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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:19 pm

patrickjp93 wrote:
One thing I can't seem to find about the 777X is whether it still uses the old 777's bleed air systems or if it's gone the More Electric Aircraft route.


Pretty sure it is leveraging the existing bleed air systems.The "charting the changes" graphics published by Flight and other periodicals make no mention of moving to a more electric architecture.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:53 pm

Stitch wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
One thing I can't seem to find about the 777X is whether it still uses the old 777's bleed air systems or if it's gone the More Electric Aircraft route.


Pretty sure it is leveraging the existing bleed air systems.The "charting the changes" graphics published by Flight and other periodicals make no mention of moving to a more electric architecture.


My money that other than the new wings, engines and revised frames for wider cabin elbow width, most of the remaining systems remains the same for commonality with the existing fleet. The existing 787 ECS system will not be sufficient for the larger 777 and sourcing out a new ECS system would involve years of development and delays, that would be not prudent.

The new flight deck would be one of the few items that uses 787 tech.

bt
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kanban
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:56 pm

bikerthai wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
I don't need experience in aerospace to be able to read testing frameworks and--using my B.S. in Physics, M.Sc. in Computer Science, and years of experience building software and tuning test suites--find the unnecessary pieces therein.


:rotfl:

As a 30+ years veteran in Aerospace Engineer design, I just want to say that a B.S. in Physics, and M.S. in Computer Science and umpteenth years of software design experience means this much :talktothehand: in aerospace structure design. Heck, even a B.S. or M.S. in Aerospace only count for maybe 5% of knowledge needed to design an effective aerospace structure. Not to say that those with the above degrees can not do well in the field, but more likely most of the lesson one learns is on the job training.

So before expounding on how much more you know about aerospace design than those who are in the field, be warn that the more you sound high and mighty, the more silly you'll come across.

I've had my run in with a few young up-and-coming know-it-all engineers in my time. And I'm still cleaning up their mistakes :sarcastic: as well as my own :bomb: :fight:

bt


Well said BT... had a computer science guy report to me once to be a tech writer.. did a wonderful job of stream lining a process.. he deleted all the process inspections and go/no go decisions for a manufacturing process saying they were statistically unimportant. the document had to with electrical grounding and bonding. ever see an ungrounded aircraft ignite during fueling???
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:49 pm

Just a reminder to keep your posts on topic. Those who continue to derail the thread may find themselves on the end of a warning or ban. If you want to discuss things not related to the topic discuss it in the relevant thread or start a new one.
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marcelh
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:18 pm

When will we see first flight? Modified engines have been flown in, so hang those under the wings and get that bird into the air ASAP
 
Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:45 pm

marcelh wrote:
When will we see first flight? Modified engines have been flown in, so hang those under the wings and get that bird into the air ASAP



Towards end of October or early November will be first flight
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:20 pm

Spetsnaz55 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
When will we see first flight? Modified engines have been flown in, so hang those under the wings and get that bird into the air ASAP

Towards end of October or early November will be first flight

Thanks for the info, Spetsnaz55.

Can we speculate on why it'd be another 3-4 weeks from An124 drop off till first 777x flight?

We knew it did various taxi tests etc on the Mk1 engines.

We also know they will not be flying any 148% load profiles so the pressurization issue will not be a factor.
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:15 pm

Spetsnaz55 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
When will we see first flight? Modified engines have been flown in, so hang those under the wings and get that bird into the air ASAP


Towards end of October or early November will be first flight


So early 4Q? :duck:
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Harvestman
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:25 pm

Apologies for a dumb question - is there a general non-testing 777 thread? Trying to find out more about a situation with AeroLogic's newer birds.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:28 pm

Harvestman wrote:
Apologies for a dumb question - is there a general non-testing 777 thread? Trying to find out more about a situation with AeroLogic's newer birds.


There is a 777 Production Thread at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411955, however it doesn't handle In-Service data.
 
