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airkas1
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat May 25, 2019 8:34 pm

Personal opinion: While the capacity is there and cargo could indeed be developed (albeit likely at smaller scale), the whole military talk comes across as very wishful thinking and I have a hard time believing this would ever happen.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat May 25, 2019 9:03 pm

I agree, on the onther hand it could solve two problems, but indeed wishfull thinking.
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airkas1
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue May 28, 2019 6:05 pm

Just came across this article (in Dutch), which seems a lot more realistic than moving the entire military transport branch: https://www.rtvdrenthe.nl/nieuws/148012 ... sinesspark
 
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:53 am

North of the coast of the Netherlands and Germany, there is a series of islands which are popular with people from both countries for holidays. There are of course people living on these islands as well year round

While ferries exist, the German islands also have air service between the German mainland to the islands - eg Borkum, Juist, Langeoog, Wangerooge, etc

The Dutch islands seem to have no scheduled service - although an airport exists at Texel. Why are there no commercial flights ?
 
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:35 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
North of the coast of the Netherlands and Germany, there is a series of islands which are popular with people from both countries for holidays. There are of course people living on these islands as well year round

While ferries exist, the German islands also have air service between the German mainland to the islands - eg Borkum, Juist, Langeoog, Wangerooge, etc

The Dutch islands seem to have no scheduled service - although an airport exists at Texel. Why are there no commercial flights ?


Those are small islands and some even ban cars on the island. There is no market and the people living there would not stand for it. The Texel airport is just a grass strip used for hobby pilots, landed there once. It is charming though.
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:09 pm

Ameland also has an airport. Different mindset I guess, there would be no market for those flights in The Netherlands.
 
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:58 pm

Why is there no demand from the Dutch islands to the continental mainland (eg to Groningen or Den Helder) when there is demand for equivalent air routes in Germany ? The islands off the north coast of Germany are also small, with minimal resident populations whose livelihood depends on the summer tourist influx

Texel airport is officially classed as an international airport (ie with customs facilities) so they can opetate commercial flights if they want to do so
 
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:04 pm

Because we're cheap :silly: I don't think anyone will pay >87 Euro to get to the islands when the ferries do it for much less. The demand is absolutely there between the island and mainland, but the ferries cover all of it. I don't think anyone will be able to start up such routes in a profitable way. Unfortunately our aviation system/mindset is very different from the German one.
 
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:33 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:

Texel airport is officially classed as an international airport (ie with customs facilities) so they can opetate commercial flights if they want to do so

They might want to pave the runway first....
 
pspfan
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:28 pm

Flew a roundtrip between Texel and Terschelling on an AN-2 (from the museum at Texel) On the return leg we even had some cargo on board. Quite an experience it was. But us Dutchy’s are way to cheapass to fly commercially to the islands.
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Blerg
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:59 am

Pegasus is launching three weekly SAW-EIN flights.
I wonder if this is because of AMS being overcrowded?

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... june-2019/
 
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:02 am

Blerg wrote:
Pegasus is launching three weekly SAW-EIN flights.
I wonder if this is because of AMS being overcrowded?

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... june-2019/


Might, but there will be demand for the route EIN - Istanbul on its own. Turkish Airlines has been talking opening this route for quite some time now.
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:33 am

The wadden island are part of a European nature reserve (Natura2000) called Waddenzee. Besides there are military flying zones in that area and a bombing area over Vlieland.
A 0,5-1 hour ferry transit is more pleasant than a flight in a 19-seater to the island. Its much cheaper, And The ferry doesn't disrupt the quietness on the islands.
Then there is also the reasoning that there isn't enough demand to sustain multiple travel services. So ferries are chosen as the only mode of transport to the islands.

Possibly also interesting to mention, that there is political talk to prohibit flights between AMS and BRU. Because there are intercity train services between these cities. Possibly this makes clear that Dutch politics aren't in favour for aviation.
 
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:29 pm

A 0,5-1 hour ferry transit is more pleasant than a flight in a 19-seater to the island. Its much cheaper, And The ferry doesn't disrupt the quietness on the islands.


YOU'RE ON THE WRONG FORUM MATE...

You want the NIMBY / SNOWFLAKE Forum.
 
