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T4thH
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:55 am

Momo1435 wrote:
With all the discussion on the A350 cancellations and the A330 UFO order nobody posted the:

Airbus December orders overview:

UNITED AIRLINES: 50x A321neo
PRIVATE CUSTOMER; 1x A319neo
AIR FRANCE: 60x A220-300
UNDISCLOSED: 40x A330-900
NORDIC AVIATION CAPITAL: 6x A220-100
NORDIC AVIATION CAPITAL: 14x A220-300


Cancellations:
BRAATHENS REGIONAL AIRWAYS: -10x A220neo
HONG KONG AIRLINES: -8x A350-900
Governments; Executive and private Jets: -1 A320neo
JETSMART: -7x A321neo
SYNERGY AEROSPACE CORPORATION: -62x A320neo
SYNERGY AEROSPACE CORPORATION: -1x A330-200F
SYNERGY AEROSPACE CORPORATION: -10x A350-900
UNDISCLOSED: -15x A350-900
UTAIR AVIATION: -8x A321ceo
others: -19x A320neo family (there are quite a few order transfers, it's not easy to list them all)

notes:
Synergy cancelled all their outstanding orders.
No Air France A350-900 order
No Spirit A320neo order
No Avianca cancellation yet


SYNERGY AEROSPACE CORPORATION is the owner of the Aviianca group. These are all of the Avianca group cancellations.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:24 am

PepeTheFrog wrote:
China is in no position to take more aircraft right now.


You keep saying this with no explanation. China is taking lots of aircraft - over 30 deliveries from Airbus in December alone.
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astuteman
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:34 am

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
Airbus just posted the December and 2019 orders and delivery summary on twitter.
https://twitter.com/Airbus/status/1215692033949687814
https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/market/ ... eries.html

863 aircrafts delivered, 1,131 new aircraft orders of which 768 are net orders and they have a backlog stands at 7,482 aircraft

Source is links above:

In 2019, deliveries comprised:

A220 Family: 48 v 20 in 2018 (since the A220 became part of the Airbus Family: 1 July 2018)

A320 Family: 642 v 626 in 2018. Of these, 551 were NEO Family v 386 in 2018

A330 Family: 53 v 49 in 2018. Of these, 41 were NEO Family v 3 in 2018

A350 XWB Family: 112 v 93 in 2018. Of these, 25 were A350-1000 v 14 in 2018

A380: 8 v 12 in 2018


IMO a backlog of almost 7500 aircraft is kinda mind boggling.


Thanks for posting.

With the exception of the A380, deliveries up across the board, including the A330, which will upset a few die-hard detractors.

Pretty impressive.

Rgds
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:18 am

These are all the changes on the A320 order book in December 2019 compared to November.

UTAIR AVIATION: -8x A321ceo

Governments; Executive and private Jets: +1x A319neo

Governments; Executive and private Jets: -1x A320neo

AVIATION CAPITAL GROUP: -1x A320neo
INTERJET: +1 A320neo

AZUL FINANCE LLC: -16x A320neo
BOC AVIATION: +16x A320neo

CHINA EASTERN AIRLINES: +6x A320neo
CHINA SOUTHERN AIRLINES: +2x A320neo
QINGDAO AIRLINES: +1x A320neo
SHENZHEN AIRLINES: +2x A320neo
SICHUAN AIRLINES: +1x A320neo
UNDISCLOSED: -16x A320neo

SYNERGY AEROSPACE CORPORATION: -62x A320neo

AVIATION CAPITAL GROUP: +7x A321neo
JETSMART: -7x A321neo

BOC AVIATION: +6x A321neo
AZUL FINANCE LLC: -2x A321neo
TAP AIR PORTUGAL: -4x A321neo

SKY AIRLINE: +10x A321neo (September 2019 order, earlier listed as undisclosed)
AIR CHINA: +3x A320neo
UNDISCLOSED: -9x A321neo

UNITED AIRLINES +50x A321neo

NET: -20x



It all adds up to -20, so this means this are the actual new orders and proper cancellations for the A320 family have been:

