texl1649
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:36 pm

Any update on the reworked engines being delivered? I understood they were transported back to Peebles, OH via AN-124 in an effort to be as fast/require as little disassembly as possible for the 4 'compliance' engines. With the potential of 8+ birds sitting engineless shortly it would seem like GE is likely working to hit a Oct delivery target for getting at least 2 engines mounted to restart the pending verifications?

https://simpleflying.com/boeing-777x-en ... l-antonov/
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:44 pm

mxaxai wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Taking away doors doesn’t increase the exit limit, it reduces it. Depending on the operator the door will needed/not needed.

Removing the door increases the usable floor area. If your configuration is sufficiently low-density, less doors mean more passengers.

Lower weight, lower MX cost too.
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WIederling
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:58 pm

Revelation wrote:
Removing the door increases the usable floor area.

Lower weight, lower MX cost too.[/quote]

Any idea how much change in structure weight that entails?

Can't be minor. All the forces transferred by the skin need to be (re)routed on low stress path.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:05 pm

mxaxai wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Taking away doors doesn’t increase the exit limit, it reduces it. Depending on the operator the door will needed/not needed.

Removing the door increases the usable floor area. If your configuration is sufficiently low-density, less doors mean more passengers.


That is dependent on the configuration, in a high density configuration, say all Y seats you would want that exit active. I understand what you are saying though But I was speaking on the exit limit rather than usable cabin space.
 
estorilm
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:58 pm

bikerthai wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
I thought that in a high-speed taxi test, the NLG lifted off the ground.


Definitely not the max weight rejected take off version where you have smoking brakes and fire trucks. That will probably be later.

bt

Agreed - I came back here just to see if someone mentioned that. I can't believe how quickly that thing seemed to accelerate!!! Granted there's no way we can have any idea how heavy it was, but this wasn't the MTOW RTO for sure. Looked more like sports car performance haha.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:48 pm

It is possible that the fifth door is standard, but plugged if not needed - notice how one of the white frames has air stairs at all four Type A doors, but not one at the Type C.

As frigatebird noted, plugging the door means no windows for passengers in that row, but maybe it's an acceptable trade-off for more seats.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:54 pm

WIederling wrote:
Any idea how much change in structure weight that entails?Can't be minor. All the forces transferred by the skin need to be (re)routed on low stress path.


Educated guess here:

From what I understand about Boeing Production Philosophy, by using the plug instead of a door, you are only saving the weight of the door vs. the plug. They would not change the frame, skin, stringer configuration to change the load path around the cut-out just for the plug. They want to keep that reinforced-capability in case subsequent owner(s) of that frame decide to put the door back on.

The difference in weight would not be minor, but it would surprise me if the difference would be more than 100lbs per door. Most of the weight difference would probably be the elimination of the escape slides.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
jagraham
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:11 am

Scotron12 wrote:
One fine looking airplane...does look huge!


Especially with that 789 in front of it . . the 789 is not a small airplane!
 
jagraham
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:29 am

seabosdca wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Engines are being removed from N779XW today

https://twitter.com/mattcawby/status/11 ... 58081?s=20


If GE needed the engines back, that would certainly explain the hurry to complete a bunch of powered ground testing.


The article has a quote from David Joyce which implies that GE knows what the problem is and how to fix it . . .

"At the Paris air show, GE Aviation chief executive David Joyce disclosed that his team was redesigning a stator in the GE9X's high-pressure compressor. The issue, detected in May, resulted in exhaust gas temperatures outside an expected range and premature component deterioration, he said.

Joyce said GE Aviation would address the problem by designing a "more-robust" component, which it would install on the eight engines involved in the GE9X test programme.At the Paris air show, GE Aviation chief executive David Joyce disclosed that his team was redesigning a stator in the GE9X's high-pressure compressor. The issue, detected in May, resulted in exhaust gas temperatures outside an expected range and premature component deterioration, he said.

Joyce said GE Aviation would address the problem by designing a "more-robust" component, which it would install on the eight engines involved in the GE9X test programme."