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Harvestman
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:42 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
Stitch wrote:
Harvestman wrote:
Apologies for a dumb question - is there a general non-testing 777 thread? Trying to find out more about a situation with AeroLogic's newer birds.


There is a 777 Production Thread at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411955, however it doesn't handle In-Service data.

That'll do nicely - thanks.
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:57 am

After reading the above discussion about GE9X transport back to Seattle, someone I can trust also told me there was a flight from Evendale to Seattle on 5 October.
It is unclear if the An124 flight carried GE9X engines.

One poster here said previously that he saw big "packages" with GE9X written on them.

If it is true the first several engines are back in Seattle we should expect re-taxi test during the coming two weeks.

Thank you for the information above.
 
Scotron12
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:40 am

VV wrote:
After reading the above discussion about GE9X transport back to Seattle, someone I can trust also told me there was a flight from Evendale to Seattle on 5 October.
It is unclear if the An124 flight carried GE9X engines.

One poster here said previously that he saw big "packages" with GE9X written on them.

If it is true the first several engines are back in Seattle we should expect re-taxi test during the coming two weeks.

Thank you for the information above.


How many engines had to.be returned for repair and how many engines can the AN124 carry at one time?

Could might have been picking up as opposed to delivering reworked or repaired ones. Seems very short turnaround if fixed already.
 
Sooner787
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:23 pm

Wouldn't the modified engines need to be flown on GE's 747 testbed
before they'd be cleared to fly on the 779 ?

Or has that been done already?
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:30 pm

Unless the actual engines are different, those already provided to Boeing could not have been the only engines available, as production was ongoing. The engines delivered could be those that had already been modified and tested.....just a thought
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:40 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Wouldn't the modified engines need to be flown on GE's 747 testbed before they'd be cleared to fly on the 779?


As it appears to be a durability issue and fix, lab testing should be more effective. I don't think they would learn anything from a short-duration flight test.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:43 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
VV wrote:
After reading the above discussion about GE9X transport back to Seattle, someone I can trust also told me there was a flight from Evendale to Seattle on 5 October.
It is unclear if the An124 flight carried GE9X engines.

One poster here said previously that he saw big "packages" with GE9X written on them.

If it is true the first several engines are back in Seattle we should expect re-taxi test during the coming two weeks.

Thank you for the information above.


How many engines had to.be returned for repair and how many engines can the AN124 carry at one time?

Could might have been picking up as opposed to delivering reworked or repaired ones. Seems very short turnaround if fixed already.


It's somewhat finger in the wind, but based on the length, the most you can fit I think is 3.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:44 pm

WH001 777-9 N779XW currently at the fuel dock

Image

https://twitter.com/JenSchuld/status/11 ... 62080?s=20
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ER757
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:57 pm

qf789 wrote:
WH001 777-9 N779XW currently at the fuel dock

Image

https://twitter.com/JenSchuld/status/11 ... 62080?s=20

must have engines hanging under her wings then - I'd say there is no other reason it would be at the fuel dock
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:53 pm

What usually happens at the fuel dock?
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:04 pm

It doesn't have engines yet.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 pm

Boeing and the FAA have the opportunity to implement the more general certification recommendations of the JATR report on 777-9 certification.

https://www.faa.gov/news/media/attachments/Final_JATR_Submittal_to_FAA_Oct_2019.pdf

If they do not, I'm not sure how foreign authorities taking part in the JATR report will move ahead on accepting the 777-9 with their local airlines.
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:22 pm

Opus99 wrote:
What usually happens at the fuel dock?

The fuel dock is the safety verification of the fueling system.
Do the tanks get loaded in the expected order?
Any leaks or faults? (It happens, sometimes bad.)
Is the aircraft fuel metering accurate?
Level sensors accurate?
Does fuel distribution redistribute when an intentional mis-fill occurs?
Can the aircraft unload fuel on command?
Once partially unloaded, can the aircraft pump fuel to redistribute weight (for the aircraft, such as the 787, that have the pumps).
Does the fuel innerting system work?
Are tanks maintained within specified pressures at maximum and minimum fueling rates?
Do the tanks hold the minimum contract capacity? (There was significant variation in the old days, before say 1998, not all aircraft passed on the high end).



