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by738
Posts: 3105
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:59 am

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:23 am

Ryga wrote:
by738 wrote:
TUI is only offering VRA - Not Cayo Coco

RoutesOnline must be incorrect
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... te-in-s20/
 
Scottiedog
Posts: 289
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:11 pm

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:21 am

November statistics are now out.

Allowing for the loss of Thomas Cook it is not too surprising that numbers are down and, in my opinion a reduction of less than 28,000 is pretty tame.

Image
 
Mullion
Posts: 69
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:20 pm

I can see those figures being clawed back quite quickly as we progress into the new year, Bangadesh start in 4 weeks and should add 5000 plus
 
SeanM1997
Posts: 422
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:27 pm

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:24 pm

Jet2 adds Lisbon from 2 April 2020 - 2x weekly flights

https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/12 ... 29248?s=19
 
StdTank80002
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:42 am

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:05 pm

Phone won't play ball and link the relevant BBC articles but loganair are cancelling the routes to Norwich and Derry. Derry blamed on a lack of demand but the Norwich route includes closure of the Norwich base blamed on lack of demand on the Norwich - Manchester route.
 
8herveg
Posts: 1488
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:01 am

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:00 am

StdTank80002 wrote:
Phone won't play ball and link the relevant BBC articles but loganair are cancelling the routes to Norwich and Derry. Derry blamed on a lack of demand but the Norwich route includes closure of the Norwich base blamed on lack of demand on the Norwich - Manchester route.


I reckon both routes will be picked up by Virgin Connect. Makes no sense for Loganair to operate these in my opinion since it’s a Scottish airline operating outside of Scotland at both ends and no opportunities for connections at MAN I’m guessing? Whereas BE will with the new ‘hub’.
 
Onlyturnright
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:55 pm

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:54 am

8herveg wrote:
StdTank80002 wrote:
Phone won't play ball and link the relevant BBC articles but loganair are cancelling the routes to Norwich and Derry. Derry blamed on a lack of demand but the Norwich route includes closure of the Norwich base blamed on lack of demand on the Norwich - Manchester route.


I reckon both routes will be picked up by Virgin Connect. Makes no sense for Loganair to operate these in my opinion since it’s a Scottish airline operating outside of Scotland at both ends and no opportunities for connections at MAN I’m guessing? Whereas BE will with the new ‘hub’.


Am I mistaken or did BE previously operate Norwich with a Saab 2000? If so when did they suspend that?
 
8herveg
Posts: 1488
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:01 am

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:20 am

Onlyturnright wrote:
8herveg wrote:
StdTank80002 wrote:
Phone won't play ball and link the relevant BBC articles but loganair are cancelling the routes to Norwich and Derry. Derry blamed on a lack of demand but the Norwich route includes closure of the Norwich base blamed on lack of demand on the Norwich - Manchester route.


I reckon both routes will be picked up by Virgin Connect. Makes no sense for Loganair to operate these in my opinion since it’s a Scottish airline operating outside of Scotland at both ends and no opportunities for connections at MAN I’m guessing? Whereas BE will with the new ‘hub’.


Am I mistaken or did BE previously operate Norwich with a Saab 2000? If so when did they suspend that?


Not sure of the aircraft, but BE definitely operated the route. Not sure why it stopped, but Flybe no longer operate from NWI. Was it ever a base? Maybe that's why.

I think the route could be operated by a MAN based aircraft though.
 
LZBTW
Posts: 4
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:24 am

Scottiedog wrote:
Okay, are you sitting comfortably? The start of S20 report is now available. Please remember that all applications and other information is subject to change and therefore must be taken with a pinch of salt at this stage.

