Jetblue and Moxy Confirm A220 order

LewisNEO · Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:58 pm

Due to its significancy I made a seperate thread about this.

http://www.aircosmosinternational.com/j ... ers-118815

JetBlue Airways has firmed up an order for 60 Airbus A220-300 aircraft, the larger model of the A220 series, previously known as the Bombardier CSeries."

"Separately, Moxy — a U.S. start-up airline — has also confirmed an order for 60 Airbus A220-300s"

The aircrafts will be produced in Mobile. I wonder if Airbus will add them up in 2018 order book.

cledaybuck · Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:19 pm

When are the delivery dates for these aircraft?

keesje · Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:20 pm

The means 477 in the backlog and explains the recent investments in ramping up production. At current production rates, they are booked for .. 15 yrs? Not really feasible. So they made promises to Moxy & Jetblue and who knows. The clock it ticking..

keesje · Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:25 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
When are the delivery dates for these aircraft?

LewisNEO · Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:25 pm

keesje wrote:
The means 477 in the backlog and explains the recent investments in ramping up production. At current production rates, they are booked for .. 15 yrs? Not really feasible. So they made promises to Moxy & Jetblue and who knows. The clock it ticking..

Thnx for the great overview Keesje! 15 years... Well that would be a slow seller then. I haven't seen anything about delivery dates for Moxy.

Sooner787 · Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:30 pm

Sorry if this has been asked before, but what's the timeline to have to new A220 plant in Mobile up and running ?

Momo1435 · Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:40 pm

Airbus press release on the JetBlue order
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html

Airbus press release on the Moxy order
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 220-3.html

Both JetBlue and Moxy will get their 1st deliveries in 2020. I wonder if the line in Mobile will be up and running fast enough for those 1st deliveries, otherwise a couple of the 1st deliveries will have to come from Canada.

burnsie28 · Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:10 pm

keesje wrote:
The means 477 in the backlog and explains the recent investments in ramping up production. At current production rates, they are booked for .. 15 yrs? Not really feasible. So they made promises to Moxy & Jetblue and who knows. The clock it ticking..

Except once Mobile opens up that will ramp up the capacity quite a bit.

wedgetail737 · Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:15 pm

They will be a good replacement for the failing E-190 aircraft.

stranger706 · Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:15 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Sorry if this has been asked before, but what's the timeline to have to new A220 plant in Mobile up and running ?

The new A220 Mobile fal won’t be ready until sometime in 2020. But they are going to begin A220 production by summer of 2019 using existing A320 fal facilities. They are going to section off parts of the a320 fal for this purpose.

thekorean · Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:17 pm

Seems like a big blow to Embraer.

CLTRampRat · Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:26 pm

The other night I saw a jetBlue E190 fire up it’s APU only to have it die. This happened 3 times in a row before they opted for an air start.

Looking forward to seeing some A220s in CLT. Hopefully Delta sends some our way as well.
Can’t wait to see what Moxy turns into.

scbriml · Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:30 pm

LewisNEO wrote:
I wonder if Airbus will add them up in 2018 order book.

Most certainly - both Airbus pressers state the orders were signed in the last week of December.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html

The order was completed the last week of December.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 220-3.html

The order was completed the final week of December.

PlanesNTrains · Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:44 pm

Well that adds 120 to the 2018 total. Should help put to rest the “800” discussion.

chiad · Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:48 pm

LewisNEO wrote:
I wonder if Airbus will add them up in 2018 order book.

Quote
"The order was completed during the last week of December."

spinkid · Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:08 pm

Certainly puts Moxy on more of a firm timeline in terms of them being up and running.

cledaybuck · Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:23 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Well that adds 120 to the 2018 total. Should help put to rest the “800” discussion.

That discussion was about deliveries.

cledaybuck · Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:27 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
Airbus press release on the JetBlue order
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html

Airbus press release on the Moxy order
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 220-3.html

Both JetBlue and Moxy will get their 1st deliveries in 2020. I wonder if the line in Mobile will be up and running fast enough for those 1st deliveries, otherwise a couple of the 1st deliveries will have to come from Canada.

