart is certainly doing so on the ground side to get out in front on one-day delivery, but it marks many items that are not deliverable by ground as "unavailable", even for two-day service. As the Europeans and Australians go out of their way to screw with Amazon and other US companies, I don't think we will see the kind of growth of Amazon as we have in the US. But everybody who underestimates them has heretofore been proven wrong; I'm just trying to be realistic, knowing the truism that growth of any company in a particular space always comes to a halt.
 
sunking737
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:40 am

With a fleet or planes and now delivery trucks could Amazon make a play for package services like FedEx/DHL/UPS??
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:46 am

sunking737 wrote:
With a fleet or planes and now delivery trucks could Amazon make a play for package services like FedEx/DHL/UPS??


Probably not. Right now, Amazon prepares and labels all of the packages that go through its system. It knows what's inside of each. It can organize them to some extent at origin. All of them originate at a very few locations.

Dealing with packages from the general public, or even other highest-volume shippers, and making pickups of packages packed and labelled by others, containing who-knows-what -- OY! -- who wants to deal with all that?

As we used to say in Texas, "Why borrow the trouble?"
 
BTVB6Flyer
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:48 pm

A Southern Air 777 is currently running CVG-TPA-MIA-TPA-MIA-? routing, obviously not Amazon, but not sure what exactly it's running
 
sunking737
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:04 pm

wjcandee you always amaze me with your answers. Your right I was just thinking long range, but your right. You never know what people are sending. A guy even tried to bring a rocket launcher in his checked luggage. a returning G.I. no less....
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:42 pm

BTVB6Flyer wrote:
A Southern Air 777 is currently running CVG-TPA-MIA-TPA-MIA-? routing, obviously not Amazon, but not sure what exactly it's running


Which airframe? Also what flight number? Could be a shakedown flight for one of their new-to-them frames. Tangent I know, but it was just recently reported Kalitta will be flying some 777Fs for DHL.
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MO11
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:54 pm

The new ones are in service. This one is N703GT on the scheduled DHL run.

Spacepope wrote:
BTVB6Flyer wrote:
A Southern Air 777 is currently running CVG-TPA-MIA-TPA-MIA-? routing, obviously not Amazon, but not sure what exactly it's running


Which airframe? Also what flight number? Could be a shakedown flight for one of their new-to-them frames. Tangent I know, but it was just recently reported Kalitta will be flying some 777Fs for DHL.
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:57 pm

sunking737 wrote:
With a fleet or planes and now delivery trucks could Amazon make a play for package services like FedEx/DHL/UPS??


I doubt it. This is designed to decrease their own shipping costs which has been exploding. Adding the ability to book capacity on their flights or trucks takes away any last minute capacity for their own packages not to mention increase complexity which I doubt they want to deal with.
 
BTVB6Flyer
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:44 pm

MO11 wrote:
The new ones are in service. This one is N703GT on the scheduled DHL run.

Spacepope wrote:
BTVB6Flyer wrote:
A Southern Air 777 is currently running CVG-TPA-MIA-TPA-MIA-? routing, obviously not Amazon, but not sure what exactly it's running


Which airframe? Also what flight number? Could be a shakedown flight for one of their new-to-them frames. Tangent I know, but it was just recently reported Kalitta will be flying some 777Fs for DHL.


SOO351-354

So is this a new DHL route?
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:44 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
sunking737 wrote:
With a fleet or planes and now delivery trucks could Amazon make a play for package services like FedEx/DHL/UPS??


I doubt it. This is designed to decrease their own shipping costs which has been exploding. Adding the ability to book capacity on their flights or trucks takes away any last minute capacity for their own packages not to mention increase complexity which I doubt they want to deal with.


But what if those “extra packages” are their own? In order to continue to grow they have to keep disrupting other markets. Low cost next day shipping for prime members.... leave the package on your doorstep in Orlando and it ends up on your brother’s doorstep in Las Vegas the next day.

Their own internal shipments could still always be a priority, because Amazon can refund and issue a small credit if they don’t deliver on time.

I think Amazon will continue to grow its tentacles out into every aspect of the American economy.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:54 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
sunking737 wrote:
With a fleet or planes and now delivery trucks could Amazon make a play for package services like FedEx/DHL/UPS??


