77H wrote:

My understanding is that there is some sort of gentlemen’s agreement between UA and HA that keeps them from starting GUM in exchange for UA staying out of the Hawaiian inter island market. Maybe someone has more insight.

77H

Unfortunately that would garner the interest of the U.S. Department of Justice and also the U.S. Department of Transportation. (anti-trust)

hawaiian717 wrote:

As far as the government contracts, remember those are rebid every year, so there is a chance for HA to grab GUM contracts from UA should HA decide to start flying to GUM. For fiscal year 2020, for example, SAN-HNL is Southwest. Those only apply to government personnel (including military when flying on scheduled flights); contractors traveling on government business would still fly according to their company policies.

Well that's all true of course. Maybe HA will bid at some point. I'm not familiar with the process...do they have to have existing service to put in a bid, or can they bid with the contingency that IF they win THEN they'd start the service?

usxguy wrote:

77H wrote:

My understanding is that there is some sort of gentlemen’s agreement between UA and HA that keeps them from starting GUM in exchange for UA staying out of the Hawaiian inter island market. Maybe someone has more insight.

77H

Unfortunately that would garner the interest of the U.S. Department of Justice and also the U.S. Department of Transportation. (anti-trust)

Quite so; collusion!!

WN's unexpected success in the Hawaii market (interisland and CONUS) is quickly and "persuasively" forcing HA's hand. HA must act to counter revenue erosion, and that means, IMO, more service to the South Pacific, not Asia. I predict the B789s will be used not only to increase frequency HNL/PPT, but also to add more S. Pacific destinations ex-HNL, maybe some island-hoppers tagged on the long-haul. Analogous to the new HNL/BOS service.... start non-stops where there is little or no non-stop competition.

WPvsMW wrote:

WN's unexpected success in the Hawaii market (interisland and CONUS) is quickly and "persuasively" forcing HA's hand. HA must act to counter revenue erosion, and that means, IMO, more service to the South Pacific, not Asia. I predict the B789s will be used not only to increase frequency HNL/PPT, but also to add more S. Pacific destinations ex-HNL, maybe some island-hoppers tagged on the long-haul. Analogous to the new HNL/BOS service.... start non-stops where there is little or no non-stop competition.

I just read in PBN that AUS Airport Management has an incentive on offer for a nonstop to HNL. Perhaps HA will look into starting AUS. It’s a growing city with a vibrant economy and is the largest TX market that could realistically support a nonstop that isn’t already served.

77H

DL would be a good candidate for the AUS offer, given DL's growth in AUS as the "replacement DFW".

77H wrote:

WPvsMW wrote:

WN's unexpected success in the Hawaii market (interisland and CONUS) is quickly and "persuasively" forcing HA's hand. HA must act to counter revenue erosion, and that means, IMO, more service to the South Pacific, not Asia. I predict the B789s will be used not only to increase frequency HNL/PPT, but also to add more S. Pacific destinations ex-HNL, maybe some island-hoppers tagged on the long-haul. Analogous to the new HNL/BOS service.... start non-stops where there is little or no non-stop competition.

I just read in PBN that AUS Airport Management has an incentive on offer for a nonstop to HNL. Perhaps HA will look into starting AUS. It’s a growing city with a vibrant economy and is the largest TX market that could realistically support a nonstop that isn’t already served.

WPvsMW wrote:

DL would be a good candidate for the AUS offer, given DL's growth in AUS as the "replacement DFW".

While AUS is too far from HNL for WN to serve HNL nonstop on 737 NG or 737 MAX planes, the successor to the Boeing 737 MAX will likely have the range needed for WN to serve HNL nonstop from AUS.

WPvsMW wrote:

DL would be a good candidate for the AUS offer, given DL's growth in AUS as the "replacement DFW".

As opposed to HA why ?

With a rapidly decreasing 763 fleet, what aircraft do you propose they use? I’d assume DL can find better uses for the 764, 332 and 333 frames than AUS-HNL.

