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speedbird2263
Posts: 193
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:07 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:51 pm

A321 NEO update: N2027J, MSN 9054 did its customer acceptance flight today (11/12/2019) with delivery flight expected to follow within the next 2 days. N2017J, MSN 8971 also flew flew today MST to XFW after painting, so two relatively close deliveries are expected in the next couple of days. If I'm not mistaken N2029J (MSN 9121) is up next, followed by N2038J (MSN 9145).
Straight'n Up 'N Fly Right Son
 
dtremit
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:08 am

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:32 pm

tphuang wrote:
I see what he was saying now. Yep, that's the case. According to them, only 1% of people were picking that fare class. I guess they figured that the people that really care about free cancellation and changes and standby are likely to business passengers who care more about speed rather than how many bags they check in. So this downgrade should also lower the fare difference vs Blue and encourage more buy ups for ff. Especially those who probably already carry JetBlue credit card.


Indeed -- I suspect the removal of baggage on nearly all fares has a lot to do with encouraging people to sign up for the credit card.

Worth noting that the Blue Extra fares are still not refundable -- only cancellable for flight credit with 1 year validity.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2489
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:57 pm

tphuang wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
So they just downgraded their higher fare class and left the lowest level on as is?

They now have included free cancellation, Changes, SDC and Standby as part of their highest fare class + early boarding and even more speed in exchange for 1 free checked bags. For most business travellers, this is actually a huge plus. It's kind of telling that Blue Plus is kept around only for Latin America, where free checked bags for VFR crowd is a lot more important.
So basically we have
Blue Basic - their new BE
Blue - no change
Blue Plus - Available only to Latin American markets
Blue Extra - New
I think the last one is made to hope to capture more business crowd.

If you want free checked in luggage, you need their credit card.


Blue Basic earns only a third what the old lowest class ("Blue") used to earn. And since the lowest fare no longer comes with free seat selection, this is a clear product DEVALUATION.
The new version of "Blue" is similar to the old "Blue" but since this now is a second tier I expect airfare to go up across the board for the new level. So, in reality a minor devaluation.
The new Blue Extra is better than the old top 3rd tier and seems to be a clear IMPROVEMENT.

It also looks like you CANNOT use your TrueBlue points to buy a Blue Basic ticket. That's another negative.

To summarize: Business travelers win, everyone else loses.

It is clear for everyone to see that JetBlue wants to be an also-ran. There is no reason whatsoever anymore to pick B6 over AA, DL, or UA if you are looking for the best (lowest) price. Considering their atrocious on-time-record and their shaky operation during IRROPS, I expect lots of fans and people who value reliablity will now flock to DL. In fact, this new fare roster is probably the biggest gift to DL in 2019.
 
RL757PVD
Posts: 3198
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 1999 2:47 am

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:38 pm

This basic approach is a function, byproduct and essentially a requirement of the ULCC invasion of Florida. There are probably very few routes, in any from MCO where they DON'T compete against F9, NK or G4. with FLL/So Fla becoming more competitive in coming years.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
727LOVER
Posts: 8633
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:43 pm

Seems there is increased SRQ-BOS this winter. I know no one else cares....but I do !
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
jetbluefan1
Posts: 3310
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:39 am

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:50 pm

It seems that the fare options will be dependent on routes. I think "Blue Plus" (which is basically Blue but with 1 checked bag) will only be available on certain VFR-heavy markets to Latin America. Blue Basic won't be in all markets (for example I don't see it on any of the Mint transcon markets).

Here is a great comparison for all the new fares: https://www.jetblue.com/flying-with-us/our-fares

And here are the old fares: https://www.jetblue.com/flying-with-us/previous-fares
 
Bluewho
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:58 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:19 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
So they just downgraded their higher fare class and left the lowest level on as is?

They now have included free cancellation, Changes, SDC and Standby as part of their highest fare class + early boarding and even more speed in exchange for 1 free checked bags. For most business travellers, this is actually a huge plus. It's kind of telling that Blue Plus is kept around only for Latin America, where free checked bags for VFR crowd is a lot more important.
So basically we have
Blue Basic - their new BE
Blue - no change
Blue Plus - Available only to Latin American markets
Blue Extra - New
I think the last one is made to hope to capture more business crowd.

If you want free checked in luggage, you need their credit card.


Blue Basic earns only a third what the old lowest class ("Blue") used to earn. And since the lowest fare no longer comes with free seat selection, this is a clear product DEVALUATION.
The new version of "Blue" is similar to the old "Blue" but since this now is a second tier I expect airfare to go up across the board for the new level. So, in reality a minor devaluation.
The new Blue Extra is better than the old top 3rd tier and seems to be a clear IMPROVEMENT.

It also looks like you CANNOT use your TrueBlue points to buy a Blue Basic ticket. That's another negative.

To summarize: Business travelers win, everyone else loses.

It is clear for everyone to see that JetBlue wants to be an also-ran. There is no reason whatsoever anymore to pick B6 over AA, DL, or UA if you are looking for the best (lowest) price. Considering their atrocious on-time-record and their shaky operation during IRROPS, I expect lots of fans and people who value reliablity will now flock to DL. In fact, this new fare roster is probably the biggest gift to DL in 2019.




Ahhhh yes everyone will go to Delta.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5440
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:32 pm

Alright, on other news, the October traffic report is out
http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetb ... wsid=64203
LF at 82.5% down a little bit from last year. capacity up 6.7% YoY and traffic up 6.2%. Average stage length up 4%. Average departure now have 172 vs 162 seat last year. so 6% increase in seat per flight. RASM growth continues to be -0.5 to -3.5%. Just to give context for the RASM challenges.

OTP is 80.7%, so 2nd month in a row of over 80%.

