Is This ......safe?

hkgspotter1 · Sat Mar 16, 2002 8:07 pm

Take a look at this photo. Is flying a 747 without one engine OK ??. I know you can do ferry flights with a engine out but with the entire engine missing !!!!!!. Just hope one of the other three don't die I guess !

How long a flight is it from Honululu to Oscoda ?

Click for large version

Photo © Norman Gage

P.S. Is it normal to be able to see through the pylon ??

Ndebele · Sat Mar 16, 2002 8:15 pm

L-188 · Sat Mar 16, 2002 8:30 pm

Thats something that you don't see every day.

I assume it is safe since they got permisson to do it.

This of course as the photographer mentioned isn't a revenue flight. It is a ferry flight.

hkgspotter1 · Sat Mar 16, 2002 9:17 pm

You never know what those kind of carriers do.

777236ER · Sat Mar 16, 2002 9:57 pm

Shouldn't be a problem. Obviously a lot of trim would be needed, but as long as ZFW is kept down, it could loose another engine and still be ok.

caribb · Sat Mar 16, 2002 10:12 pm

I don't know about anyone else but I wouldn't be too comfortable with this if I were onboard...

hkg_clk · Sat Mar 16, 2002 10:14 pm

That plane looks like it's in poor condition!

What if an engine was out on a twin jet. Could they still do a ferry flight on one engine?

gmonney · Sat Mar 16, 2002 10:24 pm

Hkg_clk,

No you can not take off with only one engine, you have to have two working engines to take off.....this is a by memory and its not to good, but I believe that you can not transport passengers without having all engines operational.....again....i remember reading this before?

Grant

TechRep · Sat Mar 16, 2002 10:39 pm

This is Connie Kalitta's son Scott Kalitta's airline. I worked for this outfit for 8 months in LAX, it was my first line maintenance job, 11 years ago.

This airline as well as Kalitta Flying Service is well known to be very unsafe and sub-standard practices are always the norm.

In fact the VP of Maintenance was prosecuted for stealing two Radio Altimeters from an Emery DC-8 many years ago. He stands the only person I have ever known to have his license permanently revoked.

To say the least they are a bottom dwelling cargo airline that will ADHOC any freight, in fact Connie has some landing rights into the most remote regions of the world.

An FAA inspector approached me on the ramp one day and he told me, "If you value your A&P license you better not work for this guy too much longer", he meant well and I quit some time after.

TechRep

kl713 · Sat Mar 16, 2002 10:48 pm

hmm...this picture reminds me a little bit of the Bijlmer-disaster with that LY-freighter in Amsterdam in 1992.......

hkgspotter1 · Sat Mar 16, 2002 10:55 pm

Can anyone give me another case where the same has happened ?. I understood it would be normal to bring the parts in, not fly the plane to the parts.

AdamHarvard · Sat Mar 16, 2002 11:06 pm

This is the very same aircraft that can be seen making a very high-nose-up landing here at A.net:......what is this airline like!

Click for large version

Photo © Torsten Maiwald

DL3744 · Sat Mar 16, 2002 11:20 pm

whoa thats not safe at all. i understand planes can go on 1 engine but that just doesnt look right.

hkgspotter1 · Sat Mar 16, 2002 11:31 pm

Glad to say that when N625PL flew for Air Hong Kong I never saw anything like this !!

dripstick · Sat Mar 16, 2002 11:32 pm

I don't know enough about engines and pylons to say if that gap in number 3's pylon is normal, but I've searched through the database for simialr pics and can't find any.

Maybe someone on the Tech/Ops forum would enlighten us.

gkirk · Sat Mar 16, 2002 11:44 pm

It does have 4 engines....just that one of them is in the Cabin! Big grin

Theiler · Sun Mar 17, 2002 12:24 am

Oscoda is in Northern Lower Michigan (I presume that is the "Oscoda" they are talking about). The former Wursmith Air Force base is located there. It's about 130 miles north/northeast of Saginaw.

Pretty long flight with three windmills...

FDXmech · Sun Mar 17, 2002 1:22 am

Hello Dripstick

If you're referring to the gap in #4 engine, this slot allows the thrust reverser sleeve to slide aft during thrust reverser deployment.

dripstick · Sun Mar 17, 2002 1:27 am

Thanks FDXmech, yes number 4, not 3.

D'Oh! Guess I should look closer at the pic next time.

Thanks for the info.

lmml 14/32 · Sun Mar 17, 2002 2:12 am

How long is the runway at Ostend? I never thought 747's could land there. Was this plane loaded with pax? Looks like that landing was hardly a grease !!

