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qf789
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Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:45 am

Just announced

Qatar Airways has announced today that as part of their strategy in investing in the strongest airlines around the world they have acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

https://www.qatarairways.com/en/press-r ... 0000001105
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Zoedyn
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:48 am

Whoa! Incredibly wonderful news for CZ that has set its eyes firmly on OW membership following its divorce with ST in literally less than a couple of days ago :thumbsup:
 
Obzerva
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:05 am

Zoedyn wrote:
Whoa! Incredibly wonderful news for CZ that has set its eyes firmly on OW membership following its divorce with ST in literally less than a couple of days ago :thumbsup:


Given how frequently QR like to very publicly threaten to leave Oneworld, I'm not sure if QR would be assisting CZ in the process of joining.
 
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:07 am

While also having some stake at CX? Not sure what else are they also eyeing at other than just investment
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:38 am

WIth this result of QR and CZ, will EK be able to codeshare with CZ as well in the near the future? For EY, they just have a codeshare with MU already just announced earlier this month or last month. Now CZ and QR is probably about to start codeshare and EK does not have any partners from China behind it.
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bunumuring
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:40 am

Hey guys,
How long until Qatari eyes turn towards Australia....?!?!
I've heard speculation for a couple of years that the Qataris would love a piece of the Aussie airline scene.
Cheers,
Bunumuring
I just wanna live while I'm alive!
 
716131
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:42 am

Zoedyn wrote:
Whoa! Incredibly wonderful news for CZ that has set its eyes firmly on OW membership following its divorce with ST in literally less than a couple of days ago :thumbsup:

I think yes since in previous thread they just got another stake from AA and have codeshare with most OW as well!
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
716131
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:44 am

bunumuring wrote:
Hey guys,
How long until Qatari eyes turn towards Australia....?!?!
I've heard speculation for a couple of years that the Qataris would love a piece of the Aussie airline scene.
Cheers,
Bunumuring

Well according to a different source few months ago, QR is currently being boycotted by QF and when the airline tries to add more flights to Australia, they aren’t allowed because of a claim by QF as I see.
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:58 am

Will CZ merge with CX?
 
parapente
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:07 am

What -if any effect, will this move have on Emirates?
 
spannacomo
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:12 am

time for AAB to create a new alliance, with QR, CZ, CX, IAG, LA, and - why not - IG, cutting off AA and QF. Maybe they could try to lure B6 or AS for the american market to replace AA.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:37 am

chunhimlai wrote:
Will CZ merge with CX?

Yes, now that both have a few percent ownership by QR, they are starting the refits of the flight decks today so that all their aircraft will have all signage and labels of all switches, buttons and levers in Cantonese and Arabic only by March 31st. Recordings of Bitchin' Bertha in Arabic were made yesterday, Cantonese is done later this week. Management has also stated that for security reasons, the merged airline will refuse to use any airports of 5 runways or less.
 
716131
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:46 am

chunhimlai wrote:
Will CZ merge with CX?

Unlikely because of shorter distance between HKG and CAN.
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jfk777
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:46 pm

Did Qatar buy 5% of issued shares on a stock exchange or buy newly issued shares directly from China Southern ?
 
chonetsao
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:47 pm

wenders825 wrote:
spannacomo wrote:
time for AAB to create a new alliance, with QR, CZ, CX, IAG, LA, and - why not - IG, cutting off AA and QF. Maybe they could try to lure B6 or AS for the american market to replace AA.

this website is hilarious


And, this forum had taught us who had stayed long enough that:
1, Never say never.
2, Never laugh at someone's seemly outrageous claims until proved to be false.

So don't laugh at spannacomo's post yet. You might not be the winner after few years time. In Aviation, anything is possible, especially with Qatar and AAB in the mix.
 
chonetsao
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:57 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Did Qatar buy 5% of issued shares on a stock exchange or buy newly issued shares directly from China Southern ?


Public share purchase according to the stock market declaration.

And Qatar intends to purchase more.
 
juliuswong
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:06 pm

Great! Seems like QR is eating oneworld from within. Lolx, in long run I believe they will prevail, and stick two middle fingers at AA and QF. Imagine IAG, LATAM, CZ, CX and QR fighting QF and AA... Australia route will be in bloodbath. Given more time, QR might swallow even VA. Never say never in aviation world.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:11 pm

juliuswong wrote:
Great! Seems like QR is eating oneworld from within. Lolx, in long run I believe they will prevail, and stick two middle fingers at AA and QF. Imagine IAG, LATAM, CZ, CX and QR fighting QF and AA... Australia route will be in bloodbath. Given more time, QR might swallow even VA. Never say never in aviation world.

Except we are talking 5-10% shares here. And in most of these cases, they will never be able to get a majority share. While I understand that many times you can be a controlling shareholder even with 10% of the shares, it is hardly enough to take control of OW as such, or fight AA and QF as a "QR alliance".
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:12 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Will CZ merge with CX?

Yes, now that both have a few percent ownership by QR, they are starting the refits of the flight decks today so that all their aircraft will have all signage and labels of all switches, buttons and levers in Cantonese and Arabic only by March 31st. Recordings of Bitchin' Bertha in Arabic were made yesterday, Cantonese is done later this week. Management has also stated that for security reasons, the merged airline will refuse to use any airports of 5 runways or less.