Dieuwer wrote:

It is clear for everyone to see that JetBlue wants to be an also-ran. There is no reason whatsoever anymore to pick B6 over AA, DL, or UA if you are looking for the best (lowest) price. Considering their atrocious on-time-record and their shaky operation during IRROPS, I expect lots of fans and people who value reliablity will now flock to DL. In fact, this new fare roster is probably the biggest gift to DL in 2019.


if you continue to search amongst non-BE fare like me, nothing really changes. Their hard product is the best. And if you are picking amongst BE fares, Blue Basic fare is slightly better than legacy BE. It's kind of crazy B6 has been matching DL BE fares with their regular blue fare. Their OTP while terrible has a lot to do with where they operate from. 2% below average in OTP at BOS/JFK from Jan-Aug this year. Nothing earth shatteringly bad. Reality is, everyone other than WN has a BE option now.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2489
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:52 pm

tphuang wrote:
Alright, on other news, the October traffic report is out
http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetb ... wsid=64203
LF at 82.5% down a little bit from last year. capacity up 6.7% YoY and traffic up 6.2%. Average stage length up 4%. Average departure now have 172 vs 162 seat last year. so 6% increase in seat per flight. RASM growth continues to be -0.5 to -3.5%. Just to give context for the RASM challenges.

OTP is 80.7%, so 2nd month in a row of over 80%.

Dieuwer wrote:

It is clear for everyone to see that JetBlue wants to be an also-ran. There is no reason whatsoever anymore to pick B6 over AA, DL, or UA if you are looking for the best (lowest) price. Considering their atrocious on-time-record and their shaky operation during IRROPS, I expect lots of fans and people who value reliablity will now flock to DL. In fact, this new fare roster is probably the biggest gift to DL in 2019.


Their hard product is the best..


How so? JetBlue also is doing the densification. And some other airlines also have IFE (which I personally don't care about).
The only product that sets B6 apart now is Mint. The back of the bus is the same/similar among airlines.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5440
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:00 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
How so? JetBlue also is doing the densification. And some other airlines also have IFE (which I personally don't care about).
The only product that sets B6 apart now is Mint. The back of the bus is the same/similar among airlines.


Depends on what you are looking for I guess. They still have the most leg room and probably on average the widest seats. Their EMS seats also occupy the most real estate of any domestic airlines. They have new free wifi with ViaSat-2 that will now cover most of their international travel as well as domestic. Their IFE with A321NEO/A320 reconfig phase 2 and probably A220 will be industry leading again. Check the IFE section here.
https://thepointsguy.com/news/jetblue-airbus-a321neo/
check here for the A320 Phase 2 reconfig report
https://crankyflier.com/2019/10/03/flyi ... ip-report/
They are going to have free pantry section on their new A321NEO. How many airlines have that in their domestic flights (aside from UA CRJ550)?

And they recently just added to IFE with full seasons from SHOWTIME amongst other options
http://blueir.investproductions.com/inv ... -145944600
 
tphuang
Posts: 5440
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:15 pm

B6FareOption.png

fyi, here is the details of the fare options if you are card plus member
download/file.php?mode=view&id=305
B6FareOption.png


edit: i give up, don't know how to attach an image.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 761
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:05 pm

what do you guys think of their new basic blue fare option? what exactly are you really giving up besides the ability to cancel or change flights? You can even still bring on a carry on, so why pay for anything but basic blue?
 
dtremit
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:08 am

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:40 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
what do you guys think of their new basic blue fare option? what exactly are you really giving up besides the ability to cancel or change flights? You can even still bring on a carry on, so why pay for anything but basic blue?


I think you are explaining why Basic Economy has been such a success. For many travelers, it isn't a big sacrifice.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 761
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:17 pm

dtremit wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
what do you guys think of their new basic blue fare option? what exactly are you really giving up besides the ability to cancel or change flights? You can even still bring on a carry on, so why pay for anything but basic blue?


I think you are explaining why Basic Economy has been such a success. For many travelers, it isn't a big sacrifice.


Thats my point. How is this going to make jetBlue money?
 
User avatar
VS4ever
Posts: 2578
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:03 am

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:26 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
dtremit wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
what do you guys think of their new basic blue fare option? what exactly are you really giving up besides the ability to cancel or change flights? You can even still bring on a carry on, so why pay for anything but basic blue?


I think you are explaining why Basic Economy has been such a success. For many travelers, it isn't a big sacrifice.


Thats my point. How is this going to make jetBlue money?


The trick to making money in theory is your original blue fare now becomes basic blue, then all the others go up from there, the assumption is folks will buy the more expensive ones and thus make more money for the same seat.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2489
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:01 pm

Since almost every airline has now copied the concept of "Basic Economy" with JetBlue as the last holdout, the advantage relatively to the completion is gone.
You wonder what is next in the race to the bottom....
 
dtremit
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:08 am

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:22 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Since almost every airline has now copied the concept of "Basic Economy" with JetBlue as the last holdout, the advantage relatively to the completion is gone.
You wonder what is next in the race to the bottom....


I think it's just building within the current framework. Low basic economy prices will mean higher regular economy prices over time -- and since business travelers generally won't book basic economy, that's a big boost to the bottom line. The lowest fare is what creates the perception of flying cost.

Ancillary fees will creep up -- not by much, but a little. The $30 bag will become a $40 bag at the airport, with a $10 "discount" if you book in advance. It's a net win for the airline either way, since the discount will convince people to check bags they wouldn't have otherwise.

I don't think pitch will decrease further in the US (too much scrutiny already), and the idea of charging for drinks seems to have conclusively failed here. So I'm not sure what else is left.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5440
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:50 pm

I'm not sure what else they can take away from the basic coach class experience, but I do see greater focus on segmentation. Maybe B6 will improve their service level to EMS and operate that as a Y+/premium economy cabin. You are seeing all the additional effort from legacy airlines in catering to higher yielding customers. I think you will see JetBlue putting greater effort in attracting that crowd going forward. European flight helps for sure. I find it surprising they didn't put like a mini-mint cabin on A220. Great effort in making mosaic members happy. Part of the change in BE is that mosaic members lose their benefits like no change/cancel fees. Don't know if they will add that back. I would think most mosaic members aren't going to fly Blue Basic, but some of them might be forced to due to corporate policy. I'd also like them to do things like make Blue Basic unavailable up close when only high fares are left. Doesn't make a lot of sense for me to be paying much higher fare and still be subject to BE restrictions.

One things I find interesting is not having free baggage in any of the new fare options. That definitely shows where they are getting a lot of ancillary revenues on.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 761
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:34 pm

tphuang wrote:
One things I find interesting is not having free baggage in any of the new fare options. That definitely shows where they are getting a lot of ancillary revenues on.


