Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
whywhyzee wrote:Was running some back of the napkin calculations, next summer will see over 500K additional seats spread across numerous increases (AF, LH, etc) along side AC adding 29 planes, most of which will pass through pretty frequently. Look for ~ 53 million total pax next year barring anything crazy.
wave46 wrote:whywhyzee wrote:Was running some back of the napkin calculations, next summer will see over 500K additional seats spread across numerous increases (AF, LH, etc) along side AC adding 29 planes, most of which will pass through pretty frequently. Look for ~ 53 million total pax next year barring anything crazy.
How many passengers can Pearson accommodate in its current form? 50m? 60m?
How 'peaky' is Pearson over the year? I know it accommodates larger numbers during the summer and occasional spurts during the winter. I've only been through it during the slower seasons recently. How's it coping at peak times?
whywhyzee wrote:Peak times it operates well in excess of capacity. T1 is getting 5 new contact gates this year, they are in advanced stages of construction, as well as 5 new permanent hard stands with enclosed boarding structures. That will add a significant amount of capability and a much better experience this coming year. Last year, they re-opened the infield terminal as an extension of T3 which helps a little, but more gates will be needed.
YYZLGA wrote:whywhyzee wrote:Peak times it operates well in excess of capacity. T1 is getting 5 new contact gates this year, they are in advanced stages of construction, as well as 5 new permanent hard stands with enclosed boarding structures. That will add a significant amount of capability and a much better experience this coming year. Last year, they re-opened the infield terminal as an extension of T3 which helps a little, but more gates will be needed.
Thanks for the information. Are the new contact gates in the Gate 193 area? Where are the hard stands located?
Ten more gates will certainly take some of the pressure off. I've always been somewhat partial to the idea of mobile lounges, especially in YYZ's climate. Obviously they're a terrible idea as the main means of boarding aircraft, like YMX and old IAD, but they're not a bad way to add flex capacity to be used in peak periods that isn't as uncomfortable as bus boarding.
whywhyzee wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:whywhyzee wrote:
Very interesting, thanks. The master plan seems to indicate a lot of these kinds of piecemeal expansions as you describe. It's a great way to avoid the situation of huge capital expansions opening all at once and being half-empty at first. They don't seem to think the runway capacity constraint is coming all that soon, since they don't even plan to build the fourth parallel runway in the next couple decades.
I'm still slightly unclear on the gates on the east side of the 193 pier. The existing pier is at ground level. Will the gates not have jetways or will the new section be raised somehow?
One other more technical question...why do Pearson approaches from the south always head straight for the airport and then turn either left or right, head directly away from the airport a good distance before turning back to line up with the runway. Wouldn't it save a lot of fuel and noise if aircraft just headed directly from flying over Lake Ontario to wherever east or west of the airport they need to turn to line up with the runway? I'm sure there's an operational reason that this is easier and I may be missing something big, but the added ~10 minutes of flying multiplied by dozens of aircraft a day surely amounts to quite a bit.
YYZLGA wrote:Yesterday was the last day of the Buttonville tower. Where has all that GA traffic gone?
https://twitter.com/CATCA5454/status/10 ... 4248712193
YYZLGA wrote:whywhyzee wrote:
Very interesting, thanks. The master plan seems to indicate a lot of these kinds of piecemeal expansions as you describe. It's a great way to avoid the situation of huge capital expansions opening all at once and being half-empty at first. They don't seem to think the runway capacity constraint is coming all that soon, since they don't even plan to build the fourth parallel runway in the next couple decades.
I'm still slightly unclear on the gates on the east side of the 193 pier. The existing pier is at ground level. Will the gates not have jetways or will the new section be raised somehow?
One other more technical question...why do Pearson approaches from the south always head straight for the airport and then turn either left or right, head directly away from the airport a good distance before turning back to line up with the runway. Wouldn't it save a lot of fuel and noise if aircraft just headed directly from flying over Lake Ontario to wherever east or west of the airport they need to turn to line up with the runway? I'm sure there's an operational reason that this is easier and I may be missing something big, but the added ~10 minutes of flying multiplied by dozens of aircraft a day surely amounts to quite a bit.