(Serious mode for no reason)There is no such thing as written Cantonese, though. And trust me, if you make CX use Simplified Chinese the outrage would be insane in HK. Meanwhile, if you use Traditional Chinese, CZ pilots won’t understand it :stirthepot:

So as a compromise, everything written will be in Arabic. They will also build a new airport in the middle of Pearl River Delta, link by a giant bridge and HSR lines, and shut down HKG, CAN, SZX, FUO, ZUH, and MFM. The new airport will have 10 runways and 10 terminals. And since they can’t determine how border checks would work, it will be under Qatari control.

Back to more serious mode, though, it is definitely another sign that CZ is going to join OW. CX is probably not going to be happy, though.
 
chonetsao
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:18 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
Great! Seems like QR is eating oneworld from within. Lolx, in long run I believe they will prevail, and stick two middle fingers at AA and QF. Imagine IAG, LATAM, CZ, CX and QR fighting QF and AA... Australia route will be in bloodbath. Given more time, QR might swallow even VA. Never say never in aviation world.

Except we are talking 5-10% shares here. And in most of these cases, they will never be able to get a majority share. While I understand that many times you can be a controlling shareholder even with 10% of the shares, it is hardly enough to take control of OW as such, or fight AA and QF as a "QR alliance".


Slight correction: QR owns 20% of IAG.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:20 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Will CZ merge with CX?

Yes, now that both have a few percent ownership by QR, they are starting the refits of the flight decks today so that all their aircraft will have all signage and labels of all switches, buttons and levers in Cantonese and Arabic only by March 31st. Recordings of Bitchin' Bertha in Arabic were made yesterday, Cantonese is done later this week. Management has also stated that for security reasons, the merged airline will refuse to use any airports of 5 runways or less.


(Serious mode for no reason)There is no such thing as written Cantonese, though. And trust me, if you make CX use Simplified Chinese the outrage would be insane in HK. Meanwhile, if you use Traditional Chinese, CZ pilots won’t understand it :stirthepot:

So as a compromise, everything written will be in Arabic. They will also build a new airport in the middle of Pearl River Delta, link by a giant bridge and HSR lines, and shut down HKG, CAN, SZX, FUO, ZUH, and MFM. The new airport will have 10 runways and 10 terminals. And since they can’t determine how border checks would work, it will be under Qatari control.

Back to more serious mode, though, it is definitely another sign that CZ is going to join OW. CX is probably not going to be happy, though.

Can't CX veto CZ's entry into OW?
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:24 pm

chonetsao wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
Great! Seems like QR is eating oneworld from within. Lolx, in long run I believe they will prevail, and stick two middle fingers at AA and QF. Imagine IAG, LATAM, CZ, CX and QR fighting QF and AA... Australia route will be in bloodbath. Given more time, QR might swallow even VA. Never say never in aviation world.

Except we are talking 5-10% shares here. And in most of these cases, they will never be able to get a majority share. While I understand that many times you can be a controlling shareholder even with 10% of the shares, it is hardly enough to take control of OW as such, or fight AA and QF as a "QR alliance".


Slight correction: QR owns 20% of IAG.

Yes, sorry, my bad.
 
raylee67
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:26 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
Can't CX veto CZ's entry into OW?

Yes it can. OW's rule states that founding members of the alliance (i.e. AA, BA, CX and QF) can veto new entries.

However, CX's reason to be in OW is its connection with AA, that is so profitable and that has enabled its amazing growth in US since their code-sharing agreement. If AA wants to ditch it over CZ, CX will have no reason to stay in OW. On the other hand, it seems that CX has nowhere else to turn to for US connectivity. Star seems to be the natural place to go given CX/CA relationship and CX's code-sharing with AC, LH Group, NZ, etc. But what CX has in mind is its US connectivity, and UA/NH is so well oiled that NH may resist CX sharing that pie. Even if NH allows UA/CX code-sharing, it will be much less profitable than CX/AA code-sharing for CX, since there is now a few more airlines in Asia sharing it (besides NH, there is OZ too), and CX's relationship with UA will not be as close as NH's. Delta would have been another choice if it has not resolved its difference with Korean. But now that it has, it's difficult to see DL turning its back on its new partner in Korea. CX also never has any relationship with Delta and any other ST's airlines (except VN), so to go ST would mean beginning from scratch everywhere.

So at the end, if AA really pushes the envelop, CX may have to swallow the pill and negotiate with CZ on how to share the AA relationship. The CX/CA relationship is not going to change regardless. That cross-ownership is set up for political reason, not business (although it would serve business needs but that's a side effect). It is a symbol of China's stakes in Hong Kong, as aviation is viewed as the key infrastructure and even part of sovereignty. That stake needs to be established in a "capitalistic" way with minimal disruption, hence the cross-ownership, and it has to be done thru CA (not MU or CZ) because CA is the only flag carrier as established by law in China.
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ben237829624
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:37 pm

One theory is that QF is hedging it’s investment in CX. Maybe they think the CX investment was a bad idea and is trying to cover it long position by taking a long position at a competitor, then the possibility of getting another partner is just icing on the cake - nice to have but doesn’t make or break the transaction. CZ in its statement did not mention anything regarding strategic partnership with QR. It only said it appreciated the support and approval of QR.
On a further note, this type of open-market operation usually gets you very little other than your traditional investment returns even though 5% is technically not a small holding. You don’t get additional voting rights or get to nominate board members. Just look at what AA got with it’s smaller, but closed market investment - a seat in the board.
 
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:26 pm

Per CZ, QR retains rights to increase its stake in the next 12 months.