It sounds to me like the control arm broke but only in one place. No piece of the arm going further back and damaging something. Anomaly was high exhaust gas temperature.
They did mention "premature component deterioration", so there are some other parts that have to be replaced, but not redesigned. Only on the engine with the busted control arm(s).

Presumably the flight test engines would have the control arms, and perhaps the stators they are attached to, replaced. Then they are good to go. So the test 779 being a glider is a good thing.
 
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qf789
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:12 am

Two 777X GEnx engines at the compass rose awaiting shipment back to GE

Image

https://twitter.com/mattcawby/status/11 ... 51936?s=20
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Checklist787
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:36 am

WIederling wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Removing the door increases the usable floor area.
Lower weight, lower MX cost too.


Any idea how much change in structure weight that entails?

Can't be minor. All the forces transferred by the skin need to be (re)routed on low stress path.


The weight is finally minor because it is a door only for galleys and emergency exit
 
mxaxai
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:14 am

Checklist787 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Any idea how much change in structure weight that entails?

Can't be minor. All the forces transferred by the skin need to be (re)routed on low stress path.


The weight is finally minor because it is a door only for galleys and emergency exit

Can it be used for galleys? I thought the pluggable door is an emergency exit only.

Anyway, the door itself has substantial weight. Hinges, locking mechanisms, seals, etc. plus the evacuation slide. Regarding stress, however, I don't expect the plug to be load-bearing. The fuselage likely needs the same reinforcement, regardless if a plug or a door is installed. Probably a couple hundred kilograms saved.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:13 am

mxaxai wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Any idea how much change in structure weight that entails?

Can't be minor. All the forces transferred by the skin need to be (re)routed on low stress path.


The weight is finally minor because it is a door only for galleys and emergency exit

Can it be used for galleys? I thought the pluggable door is an emergency exit only.

Anyway, the door itself has substantial weight. Hinges, locking mechanisms, seals, etc. plus the evacuation slide. Regarding stress, however, I don't expect the plug to be load-bearing. The fuselage likely needs the same reinforcement, regardless if a plug or a door is installed. Probably a couple hundred kilograms saved.


There is no problem with the type C door in this case

The 5th door of the 777-300ER is a larger and heavier type A door

So the 777-X is much better
 
Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:09 pm

qf789 wrote:
Two 777X GEnx engines at the compass rose awaiting shipment back to GE

Image

https://twitter.com/mattcawby/status/11 ... 51936?s=20



Saw them loading the ge9x walking into work this morning
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:02 am

Emirates 777-9 WH007 LN1611 being moved from the paint hangar to the flightline

http://www.paineairport.com/images/kpae17704ef.png

http://www.paineairport.com/images/kpae17705fc.png
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Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:17 am

If first flight of the 777-9 takes place in January 2020, is it possible that it can be certified by December 2020? how would it work. Is it possible to "ramp up" the flight testing schedule? I really want to see this aircraft in the sky! very beautiful
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:49 am

A year seems to be the minimum. Now with the engine mods maybe even more. There is no point in rushing flight testing. EIS by end 2020 is not realistic in my opinion.
 
KFLLCFII
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:05 am

Stitch wrote:
It is possible that the fifth door is standard, but plugged if not needed - notice how one of the white frames has air stairs at all four Type A doors, but not one at the Type C.

As frigatebird noted, plugging the door means no windows for passengers in that row, but maybe it's an acceptable trade-off for more seats.


Is a plug with a window a possibility?
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Aircellist
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:02 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
Stitch wrote:
It is possible that the fifth door is standard, but plugged if not needed - notice how one of the white frames has air stairs at all four Type A doors, but not one at the Type C.

As frigatebird noted, plugging the door means no windows for passengers in that row, but maybe it's an acceptable trade-off for more seats.


Is a plug with a window a possibility?


You mean a window of opportunity? :D
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:47 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
Is a plug with a window a possibility?


