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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:54 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Just to take a simple example of something that might fall somewhere between the cracks...

Are they reusing the 777's FBW system? Avionics, flight control computer, software stack, cabling specs, actuators etc?

If so - the top down examination will have to carefully consider the effects of operating it within a composite structure (considering things like Lightening strike).
If not - does that mean a complete re-write of the 777s FBW software stack and possibly even changes to the FCC depending on computational workload?


As usual, the devil is in the details.

http://interactive.aviationtoday.com/av ... -avionics/ tells us the amount of change in the 777X systems is a lot bigger than you are envisioning.

Everything from displays to EFB to wireless connections to cameras to wired data busses to central processors to FDRs to sensors to FBW system to data management system to actuators are changing.

This article was written in 2017 so the scope of the changes had to be evident by then, thus part of the planning.

A lot of this stuff has its origins in the 787 but also a lot of it is changed or expanded upon for 777x so it will need its own certification activities.

An interesting quote from QR's CTO:

New capabilities with the touch-screen displays and customer experience network will be the biggest operational changes, while the CCS will be the biggest change on the avionics front. The fact that this is a “connected” aircraft will also enable more streamlined maintenance activities like remote fault diagnostics, sending software to the aircraft and getting data from the airplane. This will be new for the 777, but does exist today on the 787.

I think the new CCS with new and more powerful General Processing Units alone makes the avionics system as a whole a whole new certification effort, not to mention all the features/systems that did not even exist on 777 "classic".

This is not MCAS shoe horned into an existing FCC and existing flight control design with roots in the 60s/70s.
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Amiga500
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:15 pm

Hmm - if they are changing essentially everything bar the frames, keel and skin of the fuselage - how on earth did they get away with it as an amendment?!?!

Yeah - I didn't realise it would be that extensive - simply as I had assumed the FAA would never accept an amendment (to type cert) of such breadth and scope! [There may even be a risk they will go back on that decision now.]

So the certification effort should essentially be identical to that of a new aircraft. Which leaves me wondering why Boeing didn't go and change the fuselage structure while they were at it - they are already 80% there on cost and effort.
 
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kanban
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:38 pm

one thing to keep in mind the FAA needs funding to operate and successive legislatures have been cutting that funding and the sources of funding (taxes), this country's administative level have been tasked with reducing regulation and department head counts. When I worked with the FAA auditors coming to Boeing, they were seriously understaffed .... that has only become worse. Result is you will see more areas being grandfathered due to basic lack of funds and manpower. On the other hand all of the Boeing's designated engineers were more thorough than their FAA counterparts because of fewer time and budget constraints.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:45 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Hmm - if they are changing essentially everything bar the frames, keel and skin of the fuselage - how on earth did they get away with it as an amendment?!?!

Yeah - I didn't realise it would be that extensive - simply as I had assumed the FAA would never accept an amendment (to type cert) of such breadth and scope! [There may even be a risk they will go back on that decision now.]

So the certification effort should essentially be identical to that of a new aircraft. Which leaves me wondering why Boeing didn't go and change the fuselage structure while they were at it - they are already 80% there on cost and effort.

Yes, the scope is quite extensive.

I think we probably have not seen this much change on an amendment ever.

737NG changed pretty much everything except the cockpit and avionics design.

77X is also changing the cockpit and avionics design, and even changing the fuse to gain 4 inches in internal width and to support a new window belt.

The only thing being saved seems to be the tooling used to make the fuse, and things like floor beams.

https://leehamnews.com/2013/06/16/777x- ... r-the-737/ says:

During the pre-Paris Air Show media briefings by Boeing, we asked Scott Fancher, vice president and general manager of aircraft development, why Boeing didn’t go with an all-new fuselage. His answer:

“Our job is to harvest the investments in technology we’ve made over the last 10 years and translate those into value for our customers and value for Boeing,” said. The 787 required a new fuselage cross section compared with the 767, so Boeing had to go with all new tooling anyway and the composite fuselage was the result. The 777 fuselage cross-section remains unchanged, so the decision was made to harvest the hard-won 787 technology but retain a metal fuselage.

I guess the thought was that developing and certifying all the tech needed for a composite fuse of the 777x size was not justified, the gain wasn't worth the pain.