The other QR airline investments are - 20% IAG, 10% LATAM, 49% Meridiana and 9.99 % stake in CX.
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B1168
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:56 pm

parapente wrote:
What -if any effect, will this move have on Emirates?


Effect?
Short answer, Emirates will have to somehow look for a helper in mainland China and improve its market share.
Emirates only serve 3 mainland Chinese cities. In the Chinese context with subsidies, that means a failure. Loads of domestic carriers have exploited the opportunity by introducing loads of 2-4 weekly 332 operated flights from second-tier Chinese cities to DXB. As a matter of fact, many Chinese cities’ officials will want to push a subsidy-based flight to DXB right after its intl. flight to E.Asia network is good enough to go. And who do they ask? Not Emirates, long term short. And who do they serve? Tourists, but also business transfer.
Meanwhile, QR dominates China-DOH market by also serving CTU,CKG,HGH in mainland China. That market is a lot smaller, but its actual advantage is its extensive fleet and loads of smaller destinations that Emirates doesn’t bother to serve at all.
Stuffs of such will deepen Emirate’s desperate need for help from a Chinese carrier, and that leads us to Air China and Hainan Airlines. Expect Emirates to buy stocks from either of them.
 
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:49 pm

SQ789 wrote:
bunumuring wrote:
Hey guys,
How long until Qatari eyes turn towards Australia....?!?!
I've heard speculation for a couple of years that the Qataris would love a piece of the Aussie airline scene.
Cheers,
Bunumuring

Well according to a different source few months ago, QR is currently being boycotted by QF and when the airline tries to add more flights to Australia, they aren’t allowed because of a claim by QF as I see.


Not quite. Qantas does not have the power to grant bilateral air services agreements.

Qatar has maxed out their frequencies to Australia. They are negotiating for a new bilateral, but QF is lobbying for QR not to be granted more rights. They can try and persuade the Australian government, but they certainly don't get to make the decision.

If Qatar (the country, not the airline) can provide something meaningful in return then they will get more rights, if not then they won't. That doesn't have to be aviation related, trade is a quid pro quo. If Qatar removed tariffs on Australian agricultural products then I can all but guarantee they will be given greater access to the Australian market in return.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:08 pm

Interesting implications for OW alliance.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... tment-push

Acquisition of additional interest in CZ by QR expected.

CZ's major owners are now: Swire Pacfic Ltd at 45%, Air China at ~30%, and QR at 5%.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... y-j9nzktu9
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:22 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
CZ's major owners are now: Swire Pacfic Ltd at 45%, Air China at ~30%, and QR at 5%.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... y-j9nzktu9


You mean CX, right? If Swire Pacific owns 45% of CZ, CZ would have left ST long time ago :white:

BTW, article link:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... y-j9nzktu9

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... tment-push
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:41 pm

Yes, my error. CX's major owners are now: Swire Pacfic Ltd at 45%, Air China at ~30%, and QR at 5%.
 
winginit
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:44 pm

The speculation around how a minority investment like this one might shake up the oneworld alliance is in my mind evidence of how shaky oneworld already is and further supports the belief that the alliance model has formally outlived its useful lifespan.

Imagine if something similar were to happen with Sky Team carriers. EK or whomever could come in and snap up minority stakes in AF or KE or MU or whomever and it wouldn't even matter because the power players of Sky Team, having years ago realized that the alliance model was going to expire, locked up their favorite partners via Joint Ventures and Equity Stakes - it was the right approach.

Speaking to this investment in particular - QR could leave oneworld tomorrow and pinky promise that CZ would never join oneworld and no one would care.
 
chonetsao
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:26 pm

winginit wrote:
The speculation around how a minority investment like this one might shake up the oneworld alliance is in my mind evidence of how shaky oneworld already is and further supports the belief that the alliance model has formally outlived its useful lifespan.

Imagine if something similar were to happen with Sky Team carriers. EK or whomever could come in and snap up minority stakes in AF or KE or MU or whomever and it wouldn't even matter because the power players of Sky Team, having years ago realized that the alliance model was going to expire, locked up their favorite partners via Joint Ventures and Equity Stakes - it was the right approach.

Speaking to this investment in particular - QR could leave oneworld tomorrow and pinky promise that CZ would never join oneworld and no one would care.


No, you are wrong, alliance would not die. It will evolve. Before the butterfly can be fully evolved, or countries like China, Japan and the USA remove foreigner ownership restrictions, alliance will live happily thereafter.

Your suspicion is without foundation, China Southern is exactly the Skyteam member that was bought a minority stake by AA and then left. And the purpose of China Southern leaving SkyTeam for what? To join oneworld, at least according to majority of the speculations around. This episode of China Southern exit Skyteam only proves that alliance is still important to legacy carriers. Alliance is trying everything they can to take members they target. Members needs alliance wants to do everything to join in.

Few years back when Etihad is forming equity alliance, people made the same speculation about alliance and equity in partners. Look today, Etihad is on life support, its model never worked. Its investment is going badly wrong from Virgin Australia to Jet Airways to Alitalia. It was Swiss all again.

Equity stakes or JV can only go that far, there are always governments willing to block equity stakes and JV to protect jobs and national pride (yes, to some countries it is still important). As long as there is no 100% barrier free aviation market among the important countries that include whole of the EU, Japan, China, Latin America, Australia, South Africa, India and the North Americas, alliance is still the only practical solution going forward., at least to the medium terms.
 
winginit
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:57 pm

chonetsao wrote:
No, you are wrong, alliance would not die. It will evolve. Before the butterfly can be fully evolved, or countries like China, Japan and the USA remove foreigner ownership restrictions, alliance will live happily thereafter.


