User avatar
Taxi645
Topic Author
Posts: 317
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:29 pm

AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:04 am

Schiphol has reach it maximum allowed flights of 500.000 yearly. For now it can only grow by flying more passengers per flight.

In Dutch:

https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... rs-in-2018

The number of passengers grew with 3.7% to 71 milion.

Incidently at the end of this month it will open a 3rd A380 gate.

Again in Dutch:

https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... irbus-a380


Wonder if AMS will have much room for A321XLR and NMA type planes.

Any other European Airports reaching their maximum allowed flights?
Last edited by Taxi645 on Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Innovation is seeing opportunity before obstacle.
 
SeanM1997
Posts: 291
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:27 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:11 am

London Heathrow is forecast to reach 479,000 this year - and since they have a cap of 480,000 they are also full. Heathrow will also serve approximately 80 million passengers in 2018, 9 million more than Amsterdam. Which is surprising since Amsterdam have 20,000 more annual movements. The only way Amsterdam will be able to expand is larger aircraft - maybe KLM should look to use more B737 instead of E175 and E190?
 
User avatar
frigatebird
Posts: 1671
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:02 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:30 am

Taxi645 wrote:
Wonder if AMS will have much room for A321XLR and NMA type planes.

Doubt it. NMA (B797) perhaps as instead of narrowbodies, airlines like TK, SU and UX are already flying A330s to AMS, as they cannot expand by adding frequencies.
RTM could be a possibility for A321LR in the future.

SeanM1997 wrote:
London Heathrow is forecast to reach 479,000 this year - and since they have a cap of 480,000 they are also full. Heathrow will also serve approximately 80 million passengers in 2018, 9 million more than Amsterdam. Which is surprising since Amsterdam have 20,000 more annual movements. The only way Amsterdam will be able to expand is larger aircraft - maybe KLM should look to use more B737 instead of E175 and E190?

A 737 may be too large for regional routes served by E90s now, but I wouldn't be surprised to see KL ordering E2-195s to replace older E190s.
KL is already replacing 4 737-700s with -800s this year, and 787-10s will replace 744 combis. I expect this trend to continue. Rumor is all 737-700s are on their way out, both for KL and HV. Additional 77W could be on their way to KL as well.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
Blerg
Posts: 2340
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:46 am

Are there any other European airlines besides SU and TK that send widebodies to AMS?
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14311
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:48 am

What may also have to happen is to force some shorter flights out where good train connections available and encourage airlines to reduce frequency at low-demand times of the week or year by adjusting fees to airlines.
 
A388
Posts: 7884
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:52 am

Interesting development for AMS indeed. I wonder which airlines will upgauge their capacity to AMS with larger aircraft. Can the law be changed to allow AMS to have more allowed flights? I can imagine such a move won't be easy but can it be accomplished?

A388
 
Blerg
Posts: 2340
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:53 am

ltbewr wrote:
What may also have to happen is to force some shorter flights out where good train connections available and encourage airlines to reduce frequency at low-demand times of the week or year by adjusting fees to airlines.


A good example of that would be AMS-BRU but I think KL wouldn't be too happy as I suppose they carry a great deal of transfer passengers.

Is there a limit to what is the smallest plane that can be sent to AMS? Maybe banning planes with less than 70 seats?
 
User avatar
GEUltraFan9XGTF
Posts: 267
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:31 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:32 pm

Is this thread trying to be a not so subtle A380 sales pitch?

Airport expansion is always an option, either at hubs like AMS/BRU/DUS or perhaps give opportunity to smaller ones like EIN.
© 2019. All statements are my own. The use of my statements, including by journalists, YouTube vloggers like "DJ's Aviation", etc. without my written consent is strictly prohibited.
 
User avatar
frigatebird
Posts: 1671
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:02 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:36 pm

Blerg wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
What may also have to happen is to force some shorter flights out where good train connections available and encourage airlines to reduce frequency at low-demand times of the week or year by adjusting fees to airlines.


