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jplatts
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:14 pm

dfw88 wrote:
Anyone see this from SY? Looks like new service (presumably seasonal and less than daily) to SKB from DFW. Will American respond with a nonstop or just ignore it and keep funneling pax through MIA?


AA will likely eventually respond with a nonstop to SKB from DFW if SY doesn't drop DFW-SKB nonstop service since AA has responded to adds made by WN out of DAL and NK out of DFW.

MDW will be the only remaining WN destination served nonstop from DAL that doesn't have nonstop service out of DFW on AA once AA starts DFW-BUR nonstop service on April 2nd.

All of the destinations that have nonstop service out of DFW or DAL on DL, UA, AS, F9, and NK already have nonstop service out of DFW on AA on at least a seasonal basis, and most of these destinations also have year-round daily nonstop service out of DFW on AA.
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:44 pm

jplatts wrote:
AA will likely eventually respond with a nonstop to SKB from DFW if SY doesn't drop DFW-SKB nonstop service since AA has responded to adds made by WN out of DAL and NK out of DFW.

MDW will be the only remaining WN destination served nonstop from DAL that doesn't have nonstop service out of DFW on AA once AA starts DFW-BUR nonstop service on April 2nd.

All of the destinations that have nonstop service out of DFW or DAL on DL, UA, AS, F9, and NK already have nonstop service out of DFW on AA on at least a seasonal basis, and most of these destinations also have year-round daily nonstop service out of DFW on AA.


I was surprised that AA (through their regional carriers) operates seven flights to HOU considering the amount of service they offer to IAH (9x/daily).
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW, PHL, MIA, LAX; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), B739 (DL), B712 (DL), B752 (AA), B763 (AA), B77W (AA), B789 (AA)
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legend500
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:04 am

Just a bit of re-capping considering the discussion inhere's excellent but all over.

DFW Re-hab:

Airport Board is ready to sell bonds, but the problem is still C. It's in fairly dire need of replacement (for Dallas - where all buildings over 25 are viewed with suspicion), and as a few noted, the best way to do that is to build F, let F and E handle the C traffic while it's rebuilt, and viola. The problem is that means you're actually doing a project more than double the original size. Some of the parties are ok with that because it puts DFW into even better shape in the future, some notice it's too costly.

Right now, there's thinking about building F as a concourse to a future CTA at D, and building C as a CTA. As others noted, the problem is that this would overload the D-18 Checkpoint which is by volume the smallest one in D. Also, AA is worried about connection times to a long F, so anything done there means either hooking up with the existing F Skylink stops or rebuilding Skylink.

DARTTEXRailATrainTRE:

I miss Boston. Anyways, everybody knows the location of the rail stations and bus shuttles is sub-optimal. The situation is waiting for a resolution to the Terminal C problem, as any central rebuild will include provision for direct service from TEXRail Red Line, DART Orange and Cotton Belt lines, and a better connection to TRE. This is one of the "things" currently in the hopper.

A side note - DART is sniffing around for a way to do direct service to DAL. It may delay a DFW relocation or D2.

TCR:

The choo-choo that Herb already killed just needs to survive the legislative session, and it should be go. Environmental review is done in Fall of 2019, and Japan's JBIC has provided the last shot of funding necessary. If Japan Central makes Texas Central work, then watch for AA and SWA to go ballistic, because it's also a testbed for the next target for everyone - JR Group, Amtrak, ODOT and TXDOT's I-35/I-44/MX-85 line. It'll never get built, but even a portion of it would seriously threaten intrastate flying for everyone.

DAL:

The phonebooth which is stuffed with one fat guy and two twinks, one of whom was recently a virgin, is at the breaking point for regular ops and a madhouse for IRROPS. I would expect to see a trade at some point - federal funding for an expanded version of the DFW rebuild, and flexibility on just what a "gate" is at DAL (get ready for Gate 15P everyone).

BOS:

As a frequent commuter on the route, I don't think DL wants anything to do with the 3-way between B6, AA and SWA on that route.
 
sagechan
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:31 am

legend500 wrote:


TCR:

The choo-choo that Herb already killed just needs to survive the legislative session, and it should be go. Environmental review is done in Fall of 2019, and Japan's JBIC has provided the last shot of funding necessary. If Japan Central makes Texas Central work, then watch for AA and SWA to go ballistic, because it's also a testbed for the next target for everyone - JR Group, Amtrak, ODOT and TXDOT's I-35/I-44/MX-85 line. It'll never get built, but even a portion of it would seriously threaten intrastate flying for everyone.


If TCR actually does get built, you'll just see downguages and maybe some frequency reductions form AA to Houston (and AUS/SAT if those extensions were to be built) a viable HSR connection should kill most O&D between the two cities so then AA and WN just need to cater to connections. See the DCA-LGA shuttles as Amtrak make something almost resembling HSR in the NEC. Neither would probably have that much trouble adapting.
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EvanWSFO
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:59 am

dfw88 wrote:
Anyone see this from SY? Looks like new service (presumably seasonal and less than daily) to SKB from DFW. Will American respond with a nonstop or just ignore it and keep funneling pax through MIA?

