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kanban
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:43 pm

I suppose we could start a whole new thread on memories of incoming computing..

two items, Boeing was always conservative when initially going to computing... as late as 1995 I had a senior manager request some data (which had never been requested or captured) when I told him it didn't exist in the data base he says " where are the sorting machines, I'll show you how to wire a board to get what I need!" the last card sorter was hauled away in the late 80's.

And I recall the start up of a new tape driven machining tool... yes paper tape.. anyway it worked fine you fed the tape in and let it run.. unfortunately the techs that developed it never thought where the tape would go... and it ended up tangled in the machine until it stalled ruining the part.

back to the topic.. just because Boeing bought the machines from the same company that made the Airbus ones doesn't mean they were the same machines, capable of doing the same tasks etc. Airbus was doing the fuselage joins in the 80's with robotic drilling and riveting machines. Boeing has resisted for a long time and then decided to jump into big projects with little preparation and background other than vendor sales promises. They use some on the 787 but the process is different because the fuselage is a single piece.. that doesn't translate well to attaching floating panels to wobbly frames. however they will figure it out and be back with a stable reliable process.
 
xwb565
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:57 pm

Mr Clark has a few concerns about the structural failure.

http://www.airlineratings.com/news/emir ... -products/

The structural failure during ground stress tests in September at 1.48 times the ultimate load has alarmed me, the nature of the failure. I am thoroughly questioning exactly what actually happened during this failure. This wasn’t just a small crack, it was a major failure. I need to see exactly what they are going to do about that. Where it failed they didn’t appear to have any stress gages as they didn’t think it would fail there.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:22 pm

xwb565 wrote:
Mr Clark has a few concerns about the structural failure.

http://www.airlineratings.com/news/emir ... -products/

The structural failure during ground stress tests in September at 1.48 times the ultimate load has alarmed me, the nature of the failure. I am thoroughly questioning exactly what actually happened during this failure. This wasn’t just a small crack, it was a major failure. I need to see exactly what they are going to do about that. Where it failed they didn’t appear to have any stress gages as they didn’t think it would fail there.


Anyone looking to find a way to break their massive order would be concerned.
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:58 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
xwb565 wrote:
Mr Clark has a few concerns about the structural failure.

http://www.airlineratings.com/news/emir ... -products/

The structural failure during ground stress tests in September at 1.48 times the ultimate load has alarmed me, the nature of the failure. I am thoroughly questioning exactly what actually happened during this failure. This wasn’t just a small crack, it was a major failure. I need to see exactly what they are going to do about that. Where it failed they didn’t appear to have any stress gages as they didn’t think it would fail there.


Anyone looking to find a way to break their massive order would be concerned.

EK has significant exposure to the 777X, and has to-date, at least outwardly, been quite forgiving and muted in respect to the ongoing delays.

Placing billion dollar commercial aircraft orders, is very different to a multinational vehicle rental company ordering a new model, or you picking up your latest car purchase or lease.

Even you don't sit on your hands, waiting for the dealer to let you know when it's ready to collect. And how much fuss do new car buyers make if they find the slightest paint blemish or imperfection? On a USD20K car!

For Boeing, they have designed a niche model, with multiple air frame and engine issues, now spotlighted by the FAA and EASA as a result of the MAX, with a largely conditional order book. If you were the customer, you too would be on Boeing's case.

If only EK had been more proactive with their A380 orders, a NEO development would have been a firm contract condition.
 
xwb777
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:59 pm

I had a small discussion with a Boeing official at the Dubai Airshow. I asked him about who will be the first operator of the B779 globally and his reply was Lufthansa. Emirates will be the second operator of the type.

Regarding the B778, it will be developed and the timeline will change.
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:07 pm

xwb777 wrote:
I had a small discussion with a Boeing official at the Dubai Airshow. I asked him about who will be the first operator of the B779 globally and his reply was Lufthansa. Emirates will be the second operator of the type.

Regarding the B778, it will be developed and the timeline will change.


They already confirmed that the 777-8 will be developed and produced.

I think the difference between 777-9 and 777-8 is not so significant so the development time can be shorter and in addition some system can be certified by similarities.