A good example of that would be AMS-BRU but I think KL wouldn't be too happy as I suppose they carry a great deal of transfer passengers.

Is there a limit to what is the smallest plane that can be sent to AMS? Maybe banning planes with less than 70 seats?


No, it doesn't work that way. Airlines can use the slots in whatever way they deem profitable. Besides, off peak you don't want to use large aircraft.
What AMS will introduce are additional fees on noise pollution. I believe no less than 7 categories have created. That way they want to stimulate airlines to deploy their quietest and most efficient aircraft to AMS. Tuifly and Corendon have accelerated introduction of the 737MAX as a result, rumor is that if additional slots will be released these will go to the airlines which have the quietest aircraft.

Moving short flights out for railway connections is indeed on the cards. Brussels and Paris by train are already sometimes more favorable, with AMS getting a direct TGV connection with CDG this year. German cities will be more difficult. And it's not KLM that's opposing rail. In fact, KL wants better rail connections! This will free up slots for longer (more profitable) flights. And KL is a partner in the company operating the rail connection between Amsterdam and Brussels... Problem is European governments (Netherlands included) aren't willing to invest in better rail connections :roll:
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
sandyb123
Posts: 914
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:29 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:39 pm

frigatebird wrote:
A 737 may be too large for regional routes served by E90s now, but I wouldn't be surprised to see KL ordering E2-195s to replace older E190s.
KL is already replacing 4 737-700s with -800s this year, and 787-10s will replace 744 combis. I expect this trend to continue. Rumor is all 737-700s are on their way out, both for KL and HV. Additional 77W could be on their way to KL as well.


KLM often uses a mix of aircraft to AMS. I work in Amsterdam sometimes and find that KLM use a mix of E-jets and 737s on the EDI route. I'm assuming this is based on demand rather than capacity?

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Airport expansion is always an option, either at hubs like AMS/BRU/DUS or perhaps give opportunity to smaller ones like EIN.


Is this a case that the airport is at capacity or that this is a legislative question based on noise or some such other measure?

Sandyb123
Member of the mile high club
 
User avatar
frigatebird
Posts: 1671
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:02 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:42 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Is this thread trying to be a not so subtle A380 sales pitch?

Airport expansion is always an option, either at hubs like AMS/BRU/DUS or perhaps give opportunity to smaller ones like EIN.

Larger aircraft doesn't automatically mean the A380.
This is how KL can grow without additional slots:
E75/90 to E2-195 or A220;
737-700/800 to 737-9/10 or A321;
A330-200/300, 747combi to 787-9/10 or A350;
77E/77W to 777X.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
User avatar
frigatebird
Posts: 1671
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:02 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:47 pm

sandyb123 wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
A 737 may be too large for regional routes served by E90s now, but I wouldn't be surprised to see KL ordering E2-195s to replace older E190s.
KL is already replacing 4 737-700s with -800s this year, and 787-10s will replace 744 combis. I expect this trend to continue. Rumor is all 737-700s are on their way out, both for KL and HV. Additional 77W could be on their way to KL as well.


KLM often uses a mix of aircraft to AMS. I work in Amsterdam sometimes and find that KLM use a mix of E-jets and 737s on the EDI route. I'm assuming this is based on demand rather than capacity?

Sandyb123

Of course. You see secondary airports like often served by a mix of E-jets and 737. Off peak hours see the E90, peak hours the 737.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
A388
Posts: 7884
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:58 pm

What are the projections of other European airports that might or will reach that maximum capacity like AMS is doing now? What do FRA, CDG expect? Do they have a limit in number of flights or movements that they can allow? What AMS has to comply with is that an EU wide regulation meaning all airports in the EU have a maximum allowed number of flights/movements? I can imagine an airport like CDG has less of a problem because ORY and London has LGW besides LHR? Or shouldn't I see it this way?