77H

WPvsMW wrote:

Not only OGG and LIH, but KOA (no air bridges) and HNL ("wiki" buses... but "wiki" means quick, which they are not) would benefit from being managed by an Airport Authority. The bill to create an Airport Authority died in the 2019 Hawaii Legislature... for the FOURTH year in a row.

I wouldn't change a thing at KOA, it's in interesting experience and very Hawaiian.

mcg wrote:

WPvsMW wrote:

Not only OGG and LIH, but KOA (no air bridges) and HNL ("wiki" buses... but "wiki" means quick, which they are not) would benefit from being managed by an Airport Authority. The bill to create an Airport Authority died in the 2019 Hawaii Legislature... for the FOURTH year in a row.

I wouldn't change a thing at KOA, it's in interesting experience and very Hawaiian.

When KOA has (July-Sept) SIN levels of heat and humidity, an airbridge would be very welcome.

77H wrote:

WPvsMW wrote:

DL would be a good candidate for the AUS offer, given DL's growth in AUS as the "replacement DFW".

As opposed to HA why ?

With a rapidly decreasing 763 fleet, what aircraft do you propose they use? I’d assume DL can find better uses for the 764, 332 and 333 frames than AUS-HNL.

77H

77H, I'm not discounting HA as a candidate for n/s HNL/AUS service, just saying that DL "would be a good candidate". DL's 764ER would be the probable frame ... depends upon (i) network strategy and comparative yields, as usual, (ii) DL's plans for "DFW II".

WPvsMW wrote:

mcg wrote:

WPvsMW wrote:

Not only OGG and LIH, but KOA (no air bridges) and HNL ("wiki" buses... but "wiki" means quick, which they are not) would benefit from being managed by an Airport Authority. The bill to create an Airport Authority died in the 2019 Hawaii Legislature... for the FOURTH year in a row.

I wouldn't change a thing at KOA, it's in interesting experience and very Hawaiian.

When KOA has (July-Sept) SIN levels of heat and humidity, an airbridge would be very welcome.

There was a trip a couple of years back & it was Kona winds for the entire two weeks we were there & plenty of vog. I had on a whim, booked F for the three of us, because once we weighed the baggage fee & it ended up being $25 more overall & to me, the extra stuff it is worth it. The only place that is Air Conditioned in that entire airport is the Hawaiian lounge, which consists of a prefab building with only the most basic of services & unattended, you get a code to use on a keypad. But on that day, thank God for that tiny little box to wait in for our short hop to Kahului.

If there were jetbridges at KOA, they would need an entire new terminal built as well, the current one is ground level & not enclosed. Maui & Kauai have air conditioned waiting rooms & jetbbridges. I love Molokai Airport for being so darn authentic, ever since I started flying there back in 1979, it has not changed one iota, even the big Island map. Gate one & two serve very well still, in the day one was TS & the other HA. Then TS changed to AQ & the 737's turned into Twotters & the frequencies increased. With HA the SD-330's went away & MKK was two daily DC-9's & then the Dash-7's purchased for the new airport in Maui JHM, a perfect STOL aircraft for the short runway. Then HA went back to the twice daily DC-9's & then left MKK & LNY to WP/AQ. Now once again HA is back with Empire flying the ATR-42's for them to the littlest islands.

On the topic of Guam, it came up in Cranky Flier's interview with HA CEO Peter Ingram, published today. My takeaway is that while it is a market they're aware of, we shouldn't expect to see HA flying there anytime soon. It's a bit too far for the A321neo, and a lot of the capacity into GUM is coming from Asia with a fair amount of LCC. It sounds like they do have people asking for it but not enough to support the A330.

https://crankyflier.com/2019/08/22/how- ... the-aisle/

JD Powers: HNL is #22 out of 25 largest US airports.
Detailed story on HNL. $3.2 billion... and the wiki buses remain.
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/08/ ... 7b29bac309

Questions about A380 operations at HNL.

I understand that the new ANA lounge offers direct access to the upper deck cabin for the flight leaving gate C4. Is there direct aircraft access from the lounge to the second A380 gate?

