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MoKa777
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Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:23 pm

Hello everyone.

According to articles I have read, Arkia of Israel received the first A321LR in the fourth quarter of last year (2018). Their configuration is 220 seats in one class. This is one current airline example.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 321lr.html

The A321LR will open many thin medium-haul routes for airlines that will require a fairly high standard J-class seat.

JetBlue currently have such a cabin on their Mint branded A321ceo.

Are Lingus plans to use the Vantage Solo seat according to articles I have read - the Vantage Solo seat having been designed by Thomson specifically for NB aircraft. This seat is particularly interesting because it is a 1-1 direct aisle-access seat design with a seat pitch from 33-inches! I assume it will have this 33-inch pitch in the wider A32X fuselage and shallower angles (ie. greater pitch) on narrower NB like the 737, for example.

https://www.ausbt.com.au/aer-lingus-lie ... an-flights

https://www.thompsonaero.com/seating-range/vantagesolo/

I would be keen to hear what other A321LR customers have planned and what innovative designs these airlines and seat manufacturers have in store.
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parapente
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:42 pm

I read/saw somewhere that Arkia are installing 'proper' economy seats with plenty of padding all round ( a welcome change) and a decent pitch to boot about 31".But installing 220 seats has a range penalty,I think it was down to 3,600nm.But since they are not trying to go TATL from Israel I believe this covers all the destinations they require.
New Air Lingus sleeper seats look good imho.
 
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keesje
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:18 pm

Lower density, but really depends on the airlines. AA does similar Transcon , 102 seats..

Image
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:39 pm

keesje wrote:
Lower density, but really depends on the airlines. AA does similar Transcon , 102 seats..

Image

That would be one heck of an A321xlr configuration!

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shamrock350
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:56 pm

MoKa777 wrote:
Are Lingus plans to use the Vantage Solo seat according to articles I have read - the Vantage Solo seat having been designed by Thomson specifically for NB aircraft. This seat is particularly interesting because it is a 1-1 direct aisle-access seat design with a seat pitch from 33-inches! I assume it will have this 33-inch pitch in the wider A32X fuselage and shallower angles (ie. greater pitch) on narrower NB like the 737, for example.


Aer Lingus have yet to confirm this but the seat map in their booking engine indicates it will be the same Thompson Vantage seat which currently features on their A330 and 757 fleet in a similar staggered configuration. This is obviously subject to change but if the current seat fits comfortably on a 757, it should have no problem on the A321LR and won't impact economy class pitch considering the new A321LR door configuration.

Aer Lingus plan 184 seats on their A321LR fleet, 16 J and 168 Y with Business Class featuring a near identical layout to the 757 but with an additional row. There will also be an additional row in economy bringing the total to 10 extra seats over the 757 fleet.

EDIT:

The actual planned seat map.

Image

Ignore the different colours for economy class, this is just to indicate Aer Lingus' seat selection fees and not a difference in product.
 
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MoKa777
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:51 pm

shamrock350 wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:
Are Lingus plans to use the Vantage Solo seat according to articles I have read - the Vantage Solo seat having been designed by Thomson specifically for NB aircraft. This seat is particularly interesting because it is a 1-1 direct aisle-access seat design with a seat pitch from 33-inches! I assume it will have this 33-inch pitch in the wider A32X fuselage and shallower angles (ie. greater pitch) on narrower NB like the 737, for example.


Aer Lingus have yet to confirm this but the seat map in their booking engine indicates it will be the same Thompson Vantage seat which currently features on their A330 and 757 fleet in a similar staggered configuration. This is obviously subject to change but if the current seat fits comfortably on a 757, it should have no problem on the A321LR and won't impact economy class pitch considering the new A321LR door configuration.

Aer Lingus plan 184 seats on their A321LR fleet, 16 J and 168 Y with Business Class featuring a near identical layout to the 757 but with an additional row. There will also be an additional row in economy bringing the total to 10 extra seats over the 757 fleet.

EDIT:

The actual planned seat map.

Image

Ignore the different colours for economy class, this is just to indicate Aer Lingus' seat selection fees and not a difference in product.


Oooh thanks for this Shamrock350!

Is that 3 lavatories for Y?

And will the resultant galley space be sufficient for a ~6 hour TATL service?
Last edited by MoKa777 on Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MoKa777
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:54 pm

Will mid-cabin lavs be possible with the ACF A321LR?