Please learn to read carefully. I did not say that any alliance would die. I simply said that the alliance model, which is actively being replaced by JVs and equity stakes, has outlived its useful lifespan. You seem to be in some ways backing that notion in saying that the next evolution might involve foreign ownership restrictions.

chonetsao wrote:
Your suspicion is without foundation, China Southern is exactly the Skyteam member that was bought a minority stake by AA and then left. And the purpose of China Southern leaving SkyTeam for what? To join oneworld, at least according to majority of the speculations around. This episode of China Southern exit Skyteam only proves that alliance is still important to legacy carriers. Alliance is trying everything they can to take members they target. Members needs alliance wants to do everything to join in.


It's very difficult to follow what you're saying on account of grammatical errors, but I think I'm gathering that your conclusion is that China Southern somehow needs oneworld. I'd be curious to hear what you think oneworld alliance membership would unlock for China Southern that they can't already do today. The answer, of course, is nothing - they're perfectly capable of setting up interline agreements, codeshare ties, frequent flyer agreements, and even joint ventures without having to pay dues to join oneworld.

chonetsao wrote:
Few years back when Etihad is forming equity alliance, people made the same speculation about alliance and equity in partners. Look today, Etihad is on life support, its model never worked. Its investment is going badly wrong from Virgin Australia to Jet Airways to Alitalia. It was Swiss all again.


That's a horrible comparison as you well know. Etihad invested in garbage carriers and they were punished for doing so. Hardly a fair comparison when the other example of the equity strategy is exactly what Delta is leveraging so effectively.

chonetsao wrote:
Equity stakes or JV can only go that far, there are always governments willing to block equity stakes and JV to protect jobs and national pride (yes, to some countries it is still important). As long as there is no 100% barrier free aviation market among the important countries that include whole of the EU, Japan, China, Latin America, Australia, South Africa, India and the North Americas, alliance is still the only practical solution going forward., at least to the medium terms.


That is, of course, entirely incorrect, for the previously mentioned reason that interline, codeshare, reciprocal FFP benefits, and just about any other cross-carrier benefit can be established without alliance membership. Emirates, Virgin Atlantic, and others have shown us this. As I stated, the alliance model has outlived its useful lifespan.

Here is my direct question to you:

What is it that oneworld membership would allow China Southern to do that they can't do as an unaffiliated carrier?
 
chonetsao
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Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:19 pm

winginit wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
No, you are wrong, alliance would not die. It will evolve. Before the butterfly can be fully evolved, or countries like China, Japan and the USA remove foreigner ownership restrictions, alliance will live happily thereafter.


Please learn to read carefully. I did not say that any alliance would die. I simply said that the alliance model, which is actively being replaced by JVs and equity stakes, has outlived its useful lifespan. You seem to be in some ways backing that notion in saying that the next evolution might involve foreign ownership restrictions.

chonetsao wrote:
Your suspicion is without foundation, China Southern is exactly the Skyteam member that was bought a minority stake by AA and then left. And the purpose of China Southern leaving SkyTeam for what? To join oneworld, at least according to majority of the speculations around. This episode of China Southern exit Skyteam only proves that alliance is still important to legacy carriers. Alliance is trying everything they can to take members they target. Members needs alliance wants to do everything to join in.


It's very difficult to follow what you're saying on account of grammatical errors, but I think I'm gathering that your conclusion is that China Southern somehow needs oneworld. I'd be curious to hear what you think oneworld alliance membership would unlock for China Southern that they can't already do today. The answer, of course, is nothing - they're perfectly capable of setting up interline agreements, codeshare ties, frequent flyer agreements, and even joint ventures without having to pay dues to join oneworld.

chonetsao wrote:
Few years back when Etihad is forming equity alliance, people made the same speculation about alliance and equity in partners. Look today, Etihad is on life support, its model never worked. Its investment is going badly wrong from Virgin Australia to Jet Airways to Alitalia. It was Swiss all again.


That's a horrible comparison as you well know. Etihad invested in garbage carriers and they were punished for doing so. Hardly a fair comparison when the other example of the equity strategy is exactly what Delta is leveraging so effectively.

chonetsao wrote:
Equity stakes or JV can only go that far, there are always governments willing to block equity stakes and JV to protect jobs and national pride (yes, to some countries it is still important). As long as there is no 100% barrier free aviation market among the important countries that include whole of the EU, Japan, China, Latin America, Australia, South Africa, India and the North Americas, alliance is still the only practical solution going forward., at least to the medium terms.


That is, of course, entirely incorrect, for the previously mentioned reason that interline, codeshare, reciprocal FFP benefits, and just about any other cross-carrier benefit can be established without alliance membership. Emirates, Virgin Atlantic, and others have shown us this. As I stated, the alliance model has outlived its useful lifespan.

Here is my direct question to you:

What is it that oneworld membership would allow China Southern to do that they can't do as an unaffiliated carrier?


My answer to your direct questions: China Southern needs a global alliance membership to be competitive against other CN3, namely Air China (Star Alliance) and China Eastern (SkyTeam). Not to mention China Southern also needs the global network and frequent flyers of oneworld to support and to sustain its expansion ambition.

