You're right. I've flown in Makani Kai's Grand Caravan HNL/MKK... yes, it's a single. My point about the Grand Caravan to HPV is that I assume reduced payload with a single, so yields must be worse that with the Chieftain. Otherwise, why wouldn't they fly the C208?

Honu (NH A380) visits HNL on first test flight.
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/04/ ... u-airport/

WPvsMW wrote:

You're right. I've flown in Makani Kai's Grand Caravan HNL/MKK... yes, it's a single. My point about the Grand Caravan to HPV is that I assume reduced payload with a single, so yields must be worse that with the Chieftain. Otherwise, why wouldn't they fly the C208?

The runway at HPV is longer than JHM’s runway. Makani Kai and MW both operate C208s from there. Payload isn’t the issue.

My understanding is it has to do with the overwater distance between Oahu and Kauai not permitted while carrying passengers under Pt 135. I’m not sure the reg but think of it like the single engine analogous of ETOPS.
It is the same reason MW doesn’t fly to Kauai.

77H

You're right.
FAR § 135.183
Performance requirements: Land aircraft operated over water.
No person may operate a land aircraft carrying passengers over water unless—
(a) It is operated at an altitude that allows it to reach land in the case of engine failure;

WPvsMW wrote:

Makani Kai (non-member of IATA, no code) will launch HNL/HPV (Princeville, N. shore of Kauai) service on 01 May 2019 operating its 9-pax Piper Chieftain piston twins. By inference, their Cessna Grand Caravan twins can't operate from the 3,560 ft. strip at HPV with acceptable yields.

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/04/ ... u-flights/
https://www.kitv.com/story/40325224/kau ... r-20-years

HPV was originally the home of Princeville Airways, which evolved into Island Air (RIP 2017), but stopped service to HPV almost 25 years ago. With the frequent closures of Prince Kuhio Hwy due to accidents, and the growth of Princeville development, the HNL/HPV service may survive.

What use has HPV seen since the departure of scheduled services? Very little information on the airport available on the internet.

A Caravan can only be like 25 or 26 miles from shore- depends on how far it can glide. Thats why Mokulele will hug the Kohala Coast before turning north when flying Kona to Maui.

vfw614 wrote:

What use has HPV seen since the departure of scheduled services? Very little information on the airport available on the internet.

Since interisland service stopped about 25 years ago, activity at HPV (privately owned by Princeville Corp., the developer of Princeville) has been helicopter tours and private jet charters.

https://www.jal.co.jp/en/info/inter/190412.html
JAL is providing not just self check in kiosk but also self baggage drop for passengers to check in baggage by themselves at the HNL airport
Does that mean most passengers will not need to interact with JAL staffs before they arrive at gate?

Yes, in theory.... just like HA's baggage-check kiosks in HNL Terminal 1, but even better, since JL's system doesn't require you to queue in line to hand over your checked bag(s) to a screener. Moving 2 suitcases down the queue in Terminal 1 is quite a dance (but you'd be in Terminal 2 if flying HA to Japan). Flying HA from HNL has a unique set of challenges that no other carriers have. http://hidot.hawaii.gov/airports/hawaii ... ns-at-hnl/

Mokulele Airways (MW) resumes OGG/LNY (Lanai City)... Grand Caravans (unless they use one of their two Pilatus PC-12s).
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/04/ ... and-lanai/

MW is now owned by Southern Airways (9X), which has been on a buying spree.

WN starts interisland service on 28 April 2019, HNL/OGG, 4x daily. HNL/KOA starts 12 May, 4x daily.
New TPAC service: SJC/OGG starts 05 May. SJC/HNL starts 26 May. Connection "bank" at HNL to enable OAK/KOA and SJC/KOA.

Tom Nealon (WN Pres.): Pax "satisfaction with the in-flight [TPAC on WN] experience is actually higher than the rest of our system.”
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/04/ ... 00f2528ce1

Kudos to WN's network planners and flight ops. To date, flawless.