I doubt it. This is designed to decrease their own shipping costs which has been exploding. Adding the ability to book capacity on their flights or trucks takes away any last minute capacity for their own packages not to mention increase complexity which I doubt they want to deal with.


But what if those “extra packages” are their own? In order to continue to grow they have to keep disrupting other markets. Low cost next day shipping for prime members.... leave the package on your doorstep in Orlando and it ends up on your brother’s doorstep in Las Vegas the next day.

Their own internal shipments could still always be a priority, because Amazon can refund and issue a small credit if they don’t deliver on time.

I think Amazon will continue to grow its tentacles out into every aspect of the American economy.


That is a really far way away. Remember right now Amazon is slated to go to 71 planes by 2021 UPS has a fleet of over 250 and FedEx even more at over 600. Amazon has a lot of catching up to do. While they definitely are a disruptor they don't represent a true threat to the big package companies until Amazon has a reach both nationally and internationally. Right now they want to bring their own package deliveries in house, cutting costs. Any deviation from that goal until it is achieved would be irrational at best as their shipping costs jumped 36% YOY in Q2.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:23 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:

I doubt it. This is designed to decrease their own shipping costs which has been exploding. Adding the ability to book capacity on their flights or trucks takes away any last minute capacity for their own packages not to mention increase complexity which I doubt they want to deal with.


But what if those “extra packages” are their own? In order to continue to grow they have to keep disrupting other markets. Low cost next day shipping for prime members.... leave the package on your doorstep in Orlando and it ends up on your brother’s doorstep in Las Vegas the next day.

Their own internal shipments could still always be a priority, because Amazon can refund and issue a small credit if they don’t deliver on time.

I think Amazon will continue to grow its tentacles out into every aspect of the American economy.


That is a really far way away. Remember right now Amazon is slated to go to 71 planes by 2021 UPS has a fleet of over 250 and FedEx even more at over 600. Amazon has a lot of catching up to do. While they definitely are a disruptor they don't represent a true threat to the big package companies until Amazon has a reach both nationally and internationally. Right now they want to bring their own package deliveries in house, cutting costs. Any deviation from that goal until it is achieved would be irrational at best as their shipping costs jumped 36% YOY in Q2.


I worked for FedEx for a brief period of time and the majority of packages seemed to be commercial. Personal shipping by far was a much smaller volume, I don’t think they’d need a UPS or FedEx sized fleet to enter the personal shipping market. With their technology they can also be very picky about which markets to even offer it in. If certain routes are weak on the return leg they could be more aggressive, or be pickier in markets they typically bulk out with their own freight.

I’m not privy to any info, I just think Amazon’s whiteboard has lines going into every possible scenario.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:58 pm

So N367AZ is scheduled for a test flight tomorrow. It has been in post-conversion maintenance and conformity since she came to ILN from post-conversion paint on 6/18/19.

So she's almost ready for service.

When she goes into service, she will the third of the 5 additional 767-300s that Amazon is scheduled to take this year. (Five more next year.) Ex-NZ, was N930WE.

To that end, the fourth aircraft to be put into service this year would be N354AA, to be N397AZ, which should be on the way back to the States shortly. Figure two weeks for paint and an unknown period for conformity and post-conversion maintenance, so figure the earliest you will see it in service would be late September.

After that, N830WE, which went to TLV on 3/13/19. To be N419AZ. (5th this year.)

N1501P might sneak into service before 12/31/19, but most likely we will see it in January. To be N409AZ. Went to TLV on 5/14/19.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:27 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

But what if those “extra packages” are their own? In order to continue to grow they have to keep disrupting other markets. Low cost next day shipping for prime members.... leave the package on your doorstep in Orlando and it ends up on your brother’s doorstep in Las Vegas the next day.

Their own internal shipments could still always be a priority, because Amazon can refund and issue a small credit if they don’t deliver on time.

I think Amazon will continue to grow its tentacles out into every aspect of the American economy.