And to your points:
1, I am not sure if Etihad sees their investment as garbage airlines. At the time of investment, Etihad model is hailed as the living prove of alliance membership's demise. By the way, you just insulted airlines from Italy, Australia, India and others.
2, Emirate is a special case. Its size and network means it can live without alliance. But at some stage, even Emirates was seriously looking at join star.
3, Virgin Atlantic might not need alliance membership, but it does not prove anything. It still rely on Delta's network and cooperation.
4, If you think you are so correct, tell me why both Alaska and Westjet are seeking oneworld and skyteam membership respectively? Especially Westjet, it is part of the Delta portfolio, what is the point to join Skyteam or seek to join Skyteam while they can do a Virgin Atlantic and be independent within Delta group of airlines?
5, And, if you think you are so visionary, why Delta has not pulled out from Skyteam to concentrate on its own group of equity partners and JV partners? After all, by pulling out of alliance, Delta can save tens millions every year. Why?
 
Swadian
Posts: 562
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:56 am

Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:58 pm

chonetsao wrote:
winginit wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
No, you are wrong, alliance would not die. It will evolve. Before the butterfly can be fully evolved, or countries like China, Japan and the USA remove foreigner ownership restrictions, alliance will live happily thereafter.


Please learn to read carefully. I did not say that any alliance would die. I simply said that the alliance model, which is actively being replaced by JVs and equity stakes, has outlived its useful lifespan. You seem to be in some ways backing that notion in saying that the next evolution might involve foreign ownership restrictions.

chonetsao wrote:
Your suspicion is without foundation, China Southern is exactly the Skyteam member that was bought a minority stake by AA and then left. And the purpose of China Southern leaving SkyTeam for what? To join oneworld, at least according to majority of the speculations around. This episode of China Southern exit Skyteam only proves that alliance is still important to legacy carriers. Alliance is trying everything they can to take members they target. Members needs alliance wants to do everything to join in.


It's very difficult to follow what you're saying on account of grammatical errors, but I think I'm gathering that your conclusion is that China Southern somehow needs oneworld. I'd be curious to hear what you think oneworld alliance membership would unlock for China Southern that they can't already do today. The answer, of course, is nothing - they're perfectly capable of setting up interline agreements, codeshare ties, frequent flyer agreements, and even joint ventures without having to pay dues to join oneworld.

chonetsao wrote:
Few years back when Etihad is forming equity alliance, people made the same speculation about alliance and equity in partners. Look today, Etihad is on life support, its model never worked. Its investment is going badly wrong from Virgin Australia to Jet Airways to Alitalia. It was Swiss all again.


That's a horrible comparison as you well know. Etihad invested in garbage carriers and they were punished for doing so. Hardly a fair comparison when the other example of the equity strategy is exactly what Delta is leveraging so effectively.

chonetsao wrote:
Equity stakes or JV can only go that far, there are always governments willing to block equity stakes and JV to protect jobs and national pride (yes, to some countries it is still important). As long as there is no 100% barrier free aviation market among the important countries that include whole of the EU, Japan, China, Latin America, Australia, South Africa, India and the North Americas, alliance is still the only practical solution going forward., at least to the medium terms.


That is, of course, entirely incorrect, for the previously mentioned reason that interline, codeshare, reciprocal FFP benefits, and just about any other cross-carrier benefit can be established without alliance membership. Emirates, Virgin Atlantic, and others have shown us this. As I stated, the alliance model has outlived its useful lifespan.

Here is my direct question to you:

What is it that oneworld membership would allow China Southern to do that they can't do as an unaffiliated carrier?


My answer to your direct questions: China Southern needs a global alliance membership to be competitive against other CN3, namely Air China (Star Alliance) and China Eastern (SkyTeam). Not to mention China Southern also needs the global network and frequent flyers of oneworld to support and to sustain its expansion ambition.

And to your points:
1, I am not sure if Etihad sees their investment as garbage airlines. At the time of investment, Etihad model is hailed as the living prove of alliance membership's demise. By the way, you just insulted airlines from Italy, Australia, India and others.
2, Emirate is a special case. Its size and network means it can live without alliance. But at some stage, even Emirates was seriously looking at join star.
3, Virgin Atlantic might not need alliance membership, but it does not prove anything. It still rely on Delta's network and cooperation.
4, If you think you are so correct, tell me why both Alaska and Westjet are seeking oneworld and skyteam membership respectively? Especially Westjet, it is part of the Delta portfolio, what is the point to join Skyteam or seek to join Skyteam while they can do a Virgin Atlantic and be independent within Delta group of airlines?
5, And, if you think you are so visionary, why Delta has not pulled out from Skyteam to concentrate on its own group of equity partners and JV partners? After all, by pulling out of alliance, Delta can save tens millions every year. Why?


I think we can agree that CZ might not necessarily need an alliance due to their market position in China and their volume of direct and indirect subsides, but it would be better for them to be in an alliance to facilitate all those benefits instead of just going it alone. It's why trade associations still exist in many industries, and so on and so forth.
 
itchief
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:15 pm

Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:10 am

raylee67 wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Can't CX veto CZ's entry into OW?

Yes it can. OW's rule states that founding members of the alliance (i.e. AA, BA, CX and QF) can veto new entries.