I recently just got home from my first WN HNL trip thanks to the cheap kick off fare sale. While in HNL I hooked up with a long ago WN friend to discuss all things HNL.
He said they were told recently because of the MAX8 grounding SMF-HNL and SMF-OGG starts in the first week of August.
Inter island HNL-LIH sometime in Early October.
HNL-SAN and OGG-SAN in Mid November.

Everything else pushed to spring & summer 2020.

The MAX8 grounding pushed a massive summer expansion from 2019 into 2020.

He didn't have any information on when anything would go on sale.
But given that HNL-OGG starts on Sunday I'm gonna guess something will be announced during the service kickoff ceremony in HNL.

Flyguy

I work for southwest. Nobody has told us anything about SMF Hawaii service being delayed until 2020. Your friend is telling u rumors

wnflyguy wrote:

I recently just got home from my first WN HNL trip thanks to the cheap kick off fare sale. While in HNL I hooked up with a long ago WN friend to discuss all things HNL.
He said they were told recently because of the MAX8 grounding SMF-HNL and SMF-OGG starts in the first week of August.
Inter island HNL-LIH sometime in Early October.
HNL-SAN and OGG-SAN in Mid November.

Everything else pushed to spring & summer 2020.

The MAX8 grounding pushed a massive summer expansion from 2019 into 2020.

He didn't have any information on when anything would go on sale.
But given that HNL-OGG starts on Sunday I'm gonna guess something will be announced during the service kickoff ceremony in HNL.

Flyguy

Employees have been given a report date for LIH earlier than your timeline suggests. Last I heard it still wasn’t known how the MAX timeline could impact Hawaii service so like everything else regarding Hawaii timelines, it’s all rumor.

You keep expecting announcements at local kickoff ceremonies but it never happens. I wouldn’t expect this to be any different.

Justjoshua wrote:

I work for southwest. Nobody has told us anything about SMF Hawaii service being delayed until 2020. Your friend is telling u rumors

Justjoshua, welcome to a.nut.

Second Honu test flight to HNL completed, shown at renovated gate C4 (old gate 29).
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/05/ ... a-big-way/
Link has link to pix of a/c F, J, and cockpit: pix 18-20. Go "backwards" from pix 1 to avoid smiling governor and lounge shots.
How can JL compete with bidet toilets in every lav?

NH commenced (24 May 2019) regular service, HNL/TYO, on Honu (A380 in sea turtle livery).
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/05/ ... and-tokyo/

HNL has NH's only NH-operated overseas lounge (F pax only). The mediocre UA/NH joint lounge will remain open.

ANA will add a second A380 to the Hawaii market in July and a third in July of 2020.

WPvsMW wrote:

NH commenced (24 May 2019) regular service, HNL/TYO, on Honu (A380 in sea turtle livery).
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/05/ ... and-tokyo/

HNL has NH's only NH-operated overseas lounge (F pax only). The mediocre UA/NH joint lounge will remain open.

ANA will add a second A380 to the Hawaii market in July and a third in July of 2020.

I am still not understanding some of NH's logic with this A380 venture.

> first off...having a sub-fleet of only 3 frames of one type has got to be an expensive proposition

> what do they need F-class for to what is largely a leisure/beach market? I have suspected for some time that they configured them with F because they eventually will put them on a few frequencies to markets like JFK/LAX/LHR during periods of lower Hawaii demand, but if not...???

> given that the F cabin only has EIGHT seats, why on EARTH do they need a F-class lounge which seats SEVENTY???? Is it going to be a joint-use F-class lounge for other Star carriers as well as NH?

> seems to me J-class is rather large for a leisure/beach market (min. 10+ seats more than the 787's they've been flying to HNL); maybe they can fill it, I don't know, but I would think a smaller J-cabin around the same size as the 787's but a bigger Prem. Econ. cabin would have been in order. However, again, if they've got a secret plan to deploy these to JFK/LAX/LHR as I mentioned above, well then yeah, the large J-cabin makes sense.

> as a humorous aside...I hope those bidet-toilets are simpler to figure out how to use vs. the one we had in the master bath of the condo we stayed in at the Ilikai in HNL a couple years ago...you needed to be a NASA engineer to figure it out, which we gave up on LOL

First... the easy question to answer. NH's target market is nihonjin, all of whom are certified operators of bidet toilets... even inakajin (country folk, some of whom went from squat toilets to bidet toilets).