Passengers - +12.1%
Movements - +9.2%

Adria Arways - Cancelled
Air Arabia Maroc - Cancelled
Air Malta - Increase from 1 to 2 per week
Air Baltic - New 4 times weekly service to Riga with A220-300
Alitalia - Once again have applied for slots to Milan Linate on a daily basis with an A320
American Airlines - Philadelphia stays at daily. B767-300 for the summer, replaces B787-8 between January-March
Austrian - Changes from EM190 to A319 on daily Vienna
Biman Bangladesh - New service, as previously announced 3 times per week from 5th January and increasing to 4 per week for S20
Cathay - Daily A350-1000 for the summer
Corendon Airlines - Daily Antalya service plus 9 per week to Bodrum. Both with B737-800
Delta - return between 22nd May-8th September to Boston with B757-200
easyJet - reported to be increasing by 4 aircraft from 17 to 21, but more likely to be 19 due to terminal capacity
Fly Ernest - Cancelled
Flybe - New daily Stuttgart and an unknown domestic destination. The previously announced reduction in services results in a 3% loss of capacity
FlyEgypt - 4 times weekly B737-800 charter service to Hurghada
Freebird - proposed A320 service 8 times per week to Antalya and Dalaman
Iberia Express - Increase from 4 to 5 per week
Icelandair- Up from 7 to 8 per week with an extra evening flight on Sunday
Indigo - Although no wide-bodied aircraft they have applied for daily services to both Mumbai and Delhi
Jet2 - Based aircraft increase from 19 to 24. Also a B737-800 changes to B757 and a B757 to A300-200
Juneyao - As already announced today a new service to Shanghai with a B787-9 3 times per week via Helsinki
Loganair - Norwich returns from 2 to 3 per day plus extra Stornaway
LOT Polish Airlines - Planned 2 x daily to Warsaw with EMB190
Lufthansa - Planned increase on Munich from 3 to 4 per day
Norwegian - Continues twice weekly to Bergen from W19
Pakistan International - New service to Sialkot once per week with B777-300. Islamabad increases to daily and Lahore stays at twice weekly - all B777-300
Qatar Airways - B777-300 on both morning and lunchtime service with B787-8 in the evening
Ryanair - 1 extra based aircraft plus additional non-based flights. Approximately 23% passenger increase against S19
Scandinavian Airlines - Stavanger continues from W19. Stockholm increases from 2 to 3 daily and Bergen increases from 2 to 3 per week
Smartlynx - Propose to base 2 A321 aircraft for 28 weekly charters
TAP - Increase Lisbon from 13 to 14 per week
Thai International - Proposed Bangkok service from July with A350-900. Slots held for daily service but likely to be 4 per week
Transavia France - Possible twice weekly Orly flight with B737-800
TUI - Increase based aircraft from 14 to 19
Turkish - Change of aircraft type.A330-300 on 7 flights per day with the rest on A321
Virgin Atlantic- Based aircraft up from 6 to 7. Some additional slots held to unspecified destinations


Have there been any more news on which of these extra services will materialise? FI is still showing as 7 weekly on their website. Also there has been no official news of LOT, Thai or Alitalia starting and Summer 2020 starts in just over three and a half months, so not much time to advertise and sell tickets. Easyjet also haven't announced any new routes or frequencies if they are to have 4 more airplanes based at Manchester. To be honest, with TC gone I don't think T1 capacity is as much of a limiting factor. Also MAG announced that the new extension of T2 and the bus pier are still on track to open next summer, so are there any rumours as to which airlines will be moving to T2 (apart from Jet2)?
 
8herveg
Posts: 1488
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:01 am

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:51 pm

I can see Virgin Connect operating the following domestic routes from MAN next year. Not too dissimilar to where they currently fly/have flown before:

Aberdeen
Belfast City
Derry
Edinburgh
Exeter
Glasgow
Guernsey
Inverness
Isle of Man
Jersey
London Southend
Newquay
Norwich
Southampton
 
Scottiedog
Posts: 289
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:11 pm

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:10 pm

LZBTW wrote:
Scottiedog wrote:
Okay, are you sitting comfortably? The start of S20 report is now available. Please remember that all applications and other information is subject to change and therefore must be taken with a pinch of salt at this stage.

Passengers - +12.1%
Movements - +9.2%

Adria Arways - Cancelled
Air Arabia Maroc - Cancelled
Air Malta - Increase from 1 to 2 per week
Air Baltic - New 4 times weekly service to Riga with A220-300
Alitalia - Once again have applied for slots to Milan Linate on a daily basis with an A320
American Airlines - Philadelphia stays at daily. B767-300 for the summer, replaces B787-8 between January-March
Austrian - Changes from EM190 to A319 on daily Vienna
Biman Bangladesh - New service, as previously announced 3 times per week from 5th January and increasing to 4 per week for S20
Cathay - Daily A350-1000 for the summer
Corendon Airlines - Daily Antalya service plus 9 per week to Bodrum. Both with B737-800
Delta - return between 22nd May-8th September to Boston with B757-200
easyJet - reported to be increasing by 4 aircraft from 17 to 21, but more likely to be 19 due to terminal capacity
Fly Ernest - Cancelled
Flybe - New daily Stuttgart and an unknown domestic destination. The previously announced reduction in services results in a 3% loss of capacity
FlyEgypt - 4 times weekly B737-800 charter service to Hurghada
Freebird - proposed A320 service 8 times per week to Antalya and Dalaman
Iberia Express - Increase from 4 to 5 per week
Icelandair- Up from 7 to 8 per week with an extra evening flight on Sunday
Indigo - Although no wide-bodied aircraft they have applied for daily services to both Mumbai and Delhi
Jet2 - Based aircraft increase from 19 to 24. Also a B737-800 changes to B757 and a B757 to A300-200
Juneyao - As already announced today a new service to Shanghai with a B787-9 3 times per week via Helsinki
Loganair - Norwich returns from 2 to 3 per day plus extra Stornaway
LOT Polish Airlines - Planned 2 x daily to Warsaw with EMB190
Lufthansa - Planned increase on Munich from 3 to 4 per day
Norwegian - Continues twice weekly to Bergen from W19
Pakistan International - New service to Sialkot once per week with B777-300. Islamabad increases to daily and Lahore stays at twice weekly - all B777-300
Qatar Airways - B777-300 on both morning and lunchtime service with B787-8 in the evening
Ryanair - 1 extra based aircraft plus additional non-based flights. Approximately 23% passenger increase against S19
Scandinavian Airlines - Stavanger continues from W19. Stockholm increases from 2 to 3 daily and Bergen increases from 2 to 3 per week
Smartlynx - Propose to base 2 A321 aircraft for 28 weekly charters
TAP - Increase Lisbon from 13 to 14 per week
Thai International - Proposed Bangkok service from July with A350-900. Slots held for daily service but likely to be 4 per week
Transavia France - Possible twice weekly Orly flight with B737-800
TUI - Increase based aircraft from 14 to 19
Turkish - Change of aircraft type.A330-300 on 7 flights per day with the rest on A321
Virgin Atlantic- Based aircraft up from 6 to 7. Some additional slots held to unspecified destinations