? almost everyone skips checking their baggage and brings it onboard for free. Many just bring it to the gate knowing it will be checked for free there.

That is why I am so surprised blue basic is allowing a carry on roller board. They'd of made a lot more money if they went the spirit route with blue basic and charged for the carry on. I don't get it.
 
trueblew
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:05 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
tphuang wrote:
One things I find interesting is not having free baggage in any of the new fare options. That definitely shows where they are getting a lot of ancillary revenues on.


? almost everyone skips checking their baggage and brings it onboard for free. Many just bring it to the gate knowing it will be checked for free there.

That is why I am so surprised blue basic is allowing a carry on roller board. They'd of made a lot more money if they went the spirit route with blue basic and charged for the carry on. I don't get it.


And interestingly, B6 gate agents regularly allow carryon bags down the jetway which are WAY too big for the overhead bins, which leads to a gate check scenario and sometimes a delay. I see other airlines intercept these bags at the gate, and subsequently charge the checked bag fee for bags which are clearly too big to be carryons.

Why B6 doesn't do this is beyond me. Leaving money on the table and causing last minute delays.
 
phllax
Posts: 614
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:53 am

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:46 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
N757ST wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Really, do you know where they are moving? I can't imagine AA will allow them to stay in T5 given their agreement with LAX. All the LCCs need to move somewhere. I thought MSC was the only available spot until they can build T0 or something.


I’m not sure. I’m pretty sure most of the ULCCs and Hawaiian are moving, but as far as I was told jetblue is staying put in T5.


AA is getting T5 to itself, so everybody is certainly leaving.


As an update here, I was at a meeting yesterday with a representative from LAWA presenting on the landside improvements. I asked about B6 and whether or not they were staying in T5 or moving to MSC, and she said that negotiations were still ongoing with T5 tenants and nothing's been set in stone yet with regards to who will be operating out of, let alone a signatory tenant in the MSC.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26286
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:50 pm

phllax wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
N757ST wrote:

I’m not sure. I’m pretty sure most of the ULCCs and Hawaiian are moving, but as far as I was told jetblue is staying put in T5.


AA is getting T5 to itself, so everybody is certainly leaving.


As an update here, I was at a meeting yesterday with a representative from LAWA presenting on the landside improvements. I asked about B6 and whether or not they were staying in T5 or moving to MSC, and she said that negotiations were still ongoing with T5 tenants and nothing's been set in stone yet with regards to who will be operating out of, let alone a signatory tenant in the MSC.


I'm sure negotiations are ongoing for the non-AA tenants to leave, but American Airlines has committed to spend $1.6B of its own money to redesign T4 and T5 into one cohesive terminal for itself, and trading in the remote regional gates for the rest of the gates in 5.

JetBlue is leaving.

http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... fault.aspx
a.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5440
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:14 pm

another look at JetBlue's network next summer with the recent extension. This is just my own non-scientifc counting. All numbers subject to change. I picked what I think might be a peak day in July to count. Here are the numbers.

JFK - 177 (from a Friday). This seems to be the highest numbers I've seen in recent years. I think the peak was 174/175 last year. So they must be adding a couple of more flights at times where slot is not an issue (especially those VFR flights). I think quite a bit of increase YoY from the longer ranged flights on A321 replacing within perimeter E90 flights.

BOS - 183 (from a Monday). A big bump from low to mid 160s last summer. It's not just the close to 15% more flights, but also the amount of upgauging on the existing flights and the longer range from all the added transcons. I wouldn't be surprised if their ASM is up 20 to 25% YoY. That's a huge YoY growth.

FLL - 100 (from a Monday). That's about flat YoY and down from 105 right now in November. Again, summer is low season at FLL, but the growth has definitely slowed down with a lot of cuts to the islands. I still think there is quite a bit of growth from the upgauging. I'm sure without the DL buildup in BOS, FLL would be getting a lot more adds. Would not be surprised if they are behind NK in market share next year.

MCO - 67 (from a Friday). That's up slightly YoY. Also seeing a lot more upgauging here. In general, they haven't really done much here in building up their network recently. The flight increases are to places they are already strong in like PR + NorthEast in place of places where they struggle more like Latin America.

SJU - 43 (from a Monday). That's quite a bit of growth after several years of stagnation due to Hurricane Maria.

So overall, seems like a lot of growth overall from all the focus cities. After a year or so of stagnation in number of flights, we are seeing a lot more flights next summer compared to this summer. We are also see a lot of upgauging with more A321s and more reconfigured A320s. the stage length will probably grow a little more too. Seems like Q3 2020 will have a lot of growth, so it's good that they are getting their costs under control. BOS is getting a whole lot of growth next summer. Will be interesting to see how that affects the yield there. JFK is seeing a bit of growth too, but a lot of NYC growth will be at EWR. So looks like JetBlue is really focusing on growing their 2 main focus cities, which is good to see.
 
flymia
Posts: 7129
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:08 pm

So I've been pricing out seats for FLL-NYC in April. B6 was sitting at $104 each-way for sometime over the past few weeks (before basic).

Now? Basic is $104 each-way with a bunch showing basic is "Sold Out" while the standard fare, which is what you used to get with their lowest fare, is now $10-$20 more per-person each way.

Its not a scam, but is JetBlue really think we are dumb people that we don't know what they are doing?

Now the "sold out" seats at basic, what does that even mean?
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
BunkerF16
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:54 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:13 pm

flymia wrote:
So I've been pricing out seats for FLL-NYC in April. B6 was sitting at $104 each-way for sometime over the past few weeks (before basic).

Now? Basic is $104 each-way with a bunch showing basic is "Sold Out" while the standard fare, which is what you used to get with their lowest fare, is now $10-$20 more per-person each way.

Its not a scam, but is JetBlue really think we are dumb people that we don't know what they are doing?

Now the "sold out" seats at basic, what does that even mean?


I think there are some routes the basic won't be offered, so it shows "sold out". Or. Maybe. It's actually sold out. My guess, for this stage, it's the former as opposed to the later.
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1300
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:41 pm

tphuang wrote:
another look at JetBlue's network next summer with the recent extension. This is just my own non-scientifc counting. All numbers subject to change. I picked what I think might be a peak day in July to count. Here are the numbers.