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1412527#p20989115


No way would AA fly this from DFW. MIA will always be the hub for international points south/southeast, particularly the smaller ones.
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TSS
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:47 am

sagechan wrote:
legend500 wrote:
TCR:

The choo-choo that Herb already killed just needs to survive the legislative session, and it should be go. Environmental review is done in Fall of 2019, and Japan's JBIC has provided the last shot of funding necessary. If Japan Central makes Texas Central work, then watch for AA and SWA to go ballistic, because it's also a testbed for the next target for everyone - JR Group, Amtrak, ODOT and TXDOT's I-35/I-44/MX-85 line. It'll never get built, but even a portion of it would seriously threaten intrastate flying for everyone.


If TCR actually does get built, you'll just see downguages and maybe some frequency reductions form AA to Houston (and AUS/SAT if those extensions were to be built) a viable HSR connection should kill most O&D between the two cities so then AA and WN just need to cater to connections. See the DCA-LGA shuttles as Amtrak make something almost resembling HSR in the NEC. Neither would probably have that much trouble adapting.

Have any realistic estimates of travel time and ticket cost been published for TCR? If so, how do they compare to current flight time and cost?
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sagechan
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:14 pm

TSS wrote:
sagechan wrote:
legend500 wrote:
TCR:

The choo-choo that Herb already killed just needs to survive the legislative session, and it should be go. Environmental review is done in Fall of 2019, and Japan's JBIC has provided the last shot of funding necessary. If Japan Central makes Texas Central work, then watch for AA and SWA to go ballistic, because it's also a testbed for the next target for everyone - JR Group, Amtrak, ODOT and TXDOT's I-35/I-44/MX-85 line. It'll never get built, but even a portion of it would seriously threaten intrastate flying for everyone.


If TCR actually does get built, you'll just see downguages and maybe some frequency reductions form AA to Houston (and AUS/SAT if those extensions were to be built) a viable HSR connection should kill most O&D between the two cities so then AA and WN just need to cater to connections. See the DCA-LGA shuttles as Amtrak make something almost resembling HSR in the NEC. Neither would probably have that much trouble adapting.

Have any realistic estimates of travel time and ticket cost been published for TCR? If so, how do they compare to current flight time and cost?


For time station to station has been listed at 90 min with 1 intermediate stop. That seems about right for distance and the N700 shinkansen. Plus additional time from the stations on the outskirts of the cities to destination. So depending on where you live, probably similar or slightly shorter "last mile" time to airports plus less time than airports from check in to boarding.

TCR claims pricing will be competitive or cheaper than flights, but I'm not sure if it's been independently verified. Capital costs are high operational cost should be good vs planes. TCR says they are purchasing minimal width right of way, so not sure there will be much real estate offsets, so it will have to run on its own merits.
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jplatts
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:49 pm

legend500 wrote:
BOS:

As a frequent commuter on the route, I don't think DL wants anything to do with the 3-way between B6, AA and SWA on that route.


In addition to B6 and AA serving BOS nonstop from DFW and in addition to WN serving BOS nonstop from DAL, NK also serves BOS nonstop from DFW on a seasonal basis.

DL has recently announced BOS-ORD nonstop service starting in Fall 2019, and DL will be competing against AA, UA, WN, B6, and NK on the BOS-CHI route when DL starts BOS-ORD nonstop service. I think that DL might be willing to bring back BOS-DFW nonstop service if there is enough demand to support additional DFW-BOS nonstop service, even with AA, B6, WN, and NK already serving Dallas nonstop from BOS, since DL will be competing against all 4 of these carriers on BOS-CHI starting this fall.
 
TSS
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:44 pm

sagechan wrote:
If TCR actually does get built, you'll just see downguages and maybe some frequency reductions form AA to Houston (and AUS/SAT if those extensions were to be built) a viable HSR connection should kill most O&D between the two cities so then AA and WN just need to cater to connections. See the DCA-LGA shuttles as Amtrak make something almost resembling HSR in the NEC. Neither would probably have that much trouble adapting.


TSS wrote:
Have any realistic estimates of travel time and ticket cost been published for TCR? If so, how do they compare to current flight time and cost?


sagechan wrote:
For time station to station has been listed at 90 min with 1 intermediate stop. That seems about right for distance and the N700 shinkansen. Plus additional time from the stations on the outskirts of the cities to destination. So depending on where you live, probably similar or slightly shorter "last mile" time to airports plus less time than airports from check in to boarding.

TCR claims pricing will be competitive or cheaper than flights, but I'm not sure if it's been independently verified. Capital costs are high operational cost should be good vs planes. TCR says they are purchasing minimal width right of way, so not sure there will be much real estate offsets, so it will have to run on its own merits.


Gotcha. So with everything else being close to even the main selling point of TCR is less hassle boarding, assuming the TSA doesn't feel the need to set up airport-style security checkpoints for high speed rail as well. Logic says they shouldn't but since when has the TSA followed a logical path?