However, CX's reason to be in OW is its connection with AA, that is so profitable and that has enabled its amazing growth in US since their code-sharing agreement. If AA wants to ditch it over CZ, CX will have no reason to stay in OW. On the other hand, it seems that CX has nowhere else to turn to for US connectivity. Star seems to be the natural place to go given CX/CA relationship and CX's code-sharing with AC, LH Group, NZ, etc. But what CX has in mind is its US connectivity, and UA/NH is so well oiled that NH may resist CX sharing that pie. Even if NH allows UA/CX code-sharing, it will be much less profitable than CX/AA code-sharing for CX, since there is now a few more airlines in Asia sharing it (besides NH, there is OZ too), and CX's relationship with UA will not be as close as NH's. Delta would have been another choice if it has not resolved its difference with Korean. But now that it has, it's difficult to see DL turning its back on its new partner in Korea. CX also never has any relationship with Delta and any other ST's airlines (except VN), so to go ST would mean beginning from scratch everywhere.

So at the end, if AA really pushes the envelop, CX may have to swallow the pill and negotiate with CZ on how to share the AA relationship. The CX/CA relationship is not going to change regardless. That cross-ownership is set up for political reason, not business (although it would serve business needs but that's a side effect). It is a symbol of China's stakes in Hong Kong, as aviation is viewed as the key infrastructure and even part of sovereignty. That stake needs to be established in a "capitalistic" way with minimal disruption, hence the cross-ownership, and it has to be done thru CA (not MU or CZ) because CA is the only flag carrier as established by law in China.


You do know that AA already owns 2.76 percent of CZ .

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/28/america ... lines.html

Funny that QR and AA are now partners in a small way.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1527
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:11 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
Qantas does not have the power to grant bilateral air services agreements.

It can influence.

Withdraw their objections (supported by AA?) to QR's request, or even support it, might see more 'generous' consideration of the proposed QF/AA JV.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20290
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:16 am

I see QR may increase their investment. I've never understood small minority investments unless it is to stabilize a partner in a joint-venture (such as DL-VS) or a trade of stock to help enforce the joint venture and put someone on the board of directors of each airline. Is 5% enough? I would think not, but I'm curious if it is enough for a board seat.

If OW is able to grow, this is a good thing. As already noted, it could put pressure on EK. In particular if QR & 6E also tie up. (Yes, a bit off topic, but it relates as QR must build economy of scale.) Now is the time as EK needs more runways/terminals, but Dubai doesn't have the funds to build out DWC for many years.

RyanairGuru wrote:
If Qatar (the country, not the airline) can provide something meaningful in return then they will get more rights, if not then they won't. That doesn't have to be aviation related, trade is a quid pro quo. If Qatar removed tariffs on Australian agricultural products then I can all but guarantee they will be given greater access to the Australian market in return.

Well written. It amazes me how focused some here will become. Bilaterals are negotiated for both nations. The air service part is only a small aspect (typically).

Obzerva wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
Whoa! Incredibly wonderful news for CZ that has set its eyes firmly on OW membership following its divorce with ST in literally less than a couple of days ago :thumbsup:


Given how frequently QR like to very publicly threaten to leave Oneworld, I'm not sure if QR would be assisting CZ in the process of joining.

I had a chuckle. I'm not sure AAB rooting for any airline benefits them with his abrasive negotiation style. Does CZ need carpet assessment training? ;)

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
winginit
Posts: 2943
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:23 am

chonetsao wrote:
My answer to your direct questions: China Southern needs a global alliance membership to be competitive against other CN3, namely Air China (Star Alliance) and China Eastern (SkyTeam). Not to mention China Southern also needs the global network and frequent flyers of oneworld to support and to sustain its expansion ambition.


We'll have to agree to disagree on whether or not alliance membership in and of itself is necessary to be competitive against the other CN3. They can access a cross-carrier global network and formulate frequent flyer ties without alliance membership - that's a fact.

chonetsao wrote:
And to your points:
1, I am not sure if Etihad sees their investment as garbage airlines. At the time of investment, Etihad model is hailed as the living prove of alliance membership's demise. By the way, you just insulted airlines from Italy, Australia, India and others.


Let's see here... Air Berlin went bust... Alitalia should go bust, Jet Airways is out of cash, Air Serbia just got a secret cash injection from their government, and Air Seychelles is a government owned airline with 7 aircraft. Virgin Australia is the only EY investment that's even noteworthy, and they're continuing to perform so poorly that even their JV partner Delta won't invest in them. Garbage. Impacts to global aviation would be minimal if every single one of those carriers disappeared within a year with the possible exception of Virgin Australia.

chonetsao wrote:
2, Emirate is a special case. Its size and network means it can live without alliance. But at some stage, even Emirates was seriously looking at join star.


And it grew to that size and strength without an alliance. My argument is that China Southern can very easily do the same. Notable that they actively decided not to join an alliance even after considering it and likely doing their due diligence. Proves my point.

chonetsao wrote:
3, Virgin Atlantic might not need alliance membership, but it does not prove anything. It still rely on Delta's network and cooperation.


Exactly my point. Virgin gets Delta's network and cooperation without an alliance. Thank you for reinforcing my point yet again.

chonetsao wrote:
4, If you think you are so correct, tell me why both Alaska and Westjet are seeking oneworld and skyteam membership respectively? Especially Westjet, it is part of the Delta portfolio, what is the point to join Skyteam or seek to join Skyteam while they can do a Virgin Atlantic and be independent within Delta group of airlines?