JFK - 177 (from a Friday). This seems to be the highest numbers I've seen in recent years. I think the peak was 174/175 last year. So they must be adding a couple of more flights at times where slot is not an issue (especially those VFR flights). I think quite a bit of increase YoY from the longer ranged flights on A321 replacing within perimeter E90 flights.

BOS - 183 (from a Monday). A big bump from low to mid 160s last summer. It's not just the close to 15% more flights, but also the amount of upgauging on the existing flights and the longer range from all the added transcons. I wouldn't be surprised if their ASM is up 20 to 25% YoY. That's a huge YoY growth.

FLL - 100 (from a Monday). That's about flat YoY and down from 105 right now in November. Again, summer is low season at FLL, but the growth has definitely slowed down with a lot of cuts to the islands. I still think there is quite a bit of growth from the upgauging. I'm sure without the DL buildup in BOS, FLL would be getting a lot more adds. Would not be surprised if they are behind NK in market share next year.

MCO - 67 (from a Friday). That's up slightly YoY. Also seeing a lot more upgauging here. In general, they haven't really done much here in building up their network recently. The flight increases are to places they are already strong in like PR + NorthEast in place of places where they struggle more like Latin America.

SJU - 43 (from a Monday). That's quite a bit of growth after several years of stagnation due to Hurricane Maria.

So overall, seems like a lot of growth overall from all the focus cities. After a year or so of stagnation in number of flights, we are seeing a lot more flights next summer compared to this summer. We are also see a lot of upgauging with more A321s and more reconfigured A320s. the stage length will probably grow a little more too. Seems like Q3 2020 will have a lot of growth, so it's good that they are getting their costs under control. BOS is getting a whole lot of growth next summer. Will be interesting to see how that affects the yield there. JFK is seeing a bit of growth too, but a lot of NYC growth will be at EWR. So looks like JetBlue is really focusing on growing their 2 main focus cities, which is good to see.



You mentioned EWR, do you know any of B6’s plans to grow there for next summer? I’m very curious!
 
tphuang
Posts: 5440
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:28 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
tphuang wrote:
another look at JetBlue's network next summer with the recent extension. This is just my own non-scientifc counting. All numbers subject to change. I picked what I think might be a peak day in July to count. Here are the numbers.

JFK - 177 (from a Friday). This seems to be the highest numbers I've seen in recent years. I think the peak was 174/175 last year. So they must be adding a couple of more flights at times where slot is not an issue (especially those VFR flights). I think quite a bit of increase YoY from the longer ranged flights on A321 replacing within perimeter E90 flights.

BOS - 183 (from a Monday). A big bump from low to mid 160s last summer. It's not just the close to 15% more flights, but also the amount of upgauging on the existing flights and the longer range from all the added transcons. I wouldn't be surprised if their ASM is up 20 to 25% YoY. That's a huge YoY growth.

FLL - 100 (from a Monday). That's about flat YoY and down from 105 right now in November. Again, summer is low season at FLL, but the growth has definitely slowed down with a lot of cuts to the islands. I still think there is quite a bit of growth from the upgauging. I'm sure without the DL buildup in BOS, FLL would be getting a lot more adds. Would not be surprised if they are behind NK in market share next year.

MCO - 67 (from a Friday). That's up slightly YoY. Also seeing a lot more upgauging here. In general, they haven't really done much here in building up their network recently. The flight increases are to places they are already strong in like PR + NorthEast in place of places where they struggle more like Latin America.

SJU - 43 (from a Monday). That's quite a bit of growth after several years of stagnation due to Hurricane Maria.

So overall, seems like a lot of growth overall from all the focus cities. After a year or so of stagnation in number of flights, we are seeing a lot more flights next summer compared to this summer. We are also see a lot of upgauging with more A321s and more reconfigured A320s. the stage length will probably grow a little more too. Seems like Q3 2020 will have a lot of growth, so it's good that they are getting their costs under control. BOS is getting a whole lot of growth next summer. Will be interesting to see how that affects the yield there. JFK is seeing a bit of growth too, but a lot of NYC growth will be at EWR. So looks like JetBlue is really focusing on growing their 2 main focus cities, which is good to see.



You mentioned EWR, do you know any of B6’s plans to grow there for next summer? I’m very curious!


They are going up from 25 to 33 departures next summer with 3 a321s flights scheduled. So the first time we will have seen a321s at ewr. My guess is 40 to 50% growth in asm yoy. For spring, they are going from peak of 31 to 36 departures. So a smaller growth, but probably still 20 to 25% yoy. As for whether or not they will grow even more, that really depends on aircraft deliveries, jfk slot situations and whether or not they will get more gate. I see no reason why b6 can't continue to add at ewr as long as JFK is slot constrained. They are limited by gate availability and also ewr becoming restricted from adding flights in rush hours. If there aren't these limitations, then adding lax mint service along with more island service all seem to be obvious moves.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1740
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:42 pm

flymia wrote:
So I've been pricing out seats for FLL-NYC in April. B6 was sitting at $104 each-way for sometime over the past few weeks (before basic).

Now? Basic is $104 each-way with a bunch showing basic is "Sold Out" while the standard fare, which is what you used to get with their lowest fare, is now $10-$20 more per-person each way.

Its not a scam, but is JetBlue really think we are dumb people that we don't know what they are doing?

Now the "sold out" seats at basic, what does that even mean?

This isn’t unique. This is how basic economy has been done. The low fare now becomes the basic fare. It’s basically a fare increase being sold as “more choice.”
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
Abeam79
Posts: 329
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:03 am

tphuang wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
tphuang wrote:
another look at JetBlue's network next summer with the recent extension. This is just my own non-scientifc counting. All numbers subject to change. I picked what I think might be a peak day in July to count. Here are the numbers.

JFK - 177 (from a Friday). This seems to be the highest numbers I've seen in recent years. I think the peak was 174/175 last year. So they must be adding a couple of more flights at times where slot is not an issue (especially those VFR flights). I think quite a bit of increase YoY from the longer ranged flights on A321 replacing within perimeter E90 flights.

BOS - 183 (from a Monday). A big bump from low to mid 160s last summer. It's not just the close to 15% more flights, but also the amount of upgauging on the existing flights and the longer range from all the added transcons. I wouldn't be surprised if their ASM is up 20 to 25% YoY. That's a huge YoY growth.

