77H wrote:

[it doesn't seem to make much sense to me for HA to have a sub-fleet of just two LR's.

Possibly not. HA has 24 A330s (half of them on lease). All Trans Pacific use the A330 (even Papeete and Papau New Guines), and certainly HNL to BOS and JFK must use a twin aisle jet.

For Western USA.

Daily A330s from HNL on Hawaian Airlines (April 2019) - statute miles
3 LAS 2762
3 LAX 2556
1 PHX 2917
1 SEA 2677
1 SFO 2398
1 PDX 2603
1 SAN 2614

Daily A330s from OGG on Hawaian Airlines (April 2019) - statute miles
1 LAX 2486
1 SEA 2640
1 SFO 2338

It has been announced that SAN A330 will be downsized in January 2020, and I suppose PDX and PHX are being considered.

But HA might just increase orders for the A321neo, and start with LR versions (although I think they can reach PHX with

Domestic Passengers to state of Hawaii (April 2019)
58.4% CA
11.2% WA
5.1% OR
4.8% TX
4.0% CO
3.5% AZ
3.3% NV
2.3% IL
1.4% TT (Trust Territory of Pacific)
1.1% NY
4.85% other



If HA were to invest in a fleet of A321XLR jets these are some possibilities (distance from HNL)

3,720 mi SAT
3,763 mi AUS
3,894 mi MCI
4,129 mi STL
4,205 mi MSY
4,341 mi IND
4,350 mi BNA
4,559 mi CLE
4,652 mi PIT
4,788 mi RDU

I suspect they would have to keep the A330s for longer ranges
4,983 mi JFK
5,095 mi BOS

Right now Cancun has a nonstop to almost twice as many airports as HNL.

PacoMartin wrote:

77H wrote:

[it doesn't seem to make much sense to me for HA to have a sub-fleet of just two LR's.

Possibly not. HA has 24 A330s (half of them on lease). All Trans Pacific use the A330 (even Papeete and Papau New Guines), and certainly HNL to BOS and JFK must use a twin aisle jet.

For Western USA.

Daily A330s from HNL on Hawaian Airlines (April 2019) - statute miles
3 LAS 2762
3 LAX 2556
1 PHX 2917
1 SEA 2677
1 SFO 2398
1 PDX 2603
1 SAN 2614

Daily A330s from OGG on Hawaian Airlines (April 2019) - statute miles
1 LAX 2486
1 SEA 2640
1 SFO 2338

It has been announced that SAN A330 will be downsized in January 2020, and I suppose PDX and PHX are being considered.

But HA might just increase orders for the A321neo, and start with LR versions (although I think they can reach PHX with

To be clear, I don't believe it was me that said it doesn't make much sense for HA to have a sub-fleet of just 2 LRs. Especially considering that I mentioned the idea of them having a small subfleet of 319N/320N's to operate from short runway airports like BUR or SAN.

To me, the impact of having a small subfleet would be limited considering that the there is a common type rating among the 319/320/321 (and 321N/LR/XLR) by extension as well as common parts and engines meaning you wouldn't need several distinct parts stocks and training for maintenance personnel.

77H

[quote="usxguy"]Westjet just upgraded their OGG flights to a 787...[quote]

I read that a few weeks ago but from a macro perspective, the MAX groundings have impacted service from YYC/YVR to HNL/OGG/KOA and LIH. WS's upgauge on YYC-OGG rectifies only one route to one island. Beyond that, demand from the YVR market to Hawaii at large is greater than YYC to Hawaii. Which is why I think HA to BLI has merit.

77H

In HA 3rd quarter report it looks like they are keeping their A330 fleet intact at 24 jets unit at least the arrival of the Dreamliners
• Extended the leases on three A330 aircraft, enabling cost savings while maintaining fleet flexibility for future growth.
• Took delivery of two Airbus A321neo aircraft, increasing the size of its A321neo fleet to fifteen aircraft.

• Received final U.S. Department of Transportation approval to operate one additional daily nonstop flight between Tokyo Haneda Airport (HND) and Honolulu Daniel K. Inouye International Airport (HNL) starting in March of 2020.

