So how long will it take before AA drops RDU-PIT?

Fargo wrote:

So how long will it take before AA drops RDU-PIT?

Was my initial thought. Don’t think it will be long now.

On a side note, though not daily on most carriers there are now FIVE carriers on MSY-RDU. We were at zero less than a year ago I believe.

Fargo wrote:

So how long will it take before AA drops RDU-PIT?

they do well on that route, don't see a need for them to drop it

sargester wrote:

Fargo wrote:

So how long will it take before AA drops RDU-PIT?

they do well on that route, don't see a need for them to drop it

So well that they used to serve it 3x daily around a year or so ago and now just 1x daily?

rajincajun01 wrote:

sargester wrote:

Fargo wrote:

So how long will it take before AA drops RDU-PIT?

they do well on that route, don't see a need for them to drop it

So well that they used to serve it 3x daily around a year or so ago and now just 1x daily?

Lol, the LF from Jan-Sep this year on PIT-RDU was 67.6%

but, "they do well on that route"

So.. what’s left for RDU to go after? Domestic - PDX is all I can think of.. maybe a return to USVI (STT or STX).. maybe regional routes.. International is a different story but RDU does seem well served

I still think UA should have jumped on RDU and built it up as a focus city before Delta did. RDU is a high-yielding business destination, which fits in well with United’s hub portfolio that consists of major business destinations in a way that the other two legacies’ hubs don’t. Missed opportunity and very unfortunate. I’m happy for the region either way, though, because the airport has experienced significant growth.

ERJ170 wrote:

So.. what’s left for RDU to go after? Domestic - PDX is all I can think of.. maybe a return to USVI (STT or STX).. maybe regional routes.. International is a different story but RDU does seem well served

As far as the Delta focus city:

Strong possibilities: Milwaukee and Memphis (both very strong former NW markets where Delta remains the big player)
Small But Interesting: Madison (strong NW market with possible research traffic), White Plains (could there be market stimulation from pax that currently use NYC airports?), Newburgh (used to be a huge route back in the day; probably gets ATL service before RDU)
The Market's Might Be There, But Yields???: San Antonio, Providence, Buffalo, Las Vegas
Want To Take On The 800LB Gorilla: St. Louis/Kansas City (WN), San Francisco (UA),

ERJ170 wrote:

So.. what’s left for RDU to go after? Domestic - PDX is all I can think of.. maybe a return to USVI (STT or STX).. maybe regional routes.. International is a different story but RDU does seem well served

There's quite a bit for RDU to go after if we're talking about daily service. I think that F9 has been a huge boon in a way, because as they're testing out markets and stimulating demand, they've opened the door for daily service to come in and take over. I see Milwaukee and Fort Myers as the next on the list to get daily service from somebody.

Midwestindy wrote:

rajincajun01 wrote:

sargester wrote:

they do well on that route, don't see a need for them to drop it

So well that they used to serve it 3x daily around a year or so ago and now just 1x daily?

Lol, the LF from Jan-Sep this year on PIT-RDU was 67.6%

but, "they do well on that route"

Not to mention it was downgraded to an E140 this month and it is going less than daily in the Spring.

Well that'll put DL up to 80 peak day flights. Slowly getting to the 100 flights a day they want. If RDU keeps growing i'd see further expansion. Maybe SAN and more non-stops to SLC/SEA.

How many of the non-hub RDU DL flights are flown by mainline equipment? Just wondering if further DL growth to places like PDX, SJC, and SAN is limited until DL commits to more mainline flying out of RDU.

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:

How many of the non-hub RDU DL flights are flown by mainline equipment? Just wondering if further DL growth to places like PDX, SJC, and SAN is limited until DL commits to more mainline flying out of RDU.

Fort Lauderdale, Orlando, Cancun (seasonal), Tampa (seasonal)

DL surely won't last long on the MSY route. Leisure travelers typically choose LCCs when the opportunity is there, and if DL can't compete with the NK's fares, then there's not much of a chance for them.

PIT will probably be just fine, though.

rajincajun01 wrote:

A Via Air hub!

Speaking of Via Air, apparently they have bigger plans for RDU.