On the days that ANA operate 2 A380 flights, which flight typically leaves from gate C4?

Three liveries for the Honus, Blue, Green, and Orange. I think ex-NRT is the first arrival, and gets C4.
https://www.ana.co.jp/en/us/hawaii24/ai ... p201907368

NH operates a "Suite Lounge" and a regular "Lounge" at HNL.https://www.ana.co.jp/en/us/serviceinfo ... l/hnl.html
Lounge jetbridge is only to upper deck on Gate C4.
https://thepointsguy.com/news/ana-new-h ... y-to-open/

WPvsMW wrote:

mcg wrote:

WPvsMW wrote:

Not only OGG and LIH, but KOA (no air bridges) and HNL ("wiki" buses... but "wiki" means quick, which they are not) would benefit from being managed by an Airport Authority. The bill to create an Airport Authority died in the 2019 Hawaii Legislature... for the FOURTH year in a row.

I wouldn't change a thing at KOA, it's in interesting experience and very Hawaiian.

When KOA has (July-Sept) SIN levels of heat and humidity, an airbridge would be very welcome.

Boo hoo. It’s the tropics. The lack of airbridges is not an issue considering how many airports around the world use remote stands.

KOA does need to provide more shade in various waiting and screening areas though

there is a new centralized screening checkpoint being built.

When will Hawaiian announce their next US destination

After OGG/LAS (starts in Dec. 2019)?
Network planners at HA follow this thread... but I think such announcements will be, as usual, in the News Room.
https://newsroom.hawaiianairlines.com/releases

I think the changes coming about for HNL, when finally all completed, will not necessarily transform the airport,but make operations a bit better for the volume they are seeing. Recently I was traveling inter-island. Upon my return I noted that the taxi time from the runway to the gate at Hawaiian was reduced with the new taxiways built in that area. Rightsizing the airport for continued development will go a long way to addressing the traffic jam of planes that compete for gates at key times of the day. This could also be an entre to other airlines (Frontier) to start some sort of service to the islands.

On the other hand, there is also a growing narrative of which the amount of tourism to the islands has gotten too much. The new chief of the Hawaii Tourism Authority has shifted the focus of the state agency from building more tourism volume to managing the volume that Hawaii gets, currently. Needless to say these competing visions will land squarely at the gates and runways of HNL, OGG, LIH and KOA as developments arise and narratives developed as to what is "too much tourism"

What HNL needs is to start limiting the number of flights in the midday rush. Every day from 10-2 planes are sitting on the taxiways waiting for gates to open and yet airlines continue to add flights in that window. Yes the schedules are based on hub structure, etc. but the airport is half empty all other times so something needs to force airlines to operate at other times to reduce congestion.

Esp., for NH's Honus. Construction has removed about half of the pedestrian space in the central part of HNL Term. 2, and that space now looks like ATL B or C concourses during the mid-day crunch.

Sounds like WN is planning on increasing Daytime only handstand parking at HNL. G7A, G7B and G7C. Gates G7B and G7C will be used between 09:00-06:00 when the remote parking remains vacant.

Flyguy

I checked the flight records from BTS for last February
Daily flights miles, average number of seats (278 indicates all A330, 189 indicates all A321, something else indicates combination of A330s and A321s).
2338 OGG SFO 278 average seats
2349 OGG OAK 189
2355 OGG SJC 189
2398 HNL SFO 278
2409 HNL OAK 189
2417 HNL SJC 202
2457 LIH OAK 189
2462 HNL SMF 278
2486 OGG LAX 278
2504 KOA LAX 189
2541 OGG SAN 192
2562 OGG PDX 192
2569 HNL LGB 189
2603 HNL PDX 214
2614 HNL SAN 278
2615 LIH LAX 189
2640 OGG SEA 278
2677 HNL SEA 278
2917 HNL PHX 278
4983 HNL JFK 278

These flights are not daily
2599 HNL PPG 278 less than daily flight (Pago Pago International Airport )
2556 HNL LAX 278 multiple flights per day
2762 HNL LAS 278 multiple flights per day

Obviously since February BOS was added to the schedule, and SMF has been downsized from A330 to A321.