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:04 pm

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
The wadden island are part of a European nature reserve (Natura2000) called Waddenzee. Besides there are military flying zones in that area and a bombing area over Vlieland.
A 0,5-1 hour ferry transit is more pleasant than a flight in a 19-seater to the island. Its much cheaper, And The ferry doesn't disrupt the quietness on the islands.
Then there is also the reasoning that there isn't enough demand to sustain multiple travel services. So ferries are chosen as the only mode of transport to the islands.

Possibly also interesting to mention, that there is political talk to prohibit flights between AMS and BRU. Because there are intercity train services between these cities. Possibly this makes clear that Dutch politics aren't in favour for aviation.


Since when are ferries quiet? At least not the ones I've seen in the Mediterranean. If we are to follow your logic, the engine noise from the ferries disturbs the fish underwater with all the vibrations and stuff. ;)
 
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:17 am

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
The wadden island are part of a European nature reserve (Natura2000) called Waddenzee. Besides there are military flying zones in that area and a bombing area over Vlieland.
A 0,5-1 hour ferry transit is more pleasant than a flight in a 19-seater to the island. Its much cheaper, And The ferry doesn't disrupt the quietness on the islands.
Then there is also the reasoning that there isn't enough demand to sustain multiple travel services. So ferries are chosen as the only mode of transport to the islands.

Possibly also interesting to mention, that there is political talk to prohibit flights between AMS and BRU. Because there are intercity train services between these cities. Possibly this makes clear that Dutch politics aren't in favour for aviation.

Bit weird, the islands should be quiet and peaceful, and at the same time there is a bombing range at one of the islands. Cool combination.

That said, there is no way that commercial flying will work to one of these islands. Quite a big group of tourists that visit these islands go there for the nature and the before mentioned peace, I think this is not the best group of customers to chase with commercial air service.
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:50 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
North of the coast of the Netherlands and Germany, there is a series of islands which are popular with people from both countries for holidays. There are of course people living on these islands as well year round. While ferries exist, the German islands also have air service between the German mainland to the islands - eg Borkum, Juist, Langeoog, Wangerooge, etc. The Dutch islands seem to have no scheduled service - although an airport exists at Texel.

Why are there no commercial flights ?

Because - unlike Germany - 85% of Dutch population lives at driving distance from the Island. There is simply no need nor market for regular air service.
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:48 am

THE HAGUE - The new airport in Lelystad will not be opened next April. Minister Cora van Nieuwenhuizen of Infrastructure reports to the House of Representatives that the planning is "no longer feasible".

The problems are caused by the recent decision of the Council of State to declare Dutch nitrogen policy invalid. Van Nieuwenhuizen said earlier that it would be "not easy" to open Lelystad Airport in April.

The ruling of the Council of State means that the ministry must demonstrate that nitrogen emissions do not increase unacceptably when Lelystad Airport arrives.


https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... april-2020

again postponed due to legal reasons. So which will be first, the opening of Lelystad Airport, BER or the MAX recertified.
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:42 am

Starting from 16.12.2019 Wizz Air will increase VIE-EIN from 2 to 4 weekly onboard A321.
 
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:45 am

Dutchy wrote:
THE HAGUE - The new airport in Lelystad will not be opened next April. Minister Cora van Nieuwenhuizen of Infrastructure reports to the House of Representatives that the planning is "no longer feasible".

The problems are caused by the recent decision of the Council of State to declare Dutch nitrogen policy invalid. Van Nieuwenhuizen said earlier that it would be "not easy" to open Lelystad Airport in April.

The ruling of the Council of State means that the ministry must demonstrate that nitrogen emissions do not increase unacceptably when Lelystad Airport arrives.


https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... april-2020

again postponed due to legal reasons. So which will be first, the opening of Lelystad Airport, BER or the MAX recertified.


In the mean time, Beijing's version of airport reliever will open shortly . . . : PKX


PKX:
Image
Image

LEY:
Image
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:13 pm

Well...how do you compare Bejing to Lelystad of all places....Lelystad has the same amount of people living in the catchment area as 1 appartment block in Bejing :D ;)
And I don't see any operator starting DXB-LEY with A380's to fill up Bataviastad ;)
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:13 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Texel airport is officially classed as an international airport (ie with customs facilities) so they can opetate commercial flights if they want to do so


AFAIK the only commercial airports in The Netherlands are:
- Amsterdam Schiphol (AMS)
- Eindhoven (EIN)
- Rotterdam/The Hague (RTM)
- Maastricht (MST)
- Groningen (GRQ)
- Den Helder (DHR)

I don't know the current status of LEY as I don't know if the permission they received is revoked pending the current debate or that just the increase is blocked. However, they're now classified as "Airport of national importance", which assumes they have the status as commercial airport (as this status isn't going to airfields like Texel). Texel can't receive scheduled or commercial charter flights as they're not allowed to have them.