Also I think there were internal politics at play: 777x was launched in the aftermath of the 787 debacle and the BoD would not approve an "all new" airplane, so the engineers changed as much as they thought they could while not calling it an all new airplane.

Of course, with hindsight, Boeing should have done an all CFRP design that could capture the 772/A359 market with growth to 77W and beyond as per the old Yellowstone Y3 target, but that was a step too far for the BoD of the time. One does have to wonder what cost an all-CFRP fuse would have added to the R&D and production budgets, and of course making it impossible to certify via amendment. 25%?

The link from my earlier post has this quote:

The CCS uses an ARINC 664 Ethernet-based data bus, but there are also some systems that use ARINC 629 data bus that was developed for the original 777. These A629 signals are converted to an A664 signal via a data bus converter.

This is the only reference I could find to some "777 classic" stuff being retained on 777x.
Last edited by Revelation on Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Amiga500
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:53 pm

kanban wrote:
one thing to keep in mind the FAA needs funding to operate and successive legislatures have been cutting that funding and the sources of funding (taxes), this country's administative level have been tasked with reducing regulation and department head counts.


Well, given the triangle of any project that means the 777X will be delayed due to the FAA's underfunding.

>> The FAA simply cannot accept increased levels of delegation to Boeing due to International politics between regulators. [Quality]
>> The FAA cannot increase headcount significantly (as per your comments). [Cost]
>> Time is the third member of the triad. If you have to increase quality without an increase in cost that comes as a result of increased time taken.

Its one of the more fundamental things of any project. Powerpoint Rangers love to try and talk around it... but in the end it always wins.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:14 pm

kanban wrote:
one thing to keep in mind the FAA needs funding to operate and successive legislatures have been cutting that funding and the sources of funding (taxes), this country's administative level have been tasked with reducing regulation and department head counts. When I worked with the FAA auditors coming to Boeing, they were seriously understaffed .... that has only become worse. Result is you will see more areas being grandfathered due to basic lack of funds and manpower. On the other hand all of the Boeing's designated engineers were more thorough than their FAA counterparts because of fewer time and budget constraints.


It is even worse in the Building Construction arena, I turn in projects regularly for Permit review. I only get technical comments on the building structure calculations every few years, less than 1% of my designs. They see my stamp on the drawings and just accept the work. I would prefer an actual review to ensure the public safety. But there are regular comments regarding meeting the Energy Code but rarely on life safety, their official responsibility.
 
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747classic
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:17 am

Just before roll out of the next 777-9 for Emirates :

WH009, KPAE, November 21th 2019, most probably L/N 1620?

Image

Original uploaded by Matt Cawby at twitter, see : https://twitter.com/mattcawby/status/11 ... 6766018561
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:49 am

747classic wrote:
Just before roll out of the next 777-9 for Emirates :

WH009, KPAE, November 21th 2019, most probably L/N 1620?

Image

Original uploaded by Matt Cawby at twitter, see : https://twitter.com/mattcawby/status/11 ... 6766018561

Why are they making so many before first flight even. During certification will they ALL be flying?
 
pugman211
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:57 am

747classic wrote:
Just before roll out of the next 777-9 for Emirates :

WH009, KPAE, November 21th 2019, most probably L/N 1620?

Image

Original uploaded by Matt Cawby at twitter, see : https://twitter.com/mattcawby/status/11 ... 6766018561


Looks like the one behind is also for Emirates. And then there is a 3rd set of wings behind that also. All in all, the program looks well established.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:23 am

Opus99 wrote:
Why are they making so many before first flight even. During certification will they ALL be flying?


Optimism? No, not all will be flying, AFAIK they want to use 6 frames.
 
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747classic
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:31 am

Opus99 wrote:
Why are they making so many before first flight even. During certification will they ALL be flying?


No, afaik only the first four were original scheduled for flight testing. Perhaps to speed up the certification and to counter the present delay, due engine issues, more aircraft may be involved.

