wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:08 am

WPvsMW wrote:
Doesn't AMZ have options, e.g., 5X and USPS. Also, the AMZ/FX international contract remains in force.


If you mean re FedEx, they're fine. Candidly, while that's being portrayed as FedEx dumping Amazon, the fact is that they just didn't come to terms on price. FedEx was already the highest-cost option in most cases, and Amazon wasn't willing to pay the price that FedEx wanted, so they parted ways. My understanding, unconfirmed, is that Amazon wanted FedEx to come down in price to get closer to, say UPS, and FedEx wouldn't. If Amazon felt it still needed the FedEx option, it would have been more flexible as to price. Remember that Amazon, like most big shippers, has software which computes the lowest-cost shipment, and determines travel time reliability and other metrics to determine the optimal route for each package it ships. (Like ShipStation, only probably more-sophisticated in terms of metrics used.) FedEx wasn't often the top choice, but it was a useful alternative. Without it, packages will just go to other carriers, who will step up. Options include UPS (and folks like LaserShip and OnTrack) for end-to-end delivery, as well as Amazon organic line-haul with final-mile through the USPS, Amazon local delivery, LaserShip/Ontrack, and others. The air and ground organic line-haul networks are getting pretty-impressive (ground is a little more-developed and should be able to scale-up easily), and the final-mile end is likely adequate for Amazon's needs. There is still more capacity out there than Amazon can use, and it's growing.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:41 am

wjcandee wrote:
If you mean re FedEx, they're fine. ....


Agreed. I've read some commentary (not here) that FX Ground's adding Sunday deliveries is meant to attract Walmart.com and other online retailers ... sort of a "let us help you compete with Goliath" marketing position, without being (publicly) overt.
 
NemesisKnocks
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:13 pm

wjcandee wrote:
I understand the union's strategy;


And what is that?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:30 pm

NemesisKnocks wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
I understand the union's strategy;

And what is that?


If you don't know, I'm not sayin'.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:36 pm

N308CM (ex-LATAM ship just renumbered from CC-CZU) is leaving ILN tonight for TLV to be converted. That would make 6 CAM aircraft currently at TLV.

N354AA is still in paint at CWF. Today marks two weeks. To be N397AZ.
 
mcg
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:07 pm

How much investment is required to acquire a converted 767 freighter? I think there must be three components: acquisition of the airframe; significant heavy maintenance; and, conversion to a freighter. I suspect that in many cases acquisition of the airframe is the cheapest of the three steps, but that's just a guess. I also understand that the amount required probably varies a lot, depending on the airplane, the seller of the airplane and maintenance and conversion vendors. I'm curious and wonder if anyone has any insight. Thanks in advance.
 
TheProcess
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:09 pm

mcg wrote:
How much investment is required to acquire a converted 767 freighter? I think there must be three components: acquisition of the airframe; significant heavy maintenance; and, conversion to a freighter. I suspect that in many cases acquisition of the airframe is the cheapest of the three steps, but that's just a guess. I also understand that the amount required probably varies a lot, depending on the airplane, the seller of the airplane and maintenance and conversion vendors. I'm curious and wonder if anyone has any insight. Thanks in advance.



It costs about $25 million total to buy and convert a passenger B767 into a freighter.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:10 pm

And N663GT arrived in CVG today (8/18/19) from conversion in TPE. This is presumably the replacement in the Atlas fleet for the accident aircraft.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:24 pm

mcg wrote:
How much investment is required to acquire a converted 767 freighter? I think there must be three components: acquisition of the airframe; significant heavy maintenance; and, conversion to a freighter. I suspect that in many cases acquisition of the airframe is the cheapest of the three steps, but that's just a guess. I also understand that the amount required probably varies a lot, depending on the airplane, the seller of the airplane and maintenance and conversion vendors. I'm curious and wonder if anyone has any insight. Thanks in advance.


$10-12 million for a suitable airframe to be converted, plus roughly $14 million in direct costs to convert. Usually, these aircraft are retired near a heavy check, so that is often done around the same time.