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/ne ... s_headline

Summary: Via Air co-owner, Ami Vizer, mentions that RDU-BHM is one of four routes Via is planning for RDU in 2019. While he declines to name the next RDU routes, he says it starts with data. “We saw RDU needs multiple routes that we service,” he says. “We never go into a city that only needs one. I can tell you that Raleigh will get at least four city pairs in 2019.” The article goes on to mention other cities in Via’s network not yet served by a nonstop at RDU include TLH, HDN, AMA, TLH, BKG, LIT, JAN, MGM, CAE, MOB, and BTR.

Midwestindy wrote:

rajincajun01 wrote:

sargester wrote:

they do well on that route, don't see a need for them to drop it

So well that they used to serve it 3x daily around a year or so ago and now just 1x daily?

Lol, the LF from Jan-Sep this year on PIT-RDU was 67.6%

but, "they do well on that route"

I'd say so, considering for example a close in r/t is $90 more than DL's IND-RDU for a flight 33% shorter and only averaged 2-3 passengers less per flight over the same period (68% vs 73%).

Furthermore, over the same period two years prior when PIT-RDU was 3x daily their LF was actually higher at 72%. Contrast that to the 2x daily DL service from IND which had a 60% LF during that period. A couple years ago DL committed to their IND-RDU route while AA did not commit to their PIT-RDU despite the superior numbers because RDU simply did not hold the value to AA that it does to DL. So this serves as a perfect example of how markets are either suppressed or stimulated at the whim of an airline as they optimize their assets and network, which I suppose will continue to be the case here with AA dropping PIT-RDU. DL will be fine on this route.

FA9295 wrote:

DL surely won't last long on the MSY route. Leisure travelers typically choose LCCs when the opportunity is there, and if DL can't compete with the NK's fares, then there's not much of a chance for them.

PIT will probably be just fine, though.

This is about RDU's FF base. They do quite well on seasonal weekend flying to FL, they've done winter MIA/RSW/CUN for a while now. MSY is likely for that same crowd.

would love to see DL start daily SAN, SJC, PDX and MCI. Not to mention regular PBI and RSW.

GSP psgr wrote:

ERJ170 wrote:

So.. what’s left for RDU to go after? Domestic - PDX is all I can think of.. maybe a return to USVI (STT or STX).. maybe regional routes.. International is a different story but RDU does seem well served

As far as the Delta focus city:

Strong possibilities: Milwaukee and Memphis (both very strong former NW markets where Delta remains the big player)
Small But Interesting: Madison (strong NW market with possible research traffic), White Plains (could there be market stimulation from pax that currently use NYC airports?), Newburgh (used to be a huge route back in the day; probably gets ATL service before RDU)
The Market's Might Be There, But Yields???: San Antonio, Providence, Buffalo, Las Vegas
Want To Take On The 800LB Gorilla: St. Louis/Kansas City (WN), San Francisco (UA),

WN actually has double (or close to double) DL's market share at MKE, but DL does have the market share edge at MEM.

HPN might not make a good focus city in the sense most of us think given it's proximity to JFK and LGA, but, it's in the northern reaches of the LGA/JFK catchment area, so you might be able to bill HPN as a reasonable alternative to folks in Westchester/Rockland, far North Jersey (Bergen County) or the Greenwich/Stamford/Bridgeport areas of Connecticut.

flyPIT wrote:

I'd say so, considering for example a close in r/t is $90 more than DL's IND-RDU for a flight 33% shorter and only averaged 2-3 passengers less per flight over the same period (68% vs 73%).

Furthermore, over the same period two years prior when PIT-RDU was 3x daily their LF was actually higher at 72%. Contrast that to the 2x daily DL service from IND which had a 60% LF during that period. A couple years ago DL committed to their IND-RDU route while AA did not commit to their PIT-RDU despite the superior numbers because RDU simply did not hold the value to AA that it does to DL. So this serves as a perfect example of how markets are either suppressed or stimulated at the whim of an airline as they optimize their assets and network, which I suppose will continue to be the case here with AA dropping PIT-RDU. DL will be fine on this route.