PW100 · Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:20 am

Holy cow!! Now this gives new meaning to captains transmission to ATC: "Center: We like to declare an emergency, we just lost an engine...".

Seen five engines under a 747, but only three...
Anyway, if the engine is inoperative for the complete [ferry] flight, why don't just get rid of it... It's only ballast and drag, no use carring it around. Won't be too much of a problem to trim a 747 with one engine missing, especially if its the inboard engine. Several 737 landed safely with an engine fallen off the aircraft...
Lift off might be somewhat of an experiance considering untrimmed rolling moment though...

PW100

solnabo · Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:57 am

:-l:l (N)
Over my dead body!!!!!
Whatkinda people would fly in that steelcoffin.
The 4th engine looks like its gonna fly on its
own way.......*Jeeezuz*

VgnAtl747 · Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:42 am

Well, I guess the question is how much would you ask to be paid to fly on one of that airline's aircraft.

Answer:
About $19,000,000,000.00 (US Dollar)

vc10 · Sun Mar 17, 2002 6:01 am

All 4 engined aircraft can get clearance to 3-engine ferry aircraft normally to the nearest base where repairs can be carried out. Only the minimum crew can be on board and stringent extra preflight checks have to be carried out. I must say it is more normal to do a 3-engine ferry with all 4 engines attached even if only 3 are working.
This picture jogged my memory and I found a picture in my Lockheed Constellation book of a Pan Am
Constellation 049 back in the late 1940's .It's No 4 engine caught fire in flight and eventually dropped off,and after the aircraft had landed it was decided to remove the rest of the nacelle an fair in the wing. The aircraft was then flown back to Lockheed's factory on the west coast for repairs. I would have included the picture but being an old hydraulic and engine oil man I am not that clever with these electronic things [Sorry]

Regards little vc10

filejw · Sun Mar 17, 2002 6:06 am

3 eng on 4 eng a/c and 2 eng on 3 eng a/c are legal with a ferry permit from the FAA.JW

CVG777 · Sun Mar 17, 2002 6:09 am

Wow...

ExitRow · Sun Mar 17, 2002 6:47 am

This looks to me like the airline version of the guy driving his car around with duct-taped plastic over a missing rear window because he's too cheap to replace the glass right away.

No, I wouldn't be comfortable booking a reservation on this airline.

I would, however, walk up to the plane and with my finger write "WASH ME" somewhere on it...

Any wagers on if this plane has all its tires?

ER

UPS763 · Sun Mar 17, 2002 7:14 am

Can anyone shed some light on the gap between #4 and the pylon? At least they found the crack in the #3 pylon before it was too late.

Matt

AAgent · Sun Mar 17, 2002 7:22 am

What airline was this again? "Hoopty Airways", perhaps.

All in good fun,
AAgent

exnonrev · Sun Mar 17, 2002 8:02 am

TechRep's post reminds me of something an A&P friend of mine once told me about Kalitta's operation. If the Kalitta family maintained their drag race cars the same way they maintain their aircraft, the NHRA would disqualify them for safety reasons.

At least they had plenty of room to land. Wurtsmith is an old SAC base which means 12,000+ ft of runway.

eE-Kay · Sun Mar 17, 2002 8:12 am

OH MY GOD!

Reading this thread is very funny!?

Guest · Sun Mar 17, 2002 8:12 am

That airplane is a pure mess.

heavymetal · Sun Mar 17, 2002 8:33 am

I've toured Oscoda, the former Wurtsmith. It's a proverbial junkyard of planes being stripped...I remember a few ex Eastern 727s and a coupla ex-British Airways Tristars left to rot in the cold north wind.

Most Kalitta aircraft I've seen there are in various stages of neglect, even the flyable ones. The outfit is cheap, plain and simple....witness the lack of even the miserable American International livery on this poor beast. Kalitta buys em cheap, wears whats left of them out and junks em.

This picture doesn't surprise me. Obviously it works....just seems to be too many unknown variables involved. It be interesting to see what a Boeing engineer would say about this.

cedarjet · Sun Mar 17, 2002 8:39 am

"That airplane is a pure mess", "I wouldn't fly with that airline" etc etc. I don't know anything about the airline's reputation but I've never heard anything bad about them and there is nothing unsafe about an engine-out ferry flight on a quad or a trijet. It's a regular occurance. I think it'd be an interesting experience to ride in the jumpseat on such a flight. I know there has been one accident on an engine-out ferry where the pilot lost directional control on take-off at night due to spatial disorientation. On the other hand an Eastern L1011 was performing a two-engine ferry from Mexico City back to the US and lost a second engine just after liftoff (Mexico City is notorious for it's 'hot and high' conditions). The aircraft never got above 400 ft agl but managed to complete a circuit and landed safely.