ATSG estimates the cost of a 767-300 converted freighter to be about $28 million, all in. That aircraft then has an expected service life of 20 years. The price of the components can go up and down with the market for the aircraft and the demand for conversion services. ATSG has an exclusive arrangement with IAI/Bedek, and their conversion is a little less expensive than the BCF.

An interesting development is the shortage of green time CF6-80C2 engines as these airframes get new life, and a concurrent shortage of USM for the engines. The GE seems to be the engine the customers prefer on this aircraft, but I have been musing recently that because of the tanker program and associated support agreements for them, the Pratt may be more affordably-sustainable over the long haul. Presumably, GE and the engine MROs will do what has to be done while there is still a significant operating fleet, but the total price of operating the freighter may increase as a result of its popularity. This article is interesting: https://www.mro-network.com/engines-eng ... 2-capacity While an MRO like MTU has programs that focus on giving you an overhaul good for another couple of years if that's the expected remaining service life of the airframe (say in passenger airline service), they're now looking at folks wanting engines good for a much-longer service life.
 
AV8AJET
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:48 pm

wjcandee wrote:
And N663GT arrived in CVG today (8/18/19) from conversion in TPE. This is presumably the replacement in the Atlas fleet for the accident aircraft.

Any idea if she's in Amazon livery or plain white?
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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:58 pm

AV8AJET wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
And N663GT arrived in CVG today (8/18/19) from conversion in TPE. This is presumably the replacement in the Atlas fleet for the accident aircraft.

Any idea if she's in Amazon livery or plain white?


White, but with blue winglets.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:45 am

791AX, an ATI 767-200 leased to Amazon, finished up an HMV yesterday (8/17/19) at Pemco in TPA and is now back in service. Was there since 7/10/19. First time I can recall seeing an Amazon-leased aircraft in for heavy maintenance at TPA instead of ILN. Guess ILN is busy and TPA could do the work. The ATI 757-200s have all gone through HMVs there in the past year or so, but this is the first 767. (There is a retired ABX 767-200 that has been there for months, perhaps awaiting export.)
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:55 am

wjcandee wrote:
791AX, an ATI 767-200 leased to Amazon, finished up an HMV yesterday (8/17/19) at Pemco in TPA and is now back in service. Was there since 7/10/19. First time I can recall seeing an Amazon-leased aircraft in for heavy maintenance at TPA instead of ILN. Guess ILN is busy and TPA could do the work. The ATI 757-200s have all gone through HMVs there in the past year or so, but this is the first 767. (There is a retired ABX 767-200 that has been there for months, perhaps awaiting export.)


Interesting. Looks like it went through a HMV in June of 2017 as well based on the SDRs. Why another one so soon?
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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:15 am

2 years? Sounds about right.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:29 pm

Newly-converted N354AA has been in CWF for paint since it arrived in-country two Fridays ago. It is done with paint and will be flying CWF-ILN this morning (8/19/19). To become N397AZ.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:48 pm

wjcandee wrote:
2 years? Sounds about right.

Guess so. Looking at utilization, it should hit bingo cycles in about 4 years.
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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:40 am

Spacepope wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
2 years? Sounds about right.

Guess so. Looking at utilization, it should hit bingo cycles in about 4 years.


Well, 7500 cycles left as of 7/6/18, so figure about 700-800 cycles a year, I get 9 years left... If it really does double-up daily, then yeah maybe 5.

791AX comes off lease in 2023, with an option for 3 more years. So 4-to-7 years leaseable. So it could go just under 1000 cycles a year and still make 7 years. I guess they'll determine the lease length by how reliable it is at the end plus remaining cycles to the LOV.

Amazon is looking at up to 17 more 767-300s beyond the current 10, through 2026. So some of those might be to replace the -200s as they approach LOV.
 
mcg
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:03 pm

wjcandee wrote:
mcg wrote:
How much investment is required to acquire a converted 767 freighter? I think there must be three components: acquisition of the airframe; significant heavy maintenance; and, conversion to a freighter. I suspect that in many cases acquisition of the airframe is the cheapest of the three steps, but that's just a guess. I also understand that the amount required probably varies a lot, depending on the airplane, the seller of the airplane and maintenance and conversion vendors. I'm curious and wonder if anyone has any insight. Thanks in advance.