A388
 
User avatar
Taxi645
Topic Author
Posts: 317
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:29 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:25 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Is this thread trying to be a not so subtle A380 sales pitch?


Like frigatebirds say's, you don't have to add capacity at the top like with the A380. The bulk will come from upsizing more common models. That said, every bit helps.
Innovation is seeing opportunity before obstacle.
 
User avatar
FLJ
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:04 am

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:26 pm

Blerg wrote:
Are there any other European airlines besides SU and TK that send widebodies to AMS?


Yes, Air Europa comes with the A330 or 787 on a frequent basis, and also Icelandair has a daily 763 flight.
 
[email protected]
Posts: 16616
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:35 pm

Does this mean Level's coming 4 aircraft base at AMS will simply be replacing VY?
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
User avatar
N14AZ
Posts: 3793
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:35 pm

Taxi645 wrote:
Incidently at the end of this month it will open a 3rd A380 gate.

Again in Dutch:

https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... irbus-a380


Google-Translation:
Schiphol Airport creates more space for the Airbus A380. At the moment two of those super jumbo's can be handled at the same time, but at the end of January there will be a third gate where the large aircraft can moor.

The A380 will soon have a spot at gate E24, at the head of the E-pier. After a one-year refurbishment, the waiting area for passengers was enlarged, the platform and the taxiway at the gate were modified and an extra avio bridge was added to facilitate boarding and disembarking.

At the moment Emirates flies twice a day with the Airbus A380 to Schiphol. China Southern Airlines completed a third A380 flight last summer.

Gates G9 and E18 were already suitable for the A380, which can carry more than five hundred passengers.

So it seems they just want to be prepared for the case that three A380s will be at AMS at the same time.
 
User avatar
frigatebird
Posts: 1671
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:02 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:53 pm

[email protected] wrote:
Does this mean Level's coming 4 aircraft base at AMS will simply be replacing VY?

Yes.
N14AZ wrote:
Google-Translation:
Schiphol Airport creates more space for the Airbus A380. At the moment two of those super jumbo's can be handled at the same time, but at the end of January there will be a third gate where the large aircraft can moor.

The A380 will soon have a spot at gate E24, at the head of the E-pier. After a one-year refurbishment, the waiting area for passengers was enlarged, the platform and the taxiway at the gate were modified and an extra avio bridge was added to facilitate boarding and disembarking.

At the moment Emirates flies twice a day with the Airbus A380 to Schiphol. China Southern Airlines completed a third A380 flight last summer.

Gates G9 and E18 were already suitable for the A380, which can carry more than five hundred passengers.

So it seems they just want to be prepared for the case that three A380s will be at AMS at the same time.

EK has 2 daily A380 flights, afternoon and evening, but they won't be at the gate the same unless one of them goes tech. EK's 3rd flight is with a 77W. But that's a morning flight.
CZ sent the A380 to AMS in previous summers, but with their withdrawal from Skyteam I cannot see this happening again. Should remain A330 for the foreseeable future.
No idea which other airline would serve AMS with an A380. SQ seems perfectly happy with sending the A359, QR and EY are sending a mix of 787 and 77W aircraft now, cannot see them sending an A380 as AMS not a premium market.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
User avatar
TurboJet707
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 11:30 am

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:58 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Airport expansion is always an option, either at hubs like AMS/BRU/DUS or perhaps give opportunity to smaller ones like EIN.


Well, probably not in this case. Netherlands is a very densely populated country (17,3 million inhabitants) and there's currently a big discussion going on about CO2 reduction and noise abatement. Many people already feel that the burden of CO2 reduction is laid entirely/too much on the shoulders of citizens, who will be forced to invest heavily in electric cars and 'green' ways of heating their homes, while the large companies and industries are being spared. AMS Schiphol airport also has a reputation for juggling very creatively with noise level calculations. I don't say that those complaining people are right, but this is the zeitgeist. Allowing AMS or any other Dutch airport to expand would send out a completely wrong signal, it would stir up a lot of bad blood and there is currently absolutley no political support for it.