AA has a lav for J aft of the no. 2 door according to the seat map provided by Keesje.
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:04 pm

 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:12 pm

travelhound wrote:


Thanks for sharing. It is good to see an actual order number.

Airline Number of orders
Norwegian Air 30
Jetstar Airways 18
Air Transat 15
TAP Portugal 10
Aer Lingus 8
Air Arabia 6
Air Astana 4
SATA 4
Peach 2
Primera Air 2
Unassigned 37

Total Orders 136

Source: CAPA Fleet Database

I suspect there will be more.
 
EK770
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:34 pm

That toilet/galley configuration on the EI 321 LR is going to be an absolute nightmare. There is no way crew will be able to set up service for 165 odd pax in that tiny space with pax queueing up for the loo blocking everything at the same time. Not going to work on a long haul flight. I’m honestly shocked EI crew allowed this!
 
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:04 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
travelhound wrote:

Thanks for sharing.

Indeed the order info is interesting.

Also the analysis:

While the A321LR has the potential of becoming a game changer on long haul routes of up to eight hours, the new type will have constraints in the emerging long haul low cost segment. It is for example unable to operate for eight hours in the maximum 240 seat configuration.

Airlines will therefore have to opt for a lower density configuration to take full advantage of the A321LR’s increased range
, which is one main benefit of the new type. A low density configuration generally does not work for short haul LCCs or for many full service airlines.

This suggests that on long narrowbody routes of over seven hours the A321LR could become a niche operation, limited to markets with high enough yields and premium traffic to justify relatively high costs. The A321LR costs more to buy than the standard A321neo and has relatively high operating costs on long routes; obviously these costs have to be recovered for an airline to justify the investment.

And:

The six full service A321LR operators plan two class configurations with between 166 and 200 seats. Air Astana has the least dense configuration, opting for 16 lie flat business and 150 economy seats. This matches the configuration Air Astana currently has on its 757 fleet.

The A321XLR won't make things better because it is not adding more MTOW as it adds more fuel capacity. It'll have an impressive max range value but it will have to have even lower density to use that range.

The current A321 is a great product but it is not going to be competitive on payload/range with NMA head to head. It'll be interesting to see what Airbus does about that.
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:49 pm

EK770 wrote:
That toilet/galley configuration on the EI 321 LR is going to be an absolute nightmare. There is no way crew will be able to set up service for 165 odd pax in that tiny space with pax queueing up for the loo blocking everything at the same time. Not going to work on a long haul flight. I’m honestly shocked EI crew allowed this!


Me too! Having a space flex galley on LCCs or domestic operations is one thing, but to have them on aircraft that will be mainly flying transatlantic is another. I recently had my first experience of a space flex layout on an EasyJet A320, Was absolutely fine for a short haul flight with BOB service, but I did notice that the galley area was TINY! Where will the cabin crew relax between service runs on an Atlantic flight? If that seat map is accurate, then I cant imagine this aircraft will be very popular with EI cabin crew.
 
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:35 pm

TAP Air Portugal will feature a cabin with 16 J full-flat seats in a staggered configuration (similar to Aer Lingus) and only 152 Y recliner seats, which is among the lowest seat counts foreseen for the LR. It sounds quite reasonable given that TAP will be using these LR mostly on TATL routes.

https://onemileatatime.com/tap-air-portugal-a321lr/
 
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:35 pm

I guess the other airlines will be keeping an eye on Arkia's A321LR and see how far they actually fly them nonstop with 220 pax until they start getting their own and decide on routes.

I think Airbus is being conservative to avoid having to pay compensation for shorter-than-advertised range. The A321LR will proably be able to fly 8 hours with 225 pax and their bags. Their test aircraft flew 11 hours nonstop Seychelles - TLS with the equivalent of 172 pax (and their bags, I assume).
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:43 pm

MoKa777 wrote:
Will mid-cabin lavs be possible with the ACF A321LR?

AA has a lav for J aft of the no. 2 door according to the seat map provided by Keesje.


I don’t see why there couldn’t be a mid cabin LAV where the no.2 door used to be. United and Delta both put a LAV right behind 1st on the 739 where there never was a door. And even if the 321LR couldnt accept that LAV there for some reason there is still door 3 they can put LAVs
Last edited by FARmd90 on Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:44 pm

MoKa777 wrote:
Will mid-cabin lavs be possible with the ACF A321LR?