$10-12 million for a suitable airframe to be converted, plus roughly $14 million in direct costs to convert. Usually, these aircraft are retired near a heavy check, so that is often done around the same time.

ATSG estimates the cost of a 767-300 converted freighter to be about $28 million, all in. That aircraft then has an expected service life of 20 years. The price of the components can go up and down with the market for the aircraft and the demand for conversion services. ATSG has an exclusive arrangement with IAI/Bedek, and their conversion is a little less expensive than the BCF.

An interesting development is the shortage of green time CF6-80C2 engines as these airframes get new life, and a concurrent shortage of USM for the engines. The GE seems to be the engine the customers prefer on this aircraft, but I have been musing recently that because of the tanker program and associated support agreements for them, the Pratt may be more affordably-sustainable over the long haul. Presumably, GE and the engine MROs will do what has to be done while there is still a significant operating fleet, but the total price of operating the freighter may increase as a result of its popularity. This article is interesting: https://www.mro-network.com/engines-eng ... 2-capacity While an MRO like MTU has programs that focus on giving you an overhaul good for another couple of years if that's the expected remaining service life of the airframe (say in passenger airline service), they're now looking at folks wanting engines good for a much-longer service life.


Interesting, thanks. The $10 million the airframe owner receives must feel like 'found money' as these aircraft seem to have little utility left as passenger planes.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:35 pm

mcg wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
mcg wrote:
How much investment is required to acquire a converted 767 freighter? I think there must be three components: acquisition of the airframe; significant heavy maintenance; and, conversion to a freighter. I suspect that in many cases acquisition of the airframe is the cheapest of the three steps, but that's just a guess. I also understand that the amount required probably varies a lot, depending on the airplane, the seller of the airplane and maintenance and conversion vendors. I'm curious and wonder if anyone has any insight. Thanks in advance.


$10-12 million for a suitable airframe to be converted, plus roughly $14 million in direct costs to convert. Usually, these aircraft are retired near a heavy check, so that is often done around the same time.

ATSG estimates the cost of a 767-300 converted freighter to be about $28 million, all in. That aircraft then has an expected service life of 20 years. The price of the components can go up and down with the market for the aircraft and the demand for conversion services. ATSG has an exclusive arrangement with IAI/Bedek, and their conversion is a little less expensive than the BCF.

An interesting development is the shortage of green time CF6-80C2 engines as these airframes get new life, and a concurrent shortage of USM for the engines. The GE seems to be the engine the customers prefer on this aircraft, but I have been musing recently that because of the tanker program and associated support agreements for them, the Pratt may be more affordably-sustainable over the long haul. Presumably, GE and the engine MROs will do what has to be done while there is still a significant operating fleet, but the total price of operating the freighter may increase as a result of its popularity. This article is interesting: https://www.mro-network.com/engines-eng ... 2-capacity While an MRO like MTU has programs that focus on giving you an overhaul good for another couple of years if that's the expected remaining service life of the airframe (say in passenger airline service), they're now looking at folks wanting engines good for a much-longer service life.


Interesting, thanks. The $10 million the airframe owner receives must feel like 'found money' as these aircraft seem to have little utility left as passenger planes.


It’s probably been expected. This may also be why you saw AA selling some 763s to fly for Amazon. Better to get money now than be the last airline flying them.
 
sunking737
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:54 am

How can a normal avgeek find out how many cycles on an air frame?? How about total life cycles remaining before scrapping??
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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:09 am

One way is to search the SDRs at the FAA web site. https://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/ On the left side of the page, look for Public Functions, and underneath it, click on Search Reports. Do not put the N before the registration number or it won't fit in the search box. The result is a list in no kind of useful order. You just have to go down the list looking for reports in the most recent year if there are any, then the prior year, etc., then check the months to see which is the most-recent.

Each SDR should show the hours and cycles on the aircraft at the time of the report. Sometimes, a report hasn't been filed since the last HMV, which can be 2 or more years earlier, but you can get a sense of annual usage of that type of frame at that airline.