I hope they will stretch the 777-8 by one or two seat rows compared to the latest known definition when they will freeze the configuration some time in 2020 or early 2021.
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:26 pm

VV wrote:
xwb777 wrote:
I had a small discussion with a Boeing official at the Dubai Airshow. I asked him about who will be the first operator of the B779 globally and his reply was Lufthansa. Emirates will be the second operator of the type.

Regarding the B778, it will be developed and the timeline will change.


They already confirmed that the 777-8 will be developed and produced.

I think the difference between 777-9 and 777-8 is not so significant so the development time can be shorter and in addition some system can be certified by similarities.

I hope they will stretch the 777-8 by one or two seat rows compared to the latest known definition when they will freeze the configuration some time in 2020 or early 2021.


Well then what you have is a B777-300ER with new wings and engines.
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:41 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
VV wrote:
xwb777 wrote:
I had a small discussion with a Boeing official at the Dubai Airshow. I asked him about who will be the first operator of the B779 globally and his reply was Lufthansa. Emirates will be the second operator of the type.

Regarding the B778, it will be developed and the timeline will change.


They already confirmed that the 777-8 will be developed and produced.

I think the difference between 777-9 and 777-8 is not so significant so the development time can be shorter and in addition some system can be certified by similarities.

I hope they will stretch the 777-8 by one or two seat rows compared to the latest known definition when they will freeze the configuration some time in 2020 or early 2021.


Well then what you have is a B777-300ER with new wings and engines.


Yes, I really wish the fuselage size would be similar to 777-300ER.

If my estimates is correct, doing that way will put the cost on per seat basis of the 777-8 at the same spot (withing my estimation accuracy) as the A350-1000.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:07 am

bikerthai wrote:
Rollouts has lost it's luster after the 787 rollout fiasco.


'Fiasco' is a rather a strong word. I do not see that the 787 rollout was any more of the use of smoke and mirrors by Boeing than occurred with the rollout of the 747 back in 1968.

A rollout is a big deal: it is when the public first get to see a new type in the flesh. Okay, in these days of everyone both having a camera in their pocket and being able to self-publish, the significance of that is diminished. But it is still a big milestone in a development programme of a new type.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:18 am

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... es-462145/

GE gives an update on the the GE9X. They say their certification of the engine will be completed this month as they have fixed the stator vane issue completely and once that is completed Boeing can begin flight tests. Can we see a first flight before the new year? I still have my bets on January 2020 though.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:40 pm

vhtje wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Rollouts has lost it's luster after the 787 rollout fiasco.


'Fiasco' is a rather a strong word. I do not see that the 787 rollout was any more of the use of smoke and mirrors by Boeing than occurred with the rollout of the 747 back in 1968.

A rollout is a big deal: it is when the public first get to see a new type in the flesh. Okay, in these days of everyone both having a camera in their pocket and being able to self-publish, the significance of that is diminished. But it is still a big milestone in a development programme of a new type.


The roll-out was initially not a fiasco.

Then the stories came out of how they'd rushed to make the date and presented a compromised airframe which would then need reworking... roll-out is now viewed with some scepticism.

Then the stories about how the first airframes are actually in quite bad shape and would take weeks to rebuild and they'd actually used non-aerospace parts to bolt the first one together and that they actually didn't document those non-standard items very well and that they're having trouble getting parts to mate at the Alenia factory, etc. etc... and the management line is *constantly* that first flight is just a couple of weeks away... but this drags on for months... Well *that's* when it became a fiasco.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:14 pm

VV wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
VV wrote:

They already confirmed that the 777-8 will be developed and produced.

I think the difference between 777-9 and 777-8 is not so significant so the development time can be shorter and in addition some system can be certified by similarities.

I hope they will stretch the 777-8 by one or two seat rows compared to the latest known definition when they will freeze the configuration some time in 2020 or early 2021.


Well then what you have is a B777-300ER with new wings and engines.


Yes, I really wish the fuselage size would be similar to 777-300ER.

If my estimates is correct, doing that way will put the cost on per seat basis of the 777-8 at the same spot (withing my estimation accuracy) as the A350-1000.