Where TCR might lose in the comparison with air travel is in secondary infrastructure, specifically a variety of restaurants and rental car companies right at the station versus airports. Having a wide choice of reasonably good food at no-higher-than-airport-prices available on the train mitigates the need for restaurants at the station, but everything in Texas is spread out and even if you're just flying/riding to Houston or Dallas/Fort Worth for business for the day, at least half the time you're gonna need to get a rental car to get to your appointment(s) way out in the suburbs.
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TSS
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:38 am

legend500 wrote:
DFW Re-hab:

Airport Board is ready to sell bonds, but the problem is still C. It's in fairly dire need of replacement (for Dallas - where all buildings over 25 are viewed with suspicion), and as a few noted, the best way to do that is to build F, let F and E handle the C traffic while it's rebuilt, and viola. The problem is that means you're actually doing a project more than double the original size. Some of the parties are ok with that because it puts DFW into even better shape in the future, some notice it's too costly.


I see we're on the same page more or less. In another thread I said "If I recall correctly, there was ongoing debate as to whether the south end of Terminal C would be razed and rebuilt to match the rest of the terminal, and if so, when, or if the entire terminal should be redone and to what extent, e.g. cosmetic, systems, and minor layout upgrades a la Terminal A or tear the whole thing down and build a new Terminal C from scratch incorporating lessons learned from Terminal D".

It all comes down to how much money they want to spend, and what sort of return they'll get once the money has been spent. Personally, I'd have redone Terminal C before Terminal A because A was in much better shape than C even before the remodel, but the DFW Board of Directors has yet to consult me on such decisions.

legend500 wrote:
Right now, there's thinking about building F as a concourse to a future CTA at D, and building C as a CTA. As others noted, the problem is that this would overload the D-18 Checkpoint which is by volume the smallest one in D. Also, AA is worried about connection times to a long F, so anything done there means either hooking up with the existing F Skylink stops or rebuilding Skylink.


Interesting. I'd say build out F as it's own terminal similar to D but perhaps a bit less extravagant. I can see the logic of having D and eventually C as CTAs, but that would leave more than 2/3rds of the parking spaces nowhere near the check-in areas. Other airports deal with remote parking reasonably well, but none, as far as I know, have six separate parking areas to deal with.
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legend500
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:43 pm

jplatts wrote:
In addition to B6 and AA serving BOS nonstop from DFW and in addition to WN serving BOS nonstop from DAL, NK also serves BOS nonstop from DFW on a seasonal basis.

DL has recently announced BOS-ORD nonstop service starting in Fall 2019, and DL will be competing against AA, UA, WN, B6, and NK on the BOS-CHI route when DL starts BOS-ORD nonstop service. I think that DL might be willing to bring back BOS-DFW nonstop service if there is enough demand to support additional DFW-BOS nonstop service, even with AA, B6, WN, and NK already serving Dallas nonstop from BOS, since DL will be competing against all 4 of these carriers on BOS-CHI starting this fall.


Thanks! I could have sworn I'd seen DFW on the NK boards over at B37/38, but couldn't find it in the current schedule.

If I was DL and really wanted to have fun, I'd open BOS-DAL. Operationally at DAL it's a no-go, but that would be hilarious. Otherwise it'd be an interesting move. It perhaps does make sense for DL to serve DFW still, mainly because there's good FF feed on both sides, and the Dallas-BOS route is still a guaranteed growth route.

TSS wrote:
Interesting. I'd say build out F as it's own terminal similar to D but perhaps a bit less extravagant. I can see the logic of having D and eventually C as CTAs, but that would leave more than 2/3rds of the parking spaces nowhere near the check-in areas. Other airports deal with remote parking reasonably well, but none, as far as I know, have six separate parking areas to deal with.


It's a design meant to streamline transfer traffic, and does kinda screw over the amazing convenience that local pax have had for decades. Centralizing security checkpoints is always an iffy proposition - I find that DFW's design of 3 per terminal is the best for O&D traffic that I've experienced.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:58 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
dfw88 wrote:
Anyone see this from SY? Looks like new service (presumably seasonal and less than daily) to SKB from DFW. Will American respond with a nonstop or just ignore it and keep funneling pax through MIA?

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1412527#p20989115


No way would AA fly this from DFW. MIA will always be the hub for international points south/southeast, particularly the smaller ones.


This is not correct. While, MIA is AA’s larger hub to points south/southeast, AA flies to lots of those destinations from DFW.

They fly to NAS, SDQ, SJU and Aruba in the Caribbean.

BOG, LIM, SCL, GRU, EZE in South America. Several destinations in Central America including two seasonal destinations that were just added.

AA has dropped CCS, MBJ, UIO, GIG and PTY from DFW but you can’t say no way would AA ever fly to a given Latin or Caribbean destination from DFW.
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:08 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
dfw88 wrote:
Anyone see this from SY? Looks like new service (presumably seasonal and less than daily) to SKB from DFW. Will American respond with a nonstop or just ignore it and keep funneling pax through MIA?