1. You randomly bringing up IND is odd, considering I said nothing about IND in my original post

2. Since you want to bring up IND, it has the second highest RJ nonstop avg fare for DL at RDU behind AUS. And outside of winter, the LFs have been almost 80%
Q2 2018-nonstop avg fare for DL: https://www.transtats.bts.gov/DL_SelectFields.asp
RDU-AUS-$229
RDU-IND-$209
RDU-BDL-$208
RDU-CVG-$195
RDU-TPA-$185
RDU-JFK-$183
RDU-LGA-$183
RDU-CLE-$180
RDU-CMH-$178
RDU-PHL-$178
RDU-EWR-$174
RDU-FLL-$164
RDU-MIA-$159
RDU-BNA-$152
RDU-BWI-$147

3. IND-RDU has been double the PDEW of PIT-RDU consistently since the early-mid 2000s, even with IND-RDU having significantly higher avg fares until a couple years ago. The higher LFs that you are referencing on PIT-RDU are attributable to connections, as there is no way AA PIT-RDU could support 3x daily without connections on either end. An example of this is 2016, referencing Q2 2016 stats which you can find here: https://data.transportation.gov/Aviatio ... -b2ir/data, IND-RDU was 122 total PDEW at $218, PIT-RDU was 37 total PDEW at $188, so no way that supported 3x daily service without connections (which AA doesn't want to do).

4. I have no idea what you are arguing about, the route will be dropped by AA in a few months (if that) and DL will do fine on the route. AA has stated endlessly that they plan on dropping all their non-hub flying, so this shouldn't be surprising.

Space at RDU is becoming a premium. Even with the opening of that 4 gates at T1 later this year, it will allow T2 to have 5(?) gates open? That should alleviate some but definitely does not allow for much future growth.

I still think it was a mistake to put the Internaltional gates at C23-24 instead of D1, D3, C1, and C3, maybe even C7... but I digress

Midwestindy wrote:

1. You randomly bringing up IND is odd, considering I said nothing about IND in my original post

Are you the only one allowed to bring up IND? Its perfectly ok to bring up another example to use for comparison reasons.

Midwestindy wrote:

2. Since you want to bring up IND, it has the second highest RJ nonstop avg fare for DL at RDU behind AUS

Yet fares are lower than AA's PIT-RDU more recently, which you admit in your #3 point. But this alone will not stop AA from yanking PIT-RDU while DL remains. That was my point.

Midwestindy wrote:

3. IND-RDU has been double the PDEW of PIT-RDU consistently since the early-mid 2000s, even with IND-RDU having significantly higher avg fares until a couple years ago. The higher LFs that you are referencing on PIT-RDU are attributable to connections, as there is no way AA PIT-RDU could support 3x daily without connections on either end.

Connections to where? AA barely had anything to connect to at PIT or RDU. Unlike DL at RDU....

without connections (which AA doesn't want to do).

I'm standing by for the announcement AA will be drawing down their CLT, DFW, ORD, and PHL hubs because they don't want to do connections.

Midwestindy wrote:

4. I have no idea what you are arguing about, the route will be dropped by AA in a few months (if that) and DL will do fine on the route. AA has stated endlessly that they plan on dropping all their non-hub flying, so this shouldn't be surprising.

Who's arguing? I stated AA can be expected to drop PIT-RDU. Merely using this as an example of how one airline finds some worth in a market while another does not so it is not necessarily a reflection on the market itself.

flyPIT wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

3. IND-RDU has been double the PDEW of PIT-RDU consistently since the early-mid 2000s, even with IND-RDU having significantly higher avg fares until a couple years ago. The higher LFs that you are referencing on PIT-RDU are attributable to connections, as there is no way AA PIT-RDU could support 3x daily without connections on either end.

Connections to where? AA barely had anything to connect to at PIT or RDU. Unlike DL at RDU.....

Having worked this flight many, many times. People use it to connect to LGA, LHR, LAX, and MIA. Maybe 5-10/flight. Used to be a very popular connection RDU-PIT-STL.

flyPIT wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

without connections (which AA doesn't want to do).