I doubt your calculation. The 777-9 got it's length to compete with the A350-1000 seat cost.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:24 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
I doubt your calculation. The 777-9 got it's length to compete with the A350-1000 seat cost.


By competing, I'd suspect they're shooting to beat it.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:06 pm

ssteve wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
I doubt your calculation. The 777-9 got it's length to compete with the A350-1000 seat cost.


By competing, I'd suspect they're shooting to beat it.


Shooting to beat it of course, managing that, doubtful, the A350-1000 did come in beating specs.
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:45 am

mjoelnir wrote:
VV wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:

Well then what you have is a B777-300ER with new wings and engines.


Yes, I really wish the fuselage size would be similar to 777-300ER.

If my estimates is correct, doing that way will put the cost on per seat basis of the 777-8 at the same spot (withing my estimation accuracy) as the A350-1000.


I doubt your calculation. The 777-9 got it's length to compete with the A350-1000 seat cost.


You can doubt anything. It is okay.
 
TropicalSky
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:35 pm

Sir Tim is shaking all the trees and putting everyone on notice -GET THE B77x CERTIFIED THE RIGHT WAY THE FIRST TIME.....apparently a test plane will be in DUBAI 2 months next yr starting in August to verify the engines meet SPECIFICATIONS
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... at-462394/
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:07 pm

I do not believe the 777X will run into similar problems like the MAX in certification.
The 777 starts off with a full blown FBW including all the needed redundancies. The 777 does not have amassed exemptions from rules. The things grandfathered from the 777 to the 777X, will not be ancient, but for the most part rather modern stuff.
The blow out of the cargo door happened slightly below 150% stress. The 150% are anyway arbitrary, safety would neither be reduced nor increased by moving that limit down to 148% or up to 152%.

So I do not expect special problems in certification, especially if it will be run concurrent and in agreement between several regulators, that would need to have a healthy exchange of views. The A350 certification was run concurrent between FAA and EASA.

What I do not believe in, is a reduced time flight testing and certification campaign. If the flight testing starts in January 2020, I expect certification 18 month later in the middle of 2021. Of course a serious issue, resulting in changes to the production frame, could delay that.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:52 pm

There’s a shadow of doubt on the 777x right now and I think that’s in-part to do with the fact that no one has actually seen it in the sky. Once the first flight happens I think a lot of that doubt will be broken
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:09 pm

Opus99 wrote:
There’s a shadow of doubt on the 777x right now and I think that’s in-part to do with the fact that no one has actually seen it in the sky. Once the first flight happens I think a lot of that doubt will be broken

I think the doubt comes from A380 being terminated, A35K sales being lukewarm and the current sweet spot in the market settling in around A359/B789 size.

I think a first flight will be a welcome sight, but airlines seeing the actual performance and in service reliability numbers will be of greater importance.

Right now we don't know if it will end up being a hit like 77W or a miss like A346 or something in between.

We do know it has 300 orders to fill so it has enough staying power to make it into the fleets and then what will matter is performance and reliability.
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xwb565
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:13 pm

Sir Tim putting Boeing on notice over the 777x

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ai-462434/

“The question of the 777Xs will be determined by when they can deliver them to us. We have to keep our business going at a pace and if people fall by the wayside then we’ll have to plug the gaps. Does that mean the A350-1000 has to be looked at? Maybe it does.”
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:21 pm

Revelation wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
There’s a shadow of doubt on the 777x right now and I think that’s in-part to do with the fact that no one has actually seen it in the sky. Once the first flight happens I think a lot of that doubt will be broken

I think the doubt comes from A380 being terminated, A35K sales being lukewarm and the current sweet spot in the market settling in around A359/B789 size.

I think a first flight will be a welcome sight, but airlines seeing the actual performance and in service reliability numbers will be of greater importance.

Right now we don't know if it will end up being a hit like 77W or a miss like A346 or something in between.

We do know it has 300 orders to fill so it has enough staying power to make it into the fleets and then what will matter is performance and reliability.