AA has a lav for J aft of the no. 2 door according to the seat map provided by Keesje.


I don’t see why there couldn’t be a mid cabin LAV where the no.2 door used to be. United and Delta both put a LAV right behind 1st on the 739 where there never was a door. And even if the 321LR couldn’t accept that LAV there for some reason there is still door 3 they can put LAVs
 
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:00 am

EK770 wrote:
That toilet/galley configuration on the EI 321 LR is going to be an absolute nightmare. There is no way crew will be able to set up service for 165 odd pax in that tiny space with pax queueing up for the loo blocking everything at the same time. Not going to work on a long haul flight. I’m honestly shocked EI crew allowed this!


I guess there will be a galley forward of R2, opposite the third toilet. The area is shown as white space on the seat plan. IAG want common galley/toilet layouts on their newly delivered aircraft. My guess is that EI are stuck with SpaceFlex, with additional galley space forward of the doors.
 
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:01 pm

CRJ900 wrote:
I guess the other airlines will be keeping an eye on Arkia's A321LR and see how far they actually fly them nonstop with 220 pax until they start getting their own and decide on routes.

I think Airbus is being conservative to avoid having to pay compensation for shorter-than-advertised range. The A321LR will proably be able to fly 8 hours with 225 pax and their bags. Their test aircraft flew 11 hours nonstop Seychelles - TLS with the equivalent of 172 pax (and their bags, I assume).

I think we should wait for the actual routes being flown rather than using the test flight as being indicative of anything.

It was actually 162 simulated passengers ( ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... el-447220/ ) plus 11 technicians and five crew, and the simulation was "plastic pipes filled with water and heated to simulate the cabin environment when actual people are on board for hours" ala https://twitter.com/AlexInAir/status/959381227861172224 and https://www.wired.com/2014/04/airbus-a3 ... t-testing/ :

Image

No mention of luggage and plenty of mentions of needing 3 ACTs which would make it problematic to use this flight to support some of the claims being made here.

We had a five page thread ( viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1390275 ) that went through all of this.

That's why I posted the stuff I did earlier: we're getting info about how actual airlines will configure the jet and that is more interesting than a bunch of plastic pipes being used to simulate cabin conditions.
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:32 pm

lightsaber wrote:
keesje wrote:
Lower density, but really depends on the airlines. AA does similar Transcon , 102 seats..

Image

That would be one heck of an A321xlr configuration!

Lightsaber


It will be even better - Keesje's AA plan is the to-be-superseded old door configuration
 
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:39 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
keesje wrote:
Lower density, but really depends on the airlines. AA does similar Transcon , 102 seats..

Image

That would be one heck of an A321xlr configuration!

Lightsaber


It will be even better - Keesje's AA plan is the to-be-superseded old door configuration


Not sure, someone who paid a First class ticket doesn't want to sit/sleep with his/her head
10 inch from the lavatory door :expressionless:
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:52 pm

Revelation wrote:
The current A321 is a great product but it is not going to be competitive on payload/range with NMA head to head. It'll be interesting to see what Airbus does about that.


Good observation.
Question is if Airbus has to go head to head with the NMA. If the A321(X)LR can offer similar CASM compared to the NMA, it might be competative enough. NMA can be a beast when the airlines can fill them.
 
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:55 pm

shamrock350 wrote:
Aer Lingus have yet to confirm this but the seat map in their booking engine indicates it will be the same Thompson Vantage seat which currently features on their A330 and 757 fleet in a similar staggered configuration. This is obviously subject to change but if the current seat fits comfortably on a 757, it should have no problem on the A321LR and won't impact economy class pitch considering the new A321LR door configuration.


It's going to be the same seat as that on the 757s. I also expect that as the 757s are removed from service, the seats will simply be moved over to the A321s. They're all still very new, so it certainly won't be a new seat going into the A321s.

EK770 wrote:
That toilet/galley configuration on the EI 321 LR is going to be an absolute nightmare. There is no way crew will be able to set up service for 165 odd pax in that tiny space with pax queueing up for the loo blocking everything at the same time. Not going to work on a long haul flight. I’m honestly shocked EI crew allowed this!