I'm standing by for the announcement AA will be drawing down their CLT, DFW, ORD, and PHL hubs because they don't want to do connections.

Good lord, if you can't understand what I meant in my original statement (which you cut out), I can't help you

ctrabs0114 wrote:

GSP psgr wrote:

ERJ170 wrote:

So.. what’s left for RDU to go after? Domestic - PDX is all I can think of.. maybe a return to USVI (STT or STX).. maybe regional routes.. International is a different story but RDU does seem well served

As far as the Delta focus city:

Strong possibilities: Milwaukee and Memphis (both very strong former NW markets where Delta remains the big player)
Small But Interesting: Madison (strong NW market with possible research traffic), White Plains (could there be market stimulation from pax that currently use NYC airports?), Newburgh (used to be a huge route back in the day; probably gets ATL service before RDU)
The Market's Might Be There, But Yields???: San Antonio, Providence, Buffalo, Las Vegas
Want To Take On The 800LB Gorilla: St. Louis/Kansas City (WN), San Francisco (UA),

WN actually has double (or close to double) DL's market share at MKE, but DL does have the market share edge at MEM.

HPN might not make a good focus city in the sense most of us think given it's proximity to JFK and LGA, but, it's in the northern reaches of the LGA/JFK catchment area, so you might be able to bill HPN as a reasonable alternative to folks in Westchester/Rockland, far North Jersey (Bergen County) or the Greenwich/Stamford/Bridgeport areas of Connecticut.

I was merely pitching RDU-MKE/MEM/HPN/MSN/SWF etc, not entirely new focus cities.

Rafale9312 wrote:

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:

How many of the non-hub RDU DL flights are flown by mainline equipment? Just wondering if further DL growth to places like PDX, SJC, and SAN is limited until DL commits to more mainline flying out of RDU.

Fort Lauderdale, Orlando, Cancun (seasonal), Tampa (seasonal)

Also BOS and occasionally they've also done LGA/JFK (but not currently). I suppose LGA/JFK are hubs, but BOS isn't (or maybe it is, I can't keep up).

RDUDDJI wrote:

Rafale9312 wrote:

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:

How many of the non-hub RDU DL flights are flown by mainline equipment? Just wondering if further DL growth to places like PDX, SJC, and SAN is limited until DL commits to more mainline flying out of RDU.

Fort Lauderdale, Orlando, Cancun (seasonal), Tampa (seasonal)

Also BOS and occasionally they've also done LGA/JFK (but not currently). I suppose LGA/JFK are hubs, but BOS isn't (or maybe it is, I can't keep up).

It's all good - the reason I didn't put down BOS was because it is still considered a focus city to DL, and LGA/JFK are definitely hubs for them as well, but as you said, DL hasn't put mainline aircraft on those routes in a while.

My personal guess on the three Via routes that they're thinking about right now: SDF, MEM, TLH (untapped state capital to state capital route). I actually think CHS would be a good add, as well, since the drive time from RDU is about the length of going to Northern VA or Washington, DC.

hockyluv21 wrote:

My personal guess on the three Via routes that they're thinking about right now: SDF, MEM, TLH (untapped state capital to state capital route). I actually think CHS would be a good add, as well, since the drive time from RDU is about the length of going to Northern VA or Washington, DC.

Those would be good adds, though I think TLH is a stretch. If they end up adding these cities, CHS and MYR are good for golf/leisure traffic and were very popular in the AA hub days.

rajincajun01 wrote:

Those would be good adds, though I think TLH is a stretch. If they end up adding these cities, CHS and MYR are good for golf/leisure traffic and were very popular in the AA hub days.

MYR, IMO, is a bit too close by car for it to be a viable O&D route, unless it's on ULCC fares. CHS, however, is the perfect distance, as would a spot like SAV or TLH.

I was also thinking that NK should add daily RDU-ACY in the near-future. Not because of the casinos, but because there's so much Cary to NJ VFR via car that they could stimulate their own market just from converting drivers to fliers. TTN is one of F9's best performing markets from RDU just from the strength of that market, and ACY would hit a different part of NJ that has untapped demand.