UTAIR AVIATION: -8x A321ceo
Governments; Executive and private Jets: +1x A319neo
Governments; Executive and private Jets: -1x A320neo
SYNERGY AEROSPACE CORPORATION: -62x A320neo
UNITED AIRLINES +50x A321neo


The others are just order transfers from and to leasing companies and identifications of unidentified orders (Sky Airline + China). Within the Chinese identifications there were 6 conversions from the A321neo to A320neo.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:34 pm

Boeing December 2019 update

New orders

Southwest 1x 737 MAX
Unidentified 1x 787-8
Unidentified 1x 787-9

The total 787 backlog went down with 2 787-9s. Gone are the 787-8 by ECAir, so there are 2 more 787-9 cancelations. I will look into the other possibles cancelations when I'm home.

2019 totals

737
Gross: 69
Net: -51
Net: -183 (including 2019 ASC 606 Changes)

747
Gross: 0
Net: 0
Net: 0 (including 2019 ASC 606 Changes)

767
Gross: 26
Net: 26
Net: 26 (including 2019 ASC 606 Changes)

777
Gross: 38
Net: -3
Net: -4 (including 2019 ASC 606 Changes)

787
Gross: 113
Net: 82
Net: 74 (including 2019 ASC 606 Changes)
 
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Stitch
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:53 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
The total 787 backlog went down with 2 787-9s. Gone are the 787-8 by ECAir, so there are 2 more 787-9 cancelations. I will look into the other possibles cancelations when I'm home.


There were two 787-9 UFOs ordered on September 14, 2014 (originally booked by Avolon). One was struck from the books in the November update so perhaps the other has been struck in December and that accounts for one of the two cancelled in December?
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:33 pm

The 12 September 2014 order is still there with 1 787-9

These are the 787 changes

ECAir -1 787-8
Saudi Arabian Airlines +1 787-10
Unidentified -1 787-10
Unidentified +1 787-8
Unidentified +1 787-9
Unidentified -3 787-9

breakdown of the -3 787-9
-2 order 30-Mar-2015 (most likely Hainan)
-1 order 06-Nov-2017 (possibly Chinese, but never fully identified)

In the 2019 ASC 606 Changes the number went from -9 to -8, that's probably the ECAir removal from the order book. So it's now proper cancellation.

737 -> The Southwest Airlines orderbook remained the same, so it looks like they reordered 1 frame, maybe a new deal as part of the compensation deal. The 2019 ASC 606 Changes went from -131 to -132, so a minor change there.
 
PepeTheFrog
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Re: Airbus And Boeing 2019 Orders

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:35 pm

Momo1435 wrote:

conversions:
Singapore Airlines -3x 787-10


Why did SQ reduce its 787-10 orders?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:48 pm

Order Summaries for 2019

Image

Note: Boeing net and backlog numbers include ASC 606 adjustments per their website.
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus And Boeing 2019 Orders

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:53 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:

conversions:
Singapore Airlines -3x 787-10


Why did SQ reduce its 787-10 orders?


As Momo1435 posted, they were converted to 1 x 787-8 and 2 x 787-9 for Scoot. So three less for Singapore, and three more for Scoot (but smaller models).
conversions:
Singapore Airlines -3x 787-10
Scoot: +1x 787-8 & +2 787-9
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astuteman
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:36 pm

scbriml wrote:
Order Summaries for 2019

Image

Note: Boeing net and backlog numbers include ASC 606 adjustments per their website.


Nice graphic, Thanks.
Kind of sad to see the reality of no orders for either the 747 or A380 - the end of an era ……

The 767 on the other hand.... :)

Rgds
 
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Stitch
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:56 pm

astuteman wrote:
The 767 on the other hand.... :)


And almost half (11 of 26) for commercial customers (FX and 5X) so it's not just the USAF propping up the program.
 
T4thH
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:44 pm

astuteman wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Order Summaries for 2019

Image

Note: Boeing net and backlog numbers include ASC 606 adjustments per their website.