That is a really far way away. Remember right now Amazon is slated to go to 71 planes by 2021 UPS has a fleet of over 250 and FedEx even more at over 600. Amazon has a lot of catching up to do. While they definitely are a disruptor they don't represent a true threat to the big package companies until Amazon has a reach both nationally and internationally. Right now they want to bring their own package deliveries in house, cutting costs. Any deviation from that goal until it is achieved would be irrational at best as their shipping costs jumped 36% YOY in Q2.


I worked for FedEx for a brief period of time and the majority of packages seemed to be commercial. Personal shipping by far was a much smaller volume, I don’t think they’d need a UPS or FedEx sized fleet to enter the personal shipping market. With their technology they can also be very picky about which markets to even offer it in. If certain routes are weak on the return leg they could be more aggressive, or be pickier in markets they typically bulk out with their own freight.

I’m not privy to any info, I just think Amazon’s whiteboard has lines going into every possible scenario.


I tend to agree that they'll go after the B2C package market at some point. I can see them initially pushing for packages that are less time sensitive, so they can use these to make something on their excess capacity.

I also am curious if Amazon would morph into offering shipping broker/management service at some point, taking a set of packages and routing some of them for Amazon to the door delivery, some of them dropped off at the local PO for USPS delivery, and some just dropped on UPS. I think the biggest question is if their USPS and UPS contracts allow this.
 
Allee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:26 am

BTVB6Flyer wrote:
MO11 wrote:
The new ones are in service. This one is N703GT on the scheduled DHL run.

Spacepope wrote:

Which airframe? Also what flight number? Could be a shakedown flight for one of their new-to-them frames. Tangent I know, but it was just recently reported Kalitta will be flying some 777Fs for DHL.


SOO351-354

So is this a new DHL route?


Training flights I think
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:50 am

travaz wrote:
I wonder how much feedstock is left in the 767-300 world. Would it would make sense for companies to start ordering new 767? I would think Boenig could keep the cost low. As of April of 19 they had 99 firm orders for 767, including the 38 Air Force Tankers. New aircraft would certainly resolve the problem of reliability. I think the smart move as WJ said is to ship via ocean containers. If they really need lift from Asia (one way) I would think they could use thier relationship with ATSG for some favorable rates on occasion. Would love to see a 777F in Prime colors.


It looks like Uzbekistan Airways (HY) is about to engage in a debt-reduction exercise, and will sell a part of their fleet.
According to this:
https://www.ozodlik.org/a/uzbekistan-ai ... 77396.html
(google translate might have issues with Uzbek, so I add another rehash of this story:
https://www.avianews.com/cis/2019/07/30 ... anes_sell/
)
The gist is that they intend to sell 8 frames, and besides 2 787 and 2 757, four 767 frames are apparently in play -- two freighters (HY has only two freighters, both ~22 years old) and two pax frames (there are seven).

So, some ready freighters, and possibly some conversion feedstock is about to hit the market!
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
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yochai
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:56 am

N354AA will be delivered to Shannon today
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:37 am

Phosphorus wrote:
travaz wrote:
I wonder how much feedstock is left in the 767-300 world. Would it would make sense for companies to start ordering new 767? I would think Boenig could keep the cost low. As of April of 19 they had 99 firm orders for 767, including the 38 Air Force Tankers. New aircraft would certainly resolve the problem of reliability. I think the smart move as WJ said is to ship via ocean containers. If they really need lift from Asia (one way) I would think they could use thier relationship with ATSG for some favorable rates on occasion. Would love to see a 777F in Prime colors.


It looks like Uzbekistan Airways (HY) is about to engage in a debt-reduction exercise, and will sell a part of their fleet.
According to this:
https://www.ozodlik.org/a/uzbekistan-ai ... 77396.html
(google translate might have issues with Uzbek, so I add another rehash of this story:
https://www.avianews.com/cis/2019/07/30 ... anes_sell/
)
The gist is that they intend to sell 8 frames, and besides 2 787 and 2 757, four 767 frames are apparently in play -- two freighters (HY has only two freighters, both ~22 years old) and two pax frames (there are seven).

So, some ready freighters, and possibly some conversion feedstock is about to hit the market!


Very interesting. The -Fs are BCFs from their pax fleet, so only one owner. However, they are PW4062s, so the have the less-desirable engine on freighters. Assuming they sell the older -300 pax aircraft, they, too, are PWs, so might find their way somewhere as passenger birds. The rest of their pax 767 fleet is surprisingly-young, as little as 7 years old. All PW though.