The SDRs use weird designations of the repair station or airline making the report, but you can find translations at various places. IXXA is ATI, ABXA is ABX Air, ABXR is Airborne Maintenance and Engineering Services (AMES) at ILN, PCSA is Amerijet, and so on.

Also, the reporting party sometimes types in the wrong number of cycles or hours, but that is relatively-rare.
 
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Acey559
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:46 am

wjcandee wrote:
One way is to search the SDRs at the FAA web site. https://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/ On the left side of the page, look for Public Functions, and underneath it, click on Search Reports. Do not put the N before the registration number or it won't fit in the search box. The result is a list in no kind of useful order. You just have to go down the list looking for reports in the most recent year if there are any, then the prior year, etc., then check the months to see which is the most-recent.

Each SDR should show the hours and cycles on the aircraft at the time of the report. Sometimes, a report hasn't been filed since the last HMV, which can be 2 or more years earlier, but you can get a sense of annual usage of that type of frame at that airline.

The SDRs use weird designations of the repair station or airline making the report, but you can find translations at various places. IXXA is ATI, ABXA is ABX Air, ABXR is Airborne Maintenance and Engineering Services (AMES) at ILN, PCSA is Amerijet, and so on.

Also, the reporting party sometimes types in the wrong number of cycles or hours, but that is relatively-rare.


I can’t speak for all of those designations but they appear to be part the air carrier (or repair station) certificate numbers. I can’t remember fully but I recall that the ATI certificate is IXXA followed by a few numbers and possibly another letter.
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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:50 am

yochai wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Still interested in seeing how CAM gets 2 more 767-300s ready and off to UPS in 2019, beyond the two that have been at TLV since March. Maybe they pull N363CM from ABX, given that it is already doing wet-lease work for UPS right now? I guess we will see.


ANA Cargo B767-300BCF JA8356 is ferrying HND-ANC-ILN, could this be the next UPS aircraft?


So it appears that CAM has purchased THREE of these already-converted ANA 767-300s, according to CargoFacts. So that's indubitably how the rest of the UPS requirement of 4 aircraft this year is going to be satisfied. Yochai is correct!

N392UP is going to be Frame 1. Has been at TLV since 3/20/19, and should be done soon.

Its sister, I-AIGJ, seems a good candidate for Frame 2 (but doesn't have to be). Been at TLV since 4/2/19.

1501P is for Amazon. Been at TLV since 5/14/19. That's about the last one anyone could expect to be finished and in-service this year, and it will be 2019 Frame 6 for Amazon.

304CM and its pre-conversion sister 308CM (ex-LATAM) have been at TLV since 7/14 and 8/18, respectively. They're not going to be finished in 2019.

So JA8356, whatever N-number it gets, will be Frame 3 and another one of the 3 ANA freighters will likely be Frame 4 for this year. I don't know yet where the last frame is going, whether also to UPS or otherwise.

I wouldn't be surprised if JA8356 gets some significant level of overhaul before going into service for UPS.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:52 pm

wjcandee wrote:
yochai wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Still interested in seeing how CAM gets 2 more 767-300s ready and off to UPS in 2019, beyond the two that have been at TLV since March. Maybe they pull N363CM from ABX, given that it is already doing wet-lease work for UPS right now? I guess we will see.


ANA Cargo B767-300BCF JA8356 is ferrying HND-ANC-ILN, could this be the next UPS aircraft?


So it appears that CAM has purchased THREE of these already-converted ANA 767-300s, according to CargoFacts. So that's indubitably how the rest of the UPS requirement of 4 aircraft this year is going to be satisfied. Yochai is correct!

N392UP is going to be Frame 1. Has been at TLV since 3/20/19, and should be done soon.

Its sister, I-AIGJ, seems a good candidate for Frame 2 (but doesn't have to be). Been at TLV since 4/2/19.

1501P is for Amazon. Been at TLV since 5/14/19. That's about the last one anyone could expect to be finished and in-service this year, and it will be 2019 Frame 6 for Amazon.

304CM and its pre-conversion sister 308CM (ex-LATAM) have been at TLV since 7/14 and 8/18, respectively. They're not going to be finished in 2019.