DrewFOC wrote:Great to see a thread for my primary home airport.
I think it's worth noting that HU recently extended its PEK-YYZ route to CKG, making it YYZ's first destination to secondary/inland Chinese cities. YVR has been getting all those secondary routes instead of YYZ (capacity or policy restrictions?) But CKG still came as a surprise for me as I would have expected destinations like CTU to SZX to come first. Wonder why HU chose CKG and how that route has been doing so far.
whywhyzee wrote:DrewFOC wrote:Great to see a thread for my primary home airport.
I think it's worth noting that HU recently extended its PEK-YYZ route to CKG, making it YYZ's first destination to secondary/inland Chinese cities. YVR has been getting all those secondary routes instead of YYZ (capacity or policy restrictions?) But CKG still came as a surprise for me as I would have expected destinations like CTU to SZX to come first. Wonder why HU chose CKG and how that route has been doing so far.
A lot of YVRs gains are two fold - primarily, YVR has a huge asian heritage population, which naturally draws more asian pax in. Secondly, it is significantly closer to china, permitting A330 operations. Most secondary Chinese airlines don't yet have equipment that can even reach YYZ.
The HU route still always goes through PEK, this extra add on just simplifies onward flow. As it stands, the Canada-China bilateral is full, so no further flights can be added.
Separate Update on T1 construction: the old gate 193 complex will be called Pier G moving forward, as it gains 5 jet bridges on thetas side, as well as a significantly increased structure and waiting area. Construction on Pier H has also just begun. That will be the new pier added to the eastern end of T1, adding between 10 and 12 gates, including 4 gates for widebodies from what I can tell. This pier as far as I know is intended to serve transborder flights, so, upon it's completion, most of the current transferred area can likely be converted to international with the capability to swing to transborder to accommodate times with more than 4 US bound wide bodies at a time (early mornings come to mind). Where we stand, net year will see 10 more gates available, and 2020 should see Pier H nearing completion or complete and somewhat operational. Huge chance for AC and Star Alliance to expand capacity, especially at peak times.
No update yet on T3 expansion, it is still pending the demolition of the old AC hangar which is supposedly set to take place this year. In that case however, the IFT continues to be an option they take advantage of to offer more capacity with very limited expenditure.
master14225 wrote:Are they doing the Pier H construction in phases or the entire pier in one go?whywhyzee wrote:DrewFOC wrote:Great to see a thread for my primary home airport.
I think it's worth noting that HU recently extended its PEK-YYZ route to CKG, making it YYZ's first destination to secondary/inland Chinese cities. YVR has been getting all those secondary routes instead of YYZ (capacity or policy restrictions?) But CKG still came as a surprise for me as I would have expected destinations like CTU to SZX to come first. Wonder why HU chose CKG and how that route has been doing so far.
A lot of YVRs gains are two fold - primarily, YVR has a huge asian heritage population, which naturally draws more asian pax in. Secondly, it is significantly closer to china, permitting A330 operations. Most secondary Chinese airlines don't yet have equipment that can even reach YYZ.
The HU route still always goes through PEK, this extra add on just simplifies onward flow. As it stands, the Canada-China bilateral is full, so no further flights can be added.
Separate Update on T1 construction: the old gate 193 complex will be called Pier G moving forward, as it gains 5 jet bridges on thetas side, as well as a significantly increased structure and waiting area. Construction on Pier H has also just begun. That will be the new pier added to the eastern end of T1, adding between 10 and 12 gates, including 4 gates for widebodies from what I can tell. This pier as far as I know is intended to serve transborder flights, so, upon it's completion, most of the current transferred area can likely be converted to international with the capability to swing to transborder to accommodate times with more than 4 US bound wide bodies at a time (early mornings come to mind). Where we stand, net year will see 10 more gates available, and 2020 should see Pier H nearing completion or complete and somewhat operational. Huge chance for AC and Star Alliance to expand capacity, especially at peak times.