The initial engine runs complete the fuel system testing.


Lightsaber
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:53 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
What usually happens at the fuel dock?

The fuel dock is the safety verification of the fueling system.
Do the tanks get loaded in the expected order?
Any leaks or faults? (It happens, sometimes bad.)
Is the aircraft fuel metering accurate?
Level sensors accurate?
Does fuel distribution redistribute when an intentional mis-fill occurs?
Can the aircraft unload fuel on command?
Once partially unloaded, can the aircraft pump fuel to redistribute weight (for the aircraft, such as the 787, that have the pumps).
Does the fuel innerting system work?
Are tanks maintained within specified pressures at maximum and minimum fueling rates?
Do the tanks hold the minimum contract capacity? (There was significant variation in the old days, before say 1998, not all aircraft passed on the high end).



The initial engine runs complete the fuel system testing.


Lightsaber



Interesting,


What was the solution when the tanks did not hold the required amount ?
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:33 am

keesje wrote:
Boeing and the FAA have the opportunity to implement the more general certification recommendations of the JATR report on 777-9 certification.

https://www.faa.gov/news/media/attachments/Final_JATR_Submittal_to_FAA_Oct_2019.pdf

If they do not, I'm not sure how foreign authorities taking part in the JATR report will move ahead on accepting the 777-9 with their local airlines.

So the problems discovered with the 777X certification that requires fixing are?
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:41 am

par13del wrote:
keesje wrote:
Boeing and the FAA have the opportunity to implement the more general certification recommendations of the JATR report on 777-9 certification.

https://www.faa.gov/news/media/attachments/Final_JATR_Submittal_to_FAA_Oct_2019.pdf

If they do not, I'm not sure how foreign authorities taking part in the JATR report will move ahead on accepting the 777-9 with their local airlines.

So the problems discovered with the 777X certification that requires fixing are?


The problems in this case are innuendo.
 
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kanban
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:39 am

lightsaber wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
What usually happens at the fuel dock?

The fuel dock is the safety verification of the fueling system.
Do the tanks get loaded in the expected order?
Any leaks or faults? (It happens, sometimes bad.)
Is the aircraft fuel metering accurate?
Level sensors accurate?
Does fuel distribution redistribute when an intentional mis-fill occurs?
Can the aircraft unload fuel on command?
Once partially unloaded, can the aircraft pump fuel to redistribute weight (for the aircraft, such as the 787, that have the pumps).
Does the fuel innerting system work?
Are tanks maintained within specified pressures at maximum and minimum fueling rates?
Do the tanks hold the minimum contract capacity? (There was significant variation in the old days, before say 1998, not all aircraft passed on the high end).



The initial engine runs complete the fuel system testing.



Lightsaber


since this plane has run engines before and done some preflight taxi tests, there would be no reason to redo those tests even if the revised engines have arrived. as far a stretcher s if the fuel volume isn't up to specs.. well a wing stretcher is available either
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:00 pm

par13del wrote:
keesje wrote:
Boeing and the FAA have the opportunity to implement the more general certification recommendations of the JATR report on 777-9 certification.

https://www.faa.gov/news/media/attachments/Final_JATR_Submittal_to_FAA_Oct_2019.pdf

If they do not, I'm not sure how foreign authorities taking part in the JATR report will move ahead on accepting the 777-9 with their local airlines.

So the problems discovered with the 777X certification that requires fixing are?