So JA8356, whatever N-number it gets, will be Frame 3 and another one of the 3 ANA freighters will likely be Frame 4 for this year. I don't know yet where the last frame is going, whether also to UPS or otherwise.

I wouldn't be surprised if JA8356 gets some significant level of overhaul before going into service for UPS.


So what could be the plans for the Air Incheon frame (formerly N7375A, LN 441) that was retuned to ILN this week to the lessor?
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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:36 pm

Well, they probably knew for a while that it was coming back, so I'm guessing they have plans for it. Maybe UPS, maybe not. It's only been in service for about a year-and-a-half after conversion, I think... I know at least one airline that is looking for another 767-300 from CAM like yesterday.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:32 am

N830WE due for an air test later today at TLV, expected delivery early next week. N392UP next up in a couple of weeks probably. N308CM arrived in TLV last night (will post photos on my IG account later today)
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:58 pm

CargoJet enters the mix.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:53 pm

Whiplash6 wrote:
CargoJet enters the mix.


Eh?

Saw one of their -200s ferrying down to AMA this morning. Paint?
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sunking737
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:14 pm

Cargojet will start flying for Amazon in Canada. Announced today. AMZ making investment in Cargojet also.
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:39 pm

sunking737 wrote:
Cargojet will start flying for Amazon in Canada. Announced today. AMZ making investment in Cargojet also.


http://www.freightwaves.com/news/amazon ... e-cargojet
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:16 am

yochai wrote:
N830WE due for an air test later today at TLV, expected delivery early next week. N392UP next up in a couple of weeks probably. N308CM arrived in TLV last night (will post photos on my IG account later today)


Yochai, your N308CM photos are amazing! I didn't realize that LATAM had stripped the paint before sale. The star is still on the tail, but otherwise, it is largely polished-metal. So it should like like 354AA when it's done -- hopefully not as much green on it, though.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:21 pm

wjcandee wrote:
yochai wrote:
N830WE due for an air test later today at TLV, expected delivery early next week. N392UP next up in a couple of weeks probably. N308CM arrived in TLV last night (will post photos on my IG account later today)


Yochai, your N308CM photos are amazing! I didn't realize that LATAM had stripped the paint before sale. The star is still on the tail, but otherwise, it is largely polished-metal. So it should like like 354AA when it's done -- hopefully not as much green on it, though.


It does looks great like this IMO...I wish they would keep it like this!

N830WE will be delivered to SNN tomorrow.
 
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Harvestman
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:30 pm

Interesting to see Cargojet in the mix as well. I for one am looking forward to seeing more hastily-patched AA paint schemes out on the ramp.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:04 am

Harvestman wrote:
Interesting to see Cargojet in the mix as well. I for one am looking forward to seeing more hastily-patched AA paint schemes out on the ramp.


sunking737 wrote:
Cargojet will start flying for Amazon in Canada. Announced today. AMZ making investment in Cargojet also.


Looks like for the moment Amazon is buying space on flights, not chartering or ACMI-ing. That of course could change. Cargojet expressly said that in the past when they have added capacity (which apparently they are going to do beyond what we can see they already are doing), they make it available to all customers, and that this deal doesn't give Amazon priority. Uh-huh. Okay. And Amazon is expecting to deliver between $60 million and $90 million in business annually for no special treatment? I don't get the egalitarian thing by Cargojet, but whatever; maybe it's a cultural thing I don't understand. (Seriously.)
 
sunking737
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:10 am

I have a good question, BUT could AMZ use Cargojet to cover the U.S. routes of another airline that is facing union (strike) issues.??
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:14 am

sunking737 wrote:
I have a good question, BUT could AMZ use Cargojet to cover the U.S. routes of another airline that is facing union (strike) issues.??


To my knowledge, no foreign country has 8th or 9th Freedom rights within the United States, which would be necessary to allow cabotage, either consecutive or stand-alone.

So the answer would be no.