No update yet on T3 expansion, it is still pending the demolition of the old AC hangar which is supposedly set to take place this year. In that case however, the IFT continues to be an option they take advantage of to offer more capacity with very limited expenditure.
whywhyzee wrote:Somewhat newsworthy, I noticed an American Eagle flight use the IFT today. AA wasn't one of the original users, so this means it's likely being used as overflow.
whywhyzee wrote:Somewhat newsworthy, I noticed an American Eagle flight use the IFT today. AA wasn't one of the original users, so this means it's likely being used as overflow.
whywhyzee wrote:master14225 wrote:Are they doing the Pier H construction in phases or the entire pier in one go?whywhyzee wrote:
A lot of YVRs gains are two fold - primarily, YVR has a huge asian heritage population, which naturally draws more asian pax in. Secondly, it is significantly closer to china, permitting A330 operations. Most secondary Chinese airlines don't yet have equipment that can even reach YYZ.
The HU route still always goes through PEK, this extra add on just simplifies onward flow. As it stands, the Canada-China bilateral is full, so no further flights can be added.
Separate Update on T1 construction: the old gate 193 complex will be called Pier G moving forward, as it gains 5 jet bridges on thetas side, as well as a significantly increased structure and waiting area. Construction on Pier H has also just begun. That will be the new pier added to the eastern end of T1, adding between 10 and 12 gates, including 4 gates for widebodies from what I can tell. This pier as far as I know is intended to serve transborder flights, so, upon it's completion, most of the current transferred area can likely be converted to international with the capability to swing to transborder to accommodate times with more than 4 US bound wide bodies at a time (early mornings come to mind). Where we stand, net year will see 10 more gates available, and 2020 should see Pier H nearing completion or complete and somewhat operational. Huge chance for AC and Star Alliance to expand capacity, especially at peak times.
No update yet on T3 expansion, it is still pending the demolition of the old AC hangar which is supposedly set to take place this year. In that case however, the IFT continues to be an option they take advantage of to offer more capacity with very limited expenditure.
Not certain, if I had to guess, it'll be phased. They only have half of the pier footprint currently undergoing work, so I imagine it'll first be the section that goes east/west along the edge of the airside area before the southwards extension.
YYZLGA wrote:It's strange to me, especially since so many people have complained about the low quality of the transborder RJ area at Gate 193 and you'd think they'd want people to know it's much better now.
The other big problem is the F hammerhead pier. At evening peaks, it becomes extremely overcrowded, to the point that it's hard to walk around when people are queueing for flights. In their master plan, they mentioned the possibility of moving some of the retail up to the second floor, which might help. I remember when it first opened, it was quite spacious, but it has gradually filled up with shops and restaurants.
sixtyseven wrote:YYZLGA wrote:whywhyzee wrote:
Very interesting, thanks. The master plan seems to indicate a lot of these kinds of piecemeal expansions as you describe. It's a great way to avoid the situation of huge capital expansions opening all at once and being half-empty at first. They don't seem to think the runway capacity constraint is coming all that soon, since they don't even plan to build the fourth parallel runway in the next couple decades.
I'm still slightly unclear on the gates on the east side of the 193 pier. The existing pier is at ground level. Will the gates not have jetways or will the new section be raised somehow?
One other more technical question...why do Pearson approaches from the south always head straight for the airport and then turn either left or right, head directly away from the airport a good distance before turning back to line up with the runway. Wouldn't it save a lot of fuel and noise if aircraft just headed directly from flying over Lake Ontario to wherever east or west of the airport they need to turn to line up with the runway? I'm sure there's an operational reason that this is easier and I may be missing something big, but the added ~10 minutes of flying multiplied by dozens of aircraft a day surely amounts to quite a bit.
You mean like YYC? What a blunder there
As for traffic coming into YYZ. Planes are coming from North, East, South and West. The bottleneck that would ensue if you sent all of these arrivals to downwind bedposts would be huge. Add to that departures you need to get them up and enroute as well. They’re the ones burning the most gas and making the most noise.
The arrivals you speak of entering over LINNG need to be metered with arrivals coming from the other bedpost fixes. Sending them to a base entry leg to final would require lots of speed restriction further out, increasing ATS workload. Usually things work quite well. The days of the 20nm downwind seem to be gone. They happen but only occasionally.