Nice graphic, Thanks.
Kind of sad to see the reality of no orders for either the 747 or A380 - the end of an era ……

The 767 on the other hand.... :)

Rgds


And what can be easily overseen, as it is in the footnotes:
737 net orders: 22 NG and -73 MAX
777 net orders: 20 777 and -23 777X

Seems to be excluding the 2019 ASC 606 Changes

-23 net 777X orders is not funny.
 
PepeTheFrog
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:57 pm

What on earth is ASC 606, never heard of it before. Is that something new?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:13 am

PepeTheFrog wrote:
What on earth is ASC 606, never heard of it before. Is that something new?


It's a new revenue recognition standard. I'm not an accountant, but I understand it imposes stricter standards on recognising the potential revenue from contracts. For Boeing it forces them to recognise some of the less than solid orders it has on its books. For example, I believe all of Jet's outstanding orders were flagged under ASC 606 - I think it means Boeing recognises they're not going to get the revenue from those orders (because Jet is bust) but the contracts haven't yet been cancelled. So before ASC 606, Boeing would have still counted those orders in its backlog even though they would never have been delivered (to Jet). Now they have to be listed as 'removed'.

Boeing has to comply with ASC 606 whereas I believe Airbus is subject to IFRS 15 (effectively the same thing).

I expect someone else who actually knows will provide a better explanation! :wink2:
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T4thH
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:33 am

PepeTheFrog wrote:
What on earth is ASC 606, never heard of it before. Is that something new?


It is a new standard, how to calculate the sales volume. What has changed, as I know, is, under this new standard, that firm orders, where it is clear, that they will never be realized (as example, company is broken down, has ceased to exist, is bankrupt e.g., so it is a zombie order) under ASC 606 rules, these orders have to be taken out of the order listings.
Regular it is really harsh to get rid of a firm order, the signed contract is there, as soon as it is firmed, the airline has paid money and if the liquidator of the broken down airline is not willed to cancel it, because he hopes to get a part of the money back.....a zombie order.
 
Someone83
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:57 am

Does anyone have the Boeing 2019 order overview per sub-type?
 
DCA350
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:10 am

scbriml wrote:
Order Summaries for 2019

Image

Note: Boeing net and backlog numbers include ASC 606 adjustments per their website.


Wow this has to be the most lopsided race in over a decade.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:29 am

DCA350 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Order Summaries for 2019

Image

Note: Boeing net and backlog numbers include ASC 606 adjustments per their website.


Wow this has to be the most lopsided race in over a decade.


In a two horse race, it doesn’t help if one horse has temporarily come up lame.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:02 am

scbriml wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Order Summaries for 2019

Image

Note: Boeing net and backlog numbers include ASC 606 adjustments per their website.


Wow this has to be the most lopsided race in over a decade.


In a two horse race, it doesn’t help if one horse has temporarily come up lame.


Regarding net orders, is this the worst year in Boeing's history? Even when counting gross orders, it must be a long time ago when Boeing scored less. :sigh:
Interestingly, the 787 and A350 came out with exactly the same number of gross orders :biggrin: Just statistics, I know...
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,346,359,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:20 am

scbriml wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Order Summaries for 2019

Image

Note: Boeing net and backlog numbers include ASC 606 adjustments per their website.


Wow this has to be the most lopsided race in over a decade.


In a two horse race, it doesn’t help if one horse has temporarily come up lame.


One horse being lame has an influence on the delivery side.

On the order side, Boeing fans were talking about the narrow body orders would not be influenced, because the backlog of Airbus narrow bodies being that big and slots far out in time.

The horse being lame should not have any influence on the wide body orders at Boeing.
 
PepeTheFrog
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:01 am

DCA350 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Order Summaries for 2019

Image

Note: Boeing net and backlog numbers include ASC 606 adjustments per their website.


Wow this has to be the most lopsided race in over a decade.


Due to the MAX gronding, 2019 was not even a race.
 