Have there been any more news on which of these extra services will materialise? FI is still showing as 7 weekly on their website. Also there has been no official news of LOT, Thai or Alitalia starting and Summer 2020 starts in just over three and a half months, so not much time to advertise and sell tickets. Easyjet also haven't announced any new routes or frequencies if they are to have 4 more airplanes based at Manchester. To be honest, with TC gone I don't think T1 capacity is as much of a limiting factor. Also MAG announced that the new extension of T2 and the bus pier are still on track to open next summer, so are there any rumours as to which airlines will be moving to T2 (apart from Jet2)?


I know that things change. When I started in the travel industry S20 schedules were hardly ever released until the start of the year. Now people are wanting to see schedules announced up to 18 months in advance.
It is still fairly early for the European carriers to commit to S20. I believe that the long-haul plans should be nearly at the announcement stage. Any update if interest I'll try to post on here.
 
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TS-IOR
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:36 pm

ACL initial coordination report for S20 is a bit confusing. The table shows 4 pairs granted for Nouvelair meaning two weekly flights, but the significant route changes table mentions 4 weekly A320 to NBE as follows: Proposed new four per week NBE May-Oct with A320, Wed, Fri, Sat & Sun. T1 allocated.
 
Scottiedog
Posts: 289
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:11 pm

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:18 am

TS-IOR wrote:
ACL initial coordination report for S20 is a bit confusing. The table shows 4 pairs granted for Nouvelair meaning two weekly flights, but the significant route changes table mentions 4 weekly A320 to NBE as follows: Proposed new four per week NBE May-Oct with A320w, Wed, Fri, Sat & Sun. T1 allocated.


Just to clarify, a pair of slots equals 1 return flight. Therefore 4 pairs is 4 return flights.
 
spud757
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:20 pm

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:02 am

8herveg wrote:
Onlyturnright wrote:
8herveg wrote:

I reckon both routes will be picked up by Virgin Connect. Makes no sense for Loganair to operate these in my opinion since it’s a Scottish airline operating outside of Scotland at both ends and no opportunities for connections at MAN I’m guessing? Whereas BE will with the new ‘hub’.


Am I mistaken or did BE previously operate Norwich with a Saab 2000? If so when did they suspend that?


Not sure of the aircraft, but BE definitely operated the route. Not sure why it stopped, but Flybe no longer operate from NWI. Was it ever a base? Maybe that's why.

I think the route could be operated by a MAN based aircraft though.


Was this not a BE franchise route, operated by LM, before LM ended their franchise, taking over the NWI-MAN route under their own brand?
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8371
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:07 am

spud757 wrote:
8herveg wrote:
Onlyturnright wrote:

Am I mistaken or did BE previously operate Norwich with a Saab 2000? If so when did they suspend that?


Not sure of the aircraft, but BE definitely operated the route. Not sure why it stopped, but Flybe no longer operate from NWI. Was it ever a base? Maybe that's why.

I think the route could be operated by a MAN based aircraft though.


Was this not a BE franchise route, operated by LM, before LM ended their franchise, taking over the NWI-MAN route under their own brand?


Before that it was a BE operated flight with Q400s. But yes, BE metal was replaced by the LM franchise agreement before becoming LM marketed when that agreement ended.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
DobboDobbo
Topic Author
Posts: 1127
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:42 am

There is chatter elsewhere that VS are expanding their offering at MAN in W21. A fuller explanation is in the link below, but for example:

JFK increases from 4x weekly to daily, and there is evidence it will increase to 12x weekly.

ATL increases from 3x weekly to 6x weekly (I still think this should be daily).

MCO is 13x weekly.

LAS and LAX appear to be continuing year round at 2x weekly each.

No info as yet on whether DL will operate BOS year round (likely something to keep an eye on).

I suspect much of this is facilitated by the A339 starting to come online at that point.