The tougher question is the one you raised, cabin configuration on the Honu. My personal opinion is that NH is out to totally dominate TYO/HNL in a fare war after all three Honu are in operation. If NH's planners are correct, matching CASM with LF, they will succeed, to the detriment of JL, UA, DL, and HA in that city-pair. If there is a Plan B (JFK/LAX/LHR), I don't think we'll see it for a few years. Here's where it gets curiouser and curiouser... NH is selling J and F at astronomical fares... $10K for J and $15K for F.... 3 months advance. Y is $1K and W is $1.6K... about average. Could the F and J pricing be intended get *A elites to burn miles and certs?

WPvsMW wrote:

First... the easy question to answer. NH's target market is nihonjin, all of whom are certified operators of bidet toilets... even inakajin (country folk, some of whom went from squat toilets to bidet toilets).

The tougher question is the one you raised, cabin configuration on the Honu. My personal opinion is that NH is out to totally dominate TYO/HNL in a fare war after all three Honu are in operation. If NH's planners are correct, matching CASM with LF, they will succeed, to the detriment of JL, UA, DL, and HA in that city-pair. If there is a Plan B (JFK/LAX/LHR), I don't think we'll see it for a few years. Here's where it gets curiouser and curiouser... NH is selling J and F at astronomical fares... $10K for J and $15K for F.... 3 months advance. Y is $1K and W is $1.6K... about average. Could the F and J pricing be intended get *A elites to burn miles and certs?

ROFL Well hopefully there is an instructional video on the IFE system for us poor gaijin!

As to your theory...I think I'll agree that they are certainly on track to dominate the market in terms of ASK's what with double-daily Honu's planned. The fares you mentioned are outrageous. Seriously? But your idea about that pricing being a nudge to get *A elites to burn miles doesn't make sense to me, because then they'd wind up filling all those J seats (and IMHO needless F seats) with non-rev. traffic, which would kill their RASM and yield. Mind I'm sure NH carries tons of cargo on the route, and will be able to increase that tonnage with Honu's, but I'm speaking strictly from a pax standpoint; I doubt NH intends to subsidize pax losses with cargo profits...that's just not sustainable if you ask me.

Why doesn't Ohana (by Hawaiian) fly into Princeville with their ATR42-500s? The regional turboprop has the capability to use the short 3,560 ft. runway although its 60 ft. width might make for a tight turning radius. One would think the number of luxury resorts around Princeville would more than fill the seats with premium passengers connecting from HNL.

highflier92660 wrote:

Why doesn't Ohana (by Hawaiian) fly into Princeville with their ATR42-500s? The regional turboprop has the capability to use the short 3,560 ft. runway although its 60 ft. width might make for a tight turning radius. One would think the number of luxury resorts around Princeville would more than fill the seats with premium passengers connecting from HNL.

The weight bearing capacity only shows 30,000lbs for single wheel landing gear.

Both Ohana's ATR42-500s and Island Air's DHC8-100s that used to land in Princeville are dual wheel aircraft. At the low gross weights flown on the short interisland route both aircraft are below the weight bearing capacity of the runway. Both the aircraft and adequacy of the airport facility are not issues so it's a bit of a mystery why a larger, more premium passenger friendly aircraft is not used.

PVL has no TSA and it takes forever to get TSA into a new airport.

highflier92660 wrote:

Both Ohana's ATR42-500s and Island Air's DHC8-100s that used to land in Princeville are dual wheel aircraft. At the low gross weights flown on the short interisland route both aircraft are below the weight bearing capacity of the runway. Both the aircraft and adequacy of the airport facility are not issues so it's a bit of a mystery why a larger, more premium passenger friendly aircraft is not used.

I'm aware that the ATR and Dash are both dual wheel aircraft. The single wheel weight limit is the only one published. When did either the ATR or Dash-8 serve Princeville? The largest airliner I can recall was the Twin Otter.