As bad a rap YYZ gets, you rarely hold. Now if those pilots at WestJet would fly and descend at jet speeds we wouldnt have to slow down 150nm out. 250 knots descent speeds.
Silly owners.
Whiteguy wrote:sixtyseven wrote:YYZLGA wrote:
Very interesting, thanks. The master plan seems to indicate a lot of these kinds of piecemeal expansions as you describe. It's a great way to avoid the situation of huge capital expansions opening all at once and being half-empty at first. They don't seem to think the runway capacity constraint is coming all that soon, since they don't even plan to build the fourth parallel runway in the next couple decades.
I'm still slightly unclear on the gates on the east side of the 193 pier. The existing pier is at ground level. Will the gates not have jetways or will the new section be raised somehow?
One other more technical question...why do Pearson approaches from the south always head straight for the airport and then turn either left or right, head directly away from the airport a good distance before turning back to line up with the runway. Wouldn't it save a lot of fuel and noise if aircraft just headed directly from flying over Lake Ontario to wherever east or west of the airport they need to turn to line up with the runway? I'm sure there's an operational reason that this is easier and I may be missing something big, but the added ~10 minutes of flying multiplied by dozens of aircraft a day surely amounts to quite a bit.
You mean like YYC? What a blunder there
As for traffic coming into YYZ. Planes are coming from North, East, South and West. The bottleneck that would ensue if you sent all of these arrivals to downwind bedposts would be huge. Add to that departures you need to get them up and enroute as well. They’re the ones burning the most gas and making the most noise.
The arrivals you speak of entering over LINNG need to be metered with arrivals coming from the other bedpost fixes. Sending them to a base entry leg to final would require lots of speed restriction further out, increasing ATS workload. Usually things work quite well. The days of the 20nm downwind seem to be gone. They happen but only occasionally.
As bad a rap YYZ gets, you rarely hold. Now if those pilots at WestJet would fly and descend at jet speeds we wouldnt have to slow down 150nm out. 250 knots descent speeds.
Silly owners.
As long as you guys are doing 2 kts taxi speed we’ll fly the programmed descent speeds.
sixtyseven wrote:Whiteguy wrote:sixtyseven wrote:
You mean like YYC? What a blunder there
As for traffic coming into YYZ. Planes are coming from North, East, South and West. The bottleneck that would ensue if you sent all of these arrivals to downwind bedposts would be huge. Add to that departures you need to get them up and enroute as well. They’re the ones burning the most gas and making the most noise.
The arrivals you speak of entering over LINNG need to be metered with arrivals coming from the other bedpost fixes. Sending them to a base entry leg to final would require lots of speed restriction further out, increasing ATS workload. Usually things work quite well. The days of the 20nm downwind seem to be gone. They happen but only occasionally.
As bad a rap YYZ gets, you rarely hold. Now if those pilots at WestJet would fly and descend at jet speeds we wouldnt have to slow down 150nm out. 250 knots descent speeds.
Silly owners.
As long as you guys are doing 2 kts taxi speed we’ll fly the programmed descent speeds.
I think if anyone should be taxiing slow it’d be you guys. Wasn’t your contract going to be signed in December?
Only in Canada could some fool descend from 410 at 260 knots. 290 min anywhere efficient.
YKF wrote:Are there any photos of the construction currently underway or any links available that describe this work?
krisyyz wrote:YKF wrote:Are there any photos of the construction currently underway or any links available that describe this work?
Yes, but it's in a closed FB group, you can request to join. Someone who works there says the work has been dormant for the last few months.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/4346187 ... 519011885/
KrisYYZ
krisyyz wrote:YKF wrote:Are there any photos of the construction currently underway or any links available that describe this work?
Yes, but it's in a closed FB group, you can request to join. Someone who works there says the work has been dormant for the last few months.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/4346187 ... 519011885/
KrisYYZ
Whiteguy wrote:sixtyseven wrote:Whiteguy wrote:
As long as you guys are doing 2 kts taxi speed we’ll fly the programmed descent speeds.