The higher LFs that you are referencing on PIT-RDU are attributable to connections, as there is no way AA PIT-RDU could support 3x daily without connections on either end.

This brings up an interesting question: Does DL or any other airline (WN?) send connecting traffic through RDU? If so that are the most common origin/destination cities?

Connecting traffic makes up less than 5% of total traffic at RDU. The number has been growing as DL expands.

does anyone know if F9 sells connections over RDU?

GSOflyerDL wrote:

The higher LFs that you are referencing on PIT-RDU are attributable to connections, as there is no way AA PIT-RDU could support 3x daily without connections on either end.

This brings up an interesting question: Does DL or any other airline (WN?) send connecting traffic through RDU? If so that are the most common origin/destination cities?

Didn't look through all the connections, but here are some DL connections based on Q2 2018 (int'l not included).

IND-RDU-XXX 6 PDEW
BOS-RDU-MCO 6 PDEW
CMH-RDU-XXX 6 PDEW
CLE-RDU-XXX 7 PDEW
LGA-RDU-XXX 7 PDEW
BWI-RDU-XXX 11 PDEW
BNA-RDU-XXX 11 PDEW
EWR-RDU-XXX 13 PDEW
ATL-RDU-XXX 14 PDEW
BOS-RDU-XXX(MCO is included) 16.5 PDEW
DCA-RDU-XXX 17 PDEW

rajincajun01 wrote:

Connecting traffic makes up less than 5% of total traffic at RDU. The number has been growing as DL expands.

Do you know which origin and destination cities make up this traffic? 5% of total traffic is still hundreds of thousands.

Just guessing, but on DL mainline metal I could imagine some Florida traffic being routed through RDU to CDG. Perhaps LAX to a non-hub east coast city like PHL as well (though PHL isn’t mainline from RDU I don’t think).

On the other hand, why route through RDU when ATL or another hub city is better suited for connecting traffic.

ncflyer wrote:

does anyone know if F9 sells connections over RDU?

I checked a one-way flight for May 2 -- and you can fly BDL-RDU-JAX, sold on the F9 website for $110. The connection is for 3 hr 41 min in RDU -- but they do, in fact, sell connections through Raleigh/Durham.

Also, just for fun...May 7 -- PHL-RDU-JAX for $108 one-way...connection time is 2 hr 46 min in RDU.

flyPIT wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

1. You randomly bringing up IND is odd, considering I said nothing about IND in my original post

Are you the only one allowed to bring up IND? Its perfectly ok to bring up another example to use for comparison reasons.

Midwestindy wrote:

2. Since you want to bring up IND, it has the second highest RJ nonstop avg fare for DL at RDU behind AUS

Yet fares are lower than AA's PIT-RDU more recently, which you admit in your #3 point. But this alone will not stop AA from yanking PIT-RDU while DL remains. That was my point.

Midwestindy wrote:

3. IND-RDU has been double the PDEW of PIT-RDU consistently since the early-mid 2000s, even with IND-RDU having significantly higher avg fares until a couple years ago. The higher LFs that you are referencing on PIT-RDU are attributable to connections, as there is no way AA PIT-RDU could support 3x daily without connections on either end.

Connections to where? AA barely had anything to connect to at PIT or RDU. Unlike DL at RDU....

without connections (which AA doesn't want to do).

I'm standing by for the announcement AA will be drawing down their CLT, DFW, ORD, and PHL hubs because they don't want to do connections.

Midwestindy wrote:

4. I have no idea what you are arguing about, the route will be dropped by AA in a few months (if that) and DL will do fine on the route. AA has stated endlessly that they plan on dropping all their non-hub flying, so this shouldn't be surprising.

Who's arguing? I stated AA can be expected to drop PIT-RDU. Merely using this as an example of how one airline finds some worth in a market while another does not so it is not necessarily a reflection on the market itself.

AA's average fare on PIT-RDU is high because it's running one daily 44 to 50 seater. Big difference vs 2 daily 70 to 76 seater.

tphuang wrote:

AA's average fare on PIT-RDU is high because it's running one daily 44 to 50 seater. Big difference vs 2 daily 70 to 76 seater.

I agree and it doesn't change my original point.