Credit: @airportnewsMAN

https://airportrumours.blogspot.com/201 ... s.html?m=1
 
8herveg
Posts: 1488
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:01 am

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:21 am

DobboDobbo wrote:
There is chatter elsewhere that VS are expanding their offering at MAN in W21. A fuller explanation is in the link below, but for example:

JFK increases from 4x weekly to daily, and there is evidence it will increase to 12x weekly.

ATL increases from 3x weekly to 6x weekly (I still think this should be daily).

MCO is 13x weekly.

LAS and LAX appear to be continuing year round at 2x weekly each.

No info as yet on whether DL will operate BOS year round (likely something to keep an eye on).

I suspect much of this is facilitated by the A339 starting to come online at that point.



Credit: @airportnewsMAN

https://airportrumours.blogspot.com/201 ... s.html?m=1


Sounds promising. Assume you mean W20, not W21?

I wonder if VS split the JFK ops to be flown by both VS and DL aircraft? Also, it states that the 5 x weekly MAN-JFK flight will operate at 13:50. But this is only 1 hour after the first flight (which leaves at 12:45). Surely it would be better to spread them out more?
 
jubaexpress
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 10:51 am

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:45 am

8herveg wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
There is chatter elsewhere that VS are expanding their offering at MAN in W21. A fuller explanation is in the link below, but for example:

JFK increases from 4x weekly to daily, and there is evidence it will increase to 12x weekly.

ATL increases from 3x weekly to 6x weekly (I still think this should be daily).

MCO is 13x weekly.

LAS and LAX appear to be continuing year round at 2x weekly each.

No info as yet on whether DL will operate BOS year round (likely something to keep an eye on).

I suspect much of this is facilitated by the A339 starting to come online at that point.



Credit: @airportnewsMAN

https://airportrumours.blogspot.com/201 ... s.html?m=1


Sounds promising. Assume you mean W20, not W21?

I wonder if VS split the JFK ops to be flown by both VS and DL aircraft? Also, it states that the 5 x weekly MAN-JFK flight will operate at 13:50. But this is only 1 hour after the first flight (which leaves at 12:45). Surely it would be better to spread them out more?


If this 5 weekly service second service comes to pass, it's not a huge surprise that it's not long after the first one. It probably connects well onto flights to Florida, and is still a nice arrival time into New York if you're visiting the city.
 
jubaexpress
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 10:51 am

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:47 am

Duplicate post.
 
8herveg
Posts: 1488
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:01 am

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:50 am

jubaexpress wrote:
8herveg wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
There is chatter elsewhere that VS are expanding their offering at MAN in W21. A fuller explanation is in the link below, but for example:

JFK increases from 4x weekly to daily, and there is evidence it will increase to 12x weekly.

ATL increases from 3x weekly to 6x weekly (I still think this should be daily).

MCO is 13x weekly.

LAS and LAX appear to be continuing year round at 2x weekly each.

No info as yet on whether DL will operate BOS year round (likely something to keep an eye on).

I suspect much of this is facilitated by the A339 starting to come online at that point.



Credit: @airportnewsMAN

https://airportrumours.blogspot.com/201 ... s.html?m=1


Sounds promising. Assume you mean W20, not W21?

I wonder if VS split the JFK ops to be flown by both VS and DL aircraft? Also, it states that the 5 x weekly MAN-JFK flight will operate at 13:50. But this is only 1 hour after the first flight (which leaves at 12:45). Surely it would be better to spread them out more?


If this 5 weekly service second service comes to pass, it's not a huge surprise that it's not long after the first one. It probably connects well onto flights to Florida, and is still a nice arrival time into New York if you're visiting the city.


So this flight is really about offering more capacity for the same sort of connections (to Florida), rather than flexibility for (business) passengers, do you think?
 
jubaexpress
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 10:51 am

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:02 pm

8herveg wrote:
jubaexpress wrote:
8herveg wrote:

Sounds promising. Assume you mean W20, not W21?

I wonder if VS split the JFK ops to be flown by both VS and DL aircraft? Also, it states that the 5 x weekly MAN-JFK flight will operate at 13:50. But this is only 1 hour after the first flight (which leaves at 12:45). Surely it would be better to spread them out more?


If this 5 weekly service second service comes to pass, it's not a huge surprise that it's not long after the first one. It probably connects well onto flights to Florida, and is still a nice arrival time into New York if you're visiting the city.


So this flight is really about offering more capacity for the same sort of connections (to Florida), rather than flexibility for (business) passengers, do you think?


Of course. They know what their market is. This is a terrible flight for anyone travelling on business, of which there are not many and for whom there are better options. There is not the demand to sustain it.
 
8herveg
Posts: 1488
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:01 am

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:11 pm

jubaexpress wrote:
8herveg wrote:
jubaexpress wrote:

If this 5 weekly service second service comes to pass, it's not a huge surprise that it's not long after the first one. It probably connects well onto flights to Florida, and is still a nice arrival time into New York if you're visiting the city.