The certification process, delegated responsibilities, grandfathered requirements, exemptions , special waivering, FAA oversight. Something pops up (or out)
and independent people take a look, ask questions. Now the pressure is on to not hide stuff.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
2175301
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:26 pm

keesje wrote:
par13del wrote:
keesje wrote:
Boeing and the FAA have the opportunity to implement the more general certification recommendations of the JATR report on 777-9 certification.

https://www.faa.gov/news/media/attachments/Final_JATR_Submittal_to_FAA_Oct_2019.pdf

If they do not, I'm not sure how foreign authorities taking part in the JATR report will move ahead on accepting the 777-9 with their local airlines.

So the problems discovered with the 777X certification that requires fixing are?


The certification process, delegated responsibilities, grandfathered requirements, exemptions , special waivering, FAA oversight. Something pops up (or out)
and independent people take a look, ask questions. Now the pressure is on to not hide stuff.


I believe that keesje has a point. I have avoided direct comment on the JTAR report as I only skimmed it the other day. I am hoping to have the time to fully read and review it in detail today or tomorrow.

Based on my skim review the other day: The biggest single key that I recall is that the existing (past) grandfather certification process involved you certifying each change individually; without an overall review of how "in total" all the changes affected the operation of an aircraft and pilot work load under different situations. That while it may be perfectly OK to consider adding a task or distraction to the pilots... that multiple changes adding tasks or distractions affect overall pilot loading, which can create design issues.

What I consider the 2nd key point is a review of the expected pilot response times to events.... My recollection that the 3 second rule has no relevance to real world flying. That it is only relevant to a controlled single issue test with test pilots who know exactly what to expect and are specifically trained in how to respond for the test (and are watching for it as the only reason to fly that day is to perform that test).

Now how much of these - and the other items - can and will be incorporated into the 777X review... is hard to say. But, I am quite sure that both Boeing and the FAA will at least do a review of overall cumulative pilot duties and some kind of review on response times. I do not expect these reviews to be as well defined or even have as clear of standards for what will almost certainly exist in the future as I doubt any really good real world response time standards exist at this time (something to be developed - and I suspect the international community will do it jointly). But, they will be a move in the right direction.

I believe there will be movement on some of the other recommendations as well. However, my memory is that some of them will require congressional actions regarding FAA/Boeing duties and interface, and appropriate funding for the FAA to implement changes.

Edited to add: To sum up; both Boeing and the FAA will do what is easy to do along with what will be most significant (review of overall effects of all changes on pilot loading and response times). They will not be able to do all the item; and it will not hold up certification by much (perhaps 3 months). It will be acknowledged as a compromise of moving in the right direction vs waiting several years before all the details of regulations and implementation of the JTAR (and NTSB) recommendations are worked out.

Have a great day,
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:07 pm

I agree it would be a major operation to step away from grandfathered certification of the 777-9, it seems unlikely.

The question is who will approve those exemptions if JATR recommendations are not/hardly implemented, new special conditions are granted while those in charge are fully aware of the JATR findings and recommendations. They wrote them.

Root causes of e.g. the blown out cargo door will be reviewed in a less cooperative, forgiving way.

Will German, English and Chinese authorities turn a blind eye?
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VV
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:29 pm

Is the aircraft still at fuel station?
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:32 pm

keesje wrote:
par13del wrote:
keesje wrote:
Boeing and the FAA have the opportunity to implement the more general certification recommendations of the JATR report on 777-9 certification.

https://www.faa.gov/news/media/attachments/Final_JATR_Submittal_to_FAA_Oct_2019.pdf

If they do not, I'm not sure how foreign authorities taking part in the JATR report will move ahead on accepting the 777-9 with their local airlines.

So the problems discovered with the 777X certification that requires fixing are?


The certification process, delegated responsibilities, grandfathered requirements, exemptions , special waivering, FAA oversight. Something pops up (or out)
and independent people take a look, ask questions. Now the pressure is on to not hide stuff.

So what responsibilities have been delegated illegally, what grandfather requirements have been violated, what additional exemptions have granted that compromise safety, what special waivers have been given? The MAX debacle has released a flood of whistle blowers so the specifics should be readily available, no need to speculate.