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1412527#p20989115


No way would AA fly this from DFW. MIA will always be the hub for international points south/southeast, particularly the smaller ones.


This is not correct. While, MIA is AA’s larger hub to points south/southeast, AA flies to lots of those destinations from DFW.

They fly to NAS, SDQ, SJU and Aruba in the Caribbean.

BOG, LIM, SCL, GRU, EZE in South America. Several destinations in Central America including two seasonal destinations that were just added.

AA has dropped CCS, MBJ, UIO, GIG and PTY from DFW but you can’t say no way would AA ever fly to a given Latin or Caribbean destination from DFW.


If it were SXM, STT, STX, or even BGI I'd say it's possible. SKB just really doesn't seem like it could sustain a flight from DFW. It's been my home airport for 20+ years and have a number of friends who work for AA. I just don't see n/s to smaller Caribbean and Latin America cities. MIA does it much better.
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BoeingGuy
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:53 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:

No way would AA fly this from DFW. MIA will always be the hub for international points south/southeast, particularly the smaller ones.


This is not correct. While, MIA is AA’s larger hub to points south/southeast, AA flies to lots of those destinations from DFW.

They fly to NAS, SDQ, SJU and Aruba in the Caribbean.

BOG, LIM, SCL, GRU, EZE in South America. Several destinations in Central America including two seasonal destinations that were just added.

AA has dropped CCS, MBJ, UIO, GIG and PTY from DFW but you can’t say no way would AA ever fly to a given Latin or Caribbean destination from DFW.


If it were SXM, STT, STX, or even BGI I'd say it's possible. SKB just really doesn't seem like it could sustain a flight from DFW. It's been my home airport for 20+ years and have a number of friends who work for AA. I just don't see n/s to smaller Caribbean and Latin America cities. MIA does it much better.


Yeah, you're right about that. SKB is a fairly small destination. I'm not even that familiar with it.

The larger destinations like BOG and SCL seem to be able to sustain DFW service. AA has tried and discontinued PTY, UIO, and GIG. I flew UIO-DFW a few years ago and it was completely full.

I flew BOG-DFW last week and it was also completely full.

I personally prefer international arrivals at DFW. It's my favorite large US airport to clear customs in. It was a breeze last week and always has been. Granted it's been 12 years since I arrived (from LPB) into MIA, but it was as nightmare. Took like two hours to get out of Immigration and Customs in MIA due to long lines. Not sure if it's improved now. LAX can be similar.

From getting off the airplane to clearing security to re-enter the terminal at DFW was under 40 minutes last week. Doesn't get any better than that.
 
TSS
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:32 pm

legend500 wrote:
TSS wrote:
Interesting. I'd say build out F as it's own terminal similar to D but perhaps a bit less extravagant. I can see the logic of having D and eventually C as CTAs, but that would leave more than 2/3rds of the parking spaces nowhere near the check-in areas. Other airports deal with remote parking reasonably well, but none, as far as I know, have six separate parking areas to deal with.


It's a design meant to streamline transfer traffic, and does kinda screw over the amazing convenience that local pax have had for decades. Centralizing security checkpoints is always an iffy proposition - I find that DFW's design of 3 per terminal is the best for O&D traffic that I've experienced.


Agreed on the O&D bit, plus I think the powers that be at DFW need to go in person to a few other major airports and see how much real-world time it takes to get from gate to gate in separate terminals and then compare that time to DFW's before identifying it as a problem. I connected both ways at DFW on one trip for sure and possibly on two before Skylink opened, and yes, those were some very long hikes from gate to gate while dragging luggage, even with moving sidewalks. But with Skylink in operation, DFW is delightfully quick and easy to navigate for transfers as it is right now. Larger, more numerous, and perhaps differently-colored signs indicating the locations of Skylink stations within the individual terminals I can see the sense of, maybe even along with someone in each station to explain how to use it to the uninitiated (something I find myself doing every second or third time I'm there), but sacrificing proven O&D convenience to solve imagined transfer inconvenience that does not exist in reality is nuts.
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UpNAWAy
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:57 pm

It's less about the actual time for passengers to connect and more about how inefficient it is for AA to operate.
 
TSS
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:48 am

UpNAWAy wrote:
It's less about the actual time for passengers to connect and more about how inefficient it is for AA to operate.

I'm guessing you mean duplicate check-in, baggage claim, etc. in each terminal versus having a whole bunch of all of them in a central location?
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747superliner
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:51 am

For Terminal D, there was a PDF the airport posted on its business page last year which mentioned a new, four-gate Terminal D stinger, which will accomodate upto four narrow body aircraft or two wide body aircraft simultaneously. Also recall someone saying this is the reason the hardstands on the south side of D have now been moved to the west side of that parking lot south of D.
 
TSS
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:49 am

747superliner wrote:
For Terminal D, there was a PDF the airport posted on its business page last year which mentioned a new, four-gate Terminal D stinger, which will accomodate upto four narrow body aircraft or two wide body aircraft simultaneously. Also recall someone saying this is the reason the hardstands on the south side of D have now been moved to the west side of that parking lot south of D.