So this flight is really about offering more capacity for the same sort of connections (to Florida), rather than flexibility for (business) passengers, do you think?


Of course. They know what their market is. This is a terrible flight for anyone travelling on business, of which there are not many and for whom there are better options. There is not the demand to sustain it.


Thanks. Good to know. Even so though, you'd think they'd spread the departure times by at least 2-3 hours to give passengers (whether that be the few biz pax or leisure pax) some options.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1403
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:17 pm

Don't forget that this extra frequency (if true) also goes towards replacing the lost capacity from Thomas Cook's demise, though the connection opportunities provides more options than before and particularly for those who may be travelling towards the UK who get in to JFK with insufficient time to connect onto the VS128.

A 1350 departure from MAN would probably get into JFK between 1600-1700 local time depending on journey time. For those heading into Manhattan, once you've cleared immigration, collected bags and depending on your choice of transportation and traffic you're probably looking at an arrival time into Manhattan between 1800-1900 or closer to 2000 local time. Personally I preferred the mid-morning departures as you arrived into JFK around 1300ish and you still had late-afternoon and early/mid-evening in Manhattan before tiredness/jet lag kicks in. I appreciate though that not everyone who flies MAN-JFK has New York City as their final destination.

Each to their own though.
 
jubaexpress
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 10:51 am

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:34 pm

8herveg wrote:
jubaexpress wrote:
8herveg wrote:

So this flight is really about offering more capacity for the same sort of connections (to Florida), rather than flexibility for (business) passengers, do you think?


Of course. They know what their market is. This is a terrible flight for anyone travelling on business, of which there are not many and for whom there are better options. There is not the demand to sustain it.


Thanks. Good to know. Even so though, you'd think they'd spread the departure times by at least 2-3 hours to give passengers (whether that be the few biz pax or leisure pax) some options.

But by spreading you're assuming that there's a distribution in the population who would travel if the flight was at a different time and that this distribution is affected by nothing else. It's just doesn't appear to be true, otherwise they would spread it to hit different customers who would presumably pay more. The demand is there to fill that plane at that time either because it connects well to Florida or its helpful for the city breakers and they know the market well enough to know to cluster at this time.
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2717
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:25 pm

jubaexpress wrote:
8herveg wrote:
jubaexpress wrote:

Of course. They know what their market is. This is a terrible flight for anyone travelling on business, of which there are not many and for whom there are better options. There is not the demand to sustain it.


Thanks. Good to know. Even so though, you'd think they'd spread the departure times by at least 2-3 hours to give passengers (whether that be the few biz pax or leisure pax) some options.

But by spreading you're assuming that there's a distribution in the population who would travel if the flight was at a different time and that this distribution is affected by nothing else. It's just doesn't appear to be true, otherwise they would spread it to hit different customers who would presumably pay more. The demand is there to fill that plane at that time either because it connects well to Florida or its helpful for the city breakers and they know the market well enough to know to cluster at this time.


There is some argument for frequency when different timings provide useful options to the passenger. For the ME airlines timings do make a difference, because connections from UK/Ireland to Asia and Australasia only work well in one direction for each bank. I'm not convinced that for westbound transatlantic crossings frequency or timings makes much difference. Aircraft types aren't mentioned, but I can't imagine VS are really going to operate the 747 12 weekly to JFK over the winter? Thats an enormous number of Economy seats, yield would likely be horrible? The A332 seems to be operating JFK-LGW. What do VS currently have based at MAN? 3x 332, 1x 333 and 2x 747?
 
jubaexpress
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 10:51 am

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:20 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
jubaexpress wrote:
8herveg wrote:

Thanks. Good to know. Even so though, you'd think they'd spread the departure times by at least 2-3 hours to give passengers (whether that be the few biz pax or leisure pax) some options.

But by spreading you're assuming that there's a distribution in the population who would travel if the flight was at a different time and that this distribution is affected by nothing else. It's just doesn't appear to be true, otherwise they would spread it to hit different customers who would presumably pay more. The demand is there to fill that plane at that time either because it connects well to Florida or its helpful for the city breakers and they know the market well enough to know to cluster at this time.


There is some argument for frequency when different timings provide useful options to the passenger. For the ME airlines timings do make a difference, because connections from UK/Ireland to Asia and Australasia only work well in one direction for each bank. I'm not convinced that for westbound transatlantic crossings frequency or timings makes much difference. Aircraft types aren't mentioned, but I can't imagine VS are really going to operate the 747 12 weekly to JFK over the winter? Thats an enormous number of Economy seats, yield would likely be horrible? The A332 seems to be operating JFK-LGW. What do VS currently have based at MAN? 3x 332, 1x 333 and 2x 747?