• Announced service for three new routes with its A321neo fleet:
(1) Seasonal winter service between Maui (OGG) and Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) from December 14, 2019 through January 5, 2020, supplementing existing daily A330-200 service
(2) Four-times-weekly service between Maui’s Kahului Airport (OGG) and Las Vegas’ McCarran International Airport (LAS) beginning December 15, 2019
(3) Thrice-weekly nonstop service between Honolulu (HNL) and Seattle-Tacoma International Airport (SEA) starting January 7, 2020, supplementing existing daily A330-200 service

The 3rd qtr report did not confirm or deny the notice in routesonline last July that on 20 January 2020 HA intends to downgauge the A330 from SAN-HNL to an A321neo. Presumably it must be true or they wouldn't have another A330 to fly to Tokyo in March.
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -jan-2020/

I am not sure what the expected delivery dates are for the final 3 A321neos. I think I read somewhere that all but one should be delivered by the end of 2019.

I think HA is focused on where to fly the 789s.

PacoMartin wrote:

IThe 3rd qtr report did not confirm or deny the notice in routesonline last July that on 20 January 2020 HA intends to downgauge the A330 from SAN-HNL to an A321neo. Presumably it must be true or they wouldn't have another A330 to fly to Tokyo in March.
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -jan-2020/

The quarterly report doesn't need to confirm it. Checking the seat map on their web site does.

PacoMartin wrote:

77H wrote:

[it doesn't seem to make much sense to me for HA to have a sub-fleet of just two LR's.

Possibly not. HA has 24 A330s (half of them on lease). All Trans Pacific use the A330 (even Papeete and Papau New Guines), and certainly HNL to BOS and JFK must use a twin aisle jet.

For Western USA.

Daily A330s from HNL on Hawaian Airlines (April 2019) - statute miles
3 LAS 2762
3 LAX 2556
1 PHX 2917
1 SEA 2677
1 SFO 2398
1 PDX 2603
1 SAN 2614

Daily A330s from OGG on Hawaian Airlines (April 2019) - statute miles
1 LAX 2486
1 SEA 2640
1 SFO 2338

It has been announced that SAN A330 will be downsized in January 2020, and I suppose PDX and PHX are being considered.

But HA might just increase orders for the A321neo, and start with LR versions (although I think they can reach PHX with

First...HA does not serve Papua New Guinea. Did you mean Pago Pago?

Second...as to your last sentences, specifically referring to PHX...there is no reason for HA to downgauge PHX from the current 332 to a 321N, they fill that bird every day year-round!

But I really do think it's possible that at some point HA will start a OGG-PHX service using the 321N, and I'm pretty sure from what I've read in threads here on a.net that the standard 321N can make it, with no need for the LR version. The HNL-PHX route should remain with the 332 given the year-round loads. Even if they were to start OGG-PHX I don't think it would cannibalize the HNL route too much. Now, if HA wanted to increase frequency on HNL-PHX, then yeah, a 321N would be called for as even if an additional freq. was less-than-daily, I'm not so sure they could fill a 332; this is just what they intended to use the 321N's for (boost some frequencies)...aside from starting new, thinner routes.

77H wrote:

PacoMartin wrote:

77H wrote:

[it doesn't seem to make much sense to me for HA to have a sub-fleet of just two LR's.

Possibly not. HA has 24 A330s (half of them on lease). All Trans Pacific use the A330 (even Papeete and Papau New Guines), and certainly HNL to BOS and JFK must use a twin aisle jet.

It has been announced that SAN A330 will be downsized in January 2020, and I suppose PDX and PHX are being considered.

But HA might just increase orders for the A321neo, and start with LR versions (although I think they can reach PHX with

To be clear, I don't believe it was me that said it doesn't make much sense for HA to have a sub-fleet of just 2 LRs. Especially considering that I mentioned the idea of them having a small subfleet of 319N/320N's to operate from short runway airports like BUR or SAN.

To me, the impact of having a small subfleet would be limited considering that the there is a common type rating among the 319/320/321 (and 321N/LR/XLR) by extension as well as common parts and engines meaning you wouldn't need several distinct parts stocks and training for maintenance personnel.

77H

That was me...and I see your point; I was thinking from a scheduling standpoint...if they only had 2 LR's, presumably for a specific reason (i.e. specific route(s)) that would create a problem if one went tech.