I'm both surprised and not surprised at the space flex option. I imagine there will be some of the economy class service items and trolleys in the forward galley as well, so it will all work out. They wouldn't be doing it if it didn't.

b4thefall wrote:
Where will the cabin crew relax between service runs on an Atlantic flight? If that seat map is accurate, then I cant imagine this aircraft will be very popular with EI cabin crew.


The crew will sit on their jumpseats or stand up in the galley area as they already do. Also, you have to remember that Ireland to the east coast is quite short. The flights will range from 5 hours and 30 minutes to 7 hours on average. It's not like the crew need to sleep, so I think it'll be fine enough.
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:09 pm

I wonder if five abreast premium economy seats might be a good option for the A321LR ?

Norwegian could use the same premium economy seats that they have on their 787.
 
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MoKa777
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:30 am

reidar76 wrote:
I wonder if five abreast premium economy seats might be a good option for the A321LR ?

Norwegian could use the same premium economy seats that they have on their 787.


I have also wondered about that.
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:31 am

MoKa777 wrote:
reidar76 wrote:
I wonder if five abreast premium economy seats might be a good option for the A321LR ?

Norwegian could use the same premium economy seats that they have on their 787.


I have also wondered about that.


I would think they could only do 2-2 like domestic First (AA for example use the same seats for international Premium Economy and domestic First). Otherwise you'll end up with an awkward overhead bin config like on CRJs with First.
 
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:35 am

reidar76 wrote:
I wonder if five abreast premium economy seats might be a good option for the A321LR ?

Norwegian could use the same premium economy seats that they have on their 787.


The problem with 5 abreast for premium economy is that the middle seat is not of equal value. Many would prefer an aisle seat in the economy cabin. Other airplanes block the middle seat or give it away for free when they stay with 6 abreast.
 
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:05 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
reidar76 wrote:
I wonder if five abreast premium economy seats might be a good option for the A321LR ?

Norwegian could use the same premium economy seats that they have on their 787.


The problem with 5 abreast for premium economy is that the middle seat is not of equal value.


But middle seats in Premium Economy are well-known. 787s and A330s are 7 abreast (one middle seat). A350s are either 7 or 8 abreast (one or two middle seats). 777s are 8 abreast in PE, giving us two middle seats.

If widebodies can have a middle seat in PE, I don't see why narrowbody PE at 5 abreast is out of the question.
 
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:57 am

I think that the A321LR could be more suitable for long haul LCC operations if a five abreast premium seating was an option. Four abreast waist a lot of space on the A321. Long haul business class should have direct aisle access for all seats, while premium economy don't. Five abreast premium seats is very efficient use of cabin space on the A321.

For example, Norwegian has these premium economy seats at 7 abreast on their 787 fleet. Pitch 46.

On the A321LR, operators should keep the number of seats at 195 or lower. 195 is the exit limit with (previously) door 3 plugged. Having only overwing emergency exits enabled, is efficient use of cabin space. That is how Air Lingus gets more seats, at same or better pitch, in the A321LR than the 757.

Image

Image
 
Someone83
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:10 am

reidar76 wrote:
I wonder if five abreast premium economy seats might be a good option for the A321LR ?


Remains too be seen, but SAS has plans to install premium economy on their A321LRs, so it would have to be either 4 or 5 abreast
 
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:36 pm

ANA's LCC Peaxh said they're considering premium class on their upcoming A321LR
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MoKa777
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:13 pm

Based on the Airbus ACAP for the A321, they have 2 different 6-abreast options (around page 60).

17-inch seats with a wider aisle and the other one at 18-inches per seat with a slightly narrower aisle, although still fairly wide enough at 19-inches.

Maybe an airline can just use these 2 options. Y at 17" width/30-31" pitch and PE at 18" width/38-40" pitch. Of course, there won't be the usual wide armrest between seats in PE but this is a NB aircraft after all... something has got to give.
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MoKa777
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:16 pm

c933103 wrote:
ANA's LCC Peaxh said they're considering premium class on their upcoming A321LR


I'm assuming their premium class will be similar to US domestic F. Nothing too fancy.
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:27 pm

reidar76 wrote:
I wonder if five abreast premium economy seats might be a good option for the A321LR ?

Norwegian could use the same premium economy seats that they have on their 787.