I am going to hazard a guess and say "yes"? Delta plugs the Mid Emergency Door on their 737-900ERs and they have a normal window in them.
 
queb
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:50 pm

Not a good news...

"Sources telling me about an incident that happened during what was meant to be final structural test of new 777X yesterday. Plane was pressurized, under extreme load conditions on the ground. As FAA inspectors watched, door flew off. Story today on
@KOMONewsradio.

https://twitter.com/KOMOCharlie/status/ ... 6673929216
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:03 pm

Could as little as an improperly locked door to a serious issue regarding fuselage/door design. Considering it’s a stretch of an existing aircraft, I have my doubts.
 
queb
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:14 pm

queb wrote:
Not a good news...

"Sources telling me about an incident that happened during what was meant to be final structural test of new 777X yesterday. Plane was pressurized, under extreme load conditions on the ground. As FAA inspectors watched, door flew off. Story today on
@KOMONewsradio.

https://twitter.com/KOMOCharlie/status/ ... 6673929216


Incident confirmation from Boeing:

https://twitter.com/KOMOCharlie/status/ ... 7632124929

Image
 
Sooner787
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:16 pm

Well they certainly have time to figure out the problem and apply a solution
while waiting on new engines from GE
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:52 pm

jagraham wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
One fine looking airplane...does look huge!


Especially with that 789 in front of it . . the 789 is not a small airplane!
That would be a MAX in front of it. They must be parking those things anywhere they can jam them in.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:47 pm

It would be helpful to know which of the ten doors failed. As the fuselage and Type A doors are the same as used on the rest of the 777 family, I am strongly inclined to think it was not a design issue there. If it was one of them, my guess would be it was not properly latched/secured.

The Type C "Mid Emergency Exit" door is new to the family, but again...and on the test frame was it a full door or just a plug?
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:26 am

Stitch wrote:
It would be helpful to know which of the ten doors failed. As the fuselage and Type A doors are the same as used on the rest of the 777 family, I am strongly inclined to think it was not a design issue there. If it was one of them, my guess would be it was not properly latched/secured.

The Type C "Mid Emergency Exit" door is new to the family, but again...and on the test frame was it a full door or just a plug?


The way doors are constructed, hang in their frames, makes it impossible to open spontaneously when the cabin is pressured.
Even if was not properly latched/secured, which is unlikely because multiple checklists are completed before such a test. .
It must have been a voilent blow to make a door fly.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
danj555
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:24 am

Why is this an issue? Isn’t it supposed to be a nearly identical fuselage as the current 777? Why would this certified design suddenly fail?
 
Ruscoe
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:52 am

Whilst the outside diameter and overall shape, of the fuselage is the same, it has been redesigned to increase internal width.
My biggest concern, whilst remote, would be that the fuselage distorted due to a design weakness.

Ruscoe
 
Guillaume787
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:11 am

Stitch wrote:
It would be helpful to know which of the ten doors failed. As the fuselage and Type A doors are the same as used on the rest of the 777 family, I am strongly inclined to think it was not a design issue there. If it was one of them, my guess would be it was not properly latched/secured.

The Type C "Mid Emergency Exit" door is new to the family, but again...and on the test frame was it a full door or just a plug?


According to this Seattle Times article, it was a cargo door that exploded outward:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... -777x-jet/
 
Armodeen
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:14 am

I mean it’s not great that it ‘exploded’ outward, but at least they have plenty of time to solve the issue before it flies!
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:18 am

danj555 wrote:
Why is this an issue? Isn’t it supposed to be a nearly identical fuselage as the current 777? Why would this certified design suddenly fail?

I think the testing is part of the certification process, so now that there was a failure, Boeing has to investigate, make necessary repairs / corrections then retest.
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:19 am

Guillaume787 wrote:
Stitch wrote:
It would be helpful to know which of the ten doors failed. As the fuselage and Type A doors are the same as used on the rest of the 777 family, I am strongly inclined to think it was not a design issue there. If it was one of them, my guess would be it was not properly latched/secured.

The Type C "Mid Emergency Exit" door is new to the family, but again...and on the test frame was it a full door or just a plug?