Where did you see the dates for 1st deliveries, I didn't see it in either of the press releases. What do we know about Moxy's start up plans? Because if 1st deliveries are indeed in 2020, that is next year!

neromancer · Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:29 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
Airbus press release on the JetBlue order
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html

Airbus press release on the Moxy order
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 220-3.html

Both JetBlue and Moxy will get their 1st deliveries in 2020. I wonder if the line in Mobile will be up and running fast enough for those 1st deliveries, otherwise a couple of the 1st deliveries will have to come from Canada.

Rumour has it that Mobile will simply start out as a completion centre for the A220. The assembly line in Mirabel is capable of producing quite a few more aircraft a month but completion is a bottle neck. Airbus/BBD would need to find a way to certify green planes to fly from Mirablel to Mobile.

Momo1435 · Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:34 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
Airbus press release on the JetBlue order
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html

Airbus press release on the Moxy order
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 220-3.html

Both JetBlue and Moxy will get their 1st deliveries in 2020. I wonder if the line in Mobile will be up and running fast enough for those 1st deliveries, otherwise a couple of the 1st deliveries will have to come from Canada.
Where did you see the dates for 1st deliveries, I didn't see it in either of the press releases. What do we know about Moxy's start up plans? Because if 1st deliveries are indeed in 2020, that is next year!

It's not in the press releases, but the info on 2020 for both airlines was already known before. Moxy could also be 2021, such a start up will have some flexibility in it's schedule to launch.

Aptivaboy · Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:34 pm

Moxy is the David Neeleman startup that he was raising cash for awhile back, correct? I believe it is, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Given the range of the C-Series (sorry, I just can't call it anything but that) I'm wondering what Moxy's route structure will eventually look like...

At any rate, congrats to Bombardier/Airbus, Jetblue and Moxy. It's always great to see more new jets in the skies.

Revelation · Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:02 pm

thekorean wrote:
Seems like a big blow to Embraer.

Why?

EMB just sold 80% of their commercial business to Boeing for $4.75B. They're sitting pretty.

BBD+QI just sold 50.01% of their business for $1 plus they still have to contribute $350M/year for the next couple years.

BBD has to hope they make enough planes at a large enough profit to get Airbus to pay a similarly large amount for their 30% slice of the business.

They also have to worry that 'Moxy' has a workable business plan or those 60 frames will get dumped onto the used market pretty quick.

Personally I'd rather have the cash in hand.

WayexTDI · Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:10 pm

Revelation wrote:
thekorean wrote:
Seems like a big blow to Embraer.

Why?

EMB just sold 80% of their commercial business to Boeing for $4.75B. They're sitting pretty.

BBD+QI just sold 50.01% of their business for $1 plus they still have to contribute $350M/year for the next couple years.

BBD has to hope they make enough planes at a large enough profit to get Airbus to pay a similarly large amount for their 30% slice of the business.

They also have to worry that 'Moxy' has a workable business plan or those 60 frames will get dumped onto the used market pretty quick.

Personally I'd rather have the cash in hand.

It's a big blow to Embraer as they lost the sales campaign.

A sale campaign is more than selling X airplanes; it's the associated aftermarket that the airframers are making tons of money on, and want to grab a bigger slice of the cake.

Embraer took in $4.75B in cash; that's great, but this won't generate any more revenues for the years to come.

lightsaber · Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:11 pm

Great news! The type needed enough operators to loosen up financing.

So we will have Delta, AirBaltic, JetBlue, and Moxie as the anchor customers. Since all four are healthy, there will be a decent secondary market. I say decent as the A220 needs dozens of more opperators to have an excellent secondary market.

E.g., G4 and AA put a floor on A319 resale prices, keeping a now out of favor model from the scrappers. The A220 needs more customers to achieve that floor. I believe it will now happen.

keesje wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
When are the delivery dates for these aircraft?

Holy 2022! Well, we know when E-jets need maintenance now.

Lightsaber

PlanesNTrains · Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:21 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Well that adds 120 to the 2018 total. Should help put to rest the “800” discussion.
That discussion was about deliveries.

Ah, that’s right - thanks.

Dominion301 · Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:28 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Great news! The type needed enough operators to loosen up financing.