777-9 production (as far present in my spreadsheet up to now) :

L/N 1567 C/N 64240 B777-9 N779XW BOEING COMPANY (WH001)
L/N 1574 C/N 64241 B777-9 N779XX BOEING COMPANY (WH002)
L/N 1581 C/N 65799 B777-9 N779XY BOEING COMPANY (WH003), future LUFTHANSA D-ABTA ?
L/N 1587 C/N 65800 B777-9 N779XZ BOEING COMPANY (WH004), future LUFTHANSA D-ABTB ?
L/N 1605 C/N 61935 B777-9 N779PV A6-EZD EMIRATES (WH006)
L/N 1611 C/N xxxxxx B777-9 A6-EZT EMIRATES (WH007)
L/N 1615 C/N xxxxxx B777-9 A6-EZM EMIRATES (WH008)
L/N 1620 C/N xxxxxx B777-9 A6-EZ? EMIRATES (WH009)
L.N 1624 ?
L/N 1629 C/N xxxxxx B777-9 JA071A ALL NIPPON AIRWAYS (WH???)

Perhaps others can add more info ?
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:46 am

747classic wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Why are they making so many before first flight even. During certification will they ALL be flying?


No, afaik only the first four were original scheduled for flight testing. Perhaps to speed up the certification and to counter the present delay, due engine issues, more aircraft may be involved.

777-9 production (as far present in my spreadsheet up to now) :

L/N 1567 C/N 64240 B777-9 N779XW BOEING COMPANY (WH001)
L/N 1574 C/N 64241 B777-9 N779XX BOEING COMPANY (WH002)
L/N 1581 C/N 65799 B777-9 N779XY BOEING COMPANY (WH003), future LUFTHANSA D-ABTA ?
L/N 1587 C/N 65800 B777-9 N779XZ BOEING COMPANY (WH004), future LUFTHANSA D-ABTB ?
L/N 1605 C/N 61935 B777-9 N779PV A6-EZD EMIRATES (WH006)
L/N 1611 C/N xxxxxx B777-9 A6-EZT EMIRATES (WH007)
L/N 1615 C/N xxxxxx B777-9 A6-EZM EMIRATES (WH008)
L/N 1620 C/N xxxxxx B777-9 A6-EZ? EMIRATES (WH009)
L.N 1624 ?
L/N 1629 C/N xxxxxx B777-9 JA071A ALL NIPPON AIRWAYS (WH???)

Perhaps others can add more info ?


That's all correct. 1633 is ANA as well. Pictured above is 1624 though. 1620 was already out of the building at the time the picture was taken
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:56 am

Opus99 wrote:
747classic wrote:
Just before roll out of the next 777-9 for Emirates :

WH009, KPAE, November 21th 2019, most probably L/N 1620?

Image

Original uploaded by Matt Cawby at twitter, see : https://twitter.com/mattcawby/status/11 ... 6766018561

Why are they making so many before first flight even. During certification will they ALL be flying?

Keep in mind if things had been going to plan the 77X should have been flying for over 6 months now. It doesn’t make sense to stop 77X production if it is the engines holding things up.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:23 am

Polot wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
747classic wrote:
Just before roll out of the next 777-9 for Emirates :

WH009, KPAE, November 21th 2019, most probably L/N 1620?

Image

Original uploaded by Matt Cawby at twitter, see : https://twitter.com/mattcawby/status/11 ... 6766018561

Why are they making so many before first flight even. During certification will they ALL be flying?

Keep in mind if things had been going to plan the 77X should have been flying for over 6 months now. It doesn’t make sense to stop 77X production if it is the engines holding things up.

Yeah that makes sense
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:58 am

Spetsnaz55 wrote:

That's all correct. 1633 is ANA as well. Pictured above is 1624 though. 1620 was already out of the building at the time the picture was taken


The picture, showing an aircraft with the pushback truck already connected, has been posted at 20:34 LT (8:34 PM) with the following tekst : "777-9 WH009 will be moved out of the Everett factory to stall 113 on the flightline at 8:45 PM"

See : https://twitter.com/mattcawby/status/11 ... 6766018561

So the roll-out has NOT started yet and L/N 1620 is pictured in front here, but we can always ask Matt for confirmation..
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:40 pm

Opus99 wrote:
747classic wrote:
Just before roll out of the next 777-9 for Emirates :

WH009, KPAE, November 21th 2019, most probably L/N 1620?

Image

Original uploaded by Matt Cawby at twitter, see : https://twitter.com/mattcawby/status/11 ... 6766018561

Why are they making so many before first flight even. During certification will they ALL be flying?