Looking at random dates in the fall. RDU-PIT on DL is about $119 while AA is $296. AA def won’t last on the route with a those prices, smaller, less efficient plane that has neither First Class nor WiFi.

GSOflyerDL wrote:

rajincajun01 wrote:

Connecting traffic makes up less than 5% of total traffic at RDU. The number has been growing as DL expands.

Do you know which origin and destination cities make up this traffic? 5% of total traffic is still hundreds of thousands.

Just guessing, but on DL mainline metal I could imagine some Florida traffic being routed through RDU to CDG. Perhaps LAX to a non-hub east coast city like PHL as well (though PHL isn’t mainline from RDU I don’t think).

On the other hand, why route through RDU when ATL or another hub city is better suited for connecting traffic.

I do not know DL’s most popular connecting routes, but AA had usually some connecting on LHR in both directions to DFW, PIT, and LAX mostly, with occasional MIA bound pax. A few people would do NYC/PIT-MIA, but not a lot.

My assumption would be DL, WN, and AA would have the most connecting passengers in that order.

Keep in mind not everyone goes for nonstops when booking, which can generate some through traffic because it’s cheaper. May be why you see people do LHR-RDU-DFW instead of LHR-DFW.

So there was a special meeting today at RDU discussion long haul services. Anyone know what was discussed/outcome? Would be interested to hear. With the failure to capture all the federal money that was promised for the international runway, wonder what they will come up with to make up the difference.

ERJ170 wrote:

So there was a special meeting today at RDU discussion long haul services. Anyone know what was discussed/outcome? Would be interested to hear. With the failure to capture all the federal money that was promised for the international runway, wonder what they will come up with to make up the difference.

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2019/01/29/rdu-mulls-plan-to-support-more-international.html

In short, the airport is shifting some Frontier operations to Terminal 1 and are trying to convince Allegiant and Spirit to do the same. Besides that, they're inferring that CBP and the ticket counter space needs to be expanded to attract more international service along with possibly expanding one or both concourses in Terminal 2 sooner than what Vision 2040 had called for.

How are only SOME of the F9 shifting? I would think ALL! That’s weird.. but makes sense... WN, F9, G4, NK, and Via Air should all be there.. and they need to pus some kinda RDU based Club there...

ERJ170 wrote:

How are only SOME of the F9 shifting? I would think ALL! That’s weird.. but makes sense... WN, F9, G4, NK, and Via Air should all be there.. and they need to pus some kinda RDU based Club there...

Terminal 1 doesn't have any CBP facilities, and the planes that F9 are using for their international ops usually get rotated into domestic flights with a pretty quick turnaround.

Rafale9312 wrote:

ERJ170 wrote:

How are only SOME of the F9 shifting? I would think ALL! That’s weird.. but makes sense... WN, F9, G4, NK, and Via Air should all be there.. and they need to pus some kinda RDU based Club there...

Terminal 1 doesn't have any CBP facilities, and the planes that F9 are using for their international ops usually get rotated into domestic flights with a pretty quick turnaround.

WN uses Terminal 2 for their Internaional. Why not do the same for F9 as well? They can tow it.

This issue though of CBP is proably why the talk of early expansion of T2 is going on. Too many airlines need it.

Rafale9312 wrote:

ERJ170 wrote:

So there was a special meeting today at RDU discussion long haul services. Anyone know what was discussed/outcome? Would be interested to hear. With the failure to capture all the federal money that was promised for the international runway, wonder what they will come up with to make up the difference.

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2019/01/29/rdu-mulls-plan-to-support-more-international.html

In short, the airport is shifting some Frontier operations to Terminal 1 and are trying to convince Allegiant and Spirit to do the same. Besides that, they're inferring that CBP and the ticket counter space needs to be expanded to attract more international service along with possibly expanding one or both concourses in Terminal 2 sooner than what Vision 2040 had called for.

Question, how many FIS gates does RDU have and how many pax an hour can the customs hall process?

Fargo wrote:

Rafale9312 wrote:

ERJ170 wrote:

So there was a special meeting today at RDU discussion long haul services. Anyone know what was discussed/outcome? Would be interested to hear. With the failure to capture all the federal money that was promised for the international runway, wonder what they will come up with to make up the difference.