Now if you are just saying that everything Boeing does goes under a microscope then you should go full force on the 787 after all, we have quality issues in the south and the planned increase to 14 per year, would it not be better to focus on that frame which is flying daily versus one that is not yet in service, since this is a safety issue as you claim, which is more important?
 
Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:36 pm

VV wrote:
Is the aircraft still at fuel station?


Yes
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:39 pm

So we are satisfied that all of the certification authority that the FAA delegated to Boeing on the 787 were fine, except for the minor issue with the batteries? Shocked they have glossed over that one, it was pretty big news when it happened.

As for improvement for the 777X process, they need to specifically state what authority they want the FAA to claw back, failing that, just detail where the rules were broken. Or better yet, they along with the FAA just spend the time going over all the documentation in detail rather the relying on Boeing summaries.
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:53 pm

par13del wrote:
So we are satisfied that all of the certification authority that the FAA delegated to Boeing on the 787 were fine, except for the minor issue with the batteries? Shocked they have glossed over that one, it was pretty big news when it happened.

As for improvement for the 777X process, they need to specifically state what authority they want the FAA to claw back, failing that, just detail where the rules were broken. Or better yet, they along with the FAA just spend the time going over all the documentation in detail rather the relying on Boeing summaries.


I think the certification process is well defined.

The certification basis is usually already agreed at launch as well as the means of compliance.

Basically both the aircraft manufacturer (and suppliers) agree with the regulators on the certification basis and then the manufacturer (and also suplliers) agree on the way they should demonstrate compliance. Then the manufacturer (and suppliers) do exactly what is agreed and that's it.

The can be special conditions if there are features that are novelties. Basically, the regulators must work with the manufacturer on the feature(s) on what is meant by safe and then they agree on the way to demonstrate compliance to the special conditions.

Perhaps one day the special conditions could become regulators too.

I may have oversimplified the process, but that's the main thing.

For example, the basis for certification of the folding wingtips is in some special conditions. Both Boeing and FAA agreed on the safety criteria and then they agreed on the method of compliance.

The regulator doesn't do the certification. Boeing does the work, following the agreed means of compliance.

The principle is the same at EASA or TCCA or with any regulator.
 
2175301
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:47 pm

VV wrote:
par13del wrote:
So we are satisfied that all of the certification authority that the FAA delegated to Boeing on the 787 were fine, except for the minor issue with the batteries? Shocked they have glossed over that one, it was pretty big news when it happened.

As for improvement for the 777X process, they need to specifically state what authority they want the FAA to claw back, failing that, just detail where the rules were broken. Or better yet, they along with the FAA just spend the time going over all the documentation in detail rather the relying on Boeing summaries.


I think the certification process is well defined.

The certification basis is usually already agreed at launch as well as the means of compliance.

Basically both the aircraft manufacturer (and suppliers) agree with the regulators on the certification basis and then the manufacturer (and also suplliers) agree on the way they should demonstrate compliance. Then the manufacturer (and suppliers) do exactly what is agreed and that's it.

The can be special conditions if there are features that are novelties. Basically, the regulators must work with the manufacturer on the feature(s) on what is meant by safe and then they agree on the way to demonstrate compliance to the special conditions.

Perhaps one day the special conditions could become regulators too.

I may have oversimplified the process, but that's the main thing.

For example, the basis for certification of the folding wingtips is in some special conditions. Both Boeing and FAA agreed on the safety criteria and then they agreed on the method of compliance.

The regulator doesn't do the certification. Boeing does the work, following the agreed means of compliance.

The principle is the same at EASA or TCCA or with any regulator.


While I agree that the certification process for the 777X was defined up front. I also believe that both Boeing and the FAA will now get together and negotiate a change based on the recent findings concerning the improvements that could be made. There will be movement towards implementation of the key items in those findings; but, I believe that the certification process will not be long delayed by the changes. There are many benefits from doing so. As with many things... it will be the next major "upgrade" project in the world that will face most of the impact of these recommendations. I do believe that EASA and other national authorities recognize that they have some of the same historical process issues - not necessarily all of them; and that both reports will drive improvements world wide.