Even if certification is delayed,. They still have to deliver to customer on/before contractual dates or face penalties. If certification is delayed, then they will have to deal with the first few customers, but they do not want to have the domino effect to the rest.

It's a risk reward calculation. Also, changing production rate require much planning to adjust manpower and subcontractors contracts. Like a big ship, you can not turn on a dime.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:44 pm

747classic wrote:
Spetsnaz55 wrote:

That's all correct. 1633 is ANA as well. Pictured above is 1624 though. 1620 was already out of the building at the time the picture was taken


The picture, showing an aircraft with the pushback truck already connected, has been posted at 20:34 LT (8:34 PM) with the following tekst : "777-9 WH009 will be moved out of the Everett factory to stall 113 on the flightline at 8:45 PM"

See : https://twitter.com/mattcawby/status/11 ... 6766018561

So the roll-out has NOT started yet and L/N 1620 is pictured in front here, but we can always ask Matt for confirmation..


I work in that building. That picture posted looks to be a stock picture and the factory currently doesn't look like that. Once again 1620 is now out and 1624 still in here..

You can ask Matt for confirmation
 
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747classic
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:27 am

L/N 1620 C/N xxxxxx B777-9 A6-EZA EMIRATES (WH009)

See Matt Cawby's Paine Field blog of Nov 22th : http://kpae.blogspot.com/2019/11/paine- ... er-22.html OR http://www.paineairport.com/kpae17974rq.htm
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:13 am

747classic wrote:
L/N 1620 C/N xxxxxx B777-9 A6-EZA EMIRATES (WH009)

See Matt Cawby's Paine Field blog of Nov 22th : http://kpae.blogspot.com/2019/11/paine- ... er-22.html OR http://www.paineairport.com/kpae17974rq.htm

Within that post you’ll also see that WH001 had an initial engine run at 10pm yesterday
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:07 am

bikerthai wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
747classic wrote:
Just before roll out of the next 777-9 for Emirates :

WH009, KPAE, November 21th 2019, most probably L/N 1620?

Image

Original uploaded by Matt Cawby at twitter, see : https://twitter.com/mattcawby/status/11 ... 6766018561

Why are they making so many before first flight even. During certification will they ALL be flying?


Even if certification is delayed,. They still have to deliver to customer on/before contractual dates or face penalties. If certification is delayed, then they will have to deal with the first few customers, but they do not want to have the domino effect to the rest.

It's a risk reward calculation. Also, changing production rate require much planning to adjust manpower and subcontractors contracts. Like a big ship, you can not turn on a dime.

bt


The biggest risk is, that they have to rework the frames, because of changes due to things found during test flight leading to certification. With the 787 the number of frames needed to be reworked was high. Quite a few barely salable and two had to be scraped. Quite a few overweight early frames operating.

I am astonished Boeing runs that risk again.
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:27 am

Opus99 wrote:
747classic wrote:
L/N 1620 C/N xxxxxx B777-9 A6-EZA EMIRATES (WH009)

See Matt Cawby's Paine Field blog of Nov 22th : http://kpae.blogspot.com/2019/11/paine- ... er-22.html OR http://www.paineairport.com/kpae17974rq.htm

Within that post you’ll also see that WH001 had an initial engine run at 10pm yesterday


That’s wonderful news. Does that mean we ll see taxi tests in early December ?
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:48 am

They could sent it to Palmdale to catch up in initial flight testing during the winter? Hope those engines are good to go now.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:37 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
747classic wrote:
L/N 1620 C/N xxxxxx B777-9 A6-EZA EMIRATES (WH009)

See Matt Cawby's Paine Field blog of Nov 22th : http://kpae.blogspot.com/2019/11/paine- ... er-22.html OR http://www.paineairport.com/kpae17974rq.htm

Within that post you’ll also see that WH001 had an initial engine run at 10pm yesterday


That’s wonderful news. Does that mean we ll see taxi tests in early December ?

Most likely. Maybe even before December kicks off
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:16 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
I am astonished Boeing runs that risk again.


One difference is that the test failed at the metallic section of the fuselage which would make the redesign a lot easier.