So we will have Delta, AirBaltic, JetBlue, and Moxie as the anchor customers. Since all four are healthy, there will be a decent secondary market. I say decent as the A220 needs dozens of more opperators to have an excellent secondary market.

E.g., G4 and AA put a floor on A319 resale prices, keeping a now out of favor model from the scrappers. The A220 needs more customers to achieve that floor. I believe it will now happen.

keesje wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
When are the delivery dates for these aircraft?

Holy 2022! Well, we know when E-jets need maintenance now.

Lightsaber

Don't forget Air Canada's minimum 45 frame order too as an anchor. I'd also consider Swiss/LH Group an anchor that will likely order many more at some point.

WayexTDI · Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:01 pm

lightsaber wrote:
So we will have Delta, AirBaltic, JetBlue, and Moxie as the anchor customers. Since all four are healthy, there will be a decent secondary market. I say decent as the A220 needs dozens of more opperators to have an excellent secondary market.

I'm not sure how you can say Moxy (apparently a temporary name only) is a healthy airline, since they have yet to put a single passenger up in the air.

Maybe they will succeed (and David Neeleman has a history of founding successful airlines); but calling them healthy is at least premature.

ExMilitaryEng · Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:31 pm

Agreed about the four abreast...
But Boeing was more looking into the engineering capacity.

SteelChair · Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:48 pm

If true that is a sad testimony given that we have so much engineering talent in this country. However I believe the engineers are unionized at Boeing and that would provide an inducement to outsource.

EMBSPBR · Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:06 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Embraer took in $4.75B in cash; that's great, but this won't generate any more revenues for the years to come.

Wrong.
If confirmed the JV (and nothing indicates that will not happen), Embraer will have 20% participation and 50% of the dividends.

RalXWB · Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:11 pm

Congratulations to Airbus. Curious about the next developments

Blueknows · Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:49 pm

Jetblue gets first 220 August 2020 and will go into service in November 2020. Replacing e190 aircraft 1 for 1 till all 220 arrive. Anyone want some used e190s?

LewisNEO · Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:10 pm

scbriml wrote:
LewisNEO wrote:
I wonder if Airbus will add them up in 2018 order book.

Most certainly - both Airbus pressers state the orders were signed in the last week of December.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html
The order was completed the last week of December.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 220-3.html
The order was completed the final week of December.

Thank you, I didn't read these yet.

WeatherPilot · Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:47 pm

Blueknows wrote:
Jetblue gets first 220 August 2020 and will go into service in November 2020. Replacing e190 aircraft 1 for 1 till all 220 arrive. Anyone want some used e190s?

I bet Neeleman snatches them up for Azul. Same cabin experience and everything. He'd just have to change the paint and they're ready to go.

FARmd90 · Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:11 pm

Blueknows wrote:
Jetblue gets first 220 August 2020 and will go into service in November 2020. Replacing e190 aircraft 1 for 1 till all 220 arrive. Anyone want some used e190s?

How is it that JetBlue can get the A220 into service a brand new type for the airline in 3mo. Where as their 321NEO, being the same type as the 320 family with new engines is expected to arrive in the spring of this year but not fly revenue till the fall of 2019??

Blueknows · Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:57 pm

The neo issue has a lot to do with where it’s going to be flying and what makes most sense for revenue.

lightsaber · Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:47 am

Neeleman has a history of well run airlines. Moxie will have enough cash to sustain.

As to Azul, they are heavily invested in the E2 jets. Excluding possibly DL, I do not see any airline opperating the A220 and E2 jets prior to 2030.

Dominion301 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Great news! The type needed enough operators to loosen up financing.

So we will have Delta, AirBaltic, JetBlue, and Moxie as the anchor customers. Since all four are healthy, there will be a decent secondary market. I say decent as the A220 needs dozens of more opperators to have an excellent secondary market.

E.g., G4 and AA put a floor on A319 resale prices, keeping a now out of favor model from the scrappers. The A220 needs more customers to achieve that floor. I believe it will now happen.

keesje wrote:

Holy 2022! Well, we know when E-jets need maintenance now.

Lightsaber

Don't forget Air Canada's minimum 45 frame order too as an anchor. I'd also consider Swiss/LH Group an anchor that will likely order many more at some point.