CanesFan wrote:

highflier92660 wrote:

I'm aware that the ATR and Dash are both dual wheel aircraft. The single wheel weight limit is the only one published. When did either the ATR or Dash-8 serve Princeville? The largest airliner I can recall was the Twin Otter.

You are correct that passenger service into Princeville was via the 19-passenger Twin Otter. As far as I know there have been no ATR aircraft flown into the airport either. However in the mid 1990s I undestand (by way of someone who was flying tour helicopters at Princeville at the time) Island Air flew route-proving flights into the airport. The airline had recently taken delivery of a Dash 8-100 and perhaps was testing the viability of flying a 37-passenger Part 121 aircraft into there much like they did at Kapalua on Maui. From what he said the Dash-8 must have been at a very low gross weight because the takeoff roll was 2,000-feet or less.

Princeville is not a certificated airport, so no scheduled ops with more than 9-seats.

Does anyone know how SY flights are doing load wise.?? Thanks

IDK how SY is doing CONUS/HNL (IIRC, SY is not daily to HNL from any of SY's 3 gateways), but I think the new pilot base in PDX may be connected to SY's plans for Hawaii ... trying to preempt WN?
https://www.southwest.com/hawaii/

Sad news. 9 souls died in fiery crash of a skydiving company's King Air at Dillingham Airfield on Oahu tonight (21 June 2019). Plane was landing. Debris field was 50' x 50', and on airport fence line bordering Farrington Hwy rather than on or near runway.
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/06/ ... -mokuleia/
https://goo.gl/maps/W4AgsoaGKYPpVGt7A
Dillingham Airfield was converted from USAAF to general aviation after WWII, and commercial use is primarily by skydiving and soaring companies.

Operator of King Air not yet identified.

King Air operator identified as Oahu Parachute Center, the smallest of three skydiving companies based at Dillingham Airfield. Accident now thought to be upon takeoff.
(same link as preceding post; updated article)

Beechcraft BE65-A90. Indications are it lost power in the L engine during TO, and may have been overweight (11 on board).
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/06/ ... 10ed22dfad

Re: NH and F.

The wealthy Asian traffic has rebounded in Hawai'i. There *is* demand for a non-Y/non-cattle class product and I believe NH is doing their best to capture and own that market. NH is also not a HUGE participant in the ZED program, so I doubt you'll see any non-revs in those upper classes as they don't even offer the same level of flight benefits that most North American carriers offer.

Re: Beech A90 crash (highest fatality crash in the U.S. since 2011)
NTSB prelim report is out, but no root cause assessment yet. Likely to be W&B... tail-heavy, maybe overweight.
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/07/ ... cb45048f24

No FAA a/c registration, no skydiving ops certificate or lease from state DOT AptDiv, or employee documentation for the "parachute rigging" company behind the fatal crash.
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/07/ ... f46e9fa9ed

IMO, "fly by night" doesn't capture the gross negligence/willful intent of the operator in this fact pattern.

If VIN numbers are checked in an auto inspection, one would hope that tail numbers are checked in an a/c inspection. Wait.... that assumes the a/c was inspected.

WPvsMW wrote:

No FAA a/c registration, no skydiving ops certificate or lease from state DOT AptDiv, or employee documentation for the "parachute rigging" company behind the fatal crash.
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/07/ ... f46e9fa9ed

IMO, "fly by night" doesn't capture the gross negligence/willful intent of the operator in this fact pattern.

If VIN numbers are checked in an auto inspection, one would hope that tail numbers are checked in an a/c inspection. Wait.... that assumes the a/c was inspected.

The article says that there was no aircraft registration with the Hawaii DOT ($10 fee). Probably because it was (FAA) registered in California. Nothing to do with the tail number.

WN's CONUS/HI and interisland service is outperforming remainder of WN network!
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/07/ ... ext-month/

Moreover, record performance for entire network in latest quarter, even with MAX groundings. Sheds some light on the EWR station closure ... more RSM in Hawaii.

WN maxes out Hawaii service.... all major airports interisland and added W. Coast gateways.
"The carrier soon plans to begin offering service to the Hawaiian islands from both Sacramento and San Diego, as well as bring Southwest service to both Lihue, on Kauai, and Hilo on Hawaii island."