Exeiowa
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:31 am

mjoelnir wrote:
scbriml wrote:
DCA350 wrote:

Wow this has to be the most lopsided race in over a decade.


In a two horse race, it doesn’t help if one horse has temporarily come up lame.


One horse being lame has an influence on the delivery side.

On the order side, Boeing fans were talking about the narrow body orders would not be influenced, because the backlog of Airbus narrow bodies being that big and slots far out in time.

The horse being lame should not have any influence on the wide body orders at Boeing.


With out the line moving the Boeing slots are not getting any closer either, So unless there are more cancelations there would be no availability near in time when it does get going again.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:00 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
One horse being lame has an influence on the delivery side.

On the order side, Boeing fans were talking about the narrow body orders would not be influenced, because the backlog of Airbus narrow bodies being that big and slots far out in time.

The horse being lame should not have any influence on the wide body orders at Boeing.


It would be naive to think that MAX grounding and stopping production hasn't had any affect on the order side, but what influence on widebody orders are you seeing?

Widebody:
Airbus - 217 gross / 51 net
Boeing - 177 gross / 96 net

In a softish widebody market, neither set of numbers is stellar, but Boeing's net was nearly double that of Airbus.
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kurtverbose
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:25 pm

scbriml wrote:
Widebody:
Airbus - 217 gross / 51 net
Boeing - 177 gross / 96 net

In a softish widebody market, neither set of numbers is stellar, but Boeing's net was nearly double that of Airbus.


Let's look at the individual programmes - firstly for Boeing. The 767 is a freighter/military programme. Great that it's still going but it's not a big contributor to overall market share. The 777 lost 4 orders. Typically at this programme stage, certification, orders are less, so let's not comment on the programmes long term health. The 787 had 74 orders. They've announced a production cut.

Now the individual programmes for Airbus. 70 of the Airbus cancellations where the winding up of the A380. The A330 had 89 - that's more than the 787, a plane that's relatively new and doesn't have a long backlog restricting availability. The A350 had 32. That's not great, but it has a larger backlog than the 787 and a lower production rate.

I think when you look at it this way, especially considering the closing of the A380 line, Airbus had the better of Boeing for wide body orders in 2019.
 
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Polot
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:28 pm

kurtverbose wrote:
[

I think when you look at it this way, especially considering the closing of the A380 line, Airbus had the better of Boeing for wide body orders in 2019.

That’s much too simplistic. For example 50 of those A350 orders are because Airbus is closing the A380 line.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:28 pm

If you really want to make a full assesment of the orders you will have to look a bit deeper into the numbers. Who canceled, who ordered, what effect did have on allocated production slots, etc.

As for the MAX, I don't think that anyone expected that it would be a normal year for orders. But many expected a lot of cancelations which didn't happen exept for the Jet Airways order which did not have anything to do with the MAX issues. There also weren't really any A320 orders that would have been certain MAX orders.

The only thing you could say that some A321XLR orders would have gone 797/NMA if Boeing would have launched it. The MAX issues will have played a roll in not launching it in 2019. With the disclaimer that a launch would be a given if Boeing did not get into trouble.
 
Kikko19
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:05 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
If you really want to make a full assesment of the orders you will have to look a bit deeper into the numbers. Who canceled, who ordered, what effect did have on allocated production slots, etc.

As for the MAX, I don't think that anyone expected that it would be a normal year for orders. But many expected a lot of cancelations which didn't happen exept for the Jet Airways order which did not have anything to do with the MAX issues. There also weren't really any A320 orders that would have been certain MAX orders.

The only thing you could say that some A321XLR orders would have gone 797/NMA if Boeing would have launched it. The MAX issues will have played a roll in not launching it in 2019. With the disclaimer that a launch would be a given if Boeing did not get into trouble.

Why would anyone cancel the max? They can do it anyway and anytime. B is anyway so late that airlines can decide if they will want it or not and ask anyway huge discounts for the delay. If they dump it they can not even negotiate with airbus for discounts. Only a dumb ceo would ditch the max ahead.
 
astuteman
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:11 pm

Polot wrote:
kurtverbose wrote:
[

I think when you look at it this way, especially considering the closing of the A380 line, Airbus had the better of Boeing for wide body orders in 2019.