And neither Atlas or ABX are going on strike. Atlas pilots are, I believe, enjoined already, and ABX pilots would be enjoined in 5 seconds.
 
sunking737
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:59 am

Thanks wjcandee, for the answer. I wasn't sure how that would work out. Here is another could AMZ use Cargojet to ship outside of the US?? (To the EU, Asia, South America) Seems strange to invest in a Canadian cargo airline, I guess I don't think of Canada has being a large pop. center
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:57 pm

sunking737 wrote:
Thanks wjcandee, for the answer. I wasn't sure how that would work out. Here is another could AMZ use Cargojet to ship outside of the US?? (To the EU, Asia, South America) Seems strange to invest in a Canadian cargo airline, I guess I don't think of Canada has being a large pop. center

Canada overall isn't really, but there are several quite large cities with a lot of space in between, Toronto for instance is the 7th most populous metro in North America, larger than D.C. or Philly - next is Montreal which is a bit larger than Seattle, and Vancouver which is between Baltimore and Charlotte in metro population. There are several others with well over 1 million in population. There is certainly a market - FedEx flies widebody aircraft from Memphis to Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg - Morningstar handles the intra-Canada FedEx freight with FX-painted 757s.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:25 pm

wjcandee wrote:
sunking737 wrote:
I have a good question, BUT could AMZ use Cargojet to cover the U.S. routes of another airline that is facing union (strike) issues.??


To my knowledge, no foreign country has 8th or 9th Freedom rights within the United States, which would be necessary to allow cabotage, either consecutive or stand-alone.

So the answer would be no.

And neither Atlas or ABX are going on strike. Atlas pilots are, I believe, enjoined already, and ABX pilots would be enjoined in 5 seconds.


The Antonovs that move GE90s from Ohio to Seattle for Boeing are the only exceptions I can think of, and those flights have a ton of administrative hops that need to be navigated to happen. There's nothing like that for normal belly or containerized freight though.

The issue isn't massive population in Canada, it's the huge distances involved. Getting a box of shoes from Montreal to Vancouver is still a 5+hour flight via air.
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travaz
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:24 pm

There is a Antonov An 124 sitting in Phoenix since August 4. It arrived from ANC. I was told they are waiting on the permission to go to PAE to move the engines.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:55 pm

Antonov Airlines has a foreign carrier certificate from the FAA, based on the open skies treaty with Ukraine and the fact that no American airline objected to flights to and from the United States for the kind of specialized cargo they carry. However, the American carriers did object to them having cabotage rights, and so cabotage is permitted only on a case-by-case basis, and presumably only where the Antonov aircraft were the only viable alternative.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:04 pm

Cargojet could ship to/from the US with a stop in Canada. I haven't looked at if they could have 7th Freedom rights under one our treaties. (i.e. US to Japan nonstop on Cargojet) but an EWAG is no.

Given the high level of opportunity given foreign carriers who pass through and see, I really think that some arrangement with one of them would probably be easier and preferable. A foreign carrier gets a lot of special rights when they go through ANC most notably the opportunity to do a "star" change of gauge. That was one of the special economic rights for Alaska that Ted Stevens in his many years in the Senate managed to arrange. It's no surprise they named the airport after him.
 
MO11
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:39 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Antonov Airlines has a foreign carrier certificate from the FAA, based on the open skies treaty with Ukraine and the fact that no American airline objected to flights to and from the United States for the kind of specialized cargo they carry. However, the American carriers did object to them having cabotage rights, and so cabotage is permitted only on a case-by-case basis, and presumably only where the Antonov aircraft were the only viable alternative.


And indeed, filed at the DOT this week:

Volga-Dnepr Airlines LLC (Volga-Dnepr Airlines or "Volga-Dnepr") respectfully applies for an exemption pursuant to 49 U.S.C. 40109(g) and 41703(c) to permit Volga-Dnepr to operate up to three (3) one-way all-cargo charter flights utilizing Volga-Dneprs AN-124-100 aircraft to transport GE Aviations cargo between Everett, WA, Seattle, WA or Spokane, WA and Columbus, OH. The flights will take place between August 21 and September 21, 2019.

The outsized cargo to be transported on these flights consists of GE9X engines, as well as ancillary parts and equipment. GE9X engine, on its shipping stand, measures approximately L-310" x W-164" x H-157" and weighs approximately 36,000 pounds.

Due to its size, GE9X engines cannot be accommodated by any domestic carrier aircraft and therefore require use of Volga-Dneprs AN-124-100 aircraft.
 