Hawaii is a two mainline carrier market again.

WN's sales for its new CONUS routes (SMF/HNL, OAK/KOA, and SJC/LIH) and interisland routes (HNL/ITO, HNL/LIH, and ... KOA/OGG!!!) begin today (15 Aug 2019). Operation of those segments starts 19 Jan.2019... all without a base in HNL, and TMK, not even a RON. Sales also start today for OAK/LIH and SJC/KOA (ops start Jan. 21).

SAN/HNL planned for 1H2020.

"Interisland sales prices for travel through March 4 start at $29 one-way. Special trans-Pacific pricing starts at $99 each way. * * * Once we see what California does, we’ll see if we want to move further inland,” Watterson said."

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/08/ ... n-january/

HA's interisland fares on routes it shares with WN are now about half the fare prior to WN's entry.

Well, Hawaii is certainly panning out to be a winner for them. Makes you wonder if now they wished they'd started is sooner!

I'll pass though and stick with HA for both PHX-Hawaii and inter-island...with AA as second fiddle for PHX-HI if I'm desperate.

WPvsMW wrote:

WN's sales for its new CONUS routes (SMF/HNL, OAK/KOA, and SJC/LIH) and interisland routes (HNL/ITO, HNL/LIH, and ... KOA/OGG!!!) begin today (15 Aug 2019). Operation of those segments starts 19 Jan.2019... all without a base in HNL, and TMK, not even a RON. Sales also start today for OAK/LIH and SJC/KOA (ops start Jan. 21).

SAN/HNL planned for 1H2020.

"Interisland sales prices for travel through March 4 start at $29 one-way. Special trans-Pacific pricing starts at $99 each way. * * * Once we see what California does, we’ll see if we want to move further inland,” Watterson said."

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/08/ ... n-january/

HA's interisland fares on routes it shares with WN are now about half the fare prior to WN's entry.

So more money losing prices locals will call fair. Then HA will go under and everyone will cry again. The cycle repeats.

ikramerica wrote:

So more money losing prices locals will call fair. Then HA will go under and everyone will cry again. The cycle repeats.

Disagree. Locals call WN's fares "promotional", as does WN. When promotional inventory is sold out, WN and HA fares are roughly the same... but WN seems to have a larger inventory of promotional seats.

HA going under... no way. End of a monopoly, yes.

Any chance of Hawaiian with its new 787's offering service to GUM (Guam) to compete with UA!? Or service to Asian cities like HKG (when it calms down again) or SIN!? I know HA suspended service to TPE and PEK. It would be great for HA to try SIN as its a strategic port of the US Military and Singapore's in the VISA Waiver Program.

Google Maps recently updated its aerial photography for HNL and you can clearly see the new Mauka Concourse under construction at the interisland terminal. Never thought I'd see the day.

Would be nice to see the sad-sack terminal buildings at OGG and LIH get a little bit of love. Other than having their roofs painted green. those facilities haven't changed in almost 30 years.

Not only OGG and LIH, but KOA (no air bridges) and HNL ("wiki" buses... but "wiki" means quick, which they are not) would benefit from being managed by an Airport Authority. The bill to create an Airport Authority died in the 2019 Hawaii Legislature... for the FOURTH year in a row.

x1234 wrote:

Any chance of Hawaiian with its new 787's offering service to GUM (Guam) to compete with UA!? Or service to Asian cities like HKG (when it calms down again) or SIN!? I know HA suspended service to TPE and PEK. It would be great for HA to try SIN as its a strategic port of the US Military and Singapore's in the VISA Waiver Program.

I don’t see the 787 going to Guam. I expect the 787 will initially be deployed on the longest routes and extending the network to places a bit beyond the A330s reach. The A330 can comfortably do HNL-GUM; I’m not sure about the A321neo (which feels to me like the perfect plane to open more island markets) but maybe the A321XLR (which Hawaiian hasn’t ordered).

hawaiian717 wrote:

x1234 wrote:

Any chance of Hawaiian with its new 787's offering service to GUM (Guam) to compete with UA!? Or service to Asian cities like HKG (when it calms down again) or SIN!? I know HA suspended service to TPE and PEK. It would be great for HA to try SIN as its a strategic port of the US Military and Singapore's in the VISA Waiver Program.