Other than that, there seems to be nothing changed in the schedule that was not planned when Hawaiian Airlines ordered the A321 about 3-4 years ago. Other than possibly downsizing in Sacramento there is no obvious changes in response to Southwestern entering the market.

wnflyguy wrote:

Sounds like WN is planning on increasing Daytime only handstand parking at HNL. G7A, G7B and G7C. Gates G7B and G7C will be used between 09:00-06:00 when the remote parking remains vacant.

Flyguy

I don’t know where you hear things but uhh...what?

PacoMartin wrote:

I checked the flight records from BTS for last February
Daily flights miles, average number of seats (278 indicates all A330, 189 indicates all A321, something else indicates combination of A330s and A321s).
2338 OGG SFO 278 average seats
2349 OGG OAK 189
2355 OGG SJC 189
2398 HNL SFO 278
2409 HNL OAK 189
2417 HNL SJC 202
2457 LIH OAK 189
2462 HNL SMF 278
2486 OGG LAX 278
2504 KOA LAX 189
2541 OGG SAN 192
2562 OGG PDX 192
2569 HNL LGB 189
2603 HNL PDX 214
2614 HNL SAN 278
2615 LIH LAX 189
2640 OGG SEA 278
2677 HNL SEA 278
2917 HNL PHX 278
4983 HNL JFK 278

These flights are not daily
2599 HNL PPG 278 less than daily flight (Pago Pago International Airport )
2556 HNL LAX 278 multiple flights per day
2762 HNL LAS 278 multiple flights per day

Obviously since February BOS was added to the schedule, and SMF has been downsized from A330 to A321.

Other than that, there seems to be nothing changed in the schedule that was not planned when Hawaiian Airlines ordered the A321 about 3-4 years ago. Other than possibly downsizing in Sacramento there is no obvious changes in response to Southwestern entering the market.

Weird coincidence, but HA up-gauged SMF-HNL back to A332 this week according to FlightAware.

wnflyguy wrote:

Sounds like WN is planning on increasing Daytime only handstand parking at HNL. G7A, G7B and G7C. Gates G7B and G7C will be used between 09:00-06:00 when the remote parking remains vacant.

Flyguy

If you are talking about the handstands past G10...You cannot plan flights on them!!! You have constant parking on those spaces between 1000-1500. I am not sure if you have seen the gate holding area in HNL for WN, but with 3 flights there, the area is FULL!!!! You work for WN obviously, so is there any way that you can board multiple flights out of the same jetway door at the same time???

DaCubbyBearBar wrote:

wnflyguy wrote:

Sounds like WN is planning on increasing Daytime only handstand parking at HNL. G7A, G7B and G7C. Gates G7B and G7C will be used between 09:00-06:00 when the remote parking remains vacant.

Flyguy

If you are talking about the handstands past G10...You cannot plan flights on them!!! You have constant parking on those spaces between 1000-1500. I am not sure if you have seen the gate holding area in HNL for WN, but with 3 flights there, the area is FULL!!!! You work for WN obviously, so is there any way that you can board multiple flights out of the same jetway door at the same time???

WN has 4 gates, G7-G10. Right now because most of the flights are concentrated at G7 and G8, the airport will still park a wide-body on the G9 and G10 space when WN isn’t using them. Currently there are multiple periods during the day where 3 of the 4 gates are occupied by WN. In January when the new flights are added there will be multiple times throughout the day where all 4 gates will be occupied.

It’s challenging, that’s for sure.

KanaHawaii wrote:

The new chief of the Hawaii Tourism Authority has shifted the focus of the state agency from building more tourism volume to managing the volume that Hawaii gets, currently.

I feel that way about Las Vegas who is wrestling with an airport that cannot possibly sustain the growth. Tourism Authority should concentrate on finding ways to get people to spend an extra night. You already have millions of tourists, and if they stay one more night that should keep the hotels full.