This is actually the prefect analysis of the 777x right now. It has enough orders to hold its ground for now but it could end up being a hit or a miss!
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:25 pm

xwb565 wrote:
Sir Tim putting Boeing on notice over the 777x

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ai-462434/

“The question of the 777Xs will be determined by when they can deliver them to us. We have to keep our business going at a pace and if people fall by the wayside then we’ll have to plug the gaps. Does that mean the A350-1000 has to be looked at? Maybe it does.”


An airline struggling to define its future that loves to be able to shift focus to the manufacturers.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:43 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
An airline struggling to define its future that loves to be able to shift focus to the manufacturers.


I'd argue EK has done a fair bit this week to define their future with their decision to reduce their 777X order by a bit, add the A350-900 (with the possibility of the A350-1000 later) and the 787-9 (with the possibility of the 787-10 later) and (presumably) cancel their intention to add the A330-900.

EK seems to be "right-sizing" their fleet to meet planned future traffic demands while continuing to focus on long-range frames that can also be used on short-range missions with minimal economic penalty.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:37 pm

Opus99 wrote:
There’s a shadow of doubt on the 777x right now and I think that’s in-part to do with the fact that no one has actually seen it in the sky. Once the first flight happens I think a lot of that doubt will be broken


I expect the 777-8 to be delayed indefinitely and a concentration by Boeing on the 777-9. If all the ordered 777X can be delivered as 777-9, while keeping the ordered numbers, it could be a financial plus.
The order book of the 777X has shrunk this year, but is still big enough.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:41 am

STC revealed that the 777x will actually be certified as a derivative of the 777 instead of as a brand new aircraft. What does this mean for the certification process?
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:56 am

That is not really news. It will be faster as just the amended parts need to be certified now and retained parts and systems can continue to use the existing certification. Still new engines are a big deal to certify.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:40 am

Noshow wrote:
That is not really news. It will be faster as just the amended parts need to be certified now and retained parts and systems can continue to use the existing certification. Still new engines are a big deal to certify.


Amended fuselage, new MLG, new wings, and new engines. And I assume amended systems to bring the pilot experience nearer to the 787. Just a few parts to test. :sarcastic:
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:18 am

Not sure how much flying it is going to save.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:35 am

They had originally scheduled a year of flight testing and certification only until EIS. Not sure how realistic that was.
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:42 am

Not realistic imho.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:44 am

Noshow wrote:
That is not really news. It will be faster as just the amended parts need to be certified now and retained parts and systems can continue to use the existing certification. Still new engines are a big deal to certify.


No no no no no.

That was probably the biggest outcome of the MAX debacle.

It is no longer good enough for an airframer to look at it from the bottom up. "Change a widget or doohickey and all we have to do is certify that new widget or doohickey". Now - the whole thing needs re examined from the top down.

Absolutely no way the FAA will wear Boeing trying to certify this on using the same approach as the MAX - it will have to be done with all of the JTAR recommendations incorporated. Imagine what would happen if a 777X went down with loss of all onboard due to a similar gaping chasm in FHAs/SSAs as MAX due to stinking shortcuts. The FAA's word simply wouldn't be worth s__t across the world.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:04 am

So you want to end any grandfathering in aviation? Good luck. Changes need to be made but they can happen by deeper and truly independent certification.
Finally it is not about making everything new but about making everything compliant and safe.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:57 am

Amiga500 wrote:
Noshow wrote:
That is not really news. It will be faster as just the amended parts need to be certified now and retained parts and systems can continue to use the existing certification. Still new engines are a big deal to certify.


No no no no no.

That was probably the biggest outcome of the MAX debacle.

It is no longer good enough for an airframer to look at it from the bottom up. "Change a widget or doohickey and all we have to do is certify that new widget or doohickey". Now - the whole thing needs re examined from the top down.

Absolutely no way the FAA will wear Boeing trying to certify this on using the same approach as the MAX - it will have to be done with all of the JTAR recommendations incorporated. Imagine what would happen if a 777X went down with loss of all onboard due to a similar gaping chasm in FHAs/SSAs as MAX due to stinking shortcuts. The FAA's word simply wouldn't be worth s__t across the world.