According to this Seattle Times article, it was a cargo door that exploded outward:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... -777x-jet/


Now when this happened to a DC10 it collapsed the floor and severed control lines leading to fatalities so a lot of investigations are going to be needed here.
BV
 
SteinarN
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:28 am

Damn, and at full fuselage pressure. Could there be substantial damage to the fuselage and/or the cabin floor itself? Can the floor in the cabin sustain the pressure differential when the cargo compartment is suddenly unpressurized while the passenger compartment is still fully pressurized?

This sounds very serious.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:36 am

Okay, a cargo door failing makes sense as they open outward and they can - and have - failed due to incorrect latching. This was also the static test frame so I wonder if the fuselage had already undergone "stress testing" and therefore was at a significant number of pressure cycles.


BoeingVista wrote:
Now when this happened to a DC10 it collapsed the floor and severed control lines leading to fatalities so a lot of investigations are going to be needed here.


The DC-10 was modified to not route the control cables through the floor and they also added vents to allow the pressure to be vented without collapsing the floor. I expect every subsequent airliner adopted similar design ethos (if not by choice, then by FAA regulation). So I expect that is not a concern in this scenario.
 
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Erebus
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:46 am

Opus99 wrote:
If first flight of the 777-9 takes place in January 2020, is it possible that it can be certified by December 2020? how would it work. Is it possible to "ramp up" the flight testing schedule? I really want to see this aircraft in the sky! very beautiful


Considering today's incident, I hope nothing is being rushed to meet those deadlines.
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:54 am

Stitch wrote:
Okay, a cargo door failing makes sense as they open outward and they can - and have - failed due to incorrect latching. This was also the static test frame so I wonder if the fuselage had already undergone "stress testing" and therefore was at a significant number of pressure cycles.


BoeingVista wrote:
Now when this happened to a DC10 it collapsed the floor and severed control lines leading to fatalities so a lot of investigations are going to be needed here.


The DC-10 was modified to not route the control cables through the floor and they also added vents to allow the pressure to be vented without collapsing the floor. I expect every subsequent airliner adopted similar design ethos (if not by choice, then by FAA regulation). So I expect that is not a concern in this scenario.


Yes plus the floor standards were strengthened so we await to see if all these protections worked, they should have.

But this really should not happen.
BV
 
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747classic
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:28 am

AFAIK this happened during the final 150% wing load test (witnessed by the FAA), with a (max )pressurized fuselage at the static test airframe.
This could be caused by a latching failure of the outward opening cargo doors (all main entry doors are plug type doors ) or the door frame may be distorded to much by the overload situation, causing the latches to fail or even failure of the door frame.
If the failure is caused by to much airframe distorsion, most probably the aft LWR cargo door may have been affected, being closed to the center wing box.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
Olddog
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:42 am

Yes but as it is not the first Boeing plane that have a cargo door failure, I guess the FAA will be careful.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:32 am

BoeingVista wrote:
Now when this happened to a DC10 it collapsed the floor and severed control lines leading to fatalities so a lot of investigations are going to be needed here.


Weren't blow out panels introduced as state of the art after the DC10 exposed those problems?
( With the DC10 having had additional aggravating circumstances:
vital control elements routed through the floor damaged from decompression.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
itisi
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:13 am

Just going from bad to worse now.....
737-300/400/500 ... are NOT classics :)
 
jagraham
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:50 am

RickNRoll wrote:
jagraham wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
One fine looking airplane...does look huge!


Especially with that 789 in front of it . . the 789 is not a small airplane!
That would be a MAX in front of it. They must be parking those things anywhere they can jam them in.



it's a 787! Look at the wing tips
 
finnishway
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:53 am

I know that folding wingtips were added so 777X doesn't take so much space at the gate. What is the case with 777X, does it need "A380 cabable gate" or can it basically fly every airport that recieves another large widebody aircraft like 777-300ER?
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:39 pm

No engines, no doors, what's next?