I agree to an extent that in some markets with a very diverse customer base and destination range, a spread can be useful. You cite Emirates or the other Middle East hub giants; they have such a range of destinations that it's not targeting the same people - those connecting to the Johannesburg flight will need to arrive at DXB at a different time to the Hong Kong connectors (illustrative purposes only). My broad contention would be the distribution remains similar, but you're talking about a different set of people going to different places.

Or in the case of a large metro area like London with a diversity of travellers, a spread of New York flights makes sense (suiting the needs of the finance traffic etc).

But, in the case of New York it appears to be funnelling a bit to Florida and to the city.
 
User001
Posts: 1079
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:18 pm

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:30 pm

But VS are increasing MCO also. If the JFK was all about funnelling to Florida, then VS would just add even more capacity to Orlando. Why offer a stop when you can just take the pax to their final destination, not like VS doesn't serve MCO now, is it.
 
8herveg
Posts: 1488
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:01 am

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:37 pm

User001 wrote:
But VS are increasing MCO also. If the JFK was all about funnelling to Florida, then VS would just add even more capacity to Orlando. Why offer a stop when you can just take the pax to their final destination, not like VS doesn't serve MCO now, is it.


Very true. I didn't think of that. Unless of course it's referring to other airports in Florida such as Miami and Tampa?
 
DobboDobbo
Topic Author
Posts: 1127
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:43 pm

jubaexpress wrote:
Of course. They know what their market is. This is a terrible flight for anyone travelling on business, of which there are not many and for whom there are better options. There is not the demand to sustain it.


I think that this is 4x weekly B774 being replaced by 7 - 12x weekly A330.

This means that it is replacing 112 two way business class seats per week (based on a daily B744) with between 456 and 744 per week (depending on the mix of A333 and A332 being used).

It is also replacing 3,000 economy seats with between 4,440 and 5,088.

This tells me that if anything the route had a significant shortage of business class capacity on the route.
 
jubaexpress
Posts: 121
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:03 pm

User001 wrote:
But VS are increasing MCO also. If the JFK was all about funnelling to Florida, then VS would just add even more capacity to Orlando. Why offer a stop when you can just take the pax to their final destination, not like VS doesn't serve MCO now, is it.


There's a lot of Florida that isn't Orlando.

Also I didn't say the flight was just Florida, but those with connections are likely to be to that neck of the woods.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:02 pm

8herveg wrote:
User001 wrote:
But VS are increasing MCO also. If the JFK was all about funnelling to Florida, then VS would just add even more capacity to Orlando. Why offer a stop when you can just take the pax to their final destination, not like VS doesn't serve MCO now, is it.


Very true. I didn't think of that. Unless of course it's referring to other airports in Florida such as Miami and Tampa?


I really doubt the JFK flights have much to do with Florida. As pointed out VS already send the 747 to MCO twice daily. Arguably ATL is a better choice than JFK for getting to Florida, the risk of misconnect is lower with better weather in the winter, shorter taxi and hold times, which can be over an hour at JFK on a good day and massive frequency from ATL to all sorts of places in Florida I've never even herd of.

Either flavour of A330 is a more suitable size and layout for JFK - the remaining 747s have a very small premium cabin and a huge number of economy seats. Thats not great over the North Atlantic in winter, where fares are usually very low anyway. If they were to put the 747 on JFK 12 weekly they would be carrying a lot of empty seats, or cheap fares. Neither are ideal.
 
jubaexpress
Posts: 121
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:44 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
8herveg wrote:
User001 wrote:
But VS are increasing MCO also. If the JFK was all about funnelling to Florida, then VS would just add even more capacity to Orlando. Why offer a stop when you can just take the pax to their final destination, not like VS doesn't serve MCO now, is it.


Very true. I didn't think of that. Unless of course it's referring to other airports in Florida such as Miami and Tampa?


I really doubt the JFK flights have much to do with Florida. As pointed out VS already send the 747 to MCO twice daily. Arguably ATL is a better choice than JFK for getting to Florida, the risk of misconnect is lower with better weather in the winter, shorter taxi and hold times, which can be over an hour at JFK on a good day and massive frequency from ATL to all sorts of places in Florida I've never even herd of.

Either flavour of A330 is a more suitable size and layout for JFK - the remaining 747s have a very small premium cabin and a huge number of economy seats. Thats not great over the North Atlantic in winter, where fares are usually very low anyway. If they were to put the 747 on JFK 12 weekly they would be carrying a lot of empty seats, or cheap fares. Neither are ideal.


There are some very competitive fares from Manchester to various points in Florida via JFK.

If they were serious about connections, they would have greater capacity to Atlanta. It's city break and leisure traffic heading south. Which is where this started: there's no point spreading out the flights when you know where people are going, where they're connecting to and the time and price elasticities.
 
SueD
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:35 pm

Why the fascination with Florida via JFK ?

DELTA Presence is pretty weak from JFK to the swamps period Manchester has more capacity on a daily basis to Orlando than the The Apple !