Most likely, GECAS or someone will pick them up to re-lease. CAM only has -BDSF (Bedek/IAI conversions), although I don't know why having an already-converted BCF would be an issue. The only reason that I think about CAM is not Amazon, but rather that CAM has at least one customer that would like to lease at least one 767-300F right this second, but CAM has none to lease out until early next year at the earliest. Most of CAM's existing customers are leased GE-powered 767-300s, so I don't know if they would take an oddball-engined frame in order to get it 6 months sooner.
Last edited by wjcandee on Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:47 am

yochai wrote:
N354AA will be delivered to Shannon today


Awesome! A 5-month-and-one-week turnaround.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:28 am

wjcandee wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
travaz wrote:
I wonder how much feedstock is left in the 767-300 world. Would it would make sense for companies to start ordering new 767? I would think Boenig could keep the cost low. As of April of 19 they had 99 firm orders for 767, including the 38 Air Force Tankers. New aircraft would certainly resolve the problem of reliability. I think the smart move as WJ said is to ship via ocean containers. If they really need lift from Asia (one way) I would think they could use thier relationship with ATSG for some favorable rates on occasion. Would love to see a 777F in Prime colors.


It looks like Uzbekistan Airways (HY) is about to engage in a debt-reduction exercise, and will sell a part of their fleet.
According to this:
https://www.ozodlik.org/a/uzbekistan-ai ... 77396.html
(google translate might have issues with Uzbek, so I add another rehash of this story:
https://www.avianews.com/cis/2019/07/30 ... anes_sell/
)
The gist is that they intend to sell 8 frames, and besides 2 787 and 2 757, four 767 frames are apparently in play -- two freighters (HY has only two freighters, both ~22 years old) and two pax frames (there are seven).

So, some ready freighters, and possibly some conversion feedstock is about to hit the market!


Very interesting. The -Fs are BCFs from their pax fleet, so only one owner. However, they are PW4062s, so the have the less-desirable engine on freighters. Assuming they sell the older -300 pax aircraft, they, too, are PWs, so might find their way somewhere as passenger birds. The rest of their pax 767 fleet is surprisingly-young, as little as 7 years old. All PW though.
...

Yes, all Pratts, and they were among the last airlines to top-up their fleet with 767's if I remember well. I've flown some of their 767 in the autumn of 2013, and the frames were factory-fresh; I tend to remember pilots mentioning it on PA that the plane is a few months old or so.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
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yochai
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:00 am

Just saw ex Meridiana B763 I-AIGG with reg N392CM overtaped in TLV.
 
MO11
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:22 pm

yochai wrote:
Just saw ex Meridiana B763 I-AIGG with reg N392CM overtaped in TLV.


Yes, CAM signed for that yesterday. But it is actually registered N392UP.
 
Delta28L
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:19 pm

Is ILN going to be getting any more flights to different cities? is the eight cities served right now going to be the max that amazon expands at ILN?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:42 pm

MO11 wrote:
yochai wrote:
Just saw ex Meridiana B763 I-AIGG with reg N392CM overtaped in TLV.


Yes, CAM signed for that yesterday. But it is actually registered N392UP.


Mind. Blown.

I know that ATI and ABX are operating some charter/wet-lease flights for UPS (as is Amerijet) using 767s, but I guess ATSG went beyond that to offer some converted metal to fill UPS's gap. This aircraft, numbering-wise, fits in UPS's 767 numbering scheme at the end of its new orders. I'm guessing this is part of UPS's case that it is moving as fast as possible to cover its sudden needs with UPS-crewmember-operated metal, as required by its CBA.

Also interesting that ATSG would take a onesie-twosie aircraft and send it to TLV for conversion rather than use one of the 3 aircraft it presently has sitting and waiting to go to TLV. Presumably, those are spoken-for. I'm guessing that those 3 already have intended customers.

The loss of Amazon at FedEx has probably nudged up the air demand at UPS. But very interesting to see it getting into the used/converted market with older airframes, unlike the Japanese aircraft which were relatively-new. Perhaps that's why they're going through CAM on a lease basis rather than buying and converting it outright.