I flew HNL/OGG this week on WN, and when departing HNL, gates G7, G8, and G10 were boarding concurrently. It was the first time I had seen G10 used.

Succinct comparison, the legroom on WN is worth the walk, even if you park in HNL T1 (my preferred motorcycle parking), even though T1 is all HA gates. At 6'2", legroom is far more important to me than the price difference or free checked bags. So, it's a triple win: legroom, free checked bags, and half-price.

At the entrance to the E gates there’s a rendering of the terminal with parallel concourses where the current Diamond Head concourse is now. Is that going to happen, or was it replaced by something else?

Prost wrote:

At the entrance to the E gates there’s a rendering of the terminal with parallel concourses where the current Diamond Head concourse is now. Is that going to happen, or was it replaced by something else?

Last I heard, it was going to be an L-shaped concourse extending Diamond Head of F1/2 into the parking lots and then mauka towards the road, requiring the demolishing of the Diamond Head concourse, but so many plans have changed so I don’t know at this point.

Thanks.

AS adjusts Calif. to KOA routes. Looks to me like a network adjustment in response to WN's lift from the Bay Area to HI.
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/10/ ... -and-kona/

HA has been using A321neos for a while now, are they happy with the performance?

HA is certainly happy with SFC of the A321n vs. the B763.

WPvsMW wrote:

AS adjusts Calif. to KOA routes. Looks to me like a network adjustment in response to WN's lift from the Bay Area to HI.
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/10/ ... -and-kona/

Except WN is not competition on either of the two routes being axed. SMF-KOA has no competition when AS stops flying the route, although it's highly likely that WN will jump on it ASAP. But SFO-KOA isn't working, I have to wonder how AS can not fill one 738 a day from the huge metro that is SFO, to one of the most travelled destinations out of California. UA will remain on that route with multiple daily flights.

In fact according to another article I read on apple news, was that AS is adding flights from SJC (where WN is the competition) & from SAN (which has been announced WN will launch HI flights from), to me that seems like AS cancelling a non-hub route SMF-OGG, like they did with BLI to KOA & cancelling a route where they are likely getting trounced by the 800 pound gorilla that is UA & going to battle WN in markets they want to remain relative in, like SAN & SJC.

WPvsMW wrote:

HA is certainly happy with SFC of the A321n vs. the B763.

OK, thank you for info.

RWA380 wrote:

Except WN is not competition on either of the two routes being axed. ....

I know, that's why I wrote "Calif. to KOA". All of WN's mainland/HI service is still from California, so the network elements at play are Californina/Hawaii, or even more specifically, California/OGG.KOA.HNL.

I would restate the premise of your second paragraph as the Calif/HI networks are in flux after WN's entry, AS is scrambling, and HA will soon be making adjustments. "Free checked bags" is putting the pinch on the golden goose in the HA pond.

RWA380 wrote:

WPvsMW wrote:

AS adjusts Calif. to KOA routes. Looks to me like a network adjustment in response to WN's lift from the Bay Area to HI.
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/10/ ... -and-kona/

Except WN is not competition on either of the two routes being axed. SMF-KOA has no competition when AS stops flying the route, although it's highly likely that WN will jump on it ASAP. But SFO-KOA isn't working, I have to wonder how AS can not fill one 738 a day from the huge metro that is SFO, to one of the most travelled destinations out of California. UA will remain on that route with multiple daily flights.

In fact according to another article I read on apple news, was that AS is adding flights from SJC (where WN is the competition) & from SAN (which has been announced WN will launch HI flights from), to me that seems like AS cancelling a non-hub route SMF-OGG, like they did with BLI to KOA & cancelling a route where they are likely getting trounced by the 800 pound gorilla that is UA & going to battle WN in markets they want to remain relative in, like SAN & SJC.

But, but, but...the SFO hub that AS is building!

WPvsMW wrote:

RWA380 wrote:

Except WN is not competition on either of the two routes being axed. ....

I know, that's why I wrote "Calif. to KOA". All of WN's mainland/HI service is still from California, so the network elements at play are Californina/Hawaii, or even more specifically, California/OGG.KOA.HNL.