Dutchy wrote:
again postponed due to legal reasons. So which will be first, the opening of Lelystad Airport, BER or the MAX recertified.


MAX, LEY and finally BER. Don't forget that the opening of LEY is just a legal and political thing.
 
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:28 pm

DALCE wrote:
Well...how do you compare Bejing to Lelystad of all places....Lelystad has the same amount of people living in the catchment area as 1 appartment block in Bejing :D ;)
And I don't see any operator starting DXB-LEY with A380's to fill up Bataviastad ;)


It was a bit of sarcastic remark, on the basis that both PKX and LEY were intended as reliever airports . . . but just at a totally different scale.
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:42 pm

Great news, AMS will be allowed to grow beyond 500.000 Flights after 2020, sources told NOS.

In short:
*cabinet expects growth can be sustainable without impacting the environment. Newer planes -> less carbon emissions.
*Cabinet is not going to give an exact number of how many flights a year AMS can add, this will depend on how big the environmental gains will be.

I think this a great compromise. Environmental impact will be the same or less while the number of flights can grow. KL will retire their 747’s in 2021, which from a KL perspective will contribute greatly in reducing its emissions. Also, AMS’s Departure hall 1 and new Terminal A construction will be finished around that time.

Naturally, Greenpeace and local residents are FuRiOuS about this agreement. But they are furious about anything that involves planes so no surprises there. Let’s hope this plan will pass in the Senate.
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:00 pm

Yes, the cabinet has decided to have 540.000 flights in 2023. All the benefits we are gaining on the environmental side will be "compensated" by more and more flights.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:41 am

Some news from Zaventem Airport:

Brussels Airport welcomed almost 12.3 million passengers in the first six months of 2019, an increase of 1.8% compared to the same period last year. During the month of June alone, the number of passengers rose, compared to last year, by 4.3%. In contrast to the growing number of passengers, the amount of cargo that was shipped via the airport in the first half of the year was 9.3% lower than the same period last year. In June, 17.0% less cargo was shipped than in the same month last year.


Source: https://www.aviation24.be/airports/brus ... -june-4-3/

I wonder what could be an explanation for this?
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:47 pm

So depending on the source, OO-SFB is either an Eurowings aircraft operated by Brussels Airlines, or a Brussels Airlines aircraft. As it seems to operate regularly on some of the cities I travel from when going TATL, I wonder, what's it like on the inside? Eurowings or Brussels Airlines? Specifically, do the seats lie flat upfront?
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:09 pm

Rumour has it that KLM has ordered two 777-300ER’s in July, which will be delivered at the end of 2020.

Source: https://luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/cate ... oeing-777s
 
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:11 pm

blueflyer wrote:
So depending on the source, OO-SFB is either an Eurowings aircraft operated by Brussels Airlines, or a Brussels Airlines aircraft. As it seems to operate regularly on some of the cities I travel from when going TATL, I wonder, what's it like on the inside? Eurowings or Brussels Airlines? Specifically, do the seats lie flat upfront?


AFAIK, all long haul aircraft operating for SN or EW have the same full flat business class, except for the EW birds operated by Sunexpress Deutschland.
So as long as it is an OO- registered plane, business will be full flat.
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:11 pm

Luxair will launch Luxembourg - Florence, Nantes and Montpellier in S20 with two weekly flights :

LG 8145 LUX 1105 - 1250 NTE 1---5-- DH4
LG 8146 NTE 1335 - 1515 LUX 1---5-- DH4

LG 8211 LUX 1105 - 1250 MPL --3--6- DH4
LG 8212 MPL 1330 - 1510 LUX --3--6- DH4

https://www.luxair.lu/en
Next flights :
FRA-DTW (DL) / DTW-LAS (DL) / LAS-SEA (DL) / SEA-CDG (AF) / CDG-FRA (AF)
 
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:07 am

The European Commission has approved the arrangement that makes it possible to distribute flights between Schiphol and Lelystad Airport. This is evident from a pdf of the draft decision that is owned and put online by the NOS. The member states have agreed, the letter shows. This means that one of the most important obstacles for opening up the airport has been overcome.