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yochai
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:33 pm

N830WE delivered to SNN earlier this morning (pic at the usual place)

N392UP scheduled for a test flight tomorrow, will probably be delivered towards the end of the week.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:08 pm

wjcandee wrote:

Given the high level of opportunity given foreign carriers who pass through and see,


OOPS. "ANC". Not "and see". Sorry...
 
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Harvestman
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:15 am

sunking737 wrote:
Here is another could AMZ use Cargojet to ship outside of the US?? (To the EU, Asia, South America)


Recently there was a Cargojet bird filling in for one of AeroUnion's on one of DHL's South American routes (can't remember if it was CVG/MEX or CVG/GDL). Wasn't quite sure how that worked.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:45 am

Harvestman wrote:
sunking737 wrote:
Here is another could AMZ use Cargojet to ship outside of the US?? (To the EU, Asia, South America)


Recently there was a Cargojet bird filling in for one of AeroUnion's on one of DHL's South American routes (can't remember if it was CVG/MEX or CVG/GDL). Wasn't quite sure how that worked.


The 2005 Open Skies agreement between the US and Canada provides Seventh-Freedom rights regarding cargo carriers on both sides of the border. This was originally expected primarily to benefit US cargo carriers, who could fly routes from Canada to any other country without the flight originating in the carrier's home country. And I'm sure it did give opportunities to American cargo carriers. However, it is why Cargojet can station a plane at CVG and fly cargo out of there -- provided the flight goes to a foreign country without making any stops in the US. Similarly, FedEx could put a plane in Toronto and fly cargo nonstop to Asia from there.

That agreement also allows for Fifth Freedom rights to passenger and cargo carriers on both sides of the border. So a carrier can fly, say, Winnipeg to NY, drop off and/or pick up passengers or cargo, and fly to London. What it can't do is fly, say, Winnipeg to LA, pick up passengers, fly them locally to New York, then pick up passengers and fly to London. The intra-US segment, carrying passengers between two US cities, would be cabotage, and the agreement doesn't allow for that. The Fifth Freedom rights also allow, say, DHL, to originate a cargo flight on Atlas in CVG, fly to Toronto and drop (but not pick up) cargo, then fly to Winnipeg and make a second drop, fly to a third Canadian city and make a final drop, etc. Previously, separate flights to each city would have to originate in the US and/or the US carrier would drop at, say, Toronto, after which Canadian carriers would fly the cargo to the onward cities. And vice-versa.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:54 pm

Harvestman wrote:
sunking737 wrote:
Here is another could AMZ use Cargojet to ship outside of the US?? (To the EU, Asia, South America)


Recently there was a Cargojet bird filling in for one of AeroUnion's on one of DHL's South American routes (can't remember if it was CVG/MEX or CVG/GDL). Wasn't quite sure how that worked.


Was Cargojet flying it outright or was it wet leased capacity as that can sometimes make a difference. Aerounion just recently got a "new" A300F replacement for the old 3-man crew bird that was pretty damaged in a nosegear collapse in MEX
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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:35 pm

Spacepope wrote:
Harvestman wrote:
sunking737 wrote:
Here is another could AMZ use Cargojet to ship outside of the US?? (To the EU, Asia, South America)


Recently there was a Cargojet bird filling in for one of AeroUnion's on one of DHL's South American routes (can't remember if it was CVG/MEX or CVG/GDL). Wasn't quite sure how that worked.


Was Cargojet flying it outright or was it wet leased capacity as that can sometimes make a difference. Aerounion just recently got a "new" A300F replacement for the old 3-man crew bird that was pretty damaged in a nosegear collapse in MEX


Subservice can indeed make a difference where permitted. However, I heard that Cargojet was actually taking over some ABX runs to South America from CVG. That may well have been an inaccurate rumor, however.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2019

Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:16 pm

yochai wrote:
N830WE delivered to SNN earlier this morning (pic at the usual place).


Nice picture! It should arrive at CVG in a couple of hours. 8/26/19. Quick layover in SNN. We will see how fast it goes to paint. And whether to Landlocked or to Dean Baldwin.

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