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2019/01/29/rdu-mulls-plan-to-support-more-international.html

In short, the airport is shifting some Frontier operations to Terminal 1 and are trying to convince Allegiant and Spirit to do the same. Besides that, they're inferring that CBP and the ticket counter space needs to be expanded to attract more international service along with possibly expanding one or both concourses in Terminal 2 sooner than what Vision 2040 had called for.

Question, how many FIS gates does RDU have and how many pax an hour can the customs hall process?

Are t there 16 stations? I always thought that having 23-25 the international gates was not quite bright.. again, I say C1,3,7 and D1,3,5 should have been international capable gates. Now they are stuck without the ability to expand with sufficient widebody space..

flyPIT wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

1. You randomly bringing up IND is odd, considering I said nothing about IND in my original post

Are you the only one allowed to bring up IND? Its perfectly ok to bring up another example to use for comparison reasons.

Midwestindy wrote:

2. Since you want to bring up IND, it has the second highest RJ nonstop avg fare for DL at RDU behind AUS

Yet fares are lower than AA's PIT-RDU more recently, which you admit in your #3 point. But this alone will not stop AA from yanking PIT-RDU while DL remains. That was my point.

Midwestindy wrote:

3. IND-RDU has been double the PDEW of PIT-RDU consistently since the early-mid 2000s, even with IND-RDU having significantly higher avg fares until a couple years ago. The higher LFs that you are referencing on PIT-RDU are attributable to connections, as there is no way AA PIT-RDU could support 3x daily without connections on either end.

Connections to where? AA barely had anything to connect to at PIT or RDU. Unlike DL at RDU....

without connections (which AA doesn't want to do).

I'm standing by for the announcement AA will be drawing down their CLT, DFW, ORD, and PHL hubs because they don't want to do connections.

Midwestindy wrote:

4. I have no idea what you are arguing about, the route will be dropped by AA in a few months (if that) and DL will do fine on the route. AA has stated endlessly that they plan on dropping all their non-hub flying, so this shouldn't be surprising.

Who's arguing? I stated AA can be expected to drop PIT-RDU. Merely using this as an example of how one airline finds some worth in a market while another does not so it is not necessarily a reflection on the market itself.

AA actually had a DL style focus city at RDU until around 10 years ago actually. Most flights were flown on ERJs. I definitely remember EWR-RDU was one of them up until they started making heavy cuts to the market. In 2007 I was flying EWR-ORD-LAX and noticed the EWR-RDU flight next door continued onward on RDU-SDF.

I will say part of it was probably because there was an outcry by the RDU business community once Midway airlines shut down after 9/11. AA closed it's RDU hub in 1995 and made it just a spoke. However because they always had a code share agreement with Midway (and they swooped in on AA's hub gates as well after they closed the hub) they probably felt some obligation to start a focus city up again as well.

It's one of those things people forget about (I almost did). In 2007 they made a final push for the focus city and announced some mainline upgrades to S80s, one being RDU-AUS. Then there was about a 5-8 year break before DL opened RDU as a focus city.

T2 International Gates are where they are because of aircraft size. A 767 of 777 is too long for any gate locaton except the ends of the Terminal. There is not enough apron depth to fit a large widebody aircraft between the building and the taxiway object free area. T2 expansion as shown in the Vision2040 plan cannot begin until the runway is relocated. The new runway will not be operational for at least 6 to 8 years. Then you have to build the expansion, that is another 2 years. Short of a miracle, nothing is happening to T2 for a while.

T1 cannot accommodate any new airlines until a second baggage system is installed. The only baggage system in T1 is owned and operated by Southwest. Even after a second baggage system is installed, there are limited gate options. Gate A9 is really only good for an RJ size aircraft (Via Air). Gates A1, A2, A3 are jammed together with the seating equivalent of one gate. If Frontier only needs 2 gates, T1 should be able to accommodate. Until the T1 gate expansion is complete (probably 3-4 years) there is limited room to accommodate shifting operations from T2.