The airport in Lelystad should initially open in 2020, but that had to be postponed partly due to the lack of permission from Brussels.

However, not all problems have been solved with the permission from Brussels. Residents groups in Gelderland and Overijssel want the airport to open until the airspace has been redesigned and the planned low-flying routes have disappeared. The nitrogen ruling of the Council of State can also cause problems.

Airlines that are prepared to give up flights at Schiphol are given priority over Lelystad, is stated in the regulation. The condition is that they return the flights at Schiphol to the slot coordinator at Schiphol or use them for transfer flights themselves. This is valid for a total of 25,000 flights per year. An evaluation follows after three years.


in Dutch

This is on barrier down, but there are many hurdles to take in order to open this airport up for commercial traffic.
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:35 am

I am not familiar with Lelystad airport but why would an airline move from AMS there? From the article it sounds as if there are some airlines that are eagerly waiting to do so.
 
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:48 am

Blerg wrote:
I am not familiar with Lelystad airport but why would an airline move from AMS there? From the article it sounds as if there are some airlines that are eagerly waiting to do so.


It’s cheaper to operate from/to LEY but the main reason is probably to move P2P flights (like holiday and package deal flights) to LEY in favour of transfer flights at AMS. Remember that AMS is currently operating at max capacity (I know this is a political cap).

I guess AF/KL Group is the main (only?) winner here as this enables AF/KL Group to move a large amount of HV (Transavia) flights to LEY in order to grow the KL network (long and short haul).
Home airport: AMS
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:59 am

777klm wrote:
Blerg wrote:
I am not familiar with Lelystad airport but why would an airline move from AMS there? From the article it sounds as if there are some airlines that are eagerly waiting to do so.


It’s cheaper to operate from/to LEY but the main reason is probably to move P2P flights (like holiday and package deal flights) to LEY in favour of transfer flights at AMS. Remember that AMS is currently operating at max capacity (I know this is a political cap).

I guess AF/KL Group is the main (only?) winner here as this enables AF/KL Group to move a large amount of HV (Transavia) flights to LEY in order to grow the KL network (long and short haul).


:checkmark: HV seems to be the only one to be eager to move. KL could indeed be the great winner, one of the reasons Easyjet is complaining and for instance, Ryanair wants access to LEY, but now the EU kind of agrees that there will be a preference of airlines freeing slots at Schiphol will get slots at LEY.

This isn't a done deal, Parliament wants no autonomic growth at LEY, which this deal includes, there are still environmental concerns which blocks 18.000 projects in the Netherlands at the moment, including LEY and there are still 160.000 complains to be dealt with. Opening LEY is controversial to say the least.

Berlin can't build an airport building and the Netherlands can't get the legislation right. The building is ready, the airport is ready, but no commercial flights as of yet.
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:03 am

Dutchy wrote:
:checkmark: HV seems to be the only one to be eager to move. KL could indeed be the great winner, one of the reasons Easyjet is complaining and for instance, Ryanair wants access to LEY, but now the EU kind of agrees that there will be a preference of airlines freeing slots at Schiphol will get slots at LEY.


If easyJet does not want to move to LEY, I don't see why Ryanair shouldn't be allowed there. U2 acts like a dog in the manger.

Transavia to LEY makes sense with all those Transavia routes cancelled in AMS and the new routes in RTM. Maybe in the near future it will be only KLM at AMS and Transavia in EIN/GRQ/LEY/RTM.
 
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:25 am

SCQ83 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
:checkmark: HV seems to be the only one to be eager to move. KL could indeed be the great winner, one of the reasons Easyjet is complaining and for instance, Ryanair wants access to LEY, but now the EU kind of agrees that there will be a preference of airlines freeing slots at Schiphol will get slots at LEY.


If easyJet does not want to move to LEY, I don't see why Ryanair shouldn't be allowed there. U2 acts like a dog in the manger.

Transavia to LEY makes sense with all those Transavia routes cancelled in AMS and the new routes in RTM. Maybe in the near future it will be only KLM at AMS and Transavia in EIN/GRQ/LEY/RTM.