That’s much too simplistic. For example 50 of those A350 orders are because Airbus is closing the A380 line.


Which resulted in the cancellation of 70 x A380's in the stats ........ :)

Rgds
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:03 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
If you really want to make a full assesment of the orders you will have to look a bit deeper into the numbers. Who canceled, who ordered, what effect did have on allocated production slots, etc.

As for the MAX, I don't think that anyone expected that it would be a normal year for orders. But many expected a lot of cancelations which didn't happen exept for the Jet Airways order which did not have anything to do with the MAX issues. There also weren't really any A320 orders that would have been certain MAX orders.

The only thing you could say that some A321XLR orders would have gone 797/NMA if Boeing would have launched it. The MAX issues will have played a roll in not launching it in 2019. With the disclaimer that a launch would be a given if Boeing did not get into trouble.

Why would anyone cancel the max? They can do it anyway and anytime. B is anyway so late that airlines can decide if they will want it or not and ask anyway huge discounts for the delay. If they dump it they can not even negotiate with airbus for discounts. Only a dumb ceo would ditch the max ahead.

The people who predicted it were thinking that no airline would want to fly the MAX again = cancel. Since it didn't happen it's of course more complex than that for plenty of different reasons, including yours.


ps.
It's also worth nothing that Boeing didn't release a year end press release with the total order and delivery numbers. They only released a standard Quarter deliveries update which for Q4 they always did together with the full year end one. Since there isn't really anything to celebrate they must have decided to keep a low profile and skip it this year.
 
CFRPwingALbody
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:46 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
Why would anyone cancel the max? They can do it anyway and anytime. B is anyway so late that airlines can decide if they will want it or not and ask anyway huge discounts for the delay. If they dump it they can not even negotiate with airbus for discounts. Only a dumb ceo would ditch the max ahead.

You have valid points. This are also reasons I expect we have only seen the tip of the iceberg of 737MAX order cancellations.
I think the real flood of cancelations comes when/if the 737MAX is recertified again.
Reasons to cancel 737MAX:
1) It was an inreliable product with single point failure that resulted in ~350 deaths.
2) Boeing can't delivered what they promised. Late deliveries and pilot training required.
3) The pinkle fork crack issue. The 737MAX will only last 30k cycles instead of 90k. If this is not resolved, the economics of the 737MAX will be inferior to the A320 and A220 economics.

I agree that 2019 was a slow year for airplane orders. If Airbus hadn't launched the A321XLR they would have comparable order figures with Boeing.
What also surprises me is the near complete leg of interest in the A350-1000. I compared Airbus O&D dec. 2018 with 2019. The total orders for the A350-1000 stand at 176, an increase of 6 compared to end 2018. Backlog is only 137 planes. I find it odd that there is ~4x as much demand for the A350-900 than the A350-1000. And the A330-900 and 777x (currently) have ~2x as large demand.
For 2020 I expect that Airbus will close CEO passenger production, this will involve several (~40) cancellations .
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:14 pm

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
Why would anyone cancel the max? They can do it anyway and anytime. B is anyway so late that airlines can decide if they will want it or not and ask anyway huge discounts for the delay. If they dump it they can not even negotiate with airbus for discounts. Only a dumb ceo would ditch the max ahead.

You have valid points. This are also reasons I expect we have only seen the tip of the iceberg of 737MAX order cancellations.
I think the real flood of cancelations comes when/if the 737MAX is recertified again.
Reasons to cancel 737MAX:
1) It was an inreliable product with single point failure that resulted in ~350 deaths.
2) Boeing can't delivered what they promised. Late deliveries and pilot training required.
3) The pinkle fork crack issue. The 737MAX will only last 30k cycles instead of 90k. If this is not resolved, the economics of the 737MAX will be inferior to the A320 and A220 economics.