There is nothing remotely unsafe about an engine-out ferry flight, especially on a quad. Unusual to remove the actual engine but clearly in this case the problem was with the pylon not the engine.

Guest · Sun Mar 17, 2002 8:50 am

I wasn't just talking about the engine being off when I said the plane was a pure mess (eventhough that's a factor), I was also referring to the conditions of the aircraft, ie...rust, carrosion, ect...that plane just doesn't look very well kept. There are indeed bad comments about this airline written right here in this thread by people who do know something about this airline (Heavymetal and TechRep), and based on what I see above and the comments written here, I wouldn't touch this airline with a ten foot pole.

yyz717 · Sun Mar 17, 2002 9:01 am

Are you sure it's not just a typical flight on a PIA 742? hehehe

heavymetal · Sun Mar 17, 2002 9:09 am

Let me qualify. When I said 'neglect' I meant cleanliness, appearence, and, having spent a lot of time in the area because my folks have a home up there, how often they're actually used. As I understand it Willow Run is Kalitta's main base. Oscodo is simply maintenance. It would follow that at least a few of the planes would look a bit shabby before they're fixed.

By neglect I clearly can't mean their airworthiness...I simply don't know. The filthiest antique in the sky works perfectly if it meets all the requirements.

FDXmech · Sun Mar 17, 2002 9:12 am

Ups 763

The gap is a slot designed to allow the thrust reverser sleeve to translate aft into the pylon when the thrust reversers are deployed.

jhooper · Sun Mar 17, 2002 9:49 am

Sometimes they can't find the duck tape to secure the engine to the pylon, so sometimes they have to fly without an engine. Just kidding....

Seriously, though, you can visit http://www.landings.com and look up the appropriate regulations to determine rules for ferry flights.

PSU.DTW.SCE · Sun Mar 17, 2002 10:43 am

Oscoda, MI (OSC) has a rather large airfield from its Air Force base days.

The main runway is 11800 x 300 ft. They had a huge fleet of B-52's & KC-135's based here at one time.

UPS763 · Sun Mar 17, 2002 12:02 pm

Thanks FDXmech!

Matt

iaflyer · Sun Mar 17, 2002 2:20 pm

tend to look a little rough - why?

they aren't washed, like most airliners are. The flying public wouldn't be as happy with a dirty airliner as they would a clean one. Image. Plain and simple.

Cargo airplanes are there to make money - plain and simple. So, keeping it looking nice isn't a priority.

That said, some cargo airlines do carry the lack of attention to detail thru to the mx side of the operation.

I know that for a three engine ferry, the fuel burn is adjusted by the flight planning software to compensate for the lack of a fourth engine and whatever drag is added too.

iaflyer

jon01 · Sun Mar 17, 2002 6:19 pm

Here is some info on this flight from my friend, the Chief Pilot of Kalitta Air:

The maintenance ferry flight itself was conducted on April 26, 1997 from
PHNL to KOSC. The aircraft was N625PL (now N709CK), a B-747-132F, s/n
20247, fuselage number 159. It was 10.3 hours enroute. An inspection in Honolulu discovered a crack in the engine mounting and they had no spares there. The company worked with Boeing and the FAA to issue a ferry permit to fly to their heavy maintenance facility in this configuration. The flight took about 9 hours and was operated at an altitude of 29,000 feet and about M0.70.

The only other time I am aware of this being done was in the early 80's, Flying Tigers flew one from JFK to LAX with an engine removed.

Regards,

Jonathan S

Alaskaairlines · Mon Mar 18, 2002 5:38 am

I would never be on a a/c with a missing engine!

-Dmitry

kl713 · Mon Mar 18, 2002 5:58 am

aerosol · Mon Mar 18, 2002 6:04 am

Is thrust reverser deployed only at two engines during landing?

DC10GUY · Mon Mar 18, 2002 9:57 am

GREAT PIC !!! freight dogs rule .... This type of flight is the kind that cause's a close bond between pilot and mechanic .... Kalittla, Zantop, TCA, all the YIP cargo airlines are one-of-a-kind. I worked @ Zantop from 1977-1980, its was a lot of fun ....

Boeing727 · Mon Mar 18, 2002 10:21 am

This happens ALL the time guys...

Click for large version

CX Flyboy · Mon Mar 18, 2002 10:22 am

It's not unusual to see 4 engines aircraft on the ground missing an engine, but flying is much more rare.

YoungDon · Mon Mar 18, 2002 1:21 pm

Simply put, THAT IS NOT COOL... it might be "safe", but really, how many of us would be comfortable piloting that monster, especially over about five hours of water. No, no, no...

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