Yes, airlines could move to DUS or BRU, but I don't see any expansion in the Netherlands anytime soon.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9688
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:59 pm

sandyb123 wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Airport expansion is always an option, either at hubs like AMS/BRU/DUS or perhaps give opportunity to smaller ones like EIN.


Is this a case that the airport is at capacity or that this is a legislative question based on noise or some such other measure?

Legislative and it is in place until Nov 1st, 2020 which probably means it will be adjusted. Google "Alders agreement AMS".
 
OlafW
Posts: 302
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:15 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:29 pm

frigatebird wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Is this thread trying to be a not so subtle A380 sales pitch?

Airport expansion is always an option, either at hubs like AMS/BRU/DUS or perhaps give opportunity to smaller ones like EIN.

Larger aircraft doesn't automatically mean the A380.
This is how KL can grow without additional slots:
E75/90 to E2-195 or A220;
737-700/800 to 737-9/10 or A321;
A330-200/300, 747combi to 787-9/10 or A350;
77E/77W to 777X.


Wasn't there talk recently that the narrowbody fleet will stay Boeing and also all 350s of the AFKL group will stay with AF? In that case it seems that the growth of KL is also determined somehow. It will be interesting to see for the smallest ones, but keeping in mind that the 175s are less than 3 years old and the oldest 190s around 10 years, I don't see any immediate action needed there.
 
kimimm19
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:34 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:39 pm

frigatebird wrote:
Additional 77W could be on their way to KL as well.


With the recent uncertainty for the A350s at KLM, it seems like they could be another candidate for cheap 77Ws like Swiss and United.
 
User avatar
frigatebird
Posts: 1671
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:02 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:41 pm

OlafW wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Is this thread trying to be a not so subtle A380 sales pitch?

Airport expansion is always an option, either at hubs like AMS/BRU/DUS or perhaps give opportunity to smaller ones like EIN.

Larger aircraft doesn't automatically mean the A380.
This is how KL can grow without additional slots:
E75/90 to E2-195 or A220;
737-700/800 to 737-9/10 or A321;
A330-200/300, 747combi to 787-9/10 or A350;
77E/77W to 777X.


Wasn't there talk recently that the narrowbody fleet will stay Boeing and also all 350s of the AFKL group will stay with AF? In that case it seems that the growth of KL is also determined somehow. It will be interesting to see for the smallest ones, but keeping in mind that the 175s are less than 3 years old and the oldest 190s around 10 years, I don't see any immediate action needed there.

I mentioned the Airbus types as examples - I don't want to be accused of being anti-Airbus when leaving these out! :flamed: :white:
The E75 won't go anywhere soon, agree with that. The E90s I'm not totally sure about: all but 2 are leased and many leases will expire the next few years. KL's 737-700s are not old either, yet this year 4 will leave because it's not economical to operate anymore. Same might happen to the E90s.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
musman9853
Posts: 825
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 12:30 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:42 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Is this thread trying to be a not so subtle A380 sales pitch?

Airport expansion is always an option, either at hubs like AMS/BRU/DUS or perhaps give opportunity to smaller ones like EIN.



Much easier to turn rjs into nb, nb into 797, a330/787 to 777/a350 than to waste money on the a380
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 631
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:48 pm

Yayy! That means KL will order A380s or the 747-8?
 
User avatar
N14AZ
Posts: 3793
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:54 pm

musman9853 wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Is this thread trying to be a not so subtle A380 sales pitch?

Airport expansion is always an option, either at hubs like AMS/BRU/DUS or perhaps give opportunity to smaller ones like EIN.



Much easier to turn rjs into nb, nb into 797, a330/787 to 777/a350 than to waste money on the a380

Fine. So do you have an explanation why AMS did exactly this? Wasting money in a third A380-capable gate when they usually have never more than one A380 in AMS at the same time, as described by Frigatebird?