FLL - 100 (from a Monday). That's about flat YoY and down from 105 right now in November. Again, summer is low season at FLL, but the growth has definitely slowed down with a lot of cuts to the islands. I still think there is quite a bit of growth from the upgauging. I'm sure without the DL buildup in BOS, FLL would be getting a lot more adds. Would not be surprised if they are behind NK in market share next year.

MCO - 67 (from a Friday). That's up slightly YoY. Also seeing a lot more upgauging here. In general, they haven't really done much here in building up their network recently. The flight increases are to places they are already strong in like PR + NorthEast in place of places where they struggle more like Latin America.

SJU - 43 (from a Monday). That's quite a bit of growth after several years of stagnation due to Hurricane Maria.

So overall, seems like a lot of growth overall from all the focus cities. After a year or so of stagnation in number of flights, we are seeing a lot more flights next summer compared to this summer. We are also see a lot of upgauging with more A321s and more reconfigured A320s. the stage length will probably grow a little more too. Seems like Q3 2020 will have a lot of growth, so it's good that they are getting their costs under control. BOS is getting a whole lot of growth next summer. Will be interesting to see how that affects the yield there. JFK is seeing a bit of growth too, but a lot of NYC growth will be at EWR. So looks like JetBlue is really focusing on growing their 2 main focus cities, which is good to see.



You mentioned EWR, do you know any of B6’s plans to grow there for next summer? I’m very curious!


They are going up from 25 to 33 departures next summer with 3 a321s flights scheduled. So the first time we will have seen a321s at ewr. My guess is 40 to 50% growth in asm yoy. For spring, they are going from peak of 31 to 36 departures. So a smaller growth, but probably still 20 to 25% yoy. As for whether or not they will grow even more, that really depends on aircraft deliveries, jfk slot situations and whether or not they will get more gate. I see no reason why b6 can't continue to add at ewr as long as JFK is slot constrained. They are limited by gate availability and also ewr becoming restricted from adding flights in rush hours. If there aren't these limitations, then adding lax mint service along with more island service all seem to be obvious moves.

Just asked about any new gates at ewr when I flew on b6 the other day, they said they already picked up another gate in the current terminal that wn vacated next to them, and since there will be construction, they also got gate 30 it sounded like. It also sounded like they are positioning themselves to add flying so panynj will consider to give them priority over the gates in the new terminal being built. So sounds like B6 is keen on growing ewr whichever way they can.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:04 pm

Even as published, EWR sees growth next year. They may add more

EWR growth is safe growth. Adding Florida and Island flying offsets the losses that some of the new BOS and FLL flying brings

Note they haven’t tried transcons from EWR yet. That would be a riskier add...I will think they are looking for a safe space at EWR
 
CobaltScar
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:08 pm

EWR-MCO is or is going to something insane like 8x daily. B6 sure is huge in the NYC area. Speaking of gates and constraints, the airport at HPN can get packed to the gills at certain times of day.

Whoever ends up acquiring B6 one day is going to get one hell of a NYC turn-key operation.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:23 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Since almost every airline has now copied the concept of "Basic Economy" with JetBlue as the last holdout, the advantage relatively to the completion is gone.
You wonder what is next in the race to the bottom....


Well, there's this little, 750-aircraft airline called Southwest that still allows re-use of cancelled fares and two checked bags free.

The other nine largest U.S. carriers, though, all now have or have announced some forms of basic economy fares. Southwest may be able to swim against the current but B6 can't.
Last edited by MIflyer12 on Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:25 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
That is why I am so surprised blue basic is allowing a carry on roller board.


Basic Economy fares by DL/AA/AS (and of course Southwest) all allow a free carry-on (not just a personal item). United is the legacy outlier on this. Do you want B6 to compete on service levels with AA/DL/AS or with Spirit, Allegiant and Frontier? Compared those PRASMs or TRASMs lately?
 
CobaltScar
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:44 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
That is why I am so surprised blue basic is allowing a carry on roller board.


Basic Economy fares by DL/AA/AS (and of course Southwest) all allow a free carry-on (not just a personal item). United is the legacy outlier on this. Do you want B6 to compete on service levels with AA/DL/AS or with Spirit, Allegiant and Frontier? Compared those PRASMs or TRASMs lately?


I guarantee you B6 would be more profitable if it did infact go the Allegiant/F9/NK route.
 
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ChrisNH38
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:49 pm

Something that doesn’t show up on the stats sheet:

JetBlue is flying their NYFD tribute plane to Worcester, Massachusetts today as a show of respect for the Worcester firefighter who lost his life saving a baby and a fellow fireman earlier this week.
https://my.flightradar24.com/ChrisNH
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:02 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Even as published, EWR sees growth next year. They may add more

EWR growth is safe growth. Adding Florida and Island flying offsets the losses that some of the new BOS and FLL flying brings

Note they haven’t tried transcons from EWR yet. That would be a riskier add...I will think they are looking for a safe space at EWR


Any word on whether or not jfk slot constraints will be loosened now that the runway is completed? That would seem to be the greatest impediment to EWR growth.

Abeam79 wrote:
Just asked about any new gates at ewr when I flew on b6 the other day, they said they already picked up another gate in the current terminal that wn vacated next to them, and since there will be construction, they also got gate 30 it sounded like. It also sounded like they are positioning themselves to add flying so panynj will consider to give them priority over the gates in the new terminal being built. So sounds like B6 is keen on growing ewr whichever way they can.


Based on their EWR schedule coming up, it's pretty clear they already got one of the WN gates. I'd have to fly them out of EWR sometimes, but would they be getting gate 30 just in time of construction in place of a gate they are losing or is this a permanent add. For me, if they can get priority access for like 8 gates in the new terminal, that will be a better growth opportunity than pretty anywhere other than JFK/BOS. They can certainly shift some of their island flying from JFK to EWR to free up slots for Europe.
Last edited by tphuang on Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
BlueBaller
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:10 pm

tphuang wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Even as published, EWR sees growth next year. They may add more

EWR growth is safe growth. Adding Florida and Island flying offsets the losses that some of the new BOS and FLL flying brings

Note they haven’t tried transcons from EWR yet. That would be a riskier add...I will think they are looking for a safe space at EWR


Any word on whether or not jfk slot constraints will be loosened now that the runway is completed? That would seem to be the greatest impediment to EWR growth.