As shown here, along with other proposals-

https://imgur.com/j5dG9LI
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UpNAWAy
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:29 pm

TSS wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
It's less about the actual time for passengers to connect and more about how inefficient it is for AA to operate.

I'm guessing you mean duplicate check-in, baggage claim, etc. in each terminal versus having a whole bunch of all of them in a central location?



Its more than just the front of the house, everything is increased. More rampers, more maintenance , more equipment more supervisors and managers and support staff.
 
747superliner
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:24 pm

I'm wondering why the non-hub airlines weren't consolidated at B (several carriers were actually in B after D opened) and why Eagle wasn't consolidated in Terminal E. Now that the E-satellite is going to be an Eagle terminal, it would fit perfectly - a majority of AA's ops would be all on one side of the terminal layout, plus all of Terminal E and the E-satellite would house Eagle. I'm guessing this was given some thought but logistics did not quite work out.
 
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william
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:07 pm

747superliner wrote:
I'm wondering why the non-hub airlines weren't consolidated at B (several carriers were actually in B after D opened) and why Eagle wasn't consolidated in Terminal E. Now that the E-satellite is going to be an Eagle terminal, it would fit perfectly - a majority of AA's ops would be all on one side of the terminal layout, plus all of Terminal E and the E-satellite would house Eagle. I'm guessing this was given some thought but logistics did not quite work out.


East side Ops are heavier than on the westside of the airport. Having most of AE ops on the east side too would add to the congestion I would think.
 
747superliner
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:00 pm

william wrote:
747superliner wrote:
I'm wondering why the non-hub airlines weren't consolidated at B (several carriers were actually in B after D opened) and why Eagle wasn't consolidated in Terminal E. Now that the E-satellite is going to be an Eagle terminal, it would fit perfectly - a majority of AA's ops would be all on one side of the terminal layout, plus all of Terminal E and the E-satellite would house Eagle. I'm guessing this was given some thought but logistics did not quite work out.


East side Ops are heavier than on the westside of the airport. Having most of AE ops on the east side too would add to the congestion I would think.


I see your point but the airport handled it well when DL/DL Connection had a hub at E with loads of daily departures. I doubt Eagle would add that much more to the congestion on the east side. Just a thought though, they've already committed to most Eagle ops staying in B with the 10-gate stinger.

I am looking forward to the re-opening of the E satellite though, it is a great terminal spotting location.
Last edited by 747superliner on Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
DFWandOMA
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Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:41 am

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:01 pm

Frontier is beginning flights to MCO and LAS starting May 1.
 
Brandon757
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:16 pm

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:31 pm

DFWandOMA wrote:
Frontier is beginning flights to MCO and LAS starting May 1.

Awesome. I love more options on the DFW/DAL - LAS route.
 
deltaffindfw
Posts: 1492
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 7:42 am

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:53 pm

747superliner wrote:
I'm wondering why the non-hub airlines weren't consolidated at B (several carriers were actually in B after D opened) and why Eagle wasn't consolidated in Terminal E. Now that the E-satellite is going to be an Eagle terminal, it would fit perfectly - a majority of AA's ops would be all on one side of the terminal layout, plus all of Terminal E and the E-satellite would house Eagle. I'm guessing this was given some thought but logistics did not quite work out.


Most likely because A, B and C (and D when it was built) were all connected by a walkway bridge. Terminal E is not connected to any other terminal. So, it made sense for AA to keep all their ops where the terminals were connected in case something happened with Skylink.
 
TSS
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Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:52 pm

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:43 am

A better image of all the expansion possibilities for DFW, from 2014-

Image

Extensions and stingers and a whole new terminal, oh my!
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
ctrabs0114
Posts: 926
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:09 am

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:40 pm

So, F9 has apparently loaded the seasonal schedule for DFW-LAS. I don't get why they're running that route considering AA and NK already have relatively strong year-round service.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW, PHL, MIA, LAX; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), B739 (DL), B712 (DL), B752 (AA), B763 (AA), B77W (AA), B789 (AA)
Next: TBA
 
milemaster
Posts: 1069
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 10:19 am

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:55 pm

ctrabs0114 wrote:
So, F9 has apparently loaded the seasonal schedule for DFW-LAS. I don't get why they're running that route considering AA and NK already have relatively strong year-round service.


Don't forget Southwest and Sun Country.
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:42 am

milemaster wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:
So, F9 has apparently loaded the seasonal schedule for DFW-LAS. I don't get why they're running that route considering AA and NK already have relatively strong year-round service.


Don't forget Southwest and Sun Country.