This is not meant to be snippy. I also see no logical explanation for the third A380-gate.
 
User avatar
FlyRow
Posts: 716
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:05 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:56 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Yayy! That means KL will order A380s or the 747-8?


no, no again. And just to make sure: no.

It has been discussed to death here, AF is ditching part of it's A380 fleet and KLM has said multiple times it's not interested even in secondhand A380's.
Just not going to happen.
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
User avatar
FlyRow
Posts: 716
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:05 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:59 pm

N14AZ wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Is this thread trying to be a not so subtle A380 sales pitch?

Airport expansion is always an option, either at hubs like AMS/BRU/DUS or perhaps give opportunity to smaller ones like EIN.



Much easier to turn rjs into nb, nb into 797, a330/787 to 777/a350 than to waste money on the a380

Fine. So do you have an explanation why AMS did exactly this? Wasting money in a third A380-capable gate when they usually have never more than one A380 in AMS at the same time, as described by Frigatebird?

This is not meant to be snippy. I also see no logical explanation for the third A380-gate.


They had a incident I believe when one A380 was severly delayed and a third was inbound. Which had no propper space to park. With a future third EK A380 flight (wouldn't be surprised if that happened one day) you are a bit tight with just two capable gates.

The E-gates interiors are being refurbished anyway, so I think it might be a easy upgrade and we shouldn't look to much in to this.

I also believe this is the first triple-bridge at Schiphol (as the article mentions a extra bridge, and it has a double-overwing bridge at the moment. That also might be a reason, that Emirates wanted a triple bridge for it's custommers?
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 598
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:14 pm

TurboJet707 wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Airport expansion is always an option, either at hubs like AMS/BRU/DUS or perhaps give opportunity to smaller ones like EIN.


Well, probably not in this case. Netherlands is a very densely populated country (17,3 million inhabitants) and there's currently a big discussion going on about CO2 reduction and noise abatement. Many people already feel that the burden of CO2 reduction is laid entirely/too much on the shoulders of citizens, who will be forced to invest heavily in electric cars and 'green' ways of heating their homes, while the large companies and industries are being spared. AMS Schiphol airport also has a reputation for juggling very creatively with noise level calculations. I don't say that those complaining people are right, but this is the zeitgeist. Allowing AMS or any other Dutch airport to expand would send out a completely wrong signal, it would stir up a lot of bad blood and there is currently absolutley no political support for it.

Yes, airlines could move to DUS or BRU, but I don't see any expansion in the Netherlands anytime soon.


What about Lelystad? Is it currently open to airline traffic, and if not, when will it open? It seems as if destinations to the east, southeast, and northeast of Amsterdam (Utrecht/Arnhem/Nijmegen/Den Bosch, Apeldoorn, Leeuwarden, even Groningen etc.) would be well-served by such a reliever airport. Would movements at LEY be subtracted from the 500K allowed at AMS?
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 3808
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:42 pm

FlyRow wrote:
They had a incident I believe when one A380 was severly delayed and a third was inbound. Which had no propper space to park. With a future third EK A380 flight (wouldn't be surprised if that happened one day) you are a bit tight with just two capable gates.

The E-gates interiors are being refurbished anyway, so I think it might be a easy upgrade and we shouldn't look to much in to this.

I also believe this is the first triple-bridge at Schiphol (as the article mentions a extra bridge, and it has a double-overwing bridge at the moment. That also might be a reason, that Emirates wanted a triple bridge for it's custommers?