I would restate the premise of your second paragraph as the Calif/HI networks are in flux after WN's entry, AS is scrambling, and HA will soon be making adjustments. "Free checked bags" is putting the pinch on the golden goose in the HA pond.

I do not see WN as the threat to AS that much. Indeed they have 2 bags fly free, but AS has multiple cabins with premium economy & first class. AS has better meal options (both are BoB) , better entertainment options & is also offering assigned seating. I think HA is going to be paying more of a price with WN's arrival. I've heard rumor WN wants to fly LGB-HNL/OGG/KOA at some point. only rumors.

WN would be wise to target ONT for HI flights, I think they should go as far as LAS when the MAX starts operating HI flights, I believe between LAS & OAK, WN can single connect the lions shae of their network.

There will definately be those shopping on price alone, there will be the loyalists to both carriers, there will be the ones looking for certain other amenities, like 2 free bags or the ability to upgrade. In my opinion there is more than enough California - Hawaii to fill several 737's a day.

The big difference is WN's readiness to fly Inter-Island, that I knew would be a big success for them. We flew in 2017 over there & were paying darn near $100 a segment on HA. I ended up booking us all in first class for our three inter-island flights, because after bag fees & the coach fares, it was a meager $25-30 fare difference a leg & then we get the lounge access, the good seats on the plane & a couple drinks. Plus the first class tags they put on your luggage, had our bags on the baggage claim belt right up front of the remaining baggage, that was worth the extra money.

Now I would almost certainly use WN between Islands, although I like flying on the 717's HA has. In fact when we go over election time next year (a tradition for us) we will fly on the lone WN flight OGG-KOA.

AirFiero wrote:

RWA380 wrote:

WPvsMW wrote:

AS adjusts Calif. to KOA routes. Looks to me like a network adjustment in response to WN's lift from the Bay Area to HI.
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/10/ ... -and-kona/

Except WN is not competition on either of the two routes being axed. SMF-KOA has no competition when AS stops flying the route, although it's highly likely that WN will jump on it ASAP. But SFO-KOA isn't working, I have to wonder how AS can not fill one 738 a day from the huge metro that is SFO, to one of the most travelled destinations out of California. UA will remain on that route with multiple daily flights.

In fact according to another article I read on apple news, was that AS is adding flights from SJC (where WN is the competition) & from SAN (which has been announced WN will launch HI flights from), to me that seems like AS cancelling a non-hub route SMF-OGG, like they did with BLI to KOA & cancelling a route where they are likely getting trounced by the 800 pound gorilla that is UA & going to battle WN in markets they want to remain relative in, like SAN & SJC.

But, but, but...the SFO hub that AS is building!

Acquisitions are an odd thing, SFO will always be an important hub for AS, while the cities may change as the years go by, their presence will grow. I think AS has not had to battle so hard in one city for customers ever. UA is so entrenched that it's never going to be their strongest hub, but it's an important one in an important city for a carrier that wants a big West Coast presence.

VX was acquired for that real estate & short term leases on the Airbuses to keep flying the routes. AS knew that in order to have a snowballs chance of being the West Coast airline, meant they needed a decent presence at SFO. The fate of VX routes were evaluated one by one, for both connectivity & O/D. There are more cuts coming & also some new adds that may bring into picture how AAG wishes to move forward. What you saw a month ago with 8 new PNW to California routes, expect more of that stuff & less T-CON & Mid-Con's. God only knows how this will all work out, if not, that'll just brings change again.

Waikiki as a Rodeo Drive with beaches. Likewise Malibu and Santa Barbara and Bay Area and SAN adjuncts are Lahaina, Kihei, Kona, and Kapaa. The latter are, in great measure, the former in tourist demographics. The problem is there is more demand than supply, the "California annexes" are saturated, esp. with new vacation rentals limited to resort areas (on Oahu), so the accommodation supply constraints are making airline network planning more complicated: the vacation rental, lowest airfare segment is shrinking because now vacation rental licensing enforcement in the Islands has teeth ($1000/day fine) and scores of newly hired inspectors. Most vacation rentals on Oahu were unlicensed and cannot now be licensed. For instance....