Trust me. They’re not using the same approach as the max. The FAA outsourced a lot of the certification of the max TO BOEING. Grandfathering might actually make sense on some parts of the aircraft that are actually the same. I mean if they can find parts that are actually the same.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:02 pm

Noshow wrote:
So you want to end any grandfathering in aviation? Good luck. Changes need to be made but they can happen by deeper and truly independent certification.
Finally it is not about making everything new but about making everything compliant and safe.


Where did I say they wanted to end grandfathering?

Do you know what grandfathering means?

Certifying an amendment post JTAR has much more than just certifying any changed parts.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:07 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Trust me. They’re not using the same approach as the max. The FAA outsourced a lot of the certification of the max TO BOEING. Grandfathering might actually make sense on some parts of the aircraft that are actually the same. I mean if they can find parts that are actually the same.


Not sure why I should trust you when your a bit off base!

The main authorities across the world (FAA/EASA/TC/etc) delegate authority to the OEMs. That is nothing new. It will be the same on 777X.

The degree of delegation may change a bit - the oversight of delegated authorities will change and the standards that systems integration has to meet will be much more exacting - working from top down as well as bottom up.

Grandfathering is still grandfathering. As long as the new bits to subsystems don't interact with the remaining old bits to detrimentally impact other subsystems or the overarching system(s). The process of examining whether that is the case or not will be much more thorough than before.
 
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glideslope
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:36 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-ge-wraps-up-ge9x-trials-as-777x-flight-tes-462145/

GE gives an update on the the GE9X. They say their certification of the engine will be completed this month as they have fixed the stator vane issue completely and once that is completed Boeing can begin flight tests. Can we see a first flight before the new year? I still have my bets on January 2020 though.


Mid Jan 2020 at the earliest. I think stating the Maturation Testing will be done in 10 days is optimistic by GE. We can expect a longer certification process on the type itself as well.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:12 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Noshow wrote:
That is not really news. It will be faster as just the amended parts need to be certified now and retained parts and systems can continue to use the existing certification. Still new engines are a big deal to certify.

Amended fuselage, new MLG, new wings, and new engines. And I assume amended systems to bring the pilot experience nearer to the 787. Just a few parts to test. :sarcastic:

It's funny, over in the 737 thread we read the big problem was trying to make relatively small changes (i.e. MCAS) work in a legacy environment.

Here with 777x we see all the big things being changed (MLG, wings, engines) and systems architecture converging on the 787 standard yet we still get snarky posts.

Would you feel better if Boeing tried to make new engines and new wings work with the 777 original systems architecture, even though that would present more issues akin to the MCAS problem on 737?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:20 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Trust me. They’re not using the same approach as the max. The FAA outsourced a lot of the certification of the max TO BOEING. Grandfathering might actually make sense on some parts of the aircraft that are actually the same. I mean if they can find parts that are actually the same.


Not sure why I should trust you when your a bit off base!

The main authorities across the world (FAA/EASA/TC/etc) delegate authority to the OEMs. That is nothing new. It will be the same on 777X.

The degree of delegation may change a bit - the oversight of delegated authorities will change and the standards that systems integration has to meet will be much more exacting - working from top down as well as bottom up.

Grandfathering is still grandfathering. As long as the new bits to subsystems don't interact with the remaining old bits to detrimentally impact other subsystems or the overarching system(s). The process of examining whether that is the case or not will be much more thorough than before.

You yourself just pointed out the changes that will probably happen. Which is the point I’m trying to make? So again it’s not like the certification of the Max.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:54 pm

Opus99 wrote:
You yourself just pointed out the changes that will probably happen. Which is the point I’m trying to make? So again it’s not like the certification of the Max.


I read your post as you were saying it wouldn't be certified like the MAX because the FAA wouldn't delegate authority to Boeing.

That will still happen.

Grandfathering will still happen on many parts that are unchanged. Just as grandfathering won't happen on parts that are unchanged. Grandfathering will also happen on many parts that have changed.

I think there is a common misunderstanding on a.net of what grandfathering actually means.