The other difference was the delay on the 787 also had a lot to do with long lead fasteners among other things which hopefully Boeing will avoid this time around. :pray:

Still it would have been nice to see the wing at full flex.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Lukas757
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:55 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Why are they making so many before first flight even. During certification will they ALL be flying?


Even if certification is delayed,. They still have to deliver to customer on/before contractual dates or face penalties. If certification is delayed, then they will have to deal with the first few customers, but they do not want to have the domino effect to the rest.

It's a risk reward calculation. Also, changing production rate require much planning to adjust manpower and subcontractors contracts. Like a big ship, you can not turn on a dime.

bt


The biggest risk is, that they have to rework the frames, because of changes due to things found during test flight leading to certification. With the 787 the number of frames needed to be reworked was high. Quite a few barely salable and two had to be scraped. Quite a few overweight early frames operating.

I am astonished Boeing runs that risk again.


Boeing is in the business long enough to understand how mature their product is, and as others have said, it's not easy to slow down production short term. So far, the only known issues with the 777X are with the engines and the blown out cargo door. An engine rework of course would not justify a halt of the production, as the frame itself would not need any rework. The cargo door issue seems to be minor, and if there is some rework needed, it would be at some specific spot of the airframe, not all over as it was the case with the 787. Pretty sure they know the OEW by now, and if it's within promised margin even with some rework needed around that cargo door. And keep in mind, even if you halt the production, you might need quite some time to bring the updates on the manufacturing line. That could result in some heavy delays. Sometimes it's just cheaper to do the rework on the frames afterwards.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:38 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
The biggest risk is, that they have to rework the frames, because of changes due to things found during test flight leading to certification. With the 787 the number of frames needed to be reworked was high. Quite a few barely salable and two had to be scraped. Quite a few overweight early frames operating.

I am astonished Boeing runs that risk again.


It's a risk but I'm sure Boeing has analysed and costed out that risk. The risk will have also been balanced against the costs associated with reducing, then increasing production rates as well. I'm sure there was an absolute minimum 777 production rate that Boeing didn't want to drop below (not forgetting that for a long time they denied any reduction in production rate would be required during transition to 777X).
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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xwb777
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:06 pm

I dont know if it has been posted before. Boeing will be flying a B777X to Dubai for testing in August 2020.

Link: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... at-462394/
 
blacksoviet
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:36 am

Can the 777-9 be further stretched to replace the 747-400?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:54 am

bikerthai wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
I am astonished Boeing runs that risk again.


One difference is that the test failed at the metallic section of the fuselage which would make the redesign a lot easier.

The other difference was the delay on the 787 also had a lot to do with long lead fasteners among other things which hopefully Boeing will avoid this time around. :pray:

Still it would have been nice to see the wing at full flex.

bt


The fasteners were before first flight of the 787. The problem were the changes that were needed due things discovered during certification flights and that the first frames were not to specs.
It is costly to rework 20 frames after certification.
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:45 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Can the 777-9 be further stretched to replace the 747-400?


Why do you want to "replace" 747-400?
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:29 am

VV wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Can the 777-9 be further stretched to replace the 747-400?


Why do you want to "replace" 747-400?

Well it really already is. At least for BA
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:38 am

Opus99 wrote:
VV wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Can the 777-9 be further stretched to replace the 747-400?


Why do you want to "replace" 747-400?

Well it really already is. At least for BA


With a stretched 777-9???????
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:02 am

VV wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
VV wrote:

Why do you want to "replace" 747-400?

Well it really already is. At least for BA


With a stretched 777-9???????

Not with a stretched 777-9 sorry, the current 777-9
 
Scotron12
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:44 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Can the 777-9 be further stretched to replace the 747-400?


The only replacement for the 744 is the 779 or 350-1000...or if you hurry...you can pick up cheap end of line 777ers. No other aircraft comes close capacity wise.

Many carriers are opting for a mix of 350/787 as replacements as the choice and options offered were not available or affordable before.
 
Ronaldo747
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:48 pm

The 777-9 will replace the 744 at LH as well. They even adopt the ex LH 744 combi regs D-ABT* series, through 744 D-ABTK and D-ABTL are still active and both are still quite young as well.
 
Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:17 pm

First flight will be before end of the year
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:26 pm

Spetsnaz55 wrote:
First flight will be before end of the year

I can believe that
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:28 pm

Revelation wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
I think the main point to the puzzle is, that Boeings management just do not care about running up early production cost, they just defer them.

It's interesting you reach this conclusion after being told several times in this thread that there is a big cost to idling the production line, and that cost ripples up and down the entire supply chain, and adds cost/risk to the restart of the production line.

I think a more reasonable view is that Boeing management is taking a calculated risk that the cost of any rework is smaller than the cost of idling the production line and missing scheduled delivery dates for the frames not produced during the idle period, as well as delaying every frame after the ones not produced as well.

This is exactly that calculated risk. Sometimes rework is extensive. Usually it is waiting for the new components.

Lightsaber
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mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:38 pm

Revelation wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
I think the main point to the puzzle is, that Boeings management just do not care about running up early production cost, they just defer them.

It's interesting you reach this conclusion after being told several times in this thread that there is a big cost to idling the production line, and that cost ripples up and down the entire supply chain, and adds cost/risk to the restart of the production line.

I think a more reasonable view is that Boeing management is taking a calculated risk that the cost of any rework is smaller than the cost of idling the production line and missing scheduled delivery dates for the frames not produced during the idle period, as well as delaying every frame after the ones not produced as well.


They do not have to idle the production, just slow down and do the rest of the 777-300ER and 777F. Frames that need rework are delayed anyway, often more than frames build right from the start. Rework is time consuming and expensive.
 
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747classic
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:01 am

Ronaldo747 wrote:
The 777-9 will replace the 744 at LH as well. They even adopt the ex LH 744 combi regs D-ABT* series, through 744 D-ABTK and D-ABTL are still active and both are still quite young as well.


Reserved registrations for future LH 777-9 fleet :

1 D-ABTA B777-9 1581 2021 FRA LH on order
2 D-ABTB B777-9 1587 2021 FRA LH on order
3 D-ABTC B777-9 -------2021 FRA LH on order
4 D-ABTD B777-9 -------2021 FRA LH on order
5 D-ABTE B777-9 -------2021 FRA LH on order
6 D-ABTF B777-9 -------2021 FRA LH on order
7 D-ABTG B777-9 -------2021 FRA LH on order
8 D-ABTH B777-9 -------2021 FRA LH on order
9 D-ABTI B777-9 --------2022 FRA LH on order
10 D-ABTJ B777-9 ------2022 FRA LH on order
11 D-ABTM B777-9----- 2022 FRA LH on order
12 D-ABTN B777-9----- 2022 FRA LH on order
13 D-ABTO B777-9---------- FRA LH on order
14 D-ABTP B777-9---------- FRA LH on order
15 D-ABTQ B777-9---------- FRA LH on order
16 D-ABTR B777-9---------- FRA LH on order
17 D-ABTS B777-9---------- FRA LH on order
18 D-ABTT B777-9---------- FRA LH on order
19 D-ABTU B777-9---------- FRA LH on order
20 D-ABTV B777-9---------- FRA LH on order

Note : D-ABTK and D-ABTL (used for the last built LH 744's ) are skipped.

See : https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/lufthansa
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:51 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Revelation wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
I think the main point to the puzzle is, that Boeings management just do not care about running up early production cost, they just defer them.

It's interesting you reach this conclusion after being told several times in this thread that there is a big cost to idling the production line, and that cost ripples up and down the entire supply chain, and adds cost/risk to the restart of the production line.

I think a more reasonable view is that Boeing management is taking a calculated risk that the cost of any rework is smaller than the cost of idling the production line and missing scheduled delivery dates for the frames not produced during the idle period, as well as delaying every frame after the ones not produced as well.


They do not have to idle the production, just slow down and do the rest of the 777-300ER and 777F. Frames that need rework are delayed anyway, often more than frames build right from the start. Rework is time consuming and expensive.

GE9x passed durability testing:
http://m.aviationweek.com/aircraft-prop ... x-retrofit

A start of flight testing as soon as January. :hyper:

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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:05 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
They do not have to idle the production, just slow down and do the rest of the 777-300ER and 777F. Frames that need rework are delayed anyway, often more than frames build right from the start. Rework is time consuming and expensive.