The goverment would prefer it if no "new" flights where started at LEY. Only transfered flights from AMS. That was the main idea of LEY, as overflow for AMS.
So if FR starts a base at LEY without having one at AMS it's kind of pointless, as capacity is very limited (regulatory)at LEY as well.
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:40 am

FlyRow wrote:
The government would prefer it if no "new" flights where started at LEY. Only transfered flights from AMS. That was the main idea of LEY, as overflow for AMS.
So if FR starts a base at LEY without having one at AMS it's kind of pointless, as capacity is very limited (regulatory)at LEY as well.

Is it truly only a preference or an unstated requirement to operate at LEY? I understand airlines that give up AMS slots get priority at LEY, but there are so many ways to structure an agreement where "priority" becomes the only way. I'm wondering whether the EU has put or will put stricter terms than I have read so far, as this arrangement has the potential to be so anti-competitive. It could effectively ban a new entrant into the market altogether.
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:51 am

SCQ83 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
:checkmark: HV seems to be the only one to be eager to move. KL could indeed be the great winner, one of the reasons Easyjet is complaining and for instance, Ryanair wants access to LEY, but now the EU kind of agrees that there will be a preference of airlines freeing slots at Schiphol will get slots at LEY.


If easyJet does not want to move to LEY, I don't see why Ryanair shouldn't be allowed there.

If EasyJet doesn’t move KL might as well take all slots at LEY, I’m sure they could do without Ryanair in their backyard.
 
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:11 am

FlyRow wrote:
The goverment would prefer it if no "new" flights where started at LEY. Only transfered flights from AMS. That was the main idea of LEY, as overflow for AMS.
So if FR starts a base at LEY without having one at AMS it's kind of pointless, as capacity is very limited (regulatory)at LEY as well.


The chances of FR starting a base at LEY are very small given the fact they closed their base at EIN a few months ago. Don't expect that LEY will give any incentive to a LCC to come to LEY (and I doubt any local government will provide subsidies for any service). LEY is designated by their owner (Schiphol Group) as overflow airport for AMS.
 
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:12 am

blueflyer wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
The government would prefer it if no "new" flights where started at LEY. Only transfered flights from AMS. That was the main idea of LEY, as overflow for AMS.
So if FR starts a base at LEY without having one at AMS it's kind of pointless, as capacity is very limited (regulatory)at LEY as well.

Is it truly only a preference or an unstated requirement to operate at LEY? I understand airlines that give up AMS slots get priority at LEY, but there are so many ways to structure an agreement where "priority" becomes the only way. I'm wondering whether the EU has put or will put stricter terms than I have read so far, as this arrangement has the potential to be so anti-competitive. It could effectively ban a new entrant into the market altogether.


I think this is one of those "it will work that way for sure" things, which in the end turns out in too a "it doesn't".

It's a bit of wishfull thinking, a FR / Wizzair would love a cheap secondary airport on Amsterdam's doorstep, it's a massive lowcost market. A new cheaper-to-operate airport would for sure draw (U)LCC attention.
If you don't place hard measures then it will fill up very quickly having limited effect on AMS. Especially with the very few flights that will be allowed to start from LEY in the beginning.
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Blerg
Posts: 2625
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:24 am

So if an airlines gives back its slots to AMS who decides who gets them and who doesn't? Or will they reduce overall movements?
 
IWMBH
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:30 am

Blerg wrote:
So if an airlines gives back its slots to AMS who decides who gets them and who doesn't? Or will they reduce overall movements?


according to Dutch media, airlines can use the slots themselves for transfer flights (so Transavia slots will probably be used by KL) or they need to return the slots to the Schiphol-coordinator. Therefore airlines can't sell the slots to other airlines.

https://nos.nl/artikel/2300526-brussel- ... rport.html (source in Dutch)
 
blueflyer
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:07 am

No official news release (that I know of), however FedEx is adding to its flight schedule at LGG. It is now operating IND-LGG-DXB, PVG-LGG-MEM and a return HKG-LGG, all on 777s of course.

It is good news to the extent that FedEx made it very clear they were unhappy at how the airport was bending over backwards for Alibaba, even implying it could affect FedEx's plans to expand at the airport.
The Trump/Johnson special relationship: Special people on both sides of the Atlantic
 
LJ
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:32 am

FlyRow wrote:
I think this is one of those "it will work that way for sure" things, which in the end turns out in too a "it doesn't".