Have a great day,
 
airnorth
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:57 pm

Please open another thread dealing with 777x certification, all of that discussion has no place in the testing thread.

Thanks.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:07 am

airnorth wrote:
Please open another thread dealing with 777x certification, all of that discussion has no place in the testing thread.

Thanks.


Agree. Some posters apparently needed a new place to open up the same dialogue that they’ve covered in 10 other threads. Leave this one alone.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:17 am

Well the issue in this testing thread is that they are claiming that the certification of the 777X will be delayed or prolonged due to some issues raised in the JTAR report while providing no specifics of anything done wrong to date.
We have two issues so far in testing, the engines and the hatch blow out, I have not seen anything else.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:32 am

VV wrote:
par13del wrote:
So we are satisfied that all of the certification authority that the FAA delegated to Boeing on the 787 were fine, except for the minor issue with the batteries? Shocked they have glossed over that one, it was pretty big news when it happened.

As for improvement for the 777X process, they need to specifically state what authority they want the FAA to claw back, failing that, just detail where the rules were broken. Or better yet, they along with the FAA just spend the time going over all the documentation in detail rather the relying on Boeing summaries.


I think the certification process is well defined.

The certification basis is usually already agreed at launch as well as the means of compliance.

Basically both the aircraft manufacturer (and suppliers) agree with the regulators on the certification basis and then the manufacturer (and also suplliers) agree on the way they should demonstrate compliance. Then the manufacturer (and suppliers) do exactly what is agreed and that's it.

The can be special conditions if there are features that are novelties. Basically, the regulators must work with the manufacturer on the feature(s) on what is meant by safe and then they agree on the way to demonstrate compliance to the special conditions.

Perhaps one day the special conditions could become regulators too.

I may have oversimplified the process, but that's the main thing.

For example, the basis for certification of the folding wingtips is in some special conditions. Both Boeing and FAA agreed on the safety criteria and then they agreed on the method of compliance.

The regulator doesn't do the certification. Boeing does the work, following the agreed means of compliance.

The principle is the same at EASA or TCCA or with any regulator.


The point is just that the agreed upon basis could be flawed, due to the flawed certification system, that the review of the 737 certification showed up. There could be a review needed, If there was similar corner cutting done with the base of the certification in the 777X as in the 737MAX, and than the certification basis could be open to change.
You can be sure that the other regulators will have a more thorough look at certifications done by the FAA and Boeing today, than in the past.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:47 am

As echoed by other users, this thread is for 777X Testing. Other discussion belongs in other more appropriate threads.

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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:09 am

Stitch wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
Wouldn't the modified engines need to be flown on GE's 747 testbed before they'd be cleared to fly on the 779?


As it appears to be a durability issue and fix, lab testing should be more effective. I don't think they would learn anything from a short-duration flight test.


Correct. The wear issue is from the coating on the vanes not withstanding the temperatures. I’d be hesitant to read too much into a pair of engines installed for short duration testing possibly beginning in early Nov. I’m inclined to see different upgrades as new engines are delivered into the flight test program. Eventually meeting targets. GE does not have this ready to ship yet.
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JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:03 am

The engines that went back to GE, what testing is required at GE before Boeing can use in first flight. I realize the issue was about durability of some parts, but it seems prudent to do at least an on-ground test and a in-flight test.

It is driving me crazy all the delays.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:59 am

EK doesn't expect to take delivery of any 777X next year.

Emirates president Tim Clark says he does not expect to take any Boeing 777x in 2020
Emirates doubts it will receive any of the 115 Boeing 777-9s it has ordered next year, its president said on Monday, as the US planemaker grapples with challenges in building the jet. Emirates, a launch customer of the world’s biggest twin engined jet, was to receive its first 777-9 in 2020 but the manufacturer has suspended load testing of the plane. “… By the end of next year we were to have eight of them. Now it doesn’t look like we will have any,” Tim Clark said at a conference in Dubai.