Grandfathering is the application of the regulatory framework at the time of the original type certificate to any amended certificate, with a number of exceptions as outlined by the regulator.


So:
(i) old parts can be grandfathered.
(ii) new parts can be grandfathered.
(iii) old parts can be certified with current regulations (non grandfathered).
(iv) and obviously new parts can be certified with current regulations.

where the parts fall in the above will be determined differently in a post JTAR world. That process will also be much more painstaking.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:04 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
You yourself just pointed out the changes that will probably happen. Which is the point I’m trying to make? So again it’s not like the certification of the Max.


I read your post as you were saying it wouldn't be certified like the MAX because the FAA wouldn't delegate authority to Boeing.

That will still happen.

Grandfathering will still happen on many parts that are unchanged. Just as grandfathering won't happen on parts that are unchanged. Grandfathering will also happen on many parts that have changed.

I think there is a common misunderstanding on a.net of what grandfathering actually means.


Grandfathering is the application of the regulatory framework at the time of the original type certificate to any amended certificate, with a number of exceptions as outlined by the regulator.


So:
(i) old parts can be grandfathered.
(ii) new parts can be grandfathered.
(iii) old parts can be certified with current regulations (non grandfathered).
(iv) and obviously new parts can be certified with current regulations.

where the parts fall in the above will be determined differently in a post JTAR world. That process will also be much more painstaking.

My bad, they wouldn’t delegate as much authority rather
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:07 pm

Opus99 wrote:
My bad, they wouldn’t delegate as much authority rather


Agreed :checkmark:
 
User avatar
Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:20 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Absolutely no way the FAA will wear Boeing trying to certify this on using the same approach as the MAX - it will have to be done with all of the JTAR recommendations incorporated.

I don't know that we can assert 777x was "trying to certify this on using the same approach as the MAX", it's a different project within the company run by different people with a very different scope of what is being changed and what technology base it is starting with.

I did look at JATR and thought R1 was the most relevant to this conversation:

Recommendation R1

Based on the JATR team’s observations and findings related to the application of the
Changed Product Rule to the certification of the flight control system of the B737 MAX,
JATR team members recommend that the FAA work with other civil aviation authorities to
revise the harmonized approach to the certification of changed products. Changed Product
Rules (e.g., 14 CFR §§ 21.19 & 21.101) and associated guidance (e.g., Advisory Circular
21.101-1B and FAA Orders 8110.4C and 8110.48A) should be revised to require a top-down
approach whereby every change is evaluated from an integrated whole aircraft system
perspective.
These revisions should include criteria for determining when core attributes of
an existing transport category aircraft design make it incapable of supporting the safety
advancements introduced by the latest regulations and should drive a design change or a
need for a new type certificate. The aircraft system includes the aircraft itself with all its
subsystems, the flight crew, and the maintenance crew.

We know the certification of the flight control system of the B737 MAX was very constrained by the strong desire to use the existing computer hardware and software whose roots go back to the 1970s and system architecture that goes back to the 1960s.

This provided the opportunity to treat MCAS as a point change in a larger unchanged system.

I personally would not assume that Boeing was able to convince FAA that the changes it was making to 777 were point changes nor would I assume they even attempted to do so, even before the MCAS tragedy or the JATR report happened.

I would also presume they are not recertifying everything from scratch nor would I suggest that JATR recommendations suggest that they do so.

It does recommend a top-down approach and it's hard for me to see how the 777X starting approach would be at odds with that.

Yes, 777X is "just another 777" and a lot of content is retained, but I don't see how you could test things like new engines, new wings, new MLG and new systems as independent point changes and avoid top down testing.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
mjoelnir
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Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:23 pm

Revelation wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Noshow wrote:
That is not really news. It will be faster as just the amended parts need to be certified now and retained parts and systems can continue to use the existing certification. Still new engines are a big deal to certify.

Amended fuselage, new MLG, new wings, and new engines. And I assume amended systems to bring the pilot experience nearer to the 787. Just a few parts to test. :sarcastic:

It's funny, over in the 737 thread we read the big problem was trying to make relatively small changes (i.e. MCAS) work in a legacy environment.