I forgot about SY, and I didn't include WN because I was specifically referring to DFW, not factoring in WN's DAL-DEN service. That said, F9 sure picks some odd markets to add given the competition. We saw that at PIT when F9 ran flights to MCO, ORD and ATL (as best as I can recall).
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW, PHL, MIA, LAX; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), B739 (DL), B712 (DL), B752 (AA), B763 (AA), B77W (AA), B789 (AA)
Next: TBA
 
jplatts
Topic Author
Posts: 2769
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:19 pm

While NK announced service to RDU today, I am surprised that NK didn't add DFW-RDU nonstop service with DFW being one of the largest NK stations. There is also less competition on DFW-RDU than on some of the other nonstop routes out of RDU since AA is currently the only airline serving RDU nonstop from DFW, even though WN does have 1 daily nonstop to RDU from DAL.

Even though NK hasn't yet announced plans to serve CMH, IND, JAX, and RDU nonstop from DFW, I think that NK is likely to add DFW-CMH, DFW-IND, DFW-JAX, and DFW-RDU nonstop service since (a) DFW is one of the largest NK stations and (b) AA and WN are currently the only airlines serving CMH, IND, JAX, and RDU nonstop from the DFW Metroplex.
 
deltaffindfw
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:22 am

As we taxiied in today, I noticed that 17C is complete at the north end. The new runway is asphalt, not concrete like all the others. Any reason why? I thought concrete was longer lasting.
 
FriscoHeavy
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:48 am

deltaffindfw wrote:
As we taxiied in today, I noticed that 17C is complete at the north end. The new runway is asphalt, not concrete like all the others. Any reason why? I thought concrete was longer lasting.


If it's at the far North end (say the first 1,000 ft or so), it will likely have very little stress. Planes touching down will land beyond that point and taking off from the opposite end, planes will be airborne by then. All that to say, it was probably a lot cheaper to do asphalt since it 'won't get much work' being outside the touchdown zone.
Whatever
 
deltaffindfw
Posts: 1492
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 7:42 am

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:17 am

It was all the way to and past taxiway Y and Z. So,I think it's the whole runway.
 
tismfu
Posts: 77
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:26 am

I recall a rumor posted a while back that Terminal C was not renovated due to asbestos. Is there any validity to that?
 
jplatts
Topic Author
Posts: 2769
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:03 am

There is an article titled "Alaska's Love Field expansion throws wrench into city's plan to solve Southwest-Delta lawsuit" that was published in the Dallas Business Journal today, and that article can be found at https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2019/01/19/alaska-airlines-dallas-love-field-southwest-delta.html. That article mentioned that DL wants to add 8 additional flights out of DAL if there is enough room at DAL to do so.

DL would likely need to use more than gate 15 at DAL in order to accommodate the 8 extra flights that it wants to add at DAL, and gates 17, 18, 19, and 20 at DAL could be reconfigured to accommodate both DL and WN.
 
itchief
Posts: 244
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:01 am

deltaffindfw wrote:
It was all the way to and past taxiway Y and Z. So,I think it's the whole runway.


Here is the answer to your question about runway 17C at DFW,

https://www.eulesstx.gov/news/RunwayRehabilitation.htm
 
 
DFW17L
Posts: 164
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:21 am

dfdubflyer wrote:

Two years in a row - awesome.

Extra points to those that cross-post to the Chicago thread, Atlanta, etc.
 
jplatts
Topic Author
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:57 am

DAL could be transformed from an airport that is served primarily by WN to a multi-carrier airport that is served by AA, DL, UA, AS, and WN if (a) the 5-party agreement and WARA are both expanded to allow expansion of DAL beyond 20 gates and/or (b) WN moves some of its DAL operations over to DFW or other airports in the Metroplex in 2025.

Here are nonstop routes that could be added out of DAL on AA, DL, UA, and AS if DAL is transformed to a multi-carrier airport:
AS: DAL-LAX, DAL-PDX, DAL-SAN, DAL-SFO, DAL-SJC, DAL-SEA
DL: DAL-ATL, DAL-CVG, DAL-DTW, DAL-MSP, DAL-LGA, DAL-LAX, DAL-SLC, DAL-SEA
AA: DAL-CLT, DAL-ORD, DAL-LAX, DAL-MIA, DAL-LGA, DAL-PHL, DAL-PHX, DAL-DCA
UA: DAL-ORD, DAL-DEN, DAL-IAH, DAL-SFO, DAL-EWR, DAL-IAD
 
DFW17L
Posts: 164
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:05 am

Jplatts -

Wouldn’t AA be cannibalizing long haul flights out of dfw, by offering routes to other AA hubs from DAL? Or are there overseas destinations from other AA hubs that do not currently exist out of dfw?
 
jplatts
Topic Author
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:20 am

DFW17L wrote:
Jplatts -

Wouldn’t AA be cannibalizing long haul flights out of dfw, by offering routes to other AA hubs from DAL? Or are there overseas destinations from other AA hubs that do not currently exist out of dfw?


AA actually serves more than just its hub airports in 4 of the 9 markets where it has a hub since:
  • In the Baltimore/Washington region, AA also serves BWI and IAD in addition to its DCA hub.
  • In Greater Los Angeles, AA also serves BUR, LGB, ONT, and SNA in addition to its LAX hub.
  • In the NYC market, AA also serves ISP, EWR, SWF, and HPN in addition to its LGA and JFK hubs.
  • In Greater Miami, AA also serves FLL and PBI in addition to its MIA hub.