I agree that 2019 was a slow year for airplane orders. If Airbus hadn't launched the A321XLR they would have comparable order figures with Boeing.
What also surprises me is the near complete leg of interest in the A350-1000. I compared Airbus O&D dec. 2018 with 2019. The total orders for the A350-1000 stand at 176, an increase of 6 compared to end 2018. Backlog is only 137 planes. I find it odd that there is ~4x as much demand for the A350-900 than the A350-1000. And the A330-900 and 777x (currently) have ~2x as large demand.
For 2020 I expect that Airbus will close CEO passenger production, this will involve several (~40) cancellations .


There is actually no reason to close off ceo production. At least not in 2020 as Delta will get the last ones in 2021. Apart from that why? Just look at how different the situation for Booing would be, if standard 737NG were still produced.
Airbus will produce you a ceo as long as somebody wants them.
 
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reidar76
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:12 pm

Let's sum up the decade. All numbers from the official websites.

Main observations:
- The A330 has outsold the 787 in the last decade. Surprised?
- The 777 has been a huge sales success. Much of the difference can be explained by large freighter orders for the 777 (232 net aircraft), and note that large A350 launch orders came before 2010. A350 entered service in the middle of the decade.
- Airbus has gradually gained market share in the single aisle market segment.

A330 entered service in 1994, the 777 in 1995, 787 in 2011 and A350 in 2015.

In the single aisle segment the 737 entered service n 1967, A320 in 1988, 737NG in 1997, A220 in 2016.

Image

Image

Image
 
T4thH
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:58 pm

reidar76 wrote:
Let's sum up the decade. All numbers from the official websites.

Main observations:
- The A330 has outsold the 787 in the last decade. Surprised?
- The 777 has been a huge sales success. Much of the difference can be explained by large freighter orders for the 777 (232 net aircraft), and note that large A350 launch orders came before 2010. A350 entered service in the middle of the decade.
- Airbus has gradually gained market share in the single aisle market segment.

A330 entered service in 1994, the 777 in 1995, 787 in 2011 and A350 in 2015.

In the single aisle segment the 737 entered service n 1967, A320 in 1988, 737NG in 1997, A220 in 2016.

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And what is stated in the Boeing order listing in the footnotes only: Net orders for the 777X are -23 jets. So the freighter B777w versions sold well as also few 777w. So the "history" jets still sold, but not the "future" B777X versions and this is bad.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:41 pm

astuteman wrote:
Polot wrote:
kurtverbose wrote:
[

I think when you look at it this way, especially considering the closing of the A380 line, Airbus had the better of Boeing for wide body orders in 2019.

That’s much too simplistic. For example 50 of those A350 orders are because Airbus is closing the A380 line.


Which resulted in the cancellation of 70 x A380's in the stats ........ :)

Rgds

Right. And looking at those stats, Boeing widebody sales for the year look just fine.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
travelhound
Posts: 1918
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 9:13 pm

Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:53 pm

I’d suggest the Boeing order situation (minus MAX) is not as dire as the year tally would suggest. There are probably airlines waiting in the wings (sorry about the pun) to place orders. They could be waiting for the MAX situation to cool so they don’t associate themselves with the bad press.
 
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Stitch
Posts: 26588
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:50 am

Bloomberg Intelligence believes Airbus and Boeing might need to do rate reductions on their widebody families due to trade issues/sanctions, orders from financially weak airlines and a softening of future demand: https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/ ... e8227d4b29
 
PepeTheFrog
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:38 pm

Re: Airbus and Boeing 2019 Orders

Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:44 am

Stitch wrote:
Bloomberg Intelligence believes Airbus and Boeing might need to do rate reductions on their widebody families due to trade issues/sanctions, orders from financially weak airlines and a softening of future demand: https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/ ... e8227d4b29


The high production rates are the result of the large backlogs that the 787 and A350 have build up during the early days when the programs faced delays. So obviously, when that backlog comes down, production will go down too.

And then there is the global economic cooldown.
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