A daily Tampa a summer Key west and a couple of Fort Lauderdale flights

Boondocks and Picksville and you go via ATLANTA that’s how the hubs function period stop

JFK is mainly O&D with feed from the North East
 
SueD
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:37 pm

Competitive fares via JFK are synonymous with how weak they actually are in the market !

Classic fare dumping on the consolidators
 
jubaexpress
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:53 pm

SueD wrote:
Why the fascination with Florida via JFK ?

DELTA Presence is pretty weak from JFK to the swamps period Manchester has more capacity on a daily basis to Orlando than the The Apple !

A daily Tampa a summer Key west and a couple of Fort Lauderdale flights

Boondocks and Picksville and you go via ATLANTA that’s how the hubs function period stop

JFK is mainly O&D with feed from the North East


Because that's where people go....
 
SueD
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:44 pm

But its NOT the consolidators are fare dumping - These fares are far from the normal baseline . Indeed try booking one and find the final fare on say a Friday back Sunday a week later mid the through peak !

The numbers routing Manchester -JFK - Swamps are a trickle !

Far more get in a car for 4 ½ hours going south on our motorways

USA is far far far far FA****************R more than the swamp And mouseville

By the way if your looking at the consolidators be careful you don’t have to make 45 to 1 hour cab ride for $40 for twelve miles on the what i can safely say is most horrendous road on the planet
 
jubaexpress
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:56 pm

SueD wrote:
But its NOT the consolidators are fare dumping - These fares are far from the normal baseline . Indeed try booking one and find the final fare on say a Friday back Sunday a week later mid the through peak !

The numbers routing Manchester -JFK - Swamps are a trickle !

Far more get in a car for 4 ½ hours going south on our motorways

USA is far far far far FA****************R more than the swamp And mouseville

By the way if your looking at the consolidators be careful you don’t have to make 45 to 1 hour cab ride for $40 for twelve miles on the what i can safely say is most horrendous road on the planet


Never been to Florida, don't intend to change that. My flying takes me to very different places....

The flight price was indicative of what I found on Skyscanner in 2 mins.

This is anyway a diversion - if there were traffic that demanded flights at different times of day at the right price they would provide it. Atlanta is the serious hub and it has very few flights from Manchester indicating the type of traffic...
 
SueD
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:42 pm

Why make such statements in the first place without even understanding the basis of the argument indeed the facts behind it - It just makes you look dumb and i am sure your aren’t.

Atlanta is served daily most of the year and with a 747 — More capacity than many European Capitals cepting the Golders Triangle . Oh and has been connected for even longer than most . Delta has been plying the route for 30 yes 30 years !

Sky scanner are a consolidator on some renown . They are not however how airlines make money - There existence is back fill - That is what consolidators do .

Airlines go broke if they rely one those operators . Oh consolidators can produce some quite obtuse routing airline and fare combinations !
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:51 pm

As already pointed out, ATL is the primary connecting hub to Florida. Of course there will be some connections over JFK, but to try and argue that the increase on MAN-JFK is related to Florida (especially when MAN-ATL was also increased) shows a lack of understanding of Delta's hub structure and traffic flows.

As it is, a 13:50 departure from MAN is pretty horrible for Florida. There are connections departing JFK around 19:30 to MCO/MIA/FLL/TPA which arrive in Florida between 22:30-23:00. That doesn't strike me as a pleasant option.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:59 pm

SueD wrote:

a summer Key West


I would love to see the plane in VS's fleet that can fly MAN-EYW. :lol:

The runway there is VERY short.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
SueD
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:12 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
SueD wrote:

a summer Key West


I would love to see the plane in VS's fleet that can fly MAN-EYW. :lol:

The runway there is VERY short.


The reference was about the connections available ex NYC area by Delta into Florida and the Keys not Man- EYW direct or even that other Manchester somewhere west of Boston (Delta aren’t even particularly well represented even there !) read the thread
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:21 pm

SueD wrote:

The reference was about the connections available ex NYC area by Delta into Florida and the Keys not Man- EYW direct or even that other Manchester somewhere west of Boston (Delta aren’t even particularly well represented even there !) read the thread


Did read the thread, apparently I misinterpreted your statement. Apologies.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
MANMatthew
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:00 pm

What a futile page number 14 has been so far. Bore off.
 
SueD
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:30 pm

Luftymatt Transavia not not about connections or indeed the businessman(women)/ homme or femme d'affaires - No they are pure tourist -you know long romantic weekends one end and shopping/sports our end .

Much like Edinburgh and Dublin tourist tourist oh and holiday maker !

That said your will at least make few internal connections to the Loire Atlantique, Main et Loire, Vendée, Deux-Sèvres, Vienne, Charente-Maritime, Charente, Gironde, Landes and Pyrénées Atlantiques via Orly Est !

Magnifique !
 