All they did was close a runway for reinforcing and resurfacing. JFK's had the same configuration for decades, there's been no increase in capacity.
 
flyby519
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:18 pm

tphuang wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Even as published, EWR sees growth next year. They may add more

EWR growth is safe growth. Adding Florida and Island flying offsets the losses that some of the new BOS and FLL flying brings

Note they haven’t tried transcons from EWR yet. That would be a riskier add...I will think they are looking for a safe space at EWR


Any word on whether or not jfk slot constraints will be loosened now that the runway is completed? That would seem to be the greatest impediment to EWR growth.



Apparently that was the plan when EWR lost slot controls and JFK was starting construction, but the word I heard is no expected change in JFK slot controls because of the continued/worsened congestion at EWR (and EWR is basically still slot controlled since flight schedules still have to be coordinated through the FAA).
 
dtremit
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:56 pm

BunkerF16 wrote:
flymia wrote:
So I've been pricing out seats for FLL-NYC in April. B6 was sitting at $104 each-way for sometime over the past few weeks (before basic).

Now? Basic is $104 each-way with a bunch showing basic is "Sold Out" while the standard fare, which is what you used to get with their lowest fare, is now $10-$20 more per-person each way.

Its not a scam, but is JetBlue really think we are dumb people that we don't know what they are doing?

Now the "sold out" seats at basic, what does that even mean?


I think there are some routes the basic won't be offered, so it shows "sold out". Or. Maybe. It's actually sold out. My guess, for this stage, it's the former as opposed to the later.


From poking around on their website -- if Blue Basic isn't offered on the route at all, the column doesn't appear. Site just shows Blue and Blue Extra.
If it *is* offered on the route, you'll see the column -- but it appears that when the Blue fare is higher, Blue Basic is no longer offered.

For example -- looking at FLL-JFK on Jan 7 --
the 5:10a departure is $164 Blue, $149 Basic (diff = $15)
--Basic fare = ZI2ABEL1 , booking code "L"
--Blue fare = ZI2ABEY5, booking code "Z"
the 9:06a departure is $149 Blue, $134 Basic (diff = $15)
--Basic fare = OI4ABEL1 , booking code "L"
--Blue fare = OI4ABEY5, booking code "O"
the 6:17a departure is $189 Blue, Basic "sold out"
--Blue fare = MC7AUEY5, booking code "M"
the 12:15p departure is $214 blue, Basic "sold out"
--Blue fare = WC7ABEY5, booking code "W"

So it looks like the Basic fares are filed as variants of the Blue fares, and only offered on lower fare classes.

Seat selection charges for Blue Basic, on this route: $5-11 for Core middle seats, and Core rows at the back of the plane (row 19 and up on an A320). $13-15 for other Core seats. $70-$76 for EMS seats. The EMS seats on that route are $50-56 on Blue fares, so it's a $20 premium.

As far as I can tell, Blue Basic is currently only being offered on flights between BOS/JFK/EWR and MCO/LAS, plus JFK-FLL.
 
jetbluefan1
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:41 pm

dtremit wrote:
BunkerF16 wrote:
flymia wrote:
So I've been pricing out seats for FLL-NYC in April. B6 was sitting at $104 each-way for sometime over the past few weeks (before basic).

Now? Basic is $104 each-way with a bunch showing basic is "Sold Out" while the standard fare, which is what you used to get with their lowest fare, is now $10-$20 more per-person each way.

Its not a scam, but is JetBlue really think we are dumb people that we don't know what they are doing?

Now the "sold out" seats at basic, what does that even mean?


I think there are some routes the basic won't be offered, so it shows "sold out". Or. Maybe. It's actually sold out. My guess, for this stage, it's the former as opposed to the later.


From poking around on their website -- if Blue Basic isn't offered on the route at all, the column doesn't appear. Site just shows Blue and Blue Extra.
If it *is* offered on the route, you'll see the column -- but it appears that when the Blue fare is higher, Blue Basic is no longer offered.

For example -- looking at FLL-JFK on Jan 7 --
the 5:10a departure is $164 Blue, $149 Basic (diff = $15)
--Basic fare = ZI2ABEL1 , booking code "L"
--Blue fare = ZI2ABEY5, booking code "Z"
the 9:06a departure is $149 Blue, $134 Basic (diff = $15)
--Basic fare = OI4ABEL1 , booking code "L"
--Blue fare = OI4ABEY5, booking code "O"
the 6:17a departure is $189 Blue, Basic "sold out"
--Blue fare = MC7AUEY5, booking code "M"
the 12:15p departure is $214 blue, Basic "sold out"
--Blue fare = WC7ABEY5, booking code "W"

So it looks like the Basic fares are filed as variants of the Blue fares, and only offered on lower fare classes.

Seat selection charges for Blue Basic, on this route: $5-11 for Core middle seats, and Core rows at the back of the plane (row 19 and up on an A320). $13-15 for other Core seats. $70-$76 for EMS seats. The EMS seats on that route are $50-56 on Blue fares, so it's a $20 premium.

As far as I can tell, Blue Basic is currently only being offered on flights between BOS/JFK/EWR and MCO/LAS, plus JFK-FLL.


Thanks for the info! I also see Blue Basic on FLL-NAS. Overall I think we will see this fare class used most heavily at FLL, where B6 is competing with NK in most markets.

It appears Basic fares are $9-$19 less than Blue, and Blue Extra/Plus are $70 more than Blue.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:04 pm

jetbluefan1 wrote:
dtremit wrote:
BunkerF16 wrote:

I think there are some routes the basic won't be offered, so it shows "sold out". Or. Maybe. It's actually sold out. My guess, for this stage, it's the former as opposed to the later.


From poking around on their website -- if Blue Basic isn't offered on the route at all, the column doesn't appear. Site just shows Blue and Blue Extra.
If it *is* offered on the route, you'll see the column -- but it appears that when the Blue fare is higher, Blue Basic is no longer offered.