You're going to use speculation and rumors to try and prove your point? Good luck with that approach. I don't think either Alaska or Westjet will join an alliance. They've both achieved success without one, and Westjet is proving my point yet again by pursuing a JV with Delta before joining an alliance.

chonetsao wrote:
5, And, if you think you are so visionary, why Delta has not pulled out from Skyteam to concentrate on its own group of equity partners and JV partners? After all, by pulling out of alliance, Delta can save tens millions every year. Why?


I believe they will eventually do so, but will not pull the trigger until they've locked up the final pieces to their JV/Equity portfolio - namely Westjet JV approval and the integration of GOL into a JV.

At the end of the day, aviation alliances across the board could dissolve tomorrow and we're already at a point where impacts and synergies would be quickly remedied and re-established without the need to revive the model. The powerful global carriers are selecting their preferred and strategic partners and locking them down with equity stakes and joint ventures - replacing the aging alliance model.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1527
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:32 am

winginit wrote:
That is, of course, entirely incorrect, for the previously mentioned reason that interline, codeshare, reciprocal FFP benefits, and just about any other cross-carrier benefit can be established without alliance membership. Emirates, Virgin Atlantic, and others have shown us this. As I stated, the alliance model has outlived its useful lifespan.

However, alliance membership seems to confer a degree of legitimacy amongst regulators, when interline, codeshare, reciprocal FFP benefits, and just about any other cross-carrier benefit, requires said approval.

Alliances are poised to be re-invented, and perhaps 2, or more likely 1 of the current 3, might not survive, at least in name. There are alliances with big ideas, and the smallest has the biggest. There are some big names outside alliances. There are dissatisfied members in every alliance. There are powerful members in every alliance that want other members, large and small, to exit. Change and instability creates opportunities.

Just as we are poised to see rationalisation in the aero engine industry, and further air frame, airline, leasing and finance rationalisation, unlikely alliances won't be affected.
 
winginit
Posts: 2943
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:36 am

smartplane wrote:
winginit wrote:
That is, of course, entirely incorrect, for the previously mentioned reason that interline, codeshare, reciprocal FFP benefits, and just about any other cross-carrier benefit can be established without alliance membership. Emirates, Virgin Atlantic, and others have shown us this. As I stated, the alliance model has outlived its useful lifespan.

However, alliance membership seems to confer a degree of legitimacy amongst regulators, when interline, codeshare, reciprocal FFP benefits, and just about any other cross-carrier benefit, requires said approval.


I don't disagree with that point, but I'd argue that conferred legitimacy is no longer (if it ever was) enough to tilt a decision into the carriers' favor.
 
gunnerman
Posts: 1147
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:44 am

lightsaber wrote:
I see QR may increase their investment. I've never understood small minority investments unless it is to stabilize a partner in a joint-venture (such as DL-VS) or a trade of stock to help enforce the joint venture and put someone on the board of directors of each airline. Is 5% enough? I would think not, but I'm curious if it is enough for a board seat.
Lightsaber

On the basis of OW's investment in IAG, 5% may not be enough for a board seat. But a minority investment can make it easier to collaborate in a range of ways such as ground handling, engineering, insurance, etc. And remember that BA wet-leased in 2018 nine A320s (to cover a cabin crew strike) and three A330s (to overcome schedule disruption caused by 787 engine problems) from OW.
 
winginit
Posts: 2943
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:06 am

gunnerman wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I see QR may increase their investment. I've never understood small minority investments unless it is to stabilize a partner in a joint-venture (such as DL-VS) or a trade of stock to help enforce the joint venture and put someone on the board of directors of each airline. Is 5% enough? I would think not, but I'm curious if it is enough for a board seat.
Lightsaber

On the basis of OW's investment in IAG, 5% may not be enough for a board seat. But a minority investment can make it easier to collaborate in a range of ways such as ground handling, engineering, insurance, etc. And remember that BA wet-leased in 2018 nine A320s (to cover a cabin crew strike) and three A330s (to overcome schedule disruption caused by 787 engine problems) from OW.


5% is definitely not enough for a board seat.

For some perspective, QR has no board presence with IAG and that's a 20% stake. For some more context, Delta has 3 of Virgin Atlantic's 7 Non-Executive Board Seats with their 49% stake.
 
Pelly
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:13 pm

Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:27 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
bunumuring wrote:
Hey guys,
How long until Qatari eyes turn towards Australia....?!?!
I've heard speculation for a couple of years that the Qataris would love a piece of the Aussie airline scene.
Cheers,
Bunumuring

Well according to a different source few months ago, QR is currently being boycotted by QF and when the airline tries to add more flights to Australia, they aren’t allowed because of a claim by QF as I see.


Not quite. Qantas does not have the power to grant bilateral air services agreements.

Qatar has maxed out their frequencies to Australia. They are negotiating for a new bilateral, but QF is lobbying for QR not to be granted more rights. They can try and persuade the Australian government, but they certainly don't get to make the decision.

If Qatar (the country, not the airline) can provide something meaningful in return then they will get more rights, if not then they won't. That doesn't have to be aviation related, trade is a quid pro quo. If Qatar removed tariffs on Australian agricultural products then I can all but guarantee they will be given greater access to the Australian market in return.