Luftymatt
Posts: 544
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:45 pm

SueD wrote:
Luftymatt Transavia not not about connections or indeed the businessman(women)/ homme or femme d'affaires - No they are pure tourist -you know long romantic weekends one end and shopping/sports our end .

Much like Edinburgh and Dublin tourist tourist oh and holiday maker !

That said your will at least make few internal connections to the Loire Atlantique, Main et Loire, Vendée, Deux-Sèvres, Vienne, Charente-Maritime, Charente, Gironde, Landes and Pyrénées Atlantiques via Orly Est !

Magnifique !


SueD certainly the strange schedule backs up what you say, however are their really that many holiday makers bound for Paris that want to go via Orly? It's not an easy task to get into the city from there, and bluntly speaking Orly (and the surrounding areas) are a dump.
chase the sun
 
SueD
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:03 pm

Luftymatt wrote:
SueD wrote:
Luftymatt Transavia not not about connections or indeed the businessman(women)/ homme or femme d'affaires - No they are pure tourist -you know long romantic weekends one end and shopping/sports our end .

Much like Edinburgh and Dublin tourist tourist oh and holiday maker !

That said your will at least make few internal connections to the Loire Atlantique, Main et Loire, Vendée, Deux-Sèvres, Vienne, Charente-Maritime, Charente, Gironde, Landes and Pyrénées Atlantiques via Orly Est !

Magnifique !


SueD certainly the strange schedule backs up what you say, however are their really that many holiday makers bound for Paris that want to go via Orly? It's not an easy task to get into the city from there, and bluntly speaking Orly (and the surrounding areas) are a dump.



Seriously ?

Orly is excellently placed Buses direct to Monparnasse and la Defence ideal for the budget hotels is sight quicker and cheaper than from Roissy I can tell you Added advantage you don’t have to deal with Le Périphérique traffic either .

As to Orly close by being a dump yeah, but so are just about all the Parisian Suburbs and dormitory towns. Plenty are pretty rough to say the least , oh especially out towards mouseland !
 
David_itl
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:32 am

I've manipulated the US DOT' T-100 statistics to produced this route/airline breakdown for our US routes. Bear in mind that these statistics only cover the period January to May

Image

To have had Thomas Cook getting over 90% loads on their routes makes it all the more harder to have had them fail as part of the overall group. Yes, predominantly holiday led but which airline over the Atlantic does not have a decent proportion of passengers taking advantage of a tie-in between an airline and it's holiday division. Find it quite interesting that SFO has considerably more inbound passengers than outbound so it does kind of require a question to be asked if there would be any airline wanting to risk this route as it appears that it may not wholly be reliant on outbound traffic.

It can clearly see where some frequency enhancements can be done by Virgin should they desire and also "rightsizing" aircraft to routes ought to see them getting better seat load factors and potentially boosting the profitability of route but as we know with batch of A339s and A350 due over the coming years, it's a case of wait and see.

American really do seem to be struggling. Quite why they want to cede the transatlantic market to DL/VS and UA baffles me as relying on passengers to route over LHR/DUB when others seem to be of a different mindset.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:32 pm

David_itl wrote:
It can clearly see where some frequency enhancements can be done by Virgin should they desire and also "rightsizing" aircraft to routes ought to see them getting better seat load factors and potentially boosting the profitability of route but as we know with batch of A339s and A350 due over the coming years, it's a case of wait and see.


Agreed. Without going over old ground as to the reasons why they were used on that route, the load factors last winter on ATL confirm that the 747 was far too big for that route.

It'll be interesting to see the load factors of LAS, MCO and JFK (plus United on the EWR route and TUI to SFB) for the same period next year without the presence of Thomas Cook. I expect a number of those passengers will be lost forever, but many of them are there for the taking.

As for AA on MAN-PHL, the use of the 767 is not helping but does anybody know how well the route is doing in terms of Business Class and cargo loadings?
 
Scottiedog
Posts: 289
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:11 pm

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:36 pm

Update #120 from the MANTP Team - to whom full credit is given.

I believe that all reference to taxilane Victor-Bravo is incorrect and should be to Taxilane Juliet

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This last picture is taken from the latest MANTP video and show, at the bottom right, the area in the above slide that will be used as an airside coaching area.
Image
 
mandyhaslott
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:59 pm

Re: Manchester (UK) Thread - 2019

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:21 pm

Scottiedog wrote:
Update #120 from the MANTP Team - to whom full credit is given.

I believe that all reference to taxilane Victor-Bravo is incorrect and should be to Taxilane Juliet

Image

Image

Image

Image
Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

This last picture is taken from the latest MANTP video and show, at the bottom right, the area in the above slide that will be used as an airside coaching area.
Image


Would it be possible to post these updates in a link so whoever is interested can click the link? Then the rest of us won't have to scroll through them. I'm sure a minority on here maybe interested however The updates are so frequent (now on update 120!) and detailed... Is there anyone here really that interested? I think a quarterly update would be more engaging. Let's face it... Is a building site... We get it.

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