I should have mentioned AC. The Swiss order, as it stands, isn't large enough to move the needle. I agree they should order more, but until they do...

These two orders ensure A220 sales at or before the Paris airshow.

Lightsaber
PS (late edit):
Sir Baltic is exciting and a significant order. But they just aren't known for buying used.

I very much look forward to the Paris orders.

Super80Fan · Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:35 am

Congrats to both airlines and to Airbus on this wonderful development, can't wait to fly on one when they enter service with either Delta, JetBlue, or Moxie. As to Moxie, if it was started by anyone else I would be concerned but Neeleman has a good track record for starting up successful airlines.

Aesma · Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:45 am

EMBSPBR wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Embraer took in $4.75B in cash; that's great, but this won't generate any more revenues for the years to come.

Wrong.
If confirmed the JV (and nothing indicates that will not happen), Embraer will have 20% participation and 50% of the dividends.

Yeah but there to be dividends there needs to be sales.

Jomar777 · Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:07 am

WeatherPilot wrote:
Blueknows wrote:
Jetblue gets first 220 August 2020 and will go into service in November 2020. Replacing e190 aircraft 1 for 1 till all 220 arrive. Anyone want some used e190s?

I bet Neeleman snatches them up for Azul. Same cabin experience and everything. He'd just have to change the paint and they're ready to go.

No way he will operate A220s with Azul. That would sink the airline in Brazil and hand the market to Gol and LATAM. Brazil would come down much stronger than Boeing in regards to allow a direct competitor to operate in the market regardless of the Boeing deal and/or aircraft performance.

I would say that the chances to have an A220 flying in Brazil operated by a Brazilian Airline are the same as having Qatar Airways operating local flights in the USA.

Jomar777 · Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:14 am

Aesma wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Embraer took in $4.75B in cash; that's great, but this won't generate any more revenues for the years to come.

Wrong.
If confirmed the JV (and nothing indicates that will not happen), Embraer will have 20% participation and 50% of the dividends.

Yeah but there to be dividends there needs to be sales.

And... there ARE. have you not seen the sales volume EMB has achieved even after JetBlue got their order for the A220? They still detain a very healthy order book as well as a major slice of the US Market on RJs.

They also do sell well in Europe and other markets whereas, with the exception of AirBaltic and Swiss, you struggle to see A220s elsewhere (this may change but it has not yet...).

Besides, remember that every single E-Jet sold now is a 100% EMB whereas, BBD has effectivelly sold the project to Airbus and will see not much of it.

JV-wise, EMB will get a significant slice of the sale of the majority to Boeing (plus access to their customers) whereas BBD got nothing. Remember that, now with Airbus on board, it will be very difficult to justify the investiment that the UK Government puts on them (for N Ireland) which may dwindle (they are already laying off people there...).
I have always said that polarization (Airvus x Boeing) would occur in the market even before the Aidbus/BBD deal went through (see previous posts) and am proved right so far... No clear winners... only a reduction on market competition.

scbriml · Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:16 am

Jomar777 wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
Blueknows wrote:
Jetblue gets first 220 August 2020 and will go into service in November 2020. Replacing e190 aircraft 1 for 1 till all 220 arrive. Anyone want some used e190s?

I bet Neeleman snatches them up for Azul. Same cabin experience and everything. He'd just have to change the paint and they're ready to go.

No way he will operate A220s with Azul. That would sink the airline in Brazil and hand the market to Gol and LATAM. Brazil would come down much stronger than Boeing in regards to allow a direct competitor to operate in the market regardless of the Boeing deal and/or aircraft performance.

I would say that the chances to have an A220 flying in Brazil operated by a Brazilian Airline are the same as having Qatar Airways operating local flights in the USA.

Read the post again. :wink2:

Besides that, why would Azul operating A220s sink them?

Dieuwer · Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:31 am

Aptivaboy wrote:
Moxy is the David Neeleman startup that he was raising cash for awhile back, correct? I believe it is, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Given the range of the C-Series (sorry, I just can't call it anything but that) I'm wondering what Moxy's route structure will eventually look like...