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/10/ ... on-rental/
(paywall)

Followup... vacation rental inventory on Oahu drops, fines up to $10,000/day. Impact on traffic to HNL not discussed in article.. but there is an inherent impact.
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/11/ ... cae90479e1

77H wrote:

I just read in PBN that AUS Airport Management has an incentive on offer for a nonstop to HNL. Perhaps HA will look into starting AUS. It’s a growing city with a vibrant economy and is the largest TX market that could realistically support a nonstop that isn’t already served.
77H

HNL - AUS is 3,763 miles

Air Transat is operating an A321neo from Montreal to Nice France
YUL-NCE is 3,818 miles

But Air Transat has a LR version. I don't think that Hawaiian Air can upgrade to a LR version for the last two deliveries of their A321neo.

So I imagine that you are talking about HA using one of their A330s with 278 seats as opposed to the smaller jet with 189 seats.

PacoMartin wrote:

77H wrote:

I just read in PBN that AUS Airport Management has an incentive on offer for a nonstop to HNL. Perhaps HA will look into starting AUS. It’s a growing city with a vibrant economy and is the largest TX market that could realistically support a nonstop that isn’t already served.
77H

HNL - AUS is 3,763 miles

Air Transat is operating an A321neo from Montreal to Nice France
YUL-NCE is 3,818 miles

But Air Transat has a LR version. I don't think that Hawaiian Air can upgrade to a LR version for the last two deliveries of their A321neo.

So I imagine that you are talking about HA using one of their A330s with 278 seats as opposed to the smaller jet with 189 seats.

Correct. I’m not amongst the people on A.Net who believe the standard 21N or 7M8/9/10 will be flying past PHX.

77H

77H wrote:

PacoMartin wrote:

77H wrote:

I just read in PBN that AUS Airport Management has an incentive on offer for a nonstop to HNL. Perhaps HA will look into starting AUS. It’s a growing city with a vibrant economy and is the largest TX market that could realistically support a nonstop that isn’t already served.
77H

HNL - AUS is 3,763 miles

Air Transat is operating an A321neo from Montreal to Nice France
YUL-NCE is 3,818 miles

But Air Transat has a LR version. I don't think that Hawaiian Air can upgrade to a LR version for the last two deliveries of their A321neo.

So I imagine that you are talking about HA using one of their A330s with 278 seats as opposed to the smaller jet with 189 seats.

Correct. I’m not amongst the people on A.Net who believe the standard 21N or 7M8/9/10 will be flying past PHX.

77H

I'm with you on that too.

AUS might be a good add for them...at least there'd be no nonstop competition. And while I'm sure Airbus would happily take more $$$ from HA to upgrade those last two frames to LR's, it doesn't seem to make much sense to me for HA to have a sub-fleet of just two LR's. That being said...and I haven't seen anyone ask this in any other thread I've read on the site...can a standard 321N be retrofitted to LR standard? If HA had, say, 6 or so LR's, that might make sense. They could use them to bump up frequency on PPT and start 1 or 2 new SoPac routes where the 332 would just be WAY too much capacity.

cathay747 wrote:

77H wrote:

PacoMartin wrote:

HNL - AUS is 3,763 miles

Air Transat is operating an A321neo from Montreal to Nice France
YUL-NCE is 3,818 miles

But Air Transat has a LR version. I don't think that Hawaiian Air can upgrade to a LR version for the last two deliveries of their A321neo.

So I imagine that you are talking about HA using one of their A330s with 278 seats as opposed to the smaller jet with 189 seats.

Correct. I’m not amongst the people on A.Net who believe the standard 21N or 7M8/9/10 will be flying past PHX.

77H

I'm with you on that too.