This will be fun, because I'm guessing that UPS doesn't make arrangements for just one aircraft. It's likely that there's a larger deal for several frames. Also interesting is that CAM uses IAI/Bedek exclusively for conversions; Boeing generally has more flexible availability at its two conversion contractors (ST Aero at QPG and EGAT at TPE). Notably, of the 4 767s that Meridiana last operated, one is at QPG being converted for DHL, and one has been at TLV since April, having sat at LDE for a year before that. Unknown whether CAM will be reregistering that one soon...

What is now N392UP has been at TLV since 3/20/19.
 
MO11
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:27 pm

wjcandee wrote:

I know that ATI and ABX are operating some charter/wet-lease flights for UPS (as is Amerijet) using 767s, but I guess ATSG went beyond that to offer some converted metal to fill UPS's gap. This aircraft, numbering-wise, fits in UPS's 767 numbering scheme at the end of its new orders. I'm guessing this is part of UPS's case that it is moving as fast as possible to cover its sudden needs with UPS-crewmember-operated metal, as required by its CBA.


This has been a UPS-reserved N number for nearly 20 years. I assume it will be dry-leased.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:37 pm

MO11 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

I know that ATI and ABX are operating some charter/wet-lease flights for UPS (as is Amerijet) using 767s, but I guess ATSG went beyond that to offer some converted metal to fill UPS's gap. This aircraft, numbering-wise, fits in UPS's 767 numbering scheme at the end of its new orders. I'm guessing this is part of UPS's case that it is moving as fast as possible to cover its sudden needs with UPS-crewmember-operated metal, as required by its CBA.


This has been a UPS-reserved N number for nearly 20 years. I assume it will be dry-leased.


I assume that that's the point: showing that they are doing everything they reasonably can do to obtain as quickly as possible more aircraft for UPS pilots to fly.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:52 pm

wjcandee wrote:
MO11 wrote:
yochai wrote:
Just saw ex Meridiana B763 I-AIGG with reg N392CM overtaped in TLV.


Yes, CAM signed for that yesterday. But it is actually registered N392UP.


Mind. Blown.


Well, this news wouldn't have been mindblowing if I had caught the press release from May about ATSG raising its credit line, in which it mentioned in passing that 5 767-300s were going to Amazon and 4 to UPS in 2019 on dry-leases. (Obviously, the Amazon ones will also be operated by an ATSG carrier, likely ATI, whereas the 4 to UPS will be operated by UPS.)

Dunno how I missed that. Yeesh.

It's a reasonable possibility that I-AIGJ, which has been in TLV for a few months, may also be going to CAM and maybe for lease to UPS.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:22 pm

You know, it seems like CargoFacts picks up information from this thread and then posts about it. Maybe not, but it sure seems like it. If they're gonna do that, the least they could do is give me (or us) a free subscription... :-)
 
MO11
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:27 pm

Well, let's see if it picks up on this....what's the situation at 21 Air?

I seems that both airplanes stopped flying in June, and both were ferried to BQK two weeks ago.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:06 am

Looks like CC-CZU, another LATAM 767-300, is coming to ILN today. This may be another one that will find its way to TLV after being reregistered to CAM.

This aircraft hasn't been in active service since May, when it was replaced on its usual Sao Paulo - MCO - Sao Paulo route with an A350.

It's also the next letter up from CC-CZT, and the subsequent delivery to LAN Chile after CC-CZT back in 1998. CC-CZT is now owned by CAM and being converted in TLV.

I know our friend MO11 will let us know when/if CAM buys CC-CZU!
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:57 am

MO11 wrote:
Well, let's see if it picks up on this....what's the situation at 21 Air?

I seems that both airplanes stopped flying in June, and both were ferried to BQK two weeks ago.


Didn't 21Air just take the Aeromex cargo contract from ABX Air? If so, couldn't the two aircraft be getting some TLC at Stambaugh before starting that work?

999YV 95000 hours/34000 cycles in 2017
881YV 94000 hours/35000 cycles in 2015

Probably a moderate amount of additional cycles so these are pretty-close. So plenty of room on both measures.