It's a bit of wishfull thinking, a FR / Wizzair would love a cheap secondary airport on Amsterdam's doorstep, it's a massive lowcost market. A new cheaper-to-operate airport would for sure draw (U)LCC attention.
If you don't place hard measures then it will fill up very quickly having limited effect on AMS. Especially with the very few flights that will be allowed to start from LEY in the beginning.


LEY won't be a cheap LCC airport as its owner doesn't want it. There is no incentive for the airport to offer cheap flights as it's owned by Schiphol Group. Schiphol Group has designated EIN as a LCC airport, AMS and RTM as business airports and LEY has to ensure that AMS doesn't get too crowded. Yes, the Schiphol Group would love to move most of the LCC flights to LEY,but it doesn't want it to get additional LCC traffic whilst not reducing it at AMS. Hence why government policy and the policy of the owner of the airport is very much aligned. Moreover, if traffic at AMS wouldn't be restricted, then there wouldn't be commercial aviation at LEY. Finally, I'm almost 100% sure that should the government policy not work or deemed illegal, the owner will try to move some LCC flights by adjusting landing fees and/or other charges.
 
SCQ83
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:59 am

LJ wrote:
LEY won't be a cheap LCC airport as its owner doesn't want it. There is no incentive for the airport to offer cheap flights as it's owned by Schiphol Group. Schiphol Group has designated EIN as a LCC airport, AMS and RTM as business airports and LEY has to ensure that AMS doesn't get too crowded. Yes, the Schiphol Group would love to move most of the LCC flights to LEY,but it doesn't want it to get additional LCC traffic whilst not reducing it at AMS. Hence why government policy and the policy of the owner of the airport is very much aligned. Moreover, if traffic at AMS wouldn't be restricted, then there wouldn't be commercial aviation at LEY. Finally, I'm almost 100% sure that should the government policy not work or deemed illegal, the owner will try to move some LCC flights by adjusting landing fees and/or other charges.


So the most logical thing is that Transavia will start moving routes from AMS to LEY "freeing" slots to KLM. So it might end like in Paris where Air France is focused in CDG (except the domestic operation that NL does not have) and Transavia in ORY.

I wonder if the routes that Transavia announced yesterday to be cancelled from AMS (Helsinki, Katowice, Reus, Sofia, Tirana) will be the first to be tried in LEY.
 
LJ
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:51 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
I wonder if the routes that Transavia announced yesterday to be cancelled from AMS (Helsinki, Katowice, Reus, Sofia, Tirana) will be the first to be tried in LEY.


Highly unlikely, the first flights will probably be charter destinations like Palma, Malaga and Antalya. It would make more sense to fly to destinations where people from nearby Almere and Leleystad want to fly to.
 
Blerg
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:28 am

Does KL fly from AMS to Helsinki, Katowice, Reus or Sofia? I guess they are using Transavia's lower costs.
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:05 am

Blerg wrote:
Does KL fly from AMS to Helsinki, Katowice, Reus or Sofia? I guess they are using Transavia's lower costs.


Out of those, only Helsinki is a KLM destination. The rest aren't. Though I wouldn't be surprised to see KLM start Sofia once Transavia pulls out, after all it is a EU capital so there must be some business traffic. KLM is better suited than Transavia for that.

Don't expect KLM to start Katowice or Reus, both are served on KLM through nearby Krakow and Barcelona.
Last edited by PatrickZ80 on Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
LJ
Posts: 4887
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:09 am

Blerg wrote:
Does KL fly from AMS to Helsinki, Katowice, Reus or Sofia? I guess they are using Transavia's lower costs.


KLM flies to Helsinki only.
 
Blerg
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:32 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Does KL fly from AMS to Helsinki, Katowice, Reus or Sofia? I guess they are using Transavia's lower costs.


Out of those, only Helsinki is a KLM destination. The rest aren't. Though I wouldn't be surprised to see KLM start Sofia once Transavia pulls out, after all it is a EU capital so there must be some business traffic. KLM is better suited than Transavia for that.

Don't expect KLM to start Katowice or Reus, both are served on KLM through nearby Krakow and Barcelona.


I guess with SOF the large presence of low cost carriers is an issue as they dilute demand (neighboring airports) and bring down the yield in an already sensitive market. I guess that's why the market is a better fit for Transavia, same way they did in Ljubljana and Belgrade.

KL launched ZAG some time ago but from what I can see the route isn't doing that well. This summer Embraer operates the route and it is being reduced to 6 weekly from the start of the winter season.

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