At any rate, congrats to Bombardier/Airbus, Jetblue and Moxy. It's always great to see more new jets in the skies.

Moxy is a Marriott brand. Not sure what Neeleman was thinking when picking this name. I hope he has plenty of Trademark lawyers around.

http://moxy-hotels.marriott.com/en

Someone83 · Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:47 am

Dieuwer wrote:
Aptivaboy wrote:
Moxy is the David Neeleman startup that he was raising cash for awhile back, correct? I believe it is, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Given the range of the C-Series (sorry, I just can't call it anything but that) I'm wondering what Moxy's route structure will eventually look like...

At any rate, congrats to Bombardier/Airbus, Jetblue and Moxy. It's always great to see more new jets in the skies.

Moxy is a Marriott brand. Not sure what Neeleman was thinking when picking this name. I hope he has plenty of Trademark lawyers around.

http://moxy-hotels.marriott.com/en

Moxy is just a cover. Neeleman har said the name will be something else, but isn't revealed yet

lugie · Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:51 am

Dieuwer wrote:
Aptivaboy wrote:
Moxy is the David Neeleman startup that he was raising cash for awhile back, correct? I believe it is, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Given the range of the C-Series (sorry, I just can't call it anything but that) I'm wondering what Moxy's route structure will eventually look like...

At any rate, congrats to Bombardier/Airbus, Jetblue and Moxy. It's always great to see more new jets in the skies.

Moxy is a Marriott brand. Not sure what Neeleman was thinking when picking this name. I hope he has plenty of Trademark lawyers around.

http://moxy-hotels.marriott.com/en

Moxy is a project title ("working name") that Neeleman has given his newest venture. It's not unlikely the final airline that eventually comes out of it will have a completely different name

Dieuwer · Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:55 am

lugie wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Aptivaboy wrote:
Moxy is the David Neeleman startup that he was raising cash for awhile back, correct? I believe it is, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Given the range of the C-Series (sorry, I just can't call it anything but that) I'm wondering what Moxy's route structure will eventually look like...

At any rate, congrats to Bombardier/Airbus, Jetblue and Moxy. It's always great to see more new jets in the skies.

Moxy is a Marriott brand. Not sure what Neeleman was thinking when picking this name. I hope he has plenty of Trademark lawyers around.

http://moxy-hotels.marriott.com/en

Moxy is a project title ("working name") that Neeleman has given his newest venture. It's not unlikely the final airline that eventually comes out of it will have a completely different name

"JetCyan" ?

P1aneMad · Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:56 am

Moxy is a provisional name. The actual airline flying will have a different brand.

scbriml · Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:00 am

Dieuwer wrote:
Moxy is a Marriott brand. Not sure what Neeleman was thinking when picking this name. I hope he has plenty of Trademark lawyers around.

Most people can tell the difference between an airline and a hotel.

How many companies are called "United" something? Not a problem.

LewisNEO · Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:39 pm

scbriml wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Moxy is a Marriott brand. Not sure what Neeleman was thinking when picking this name. I hope he has plenty of Trademark lawyers around.

Most people can tell the difference between an airline and a hotel.

How many companies are called "United" something? Not a problem.

True. There is in Europe this travel company brand TUI, and they started also their own airline with is called TUI (Fly).

EMBSPBR · Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:07 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
I bet Neeleman snatches them up for Azul. Same cabin experience and everything. He'd just have to change the paint and they're ready to go.

No way he will operate A220s with Azul.

Jomar777, to my understanding he meant that JetBlue's current E190 fleet would suit Azul, it would be enough to update the colors.

In fact, this will not happen, because Azul has just signed the purchase of 21 new E195-E2, which added to the previous order, reach 51 units of the model, and they will be the first to receive them from the second half of this year ...

Aesma wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Embraer took in $4.75B in cash; that's great, but this won't generate any more revenues for the years to come.

Wrong.
If confirmed the JV (and nothing indicates that will not happen), Embraer will have 20% participation and 50% of the dividends.

Yeah but there to be dividends there needs to be sales.

And what makes you suppose that there will be no sales ???

Or the JV of Boeing and Embraer will just be a non-profit "adventure" ???

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