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SEPilot
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:58 pm

It is way too early for doom and gloom predictions, as we have no information as to exactly what went wrong. This is why they do this testing. If the engineers could accurately predict all the time exactly how the structure would react to the loads to which it was subject, the testing would be unnecessary. Be assured they will figure out exactly what went wrong and strengthen whatever proved to be inadequate. It may be something very minor, and then again it may not be. Seeing as how 777s have been flying since the mid 90s with, I expect, exactly the same cargo door and none has ever popped open in flight, I cannot imagine the problem is serious. Since the door is near the wingbox, which is new, it seems likely it has to do with the fuselage-wingbox interface. My suspicion is that the CFRP wingbox flexes more under load than the previous aluminum one did, and allowed more distortion of the cargo door frame than before. If that is the case it can be corrected in a number of ways. But it will be corrected.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:59 pm

finnishway wrote:
I know that folding wingtips were added so 777X doesn't take so much space at the gate. What is the case with 777X, does it need "A380 cabable gate" or can it basically fly every airport that recieves another large widebody aircraft like 777-300ER?

My understanding is that it will fit in 777 gates.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:00 pm

oschkosch wrote:
No engines, no doors, what's next?

Improved engines, improved doors, entry to service.
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The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
marcelh
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:18 pm

SEPilot wrote:
It is way too early for doom and gloom predictions, as we have no information as to exactly what went wrong. This is why they do this testing. If the engineers could accurately predict all the time exactly how the structure would react to the loads to which it was subject, the testing would be unnecessary. Be assured they will figure out exactly what went wrong and strengthen whatever proved to be inadequate. It may be something very minor, and then again it may not be. Seeing as how 777s have been flying since the mid 90s with, I expect, exactly the same cargo door and none has ever popped open in flight, I cannot imagine the problem is serious. Since the door is near the wingbox, which is new, it seems likely it has to do with the fuselage-wingbox interface. My suspicion is that the CFRP wingbox flexes more under load than the previous aluminum one did, and allowed more distortion of the cargo door frame than before. If that is the case it can be corrected in a number of ways. But it will be corrected.

Question remains why this wasn’t figured out before. The fuselage-wingbox interface is an essential structural part and I would presume it was designed with great care. It will be corrected and the 77X will be flying asap, but why haven’t they designed it right in the first place?
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:29 pm

SEPilot wrote:
It is way too early for doom and gloom predictions, as we have no information as to exactly what went wrong. This is why they do this testing. If the engineers could accurately predict all the time exactly how the structure would react to the loads to which it was subject, the testing would be unnecessary. Be assured they will figure out exactly what went wrong and strengthen whatever proved to be inadequate. It may be something very minor, and then again it may not be. Seeing as how 777s have been flying since the mid 90s with, I expect, exactly the same cargo door and none has ever popped open in flight, I cannot imagine the problem is serious. Since the door is near the wingbox, which is new, it seems likely it has to do with the fuselage-wingbox interface. My suspicion is that the CFRP wingbox flexes more under load than the previous aluminum one did, and allowed more distortion of the cargo door frame than before. If that is the case it can be corrected in a number of ways. But it will be corrected.


Compared to the 77W, the 777-9 has new wings, a new wingbox, new engines, a new landing gear, reshaped fuselage structure, bigger windows, lenghtened fuselage, relocated doors and resized tail. And a new 787 style cockpit. FAA allows the 777X to be certified as a 77W variant, grandfathering requirements and design. That saves time and costs.
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:39 pm

keesje wrote:
Compared to the 77W, the 777-9 has new wings, a new wingbox, new engines, a new landing gear, reshaped fuselage structure, bigger windows, lenghtened fuselage, relocated doors and resized tail. And a new 787 style cockpit. FAA allows the 777X to be certified as a 77W variant, grandfathering requirements and design. That saves time and costs.


I seem to remember some notes to the fact that the Al wingbox of the base 777 was to be retained for the 777X, just some parametric strengthening here and there ... .
( for to help grandfathering, I'd assume?)
Murphy is an optimist

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