Or I'm totally-wrong and they went to BQK for storage or breaking up.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:50 pm

So N354AA arrived in the US today (8/2/19) from conversion at TLV after an overnight stop at SNN. It only stayed at CVG for a minute, and then headed to CWF. It could be going to AAR for mechanical work, which seems quite unlikely. More likely, it is going to Landlocked Aviation for painting. If so, this would be a real departure for ATSG. ATSG's first Amazon Air 767-300 was painted at Premier in NY State (because that who Atlas always used and Atlas's first Amazon 767-300 had just been painted there). Other than that one aircraft, I can't think of any ATSG jet that was not painted (and repainted) by Dean Baldwin Painting (ROW, GYR, GUS) as far back as the Airborne days.

So this would be a real departure from the norm. But I guess change is inevitable everywhere. Landlocked is a cool little shop; it's just a surprise.

Video of them painting a 727 for a local technical college: https://youtu.be/rKlwBdey_YE
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:20 am

Delta28L wrote:
Is ILN going to be getting any more flights to different cities? is the eight cities served right now going to be the max that amazon expands at ILN?


I think the plan was for Atlas to come in with some flights shortly.
 
fify
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:27 pm

wjcandee wrote:
After that, N830WE, which went to TLV on 3/13/19. To be N419AZ. (5th this year.)

N830WE will leave the hangar soon. I think N430CJ will be the next on the conversion line after 830.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:38 pm

fify... did we discuss who 430cj is for? -200 conversions are rare these days...
 
MO11
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:59 pm

CargoJet?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:09 pm

MO11 wrote:
CargoJet?


Yeah, maybe, but their fleet is all registered in Canada and none has the CJ suffix. Only one that does is the Drake promotional aircraft that is registered in the US and operated by Elan Express. Hence the question. Is Elan planning on operating cargo charters for someone? It's not really their business. And CargoJet operates only one old 767-200. Just seems a strange investment. If it was being converted to some kind of VIP configuration, that would make more sense. But from what fify says, it sounds like it's being cargo converted.
 
fify
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:43 am

wjcandee wrote:
MO11 wrote:
CargoJet?


Yeah, maybe, but their fleet is all registered in Canada and none has the CJ suffix... But from what fify says, it sounds like it's being cargo converted.

Yes, both 431 and 430 full cargo conversion.
N431CJ is CargoJet on papers. For 430 I don't know yet the customer.
 
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1337Delta764
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:33 pm

I wonder, could we see SCK-PHX return? Currently packages coming from OAK4 (Tracy) are still Two-Day and this is one of the longer ground linehaul routes to PHX8.
Yes, I wear Fairy Tale Pink IZOD shirts. I am a real man.
 
AV8AJET
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:29 pm

N663GT should be delivered sometime soon to Atlas after cargo conversion. Ex NEO’s originally built for Continental.
"To fly or not to fly there is no question!"
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:08 pm

AV8AJET wrote:
N663GT should be delivered sometime soon to Atlas after cargo conversion. Ex NEO’s originally built for Continental.


Yeah, I keep looking for it to get moving towards the US. It's moving around TPE, which is a clue that it's almost done. Of course, the BCF comes from overseas fully-painted, so 663GT can go straight to induction.
 
AV8AJET
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:26 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Yeah, I keep looking for it to get moving towards the US. It's moving around TPE, which is a clue that it's almost done. Of course, the BCF comes from overseas fully-painted, so 663GT can go straight to induction.


Any idea if it’s painted in Amazon colors or just plain white?
"To fly or not to fly there is no question!"
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:58 pm

I don't know, but assuming that it's the replacement for the accident aircraft (N1217A), I would think that it would be painted in Amazon Air livery, but that's just an EWAG.
 
MO11
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:15 pm

fify wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
MO11 wrote:
CargoJet?


Yeah, maybe, but their fleet is all registered in Canada and none has the CJ suffix... But from what fify says, it sounds like it's being cargo converted.

Yes, both 431 and 430 full cargo conversion.
N431CJ is CargoJet on papers. For 430 I don't know yet the customer.


The CargoJet financial statement says two 767-200 are due to enter service following conversion 4Q19 and 2Q20; the existing -200 goes away Feb20. It also says that last month it purchased another -200 (already converted) which is currently under lease to a third party.

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