 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:09 am

Emirates president says he does not expect to take any Boeing 777x in 2020

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-emir ... SKBN1WT0KJ


quote: Clark said he had told Boeing he insists on a 13 to 16 month test period for the new jet.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:27 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Emirates president says he does not expect to take any Boeing 777x in 2020

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-emir ... SKBN1WT0KJ


quote: Clark said he had told Boeing he insists on a 13 to 16 month test period for the new jet.



edit: 13 to 16 month from first flight to certification seems to me a rather normal standard test campaign. No test campaign in the last years, all using several test frames, has been less than 12 month. So I assume Tim Clark is reacting to the information that Boeing wants to run a very short (in time) test campaign on the 777-9 and does not agree with, that that would provide Emirates with reasonable mature frames at delivery right after certification.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:39 pm

There is no point in rushing things now. It takes as long as it takes. No airline wants some half backed baby with teething troubles and changes coming up. Especially as we are talking about new engines.
2020 looked not realistic for a longer time some EIS date until mid 2021 wouldn't be a drama.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:45 pm

Noshow wrote:
There is no point in rushing things now. It takes as long as it takes. No airline wants some half backed baby with teething troubles and changes coming up. Especially as we are talking about new engines.
2020 looked not realistic for a longer time some EIS date until mid 2021 wouldn't be a drama.


It is true there is not any necessity to rush things.

This said, it may be important they start gathering ETOPS data and build up the tests early.
There is not point having a 777-9 without ETOPS certification out of the box.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:17 pm

keesje wrote:
The certification process, delegated responsibilities, grandfathered requirements, exemptions , special waivering, FAA oversight. Something pops up (or out)
and independent people take a look, ask questions. Now the pressure is on to not hide stuff.

Meanwhile, over in viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1432797 you campaign for a new 767 variant that starts with decades older tech yet you raise no grandfathering/regulatory concerns, it's all systems go in that thread.

This is despite the fact that GEnX will be the third generation of engine to hang on its wings, needing new pylons, new gear, stronger wing box, new engine integration, along with lots of grandfathering to keep all the unchanged things the same so the budget does not blow up.

Why the concern about 777x which will have 787 systems that should make the 777x even more adaptable to change, whereas no concerns about 70s vintage 767 design features that Boeing won't be changing due to the need to keep that project's costs low?

It seems odd that one would be enthusiastic about Boeing perpetuating an airplane with a cable and pulley actuator system while at the same time having concerns over adapting an even better FBW system to a first generation FBW airliner that has had a very good safety record.
Last edited by Revelation on Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:28 pm

Revelation wrote:
Meanwhile, over in viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1432797 you campaign for a new 767 variant that starts with decades older tech yet you raise no grandfathering/regulatory concerns, it's all systems go in that thread.

This is despite the fact that GEnX will be the third generation of engine to hang on its wings, needing new pylons, new gear, stronger wing box, new engine integration, along with lots of grandfathering to keep all the unchanged things the same so the budget does not blow up.

Why the concern about 777x which will have 787 systems that should make the 777x even more adaptable to change, whereas no concerns about 70s vintage 767 design features that Boeing won't be changing due to the need to keep that project's costs low?


I have to chuckle the amount of roadblocks get thrown up when it is Boeing proposing something that could be more competitive with an Airbus model. But on others it is "Boeing should do a 748 stretch" kind of thing, when it is the last thing Boeing should do. I suppose proposed Airbus improvements get similar in reverse, but I notice it less.

Grandfathering rules are to allow existing models to improve without having to comply with all that a new airplane requires. But these regulations should be adjusted that more safety improvements get in with these model updates. Or, are these added rules really necessary? perhaps not.

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