For example -- looking at FLL-JFK on Jan 7 --
the 5:10a departure is $164 Blue, $149 Basic (diff = $15)
--Basic fare = ZI2ABEL1 , booking code "L"
--Blue fare = ZI2ABEY5, booking code "Z"
the 9:06a departure is $149 Blue, $134 Basic (diff = $15)
--Basic fare = OI4ABEL1 , booking code "L"
--Blue fare = OI4ABEY5, booking code "O"
the 6:17a departure is $189 Blue, Basic "sold out"
--Blue fare = MC7AUEY5, booking code "M"
the 12:15p departure is $214 blue, Basic "sold out"
--Blue fare = WC7ABEY5, booking code "W"

So it looks like the Basic fares are filed as variants of the Blue fares, and only offered on lower fare classes.

Seat selection charges for Blue Basic, on this route: $5-11 for Core middle seats, and Core rows at the back of the plane (row 19 and up on an A320). $13-15 for other Core seats. $70-$76 for EMS seats. The EMS seats on that route are $50-56 on Blue fares, so it's a $20 premium.

As far as I can tell, Blue Basic is currently only being offered on flights between BOS/JFK/EWR and MCO/LAS, plus JFK-FLL.


Thanks for the info! I also see Blue Basic on FLL-NAS. Overall I think we will see this fare class used most heavily at FLL, where B6 is competing with NK in most markets.

It appears Basic fares are $9-$19 less than Blue, and Blue Extra/Plus are $70 more than Blue.


That would explain the comments about increased revenue as a result of this, charge a little less for Basic but a bunch more for the higher fares. More seats + higher price = more revenue (assuming there are people sitting on those seats of course)
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
dtremit
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:32 pm

jetbluefan1 wrote:

Thanks for the info! I also see Blue Basic on FLL-NAS. Overall I think we will see this fare class used most heavily at FLL, where B6 is competing with NK in most markets.

It appears Basic fares are $9-$19 less than Blue, and Blue Extra/Plus are $70 more than Blue.


I did see a slightly higher differential for LAS flights, which were $25 more for Blue -- if they end up rolling this out to transcons I might expect it to be a bit higher yet.

VS4ever wrote:
That would explain the comments about increased revenue as a result of this, charge a little less for Basic but a bunch more for the higher fares. More seats + higher price = more revenue (assuming there are people sitting on those seats of course)


They are definitely trying to upsell passengers to Blue -- if you pick a Blue Basic fare, you have to get past this dialog box to proceed, and "Accept Restrictions":

Image
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:24 am

Re JFK slots:

The new runway with extra turnoffs completed an airport wide plan to mitigate delays thru more efficient use of the runways

All have been rebuilt

THE PLAN WAS TO SCRAP SLOTS ONCE THE LAST RUNWAY WAS COMPLETE

However, EWR has been a disaster and some form of lesser slotting has been put back in place

From what I have heard, this may have changed JFK plans
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:45 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Re JFK slots:

The new runway with extra turnoffs completed an airport wide plan to mitigate delays thru more efficient use of the runways

All have been rebuilt

THE PLAN WAS TO SCRAP SLOTS ONCE THE LAST RUNWAY WAS COMPLETE

However, EWR has been a disaster and some form of lesser slotting has been put back in place

From what I have heard, this may have changed JFK plans


Well in that case, they need to get on the phone with AA and keep calling them for both JFK slots and EWR gates.

From this week's OAG thread
B6 BOS-SDQ FEB 1.4>1.1[1.1]
B6 CUN-FLL JUN 2>3[1.6] JUL 2>3[2] AUG 2>3[2]
B6 FLL-NAS JAN 4>3[4] JUN 3>4[4] JUL 3>4[4] AUG 3>4[4]
B6 FLL-PAP JAN 1.6>1.3[2] FEB 2>1.6[2]
B6 FLL-RIC JUN 1.2>1.5[1.3] JUL 1.0>1.6[1.0] AUG 1.0>1.6[1.0]
B6 HPN-RSW MAR 1.2>2[1.0] APR 1.1>2[1.0]
B6 JFK-PAP JAN 1.8>1.3[2.0]

Big news with DL exiting PAP completely, which is pretty good news for B6. Short term, PAP is a struggle with the political stuff. Long term, having monopoly in the NYC-Haiti market is going to be very profitable in the long term especially with LGA/JFK-ATL-PAP is no longer an option. They can keep adjusting the capacity to match the demand. Those peak VFR months will be very profitable.

Other than that, CUN-FLL looks to be at an all time high. WN had performed terribly with their 3x schedule there and now pared it back to peak 2x daily. NAS will probably be a struggle for a while, but they look to be willing to take some losses here to maintain their market share. Maybe they are looking to run WN off this route. They added a E90 to RIC on some summer days. This has been a struggle against NK.

HPN is kind of interesting. They are now running in April.
3x A320 + 2x E90 to PBI
1x A320 + 1x E90 to FLL
1x A320 + 2x E90 to MCO
1x A320 + 1x E90 to RSW
1x E90 to TPA
That's 13 total flights with 6 on A320s. A couple of years ago, they were at 11 flights with very few A320s. Is HPN increasing its hourly passenger limit with no other airlines using them? How are they getting these additional capacity in there?
 
LAXBUR
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:33 pm

flymia wrote:

Its not a scam, but is JetBlue really think we are dumb people that we don't know what they are doing?


The American flying public is not smart. Unless you’re flying with a small backpack I have never found these ULCCs to be cheaper than anyone else when you add in fees. They’ve always been as much or more as a legacy or Southwest. Terrible value. Allegiant does seem to offer an actual value sometimes, the caveat being non-daily schedules and that’s if they even fly where you’re going.

Many people will simply book the cheapest base fare then pay for all the extras. They won’t research or breakdown what they’re actually paying.
 
Brickell305
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:22 pm

LAXBUR wrote:
flymia wrote:

Its not a scam, but is JetBlue really think we are dumb people that we don't know what they are doing?


The American flying public is not smart. Unless you’re flying with a small backpack I have never found these ULCCs to be cheaper than anyone else when you add in fees. They’ve always been as much or more as a legacy or Southwest. Terrible value. Allegiant does seem to offer an actual value sometimes, the caveat being non-daily schedules and that’s if they even fly where you’re going.

Many people will simply book the cheapest base fare then pay for all the extras. They won’t research or breakdown what they’re actually paying.