AA was originally planning on resuming service out of DAL after the repeal of the Wright Amendment, but those plans changed when AA was required to divest its 2 gates at DAL to another carrier by the U.S. Department of Justice in order to get the AA-US merger approved. In addition, AA will be allowed to regain access to the 2 gates in use by AS on April 26, 2024, and AA is considering possibly adding service out of DAL after April 26, 2024 if it can regain access to the 2 gates currently in use by AS at DAL.

There was even an article in the Dallas Morning News last year that stated that AA objected to the City of Dallas's proposal to resolve the DL-WN gate controversy at DAL because "American argu[es that] the city’s proposal would illegally prohibit the Fort Worth-based carrier from serving the airport in the future", and that article can be found at https://www.dallasnews.com/business/love-field/2018/05/25/southwest-delta-american-object-dallas-love-field-gate-plan.

I do not expect AA to ever serve any non-AA hubs nonstop from DAL. AA also will not operate any nonstop international flights out of DAL since (a) AA had already agreed that DFW will be the only airport in the DFW Metroplex that will have nonstop passenger international service and (b) the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 prohibits nonstop passenger international service out of DAL.

AA will not be cannibalizing long haul flights out of DFW by offering nonstop service to other AA hubs out of DAL since AA will likely only be serving its hubs nonstop from DAL if it re-enters DAL. There would also be significant demand for AA service out of DFW, including to AA's other hubs, if AA re-enters DAL since AA already carries over 48 domestic million passengers out of DFW per year.
 
B1168
Posts: 507
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:43 am

jplatts wrote:
DFW17L wrote:
Jplatts -

Wouldn’t AA be cannibalizing long haul flights out of dfw, by offering routes to other AA hubs from DAL? Or are there overseas destinations from other AA hubs that do not currently exist out of dfw?


AA actually serves more than just its hub airports in 4 of the 9 markets where it has a hub since:
  • In the Baltimore/Washington region, AA also serves BWI and IAD in addition to its DCA hub.
  • In Greater Los Angeles, AA also serves BUR, LGB, ONT, and SNA in addition to its LAX hub.
  • In the NYC market, AA also serves ISP, EWR, SWF, and HPN in addition to its LGA and JFK hubs.
  • In Greater Miami, AA also serves FLL and PBI in addition to its MIA hub.

AA was originally planning on resuming service out of DAL after the repeal of the Wright Amendment, but those plans changed when AA was required to divest its 2 gates at DAL to another carrier by the U.S. Department of Justice in order to get the AA-US merger approved. In addition, AA will be allowed to regain access to the 2 gates in use by AS on April 26, 2024, and AA is considering possibly adding service out of DAL after April 26, 2024 if it can regain access to the 2 gates currently in use by AS at DAL.

There was even an article in the Dallas Morning News last year that stated that AA objected to the City of Dallas's proposal to resolve the DL-WN gate controversy at DAL because "American argu[es that] the city’s proposal would illegally prohibit the Fort Worth-based carrier from serving the airport in the future", and that article can be found at https://www.dallasnews.com/business/love-field/2018/05/25/southwest-delta-american-object-dallas-love-field-gate-plan.

I do not expect AA to ever serve any non-AA hubs nonstop from DAL. AA also will not operate any nonstop international flights out of DAL since (a) AA had already agreed that DFW will be the only airport in the DFW Metroplex that will have nonstop passenger international service and (b) the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 prohibits nonstop passenger international service out of DAL.

AA will not be cannibalizing long haul flights out of DFW by offering nonstop service to other AA hubs out of DAL since AA will likely only be serving its hubs nonstop from DAL if it re-enters DAL. There would also be significant demand for AA service out of DFW, including to AA's other hubs, if AA re-enters DAL since AA already carries over 48 domestic million passengers out of DFW per year.


First, appreciation on all those info.
I would rather call DAL a preliminary reliever for slots in DFW, though they never lack one in case of need. In summary, they are mostly as an alternative to domestic destinations for O&D passengers.
After all, a new competitor is worth appreciating, and we can see where Moxy goes, a third airport, or DAL.
 
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chepos
Posts: 6786
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:05 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
dfw88 wrote:
Anyone see this from SY? Looks like new service (presumably seasonal and less than daily) to SKB from DFW. Will American respond with a nonstop or just ignore it and keep funneling pax through MIA?

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1412527#p20989115


No way would AA fly this from DFW. MIA will always be the hub for international points south/southeast, particularly the smaller ones.


This is not correct. While, MIA is AA’s larger hub to points south/southeast, AA flies to lots of those destinations from DFW.

They fly to NAS, SDQ, SJU and Aruba in the Caribbean.

BOG, LIM, SCL, GRU, EZE in South America. Several destinations in Central America including two seasonal destinations that were just added.

AA has dropped CCS, MBJ, UIO, GIG and PTY from DFW but you can’t say no way would AA ever fly to a given Latin or Caribbean destination from DFW.