UPS began service to LIH today with a B763. The flight is an extension of an existing service from ONT to OGG and departs LIH for HNL.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UPS2968

cathay747 wrote:

PacoMartin wrote:

77H wrote:

[it doesn't seem to make much sense to me for HA to have a sub-fleet of just two LR's.

Possibly not. HA has 24 A330s (half of them on lease). All Trans Pacific use the A330 (even Papeete and Papau New Guines), and certainly HNL to BOS and JFK must use a twin aisle jet.

For Western USA.

Daily A330s from HNL on Hawaian Airlines (April 2019) - statute miles
3 LAS 2762
3 LAX 2556
1 PHX 2917
1 SEA 2677
1 SFO 2398
1 PDX 2603
1 SAN 2614

Daily A330s from OGG on Hawaian Airlines (April 2019) - statute miles
1 LAX 2486
1 SEA 2640
1 SFO 2338

It has been announced that SAN A330 will be downsized in January 2020, and I suppose PDX and PHX are being considered.

But HA might just increase orders for the A321neo, and start with LR versions (although I think they can reach PHX with

First...HA does not serve Papua New Guinea. Did you mean Pago Pago?

Second...as to your last sentences, specifically referring to PHX...there is no reason for HA to downgauge PHX from the current 332 to a 321N, they fill that bird every day year-round!

But I really do think it's possible that at some point HA will start a OGG-PHX service using the 321N, and I'm pretty sure from what I've read in threads here on a.net that the standard 321N can make it, with no need for the LR version. The HNL-PHX route should remain with the 332 given the year-round loads. Even if they were to start OGG-PHX I don't think it would cannibalize the HNL route too much. Now, if HA wanted to increase frequency on HNL-PHX, then yeah, a 321N would be called for as even if an additional freq. was less-than-daily, I'm not so sure they could fill a 332; this is just what they intended to use the 321N's for (boost some frequencies)...aside from starting new, thinner routes.

Just because a flight is full year round, it does not mean that HA would not downgauge a flight if it mean it could fly it further and make more money. Look at SFO-OGG, they can fill that flight year round, that has gone to A321. PDX can fill a 330 also, that also was downgauge. Next year, SAN-HNL is going to 321. That also is consistently full house or close to it. And these flights has cargo, they still downgauge it. So to say HA wouldn't downgauge PHX purely because they can fill that bird, does not mean it wont. If HA see opportunities that can make more money with the 330 on another route, they'd move it in a heart beat if they have a 321 to fill the 330 route.

HA has stated that if a HA destination has enough interest in expanding service to other islands, they are willing to change a 330 city to a 321 city. They'd rather grow a city with 2 neos than to have a half empty 330 when they add a neo to expand service.

Keep in mind, a321 is probably a more appropriate market for some of these routes. A330 is too much capacity and lowers yield. They could always go with additional frequency if needed. It doesn't make sense for ha to compete against narrow bodies with a330. And with wn entrance, the shift to a321 allowed them to maintain yield in these markets.

On the topic of the relationship of LF to Hawaii, operator's fleet planning, and vacation rentals...
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/11/ ... 9b442c8582

The cost of frat/sorority/social club "rent a house with 10 beds for a week" reunions in Hawaii is going up. That type of rental was a major trigger for the vacation rental crackdown, drinkathons in residential neigborhoods in properties owned by out of state owners. 10-bed vacation rentals are still available, but the legal ones are in resort areas with high rental fees.

May 2019 BTS data was released. For Hawaiian Airlines we have roughly 15-16 A330s per day to mainland, and 11-12 A321neos per day

A330
Honolulu, HI
22 Boston, MA
84 Las Vegas, NV
93 Los Angeles, CA
31 New York, NY
31 Phoenix, AZ
31 Portland, OR
31 San Diego, CA
31 San Francisco, CA
15 San Jose, CA
31 Seattle, WA

Kahului, HI
31 Los Angeles, CA
31 San Francisco, CA
31 Seattle, WA

A321neo
Honolulu, HI
Long Beach, CA 31
Oakland, CA 30
Sacramento, CA 31
San Jose, CA 16
Kahului, HI
Oakland, CA 31
Portland, OR 31
Sacramento, CA 30
San Diego, CA 31
San Jose, CA 31
Kona, HI
Los Angeles, CA 31
Lihue, HI
Los Angeles, CA 31
Oakland, CA 31

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