It wouldn't need to be 5 abreast. I think you can fit DY's premium economy seats at 6 abreast but with a narrower aisle. DY's PE seats are only 19" wide. LH's is also just 19". Even an 18" wide PE seat would still be wider than UA's "PE" on their 787's which is only 17.3" or KLM's at 17.5" wide.
Premium economy seats vary greatly from 17.3" wide (regular Y width with more leg room), to as much as 21" wide. There's no global standard for PE. Not even for the amount of recline. CX's premium economy seat on their 77W's is only 19.5" wide for example while VS's is 21" wide. Even within the same airline you'll find different PE seats. There's a huge variety out there. For an 8 hour TATL flight I think an 18"-19" wide seat with more recline and leg rests would be sufficient for premium economy.
 
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:30 pm

MoKa777 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
ANA's LCC Peaxh said they're considering premium class on their upcoming A321LR


I'm assuming their premium class will be similar to US domestic F. Nothing too fancy.

But as a LCC they can already allow people to pay extra for exit row seats that have more space, and also pay extra for an empty seat next to you if there are free space. An American Domestic-F-styled-premium-class would not bring anything new to them. So I guess they're talking about something like AirAsia/Jetstar/Scoot/Spirit's premium classes.

Edit: wait I guess I confused American domestic first with the European domestic first
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:31 pm

airbazar wrote:
reidar76 wrote:
I wonder if five abreast premium economy seats might be a good option for the A321LR ?

Norwegian could use the same premium economy seats that they have on their 787.

It wouldn't need to be 5 abreast. I think you can fit DY's premium economy seats at 6 abreast but with a narrower aisle. DY's PE seats are only 19" wide. LH's is also just 19". Even an 18" wide PE seat would still be wider than UA's "PE" on their 787's which is only 17.3" or KLM's at 17.5" wide.
Premium economy seats vary greatly from 17.3" wide (regular Y width with more leg room), to as much as 21" wide. There's no global standard for PE. Not even for the amount of recline. CX's premium economy seat on their 77W's is only 19.5" wide for example while VS's is 21" wide. Even within the same airline you'll find different PE seats. There's a huge variety out there. For an 8 hour TATL flight I think an 18"-19" wide seat with more recline and leg rests would be sufficient for premium economy.


The 19" width does not take armrests into consideration. Factor those in, and a row of 3 DY premium seats likely take up another 12+ inches vs a typical economy seat. Merge armrests so people have to share, and you have nothing but extra legroom economy.

A premium class 5 abreast in a 2-3 config stinks not just for the person in the middle seat, but it also creates a 'double excuse me' seat for the person in the window. Someone may know of one, but the only airline I know of that has a premium config like that would be the handful of A319s with SAA that mainly fly <3 hour flights.
 
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:41 pm

b4thefall wrote:
EK770 wrote:
That toilet/galley configuration on the EI 321 LR is going to be an absolute nightmare. There is no way crew will be able to set up service for 165 odd pax in that tiny space with pax queueing up for the loo blocking everything at the same time. Not going to work on a long haul flight. I’m honestly shocked EI crew allowed this!


Me too! Having a space flex galley on LCCs or domestic operations is one thing, but to have them on aircraft that will be mainly flying transatlantic is another. I recently had my first experience of a space flex layout on an EasyJet A320, Was absolutely fine for a short haul flight with BOB service, but I did notice that the galley area was TINY! Where will the cabin crew relax between service runs on an Atlantic flight? If that seat map is accurate, then I cant imagine this aircraft will be very popular with EI cabin crew.


- on a 6/7 hour flight there plenty of time for service
- crew aren’t there to relax
 
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Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:03 pm

keesje wrote:
Lower density, but really depends on the airlines. AA does similar Transcon , 102 seats..

Image



The only issue is, yes its lower density.. but those seats are not light.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3314
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Airbus A321LR current and future airline seat configurations

Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:32 am

keesje wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
That would be one heck of an A321xlr configuration!

Lightsaber


It will be even better - Keesje's AA plan is the to-be-superseded old door configuration


Not sure, someone who paid a First class ticket doesn't want to sit/sleep with his/her head
10 inch from the lavatory door :expressionless:


the passenger door alone on AA is 29.88" opening, so I'm sure they can add closets to make up the difference.

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