Rework is expensive, but building 777 "classic" that the market isn't demanding is also expensive, white tails even more so. Still no justification for asserting "Boeings management just do not care about running up early production cost". They made the same decision on KC-46 with no ability to defer cost, that is coming out of Boeing's bottom line. Clearly the gain of keeping production line moving, ramping up 777x as early as possible and having product ready for scheduled deliveries outweighs the risk of costly rework.

lightsaber wrote:
GE9x passed durability testing:
http://m.aviationweek.com/aircraft-prop ... x-retrofit

A start of flight testing as soon as January.

Above we have insiders speculating that first flight may be in December, and that is always a test flight too.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:13 pm

Revelation wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
They do not have to idle the production, just slow down and do the rest of the 777-300ER and 777F. Frames that need rework are delayed anyway, often more than frames build right from the start. Rework is time consuming and expensive.

Rework is expensive, but building 777 "classic" that the market isn't demanding is also expensive, white tails even more so. Still no justification for asserting "Boeings management just do not care about running up early production cost". They made the same decision on KC-46 with no ability to defer cost, that is coming out of Boeing's bottom line. Clearly the gain of keeping production line moving, ramping up 777x as early as possible and having product ready for scheduled deliveries outweighs the risk of costly rework.

lightsaber wrote:
GE9x passed durability testing:
http://m.aviationweek.com/aircraft-prop ... x-retrofit

A start of flight testing as soon as January.

Above we have insiders speculating that first flight may be in December, and that is always a test flight too.

Things seem to be looking good at the moment. I hope the certification process goes smoothly. I’ve been waiting too long for this plane lol!
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:19 pm

Revelation wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
GE9x passed durability testing:
http://m.aviationweek.com/aircraft-prop ... x-retrofit

A start of flight testing as soon as January.

Above we have insiders speculating that first flight may be in December, and that is always a test flight too.

I'll take a 2019 first flight! I won't understand any fus if it is in January.

A friend of mine was hired as a Boeing test pilot. I think 2019 will be crazy busy!

Lightsaber
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morrisond
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:39 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Revelation wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
GE9x passed durability testing:
http://m.aviationweek.com/aircraft-prop ... x-retrofit

A start of flight testing as soon as January.

Above we have insiders speculating that first flight may be in December, and that is always a test flight too.

I'll take a 2019 first flight! I won't understand any fus if it is in January.

A friend of mine was hired as a Boeing test pilot. I think 2019 will be crazy busy!

Lightsaber


I assume you meant 2020?
 
TropicalSky
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:30 pm

Wow that's a lot changes they did on the GE-9x to get it right.....added an additional 20lbs
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:38 pm

TropicalSky wrote:
Wow that's a lot changes they did on the GE-9x to get it right.....added an additional 20lbs

I'm very curious what was solved? When I first read about the problem, I would have been on the phone to Timken and adding quite a cost, and weight, in bearings. I'd love to know the actual changes.

Lightsaber
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Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:12 pm

TropicalSky wrote:
Wow that's a lot changes they did on the GE-9x to get it right.....added an additional 20lbs

The way he’s described the changes and the modifications makes me somewhat more confident in the engines
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:27 pm

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iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:43 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
They do not have to idle the production, just slow down and do the rest of the 777-300ER and 777F. Frames that need rework are delayed anyway, often more than frames build right from the start. Rework is time consuming and expensive.


There is some overlap in production systems, but not complete overlap - carbon fiber vs. aluminum wings, most notably.

Whether it makes more sense to idle the relevant production teams, then re-train them and delay the production rate ramp up is a financial decision. It involves input from the engineers and production managers, but this is an example of a question that legitimately belongs to the "bean counters."

How much change work might have to be done is affected by the design maturity, and in turn affects the economics of the decision.

The 777X is a less technically ambitious project than the 787, and was planned with a less aggressive schedule. Both those are reasons to expect there will be significantly less rework needed than on the 787.

As far as I have seen, continuing production during the certification phase is normal across multiple aircraft manufacturers.

Amiga500 wrote:
Hmm - if they are changing essentially everything bar the frames, keel and skin of the fuselage - how on earth did they get away with it as an amendment?!?!


The amendment has to validate all the changes.

An amendment saves some work, but it might not be a particular large savings on this particular program considering how much is changing.

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