I think if anyone should be taxiing slow it’d be you guys. Wasn’t your contract going to be signed in December?
Only in Canada could some fool descend from 410 at 260 knots. 290 min anywhere efficient.
The contract was done in Dec, flying/taxiing fast or slow wouldn’t have changed anything. Consider it block growth, been stuck behind a few of your MAXs too....not flying any quicker.
sixtyseven wrote:Whiteguy wrote:sixtyseven wrote:
I think if anyone should be taxiing slow it’d be you guys. Wasn’t your contract going to be signed in December?
Only in Canada could some fool descend from 410 at 260 knots. 290 min anywhere efficient.
The contract was done in Dec, flying/taxiing fast or slow wouldn’t have changed anything. Consider it block growth, been stuck behind a few of your MAXs too....not flying any quicker.
I just looked at the “award”. Was hoping for better for you guys. I guess at the end of the day you have a baseline to start from.
master14225 wrote:I'm wondering as to when will AC announce new routes out of YYZ, every other airline has added new routes out of many airports except for AC this year. Also VIE doesn't count because it's just a fleet upgrade to me as OS is part of star alliance.
whywhyzee wrote:[*]master14225 wrote:I'm wondering as to when will AC announce new routes out of YYZ, every other airline has added new routes out of many airports except for AC this year. Also VIE doesn't count because it's just a fleet upgrade to me as OS is part of star alliance.
They likely won't, not much if any. They have already announced their summer schedule and their entire longhaul fleet is allocated. They may introduce some more rouge flying with the addition of the ex WOW A321s, or potentially add in some more max flying to the states. Beyond that, AC is maxed out.
master14225 wrote:Maxed out as in profitable routes or maxed out at YYZ terminal 1?whywhyzee wrote:[*]master14225 wrote:I'm wondering as to when will AC announce new routes out of YYZ, every other airline has added new routes out of many airports except for AC this year. Also VIE doesn't count because it's just a fleet upgrade to me as OS is part of star alliance.
They likely won't, not much if any. They have already announced their summer schedule and their entire longhaul fleet is allocated. They may introduce some more rouge flying with the addition of the ex WOW A321s, or potentially add in some more max flying to the states. Beyond that, AC is maxed out.
master14225 wrote:I'm wondering as to when will AC announce new routes out of YYZ, every other airline has added new routes out of many airports except for AC this year. Also VIE doesn't count because it's just a fleet upgrade to me as OS is part of star alliance.
whywhyzee wrote:Egyptair to debut the 789 on Cairo-Toronto as of next October. Huge improvement in on board product, now just hoping for more frequency in light of their recent bilateral expansion.
Flightsimboy wrote:TK may be next with the Dreamliners.
Flightsimboy wrote:whywhyzee wrote:Egyptair to debut the 789 on Cairo-Toronto as of next October. Huge improvement in on board product, now just hoping for more frequency in light of their recent bilateral expansion.
Another Boeing 777-300ER gone. KE, SV (of course gone gone). PR no more past Mar 31. TK may be next with the Dreamliners. AF, KL & PK have all been sending the 773ER sometimes. EY hasn't bothered to paint the rest of the 773ERs and the ones they send are still in the old colours. You never know BR may be next too. MU too has the A350s.
On a side note the A330NEO is one sexy beast!! Will have to hope TAP comes in a bit early some nice summer day.
whywhyzee wrote:Flightsimboy wrote:whywhyzee wrote:Egyptair to debut the 789 on Cairo-Toronto as of next October. Huge improvement in on board product, now just hoping for more frequency in light of their recent bilateral expansion.
Another Boeing 777-300ER gone. KE, SV (of course gone gone). PR no more past Mar 31. TK may be next with the Dreamliners. AF, KL & PK have all been sending the 773ER sometimes. EY hasn't bothered to paint the rest of the 773ERs and the ones they send are still in the old colours. You never know BR may be next too. MU too has the A350s.
On a side note the A330NEO is one sexy beast!! Will have to hope TAP comes in a bit early some nice summer day.
Worth noting that all the 77Ws replaced have also come with increases in frequency that have produced overall growth.