I don’t see the 787 going to Guam. I expect the 787 will initially be deployed on the longest routes and extending the network to places a bit beyond the A330s reach. The A330 can comfortably do HNL-GUM; I’m not sure about the A321neo (which feels to me like the perfect plane to open more island markets) but maybe the A321XLR (which Hawaiian hasn’t ordered).

My understanding is that there is some sort of gentlemen’s agreement between UA and HA that keeps them from starting GUM in exchange for UA staying out of the Hawaiian inter island market. Maybe someone has more insight.

77H

77H wrote:

hawaiian717 wrote:

x1234 wrote:

Any chance of Hawaiian with its new 787's offering service to GUM (Guam) to compete with UA!? Or service to Asian cities like HKG (when it calms down again) or SIN!? I know HA suspended service to TPE and PEK. It would be great for HA to try SIN as its a strategic port of the US Military and Singapore's in the VISA Waiver Program.

I don’t see the 787 going to Guam. I expect the 787 will initially be deployed on the longest routes and extending the network to places a bit beyond the A330s reach. The A330 can comfortably do HNL-GUM; I’m not sure about the A321neo (which feels to me like the perfect plane to open more island markets) but maybe the A321XLR (which Hawaiian hasn’t ordered).

My understanding is that there is some sort of gentlemen’s agreement between UA and HA that keeps them from starting GUM in exchange for UA staying out of the Hawaiian inter island market. Maybe someone has more insight.

77H

I do not know everything related to it, but HA served GUM before with DC-8's & CO trounced them hard. HA did not have the most key ingredient to GUM, contracts with the US Government, cargo & passengers were routed on the daily CO DC-10 & 0f course the Island Hopper offered connections on both ends of the network.

http://www.departedflights.com/HA040289.html - One of my favorite HA route maps, I bet a couple of these past dots are ripe for the A-321neo's HA has & is continuing to receive.

I do not know if UA or CO had any gentleman's agreement, in Hawaii, when big local businesses are concerned anything is possible & the "rules" are confusing & inconsistent.

What I do know, it was a very aggressive pushback from the late Senator Inouye to keep UA out of the Inter Island market, he was able to prove that if UA entered that market it would kill an already ailing AQ causing a ripple effect in Hawaii's economy that could cause massive unemployment & the demand for social services like food stamps would far outweigh what Hawaii had budgeted & would eventually cause a ripple effect in Hawaii that would be felt across the state, but the lions share of the impact would have been on Oahu. UA would not or could not guarantee there would be enough jobs for locals after people with UA experience & seniority transferred to Hawaii. In addition UA wanted to run it's Inter Island flights from the Eva concourse for easy passenger connections & the airport was not wanting that.

I'm not sure by any means, but at 3,303nm I think HNL-GUM is outside the range of the 321neo, however the XLR may be able to do that. But as said above, HA hasn't ordered any XLR's. All that being said, I don't see HA going up against UA in the GUM market, certainly not with a 330 (or future 789) mainly due to the aforementioned lock UA has on govt. & military contracts. What traffic would HA get? Just the leisure market, and I think it would turn into a bloodbath fighting over that with UA. They've got better fish to fry, regardless of any gentleman's agreement, such as shown on that great route map RWA380 linked...Samoa, Tonga, Cook Islands, maybe a couple others...places UA nor anybody else would even think of flying to. The 321 would be the right amount of capacity for such routes on a less-than-daily basis. As already stated, those 789's are intended for new markets beyond the reach of the 330, and the last few 789's delivered will probably replace an equal number of older 330's which HA decides to retire...remember the 789 deliveries are stretched out over several years.

As far as the government contracts, remember those are rebid every year, so there is a chance for HA to grab GUM contracts from UA should HA decide to start flying to GUM. For fiscal year 2020, for example, SAN-HNL is Southwest. Those only apply to government personnel (including military when flying on scheduled flights); contractors traveling on government business would still fly according to their company policies.