Small correction, AA still very much still flies to MBJ from DFW, you need to add PUJ to the list. SDQ has not started yet.
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
Qantas59
Posts: 153
Joined: Sat May 04, 2013 4:51 pm

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:39 am

Regarding DAL east concourse usage in early to mid 2000s, can anyone recall the gate numbers that were used by AA, CO, etc.?
At one point weren't there some additional gates opened further down the former BN concourse? Were there perhaps 5 in total?
Thanks for any replies.
[photoid][photoid][/photoid][/photoid]/Users/jaytanguay/Desktop/Screen Shot 2016-10-27 at 9.30.09 AM.png
 
bob75013
Posts: 882
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:58 am

Qantas59 wrote:
Regarding DAL east concourse usage in early to mid 2000s, can anyone recall the gate numbers that were used by AA, CO, etc.?
At one point weren't there some additional gates opened further down the former BN concourse? Were there perhaps 5 in total?
Thanks for any replies.


Service was out of terminal 1. Continental had gates 29 and 30. Delta had 31 Alegiant 32. When Delta and Alegiant dropped out, AA took over those two gates.

Other than Southwest's gates and these 4 there were no others.

Here's your blast from the past:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82kg6Kjmtyo
 
Qantas59
Posts: 153
Joined: Sat May 04, 2013 4:51 pm

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:00 am

Hey bob75013,
Thanks for the reply and video.
Cheers
[photoid][photoid][/photoid][/photoid]/Users/jaytanguay/Desktop/Screen Shot 2016-10-27 at 9.30.09 AM.png
 
TSS
Posts: 3305
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:48 am

tismfu wrote:
I recall a rumor posted a while back that Terminal C was not renovated due to asbestos. Is there any validity to that?


I'd imagine based on when they were constructed, all 4 original terminals had asbestos in them. Since the other three have apparently had more extensive periodic refreshes than C has, the asbestos may have been removed from any or all of the others before removal procedures were as stringent as they are today. That being said, while asbestos removal is a pain in the butt it is not an impossibility, and is relatively not that big a deal when done as part of a "down-to-the-studs/structure" remodel.

As I stated way upthread, the question with Terminal C is not does it need to have a remodel, but to what extent:

A. ($) Only replace the "temporary" bit at the south end with structure that matches the rest of the terminal, which would bring it up to the standard of A prior to it's remodel;

B. ($$) Do a full gut and rebuild, which would bring C up to the standard of A as it is now;

C. ($$$) Tear the whole thing down to the ground and build a brand-new terminal there similar to D and more-or-less identical to the proposal for F.
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
Brickell305
Posts: 675
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:31 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
dfw88 wrote:
Anyone see this from SY? Looks like new service (presumably seasonal and less than daily) to SKB from DFW. Will American respond with a nonstop or just ignore it and keep funneling pax through MIA?

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1412527#p20989115


No way would AA fly this from DFW. MIA will always be the hub for international points south/southeast, particularly the smaller ones.


This is not correct. While, MIA is AA’s larger hub to points south/southeast, AA flies to lots of those destinations from DFW.

They fly to NAS, SDQ, SJU and Aruba in the Caribbean.

BOG, LIM, SCL, GRU, EZE in South America. Several destinations in Central America including two seasonal destinations that were just added.

AA has dropped CCS, MBJ, UIO, GIG and PTY from DFW but you can’t say no way would AA ever fly to a given Latin or Caribbean destination from DFW.


He's very much correct though. SKB is a TINY destination already extremely well covered from MIA with seasonal flights from CLT and JFK. There would be absolutely no reason to start it from DFW as that would be an extremely long, extremely thin route. The only way it would remotely work is if the St. Kitts government provided a rev guarantee which I doubt they would as that would be a waste.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 675
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:35 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:

No way would AA fly this from DFW. MIA will always be the hub for international points south/southeast, particularly the smaller ones.


This is not correct. While, MIA is AA’s larger hub to points south/southeast, AA flies to lots of those destinations from DFW.

They fly to NAS, SDQ, SJU and Aruba in the Caribbean.

BOG, LIM, SCL, GRU, EZE in South America. Several destinations in Central America including two seasonal destinations that were just added.

AA has dropped CCS, MBJ, UIO, GIG and PTY from DFW but you can’t say no way would AA ever fly to a given Latin or Caribbean destination from DFW.


If it were SXM, STT, STX, or even BGI I'd say it's possible. SKB just really doesn't seem like it could sustain a flight from DFW. It's been my home airport for 20+ years and have a number of friends who work for AA. I just don't see n/s to smaller Caribbean and Latin America cities. MIA does it much better.

DFW-BGI was tried before (three times weekly) w/ rev guarantees and failed. There's just simply not enough demand that far west for it to work and the traffic that is there can connect on the daily CLT-BGI flight now or even one of the 3x daily MIA-BGI flights. Absolutely no reason to start DFW-BGI either. I'd be less shocked by them restarting JFK than restarting from DFW. They still fly to MBJ from DFW for what it's worth.
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