That’s a simplistic way of looking at it. Even if overall, a ULCC costs slightly more if you factor in fees (even though oftentimes they are still cheaper), the fact of the matter is you don’t have to pay for everything (ticket and additional fees) all at once which in and of itself might make it more affordable for families and more price sensitive travelers.
 
LAXBUR
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Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:05 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:45 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:
flymia wrote:

Its not a scam, but is JetBlue really think we are dumb people that we don't know what they are doing?


The American flying public is not smart. Unless you’re flying with a small backpack I have never found these ULCCs to be cheaper than anyone else when you add in fees. They’ve always been as much or more as a legacy or Southwest. Terrible value. Allegiant does seem to offer an actual value sometimes, the caveat being non-daily schedules and that’s if they even fly where you’re going.

Many people will simply book the cheapest base fare then pay for all the extras. They won’t research or breakdown what they’re actually paying.

That’s a simplistic way of looking at it. Even if overall, a ULCC costs slightly more if you factor in fees (even though oftentimes they are still cheaper), the fact of the matter is you don’t have to pay for everything (ticket and additional fees) all at once which in and of itself might make it more affordable for families and more price sensitive travelers.


“Affordable” is certainly not the right word. Additionally, many of these ULCC airlines charge more when you don’t bundle at booking. So it gets more expensive, not more affordable. And if a family is flying they are definitely paying carry on and/or checked bag fee(s).

The airlines don’t offer these fares to make less money and save us money, they offer them to make more money.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2489
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:01 pm

LAXBUR wrote:
flymia wrote:

Its not a scam, but is JetBlue really think we are dumb people that we don't know what they are doing?


The American flying public is not smart. Unless you’re flying with a small backpack I have never found these ULCCs to be cheaper than anyone else when you add in fees. They’ve always been as much or more as a legacy or Southwest. Terrible value. Allegiant does seem to offer an actual value sometimes, the caveat being non-daily schedules and that’s if they even fly where you’re going.

Many people will simply book the cheapest base fare then pay for all the extras. They won’t research or breakdown what they’re actually paying.


I'm not sure about "the American flying public", but I do know that you can piss off people rather easily.
Case in point: I once decided to check out one of these LCCs, enticed by the seemingly low upfront fare (say half what the competition was asking). By the time I ended up at the payment page, the fare had tripled (fees, fees, fees, more fees, and taxes). I was so FURIOUS that I vowed to absolutely never ever check those LCCs again and just book with the competition. LCCs are just a WASTE OF TIME.
 
LAXBUR
Posts: 412
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:05 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:22 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:
flymia wrote:

Its not a scam, but is JetBlue really think we are dumb people that we don't know what they are doing?


The American flying public is not smart. Unless you’re flying with a small backpack I have never found these ULCCs to be cheaper than anyone else when you add in fees. They’ve always been as much or more as a legacy or Southwest. Terrible value. Allegiant does seem to offer an actual value sometimes, the caveat being non-daily schedules and that’s if they even fly where you’re going.

Many people will simply book the cheapest base fare then pay for all the extras. They won’t research or breakdown what they’re actually paying.


I'm not sure about "the American flying public", but I do know that you can piss off people rather easily.
Case in point: I once decided to check out one of these LCCs, enticed by the seemingly low upfront fare (say half what the competition was asking). By the time I ended up at the payment page, the fare had tripled (fees, fees, fees, more fees, and taxes). I was so FURIOUS that I vowed to absolutely never ever check those LCCs again and just book with the competition. LCCs are just a WASTE OF TIME.


That was my point. They’re not a good value.

Folks on this board just don’t understand that most people don’t know anything about airplanes, airlines, or fares. Yes, business travelers and frequent travelers may be core business but they aren’t the bulk of passengers in most cases. Joe Schmoe is just going to Expedia or some other booking engine, seeing airline ABC has fare for $19 and going from there. Thinking all the fees will be the same for the other higher fared airlines. Joe Schmoe thinks he got a deal. These fares exist to milk Joe Schmoe (and force elites into also spending more). They are in no way designed to offer value. It may work for a handful of travelers who can travel with a back pack and sit wherever.

I worked for an airline people don’t know what they’re buying and often don’t even know what airline they are flying till they get to the airport.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2489
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2019

Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:31 pm

LAXBUR wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:

The American flying public is not smart. Unless you’re flying with a small backpack I have never found these ULCCs to be cheaper than anyone else when you add in fees. They’ve always been as much or more as a legacy or Southwest. Terrible value. Allegiant does seem to offer an actual value sometimes, the caveat being non-daily schedules and that’s if they even fly where you’re going.

Many people will simply book the cheapest base fare then pay for all the extras. They won’t research or breakdown what they’re actually paying.


I'm not sure about "the American flying public", but I do know that you can piss off people rather easily.
Case in point: I once decided to check out one of these LCCs, enticed by the seemingly low upfront fare (say half what the competition was asking). By the time I ended up at the payment page, the fare had tripled (fees, fees, fees, more fees, and taxes). I was so FURIOUS that I vowed to absolutely never ever check those LCCs again and just book with the competition. LCCs are just a WASTE OF TIME.


That was my point. They’re not a good value.

Folks on this board just don’t understand that most people don’t know anything about airplanes, airlines, or fares. Yes, business travelers and frequent travelers may be core business but they aren’t the bulk of passengers in most cases. Joe Schmoe is just going to Expedia or some other booking engine, seeing airline ABC has fare for $19 and going from there. Thinking all the fees will be the same for the other higher fared airlines. Joe Schmoe thinks he got a deal. These fares exist to milk Joe Schmoe (and force elites into also spending more). They are in no way designed to offer value. It may work for a handful of travelers who can travel with a back pack and sit wherever.

I worked for an airline people don’t know what they’re buying and often don’t even know what airline they are flying till they get to the airport.


I know of one of such person: a colleague of mine.
He likes to fly Air France or Delta and is very hard to convince otherwise. I argued endlessly with him trying to broaden his horizon. No luck.
Then he is the type that waits until the last minute to buy his airfare. I told him billions of times to perhaps start checking a month or so in advance to see if he can get a cheaper fare for the trip he knows he will take for sure. But no, he stares at me like I'm some alien, tells me he is too busy with programming or fiddling with electronics. Then I give up and he buys his fare a week in advance for much more than it should have been.

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