Here with 777x we see all the big things being changed (MLG, wings, engines) and systems architecture converging on the 787 standard yet we still get snarky posts.

Would you feel better if Boeing tried to make new engines and new wings work with the 777 original systems architecture, even though that would present more issues akin to the MCAS problem on 737?


I think the main difference between the 737 and 777 is the amount of exemptions from rules the 737 carries.

You have for example the man machine interface in the 737NG and MAX based on exemptions from the rules. The argument was, it cost to much to change that interface. So if you try to change anyway, the reason for the exemption disappears. Same with 16 G, or no slides for the over wing exits. Any part or design that you grandfathered with an rule exemption, gets critical when you try to change it.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:27 pm

Revelation wrote:
I personally would not assume that Boeing was able to convince FAA that the changes it was making to 777 were point changes nor would I assume they even attempted to do so, even before the MCAS tragedy or the JATR report happened.


Since the new approach will involve more time and money, you can be assured that Boeing looked to avoid it, if possible.

Revelation wrote:
I would also presume they are not recertifying everything from scratch nor would I suggest that JATR recommendations suggest that they do so.

It does recommend a top-down approach and it's hard for me to see how the 777X starting approach would be at odds with that.


Examining whether something needs recertified does not in itself mean recertifying that item. The net of examination will be cast much wider now. Whether that net catches much remains to be seen.

The 777X approach when they scoped and started the project in 2012/2013 will most certainly have aligned with the practice at the time. Which did not involve the same level of top-down examination as now.
 
MileHFL400
Posts: 776
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:42 am

Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:31 pm

Can we have some actual 777-9 updates instead of debates on grandfathering here please?
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:35 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
Can we have some actual 777-9 updates instead of debates on grandfathering here please?


Its not flying.

GE hope to get the engine fit for flight sometime between now and end of year.

Other than that, nothing to update.


So now back to examining the biggest risk to EIS schedule then...
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 13831
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:53 pm

.
Some existing parts of the 777X use grandfathered certification from the 77W, because they didn't change.

E.g. the forward cargo door.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 23905
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:14 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Examining whether something needs recertified does not in itself mean recertifying that item. The net of examination will be cast much wider now. Whether that net catches much remains to be seen.

I think we can presume the net would already contain the engines, the wings (and their related control surfaces), the MLG and the new system elements brought in from 787.

We were told by someone working on 777X that all these things are not being grandfathered/exempted, all changed systems are being certified to current regs.

I'm sure they're leveraging some aspects of earlier programs (i.e. wings and systems are descendants of 787) but unique with regard to certification due to size and scope.

Again, it's hard to see how these things would be certified using the same approach MCAS did because they are not layering new functionality on the existing design, they are in most cases replacing the old design.

Yet I could imagine the new regulatory environment will apply a bunch of additional scrutiny to design and test plans to make sure they did not take any shortcuts.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:19 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Can we have some actual 777-9 updates instead of debates on grandfathering here please?


Its not flying.

GE hope to get the engine fit for flight sometime between now and end of year.

Other than that, nothing to update.


So now back to examining the biggest risk to EIS schedule then...


And it seems that we are not allowed to discuss anything regarding the 777X, but here.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:19 pm

Revelation wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
Examining whether something needs recertified does not in itself mean recertifying that item. The net of examination will be cast much wider now. Whether that net catches much remains to be seen.

I think we can presume the net would already contain the engines, the wings (and their related control surfaces), the MLG and the new system elements brought in from 787.

We were told by someone working on 777X that all these things are not being grandfathered/exempted, all changed systems are being certified to current regs.

I'm sure they're leveraging some aspects of earlier programs (i.e. wings and systems are descendants of 787) but unique with regard to certification due to size and scope.


Just to take a simple example of something that might fall somewhere between the cracks...

Are they reusing the 777's FBW system? Avionics, flight control computer, software stack, cabling specs, actuators etc?

If so - the top down examination will have to carefully consider the effects of operating it within a composite structure (considering things like Lightening strike).
If not - does that mean a complete re-write of the 777s FBW software stack and possibly even changes to the FCC depending on computational workload?


As usual, the devil is in the details.

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