AUS might be a good add for them...at least there'd be no nonstop competition. And while I'm sure Airbus would happily take more $$$ from HA to upgrade those last two frames to LR's, it doesn't seem to make much sense to me for HA to have a sub-fleet of just two LR's. That being said...and I haven't seen anyone ask this in any other thread I've read on the site...can a standard 321N be retrofitted to LR standard? If HA had, say, 6 or so LR's, that might make sense. They could use them to bump up frequency on PPT and start 1 or 2 new SoPac routes where the 332 would just be WAY too much capacity.

Not sure if a standard 321N can be upgraded but for HA specifically figuring out where to fly them could be a challenge. As you mentioned they could increase frequency to PPT but beyond that there are isn’t really anywhere in Oceania not already connected to HNL that can support service. UA has Micronesia covered, FJ has APW and NAN covered and HA already flies to PPG and PPT.

I have doubts that any of these destinations could support 2 carriers even if it would bring much needed competition. I don’t see HA starting RAR, or TBU.

A more worthwhile venture in my opinion would have been to convert a small number of 321Ns to the 320N/19N frame or even the 223 which would likely allow them to access airports like BUR or SNA. However, with HA already serving LGB this is unlikely now.

If memory serves, AS has eliminated service out of BLI. The MAX groundings have impacted AC and WS service from YVR. Perhaps HA could syphon demand from the YVR market out of BLI.

77H

Westjet just upgraded their OGG flights to a 787...

77H wrote:

cathay747 wrote:

77H wrote:

Correct. I’m not amongst the people on A.Net who believe the standard 21N or 7M8/9/10 will be flying past PHX.

77H

I'm with you on that too.

AUS might be a good add for them...at least there'd be no nonstop competition. And while I'm sure Airbus would happily take more $$$ from HA to upgrade those last two frames to LR's, it doesn't seem to make much sense to me for HA to have a sub-fleet of just two LR's. That being said...and I haven't seen anyone ask this in any other thread I've read on the site...can a standard 321N be retrofitted to LR standard? If HA had, say, 6 or so LR's, that might make sense. They could use them to bump up frequency on PPT and start 1 or 2 new SoPac routes where the 332 would just be WAY too much capacity.

Not sure if a standard 321N can be upgraded but for HA specifically figuring out where to fly them could be a challenge. As you mentioned they could increase frequency to PPT but beyond that there are isn’t really anywhere in Oceania not already connected to HNL that can support service. UA has Micronesia covered, FJ has APW and NAN covered and HA already flies to PPG and PPT.

I have doubts that any of these destinations could support 2 carriers even if it would bring much needed competition. I don’t see HA starting RAR, or TBU.

A more worthwhile venture in my opinion would have been to convert a small number of 321Ns to the 320N/19N frame or even the 223 which would likely allow them to access airports like BUR or SNA. However, with HA already serving LGB this is unlikely now.

If memory serves, AS has eliminated service out of BLI. The MAX groundings have impacted AC and WS service from YVR. Perhaps HA could syphon demand from the YVR market out of BLI.

77H

I agree there really is not another Pacific Island destination that is viable on the 321neo's & I also fully agree HA will not have a sub fleet of 321LR's & the reasoning is, how much more range does the 321lr provide, that the current 32N does not?

Another member upthread, had compared HNL-AUS & YUL-NCE IIRC, Even if HA had the 321lr, it's still not comparable as one is ETOPS 120 & one is ETOPS 180, that will mean increased fuel capacity to fly the same mileage especially Westbound AUS-HNL, as the last third of that flight has no alternate but another Hawaiian airport.

AS has eliminated all Hawaii services out of BLI & they publicly stated it was to retain market share in Seattle & the flights were profitable, but declined to comment any further regarding, how profitable. I would assume that the BoD would not be happy to have them dropped if they were cash cows, so the move makes total business & financial sense.

I believe the furthest East we'll see HA's 32N's are LAS or maybe PHX. I really do not see Hawaiian operating yet another type, like the A-220 for example. For a carrier their size, they already have a pretty diverse fleet with the capable 332's, short turn 717's & the newer 32N's & their newest addition 787's coming in the nearer future.