QR was very confident of having expanded bilateral with Australia because a deal was reached, that deal revolved around incentives for the Australian agricultural industry. That deal was scuppered at the last minute after McCormack took over as minister and specifically invited input from Qantas.


https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/que ... ews-story/
Last edited by Pelly on Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Pelly
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:13 pm

Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:30 am

winginit wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I see QR may increase their investment. I've never understood small minority investments unless it is to stabilize a partner in a joint-venture (such as DL-VS) or a trade of stock to help enforce the joint venture and put someone on the board of directors of each airline. Is 5% enough? I would think not, but I'm curious if it is enough for a board seat.
Lightsaber

On the basis of OW's investment in IAG, 5% may not be enough for a board seat. But a minority investment can make it easier to collaborate in a range of ways such as ground handling, engineering, insurance, etc. And remember that BA wet-leased in 2018 nine A320s (to cover a cabin crew strike) and three A330s (to overcome schedule disruption caused by 787 engine problems) from OW.


5% is definitely not enough for a board seat.

For some perspective, QR has no board presence with IAG and that's a 20% stake. For some more context, Delta has 3 of Virgin Atlantic's 7 Non-Executive Board Seats with their 49% stake.


QR chose to not have a board presence on IAG as they have confidence in the direction of the current board and have a good relationship with IAG management.
 
panamair
Posts: 4344
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:45 am

winginit wrote:

5% is definitely not enough for a board seat.

For some perspective, QR has no board presence with IAG and that's a 20% stake. For some more context, Delta has 3 of Virgin Atlantic's 7 Non-Executive Board Seats with their 49% stake.


I believe Delta has a seat on the AF-KL board for about an 8.8% stake, and it has an observer seat on the MU board for the 3+% it holds of MU.
 
User avatar
Slug71
Posts: 1491
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:08 am

Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:46 am

Maybe they'll buy a stake in SAA next. :lol:
 
winginit
Posts: 2943
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:14 am

panamair wrote:
winginit wrote:

5% is definitely not enough for a board seat.

For some perspective, QR has no board presence with IAG and that's a 20% stake. For some more context, Delta has 3 of Virgin Atlantic's 7 Non-Executive Board Seats with their 49% stake.


I believe Delta has a seat on the AF-KL board for about an 8.8% stake


That's true and not surprising given the combined JV and equity ties between the two carrier groups, although there are a few things of note:

- AF/KL's board has a whopping 19 members
- Unlike the Virgin Atlantic board, where Delta's CEO and President both fill two separate seats and the third is filled with an active Delta employee; Delta's seat on the AF/KL board is a permanent appointee and is also a member of the Delta Air Lines board. He's a retired Goldman Sachs partner who does not, and has not ever, worked for Delta Air Lines apart from his board duties.

Pelly wrote:
QR chose to not have a board presence on IAG as they have confidence in the direction of the current board and have a good relationship with IAG management.


Just for absolute clarity, it's not as if QR was offered a board seat and refused. QR was never offered a board seat in addition to never claiming that they wanted one. Just a small but possibly relevant distinction.
 
Obzerva
Posts: 495
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:48 am

Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:45 am

smartplane wrote:
winginit wrote:
That is, of course, entirely incorrect, for the previously mentioned reason that interline, codeshare, reciprocal FFP benefits, and just about any other cross-carrier benefit can be established without alliance membership. Emirates, Virgin Atlantic, and others have shown us this. As I stated, the alliance model has outlived its useful lifespan.

However, alliance membership seems to confer a degree of legitimacy amongst regulators, when interline, codeshare, reciprocal FFP benefits, and just about any other cross-carrier benefit, requires said approval.

Alliances are poised to be re-invented, and perhaps 2, or more likely 1 of the current 3, might not survive, at least in name. There are alliances with big ideas, and the smallest has the biggest. There are some big names outside alliances. There are dissatisfied members in every alliance. There are powerful members in every alliance that want other members, large and small, to exit. Change and instability creates opportunities.

Just as we are poised to see rationalisation in the aero engine industry, and further air frame, airline, leasing and finance rationalisation, unlikely alliances won't be affected.


I agree with your point about airline alliances being re-invented, but in the same way that a number of airline frequent flyer programs are often "enhanced" and there is little benefit to the traveller after the enhancement, it's usually less points earn, more status credits required to attain the next tier, etc.

Apart from Royal Air Maroc, there's been no one wanting in as a full member for years, the alliances have had to come up with a second tier "connecting partners" to save face and look like they're growing.

Meanwhile it's been several years of furious activity with airlines jumping in to bed with whomever they think can prove to be an advantage, whether that be in the same alliance, a different one, or unaligned.
 
User avatar
ClassicLover
Posts: 4903
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:27 pm

Re: Qatar Airways announces its has acquired a 5% stake in China Southern Airlines

Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:34 am

Obzerva wrote:
Apart from Royal Air Maroc, there's been no one wanting in as a full member for years, the alliances have had to come up with a second tier "connecting partners" to save face and look like they're growing.

Meanwhile it's been several years of furious activity with airlines jumping in to bed with whomever they think can prove to be an advantage, whether that be in the same alliance, a different one, or unaligned.


The reason for this is that alliance membership is costly, not just the joining fees, but IT integration, staff training and so on. Virtually all the large airlines are already in alliances and the smaller airlines can't afford to join.

Alliances have matured and no growth is not a bad thing. The human race's biggest failing is the thought that growth = great. It's what's killing the planet for one. Things like oneworld Connect to give smaller carriers a foothold in an alliance are very good.

With regards to joint ventures, they are also an evolution from codeshares and so on. The big shift will be once ownership requirements change where carriers are not required to be 51% locally owned in order to qualify for a countries bilateral. Things are always changing.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!

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