Well, it's interesting that the third A380 gate is at the "KLM side" of the terminal complex. While I do realize that most/all gates are fairly flexible in terms of airline use, AMS airport and KLM try to focus KLM and partner long haul flights at D, E and F gates. I would be surprised to see EK A380 (let alone two!) right in the middle of KLM operations in E pier.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9974
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:57 pm

LEY will open in 2020, or so it is planned. It supposed to be mostly holiday flights. And indeed, the flights should be excisting flights in order to free up slots on AMS for network (read KLM) carriers. The EU said no when Ryan air complained on the basis that LEY should be available for everyone, not just carriers already operating on AMS, competition. So nobody knows as of yet what kind of flights will be housed on LEY.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
FlyRow
Posts: 716
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:05 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:14 pm

PW100 wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
They had a incident I believe when one A380 was severly delayed and a third was inbound. Which had no propper space to park. With a future third EK A380 flight (wouldn't be surprised if that happened one day) you are a bit tight with just two capable gates.

The E-gates interiors are being refurbished anyway, so I think it might be a easy upgrade and we shouldn't look to much in to this.

I also believe this is the first triple-bridge at Schiphol (as the article mentions a extra bridge, and it has a double-overwing bridge at the moment. That also might be a reason, that Emirates wanted a triple bridge for it's custommers?


Well, it's interesting that the third A380 gate is at the "KLM side" of the terminal complex. While I do realize that most/all gates are fairly flexible in terms of airline use, AMS airport and KLM try to focus KLM and partner long haul flights at D, E and F gates. I would be surprised to see EK A380 (let alone two!) right in the middle of KLM operations in E pier.


If you look at gate E18 on google maps you can spot the EK A380 already.
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
User avatar
Slug71
Posts: 1385
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:08 am

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:08 pm

frigatebird wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Does this mean Level's coming 4 aircraft base at AMS will simply be replacing VY?

Yes.
N14AZ wrote:
Google-Translation:
Schiphol Airport creates more space for the Airbus A380. At the moment two of those super jumbo's can be handled at the same time, but at the end of January there will be a third gate where the large aircraft can moor.

The A380 will soon have a spot at gate E24, at the head of the E-pier. After a one-year refurbishment, the waiting area for passengers was enlarged, the platform and the taxiway at the gate were modified and an extra avio bridge was added to facilitate boarding and disembarking.

At the moment Emirates flies twice a day with the Airbus A380 to Schiphol. China Southern Airlines completed a third A380 flight last summer.

Gates G9 and E18 were already suitable for the A380, which can carry more than five hundred passengers.

So it seems they just want to be prepared for the case that three A380s will be at AMS at the same time.

EK has 2 daily A380 flights, afternoon and evening, but they won't be at the gate the same unless one of them goes tech. EK's 3rd flight is with a 77W. But that's a morning flight.
CZ sent the A380 to AMS in previous summers, but with their withdrawal from Skyteam I cannot see this happening again. Should remain A330 for the foreseeable future.
No idea which other airline would serve AMS with an A380. SQ seems perfectly happy with sending the A359, QR and EY are sending a mix of 787 and 77W aircraft now, cannot see them sending an A380 as AMS not a premium market.


PW100 wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
They had a incident I believe when one A380 was severly delayed and a third was inbound. Which had no propper space to park. With a future third EK A380 flight (wouldn't be surprised if that happened one day) you are a bit tight with just two capable gates.

The E-gates interiors are being refurbished anyway, so I think it might be a easy upgrade and we shouldn't look to much in to this.

I also believe this is the first triple-bridge at Schiphol (as the article mentions a extra bridge, and it has a double-overwing bridge at the moment. That also might be a reason, that Emirates wanted a triple bridge for it's custommers?


Well, it's interesting that the third A380 gate is at the "KLM side" of the terminal complex. While I do realize that most/all gates are fairly flexible in terms of airline use, AMS airport and KLM try to focus KLM and partner long haul flights at D, E and F gates. I would be surprised to see EK A380 (let alone two!) right in the middle of KLM operations in E pier.


AF?
 
User avatar
FlyRow
Posts: 716
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:05 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:20 pm

Slug71 wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Does this mean Level's coming 4 aircraft base at AMS will simply be replacing VY?

Yes.
N14AZ wrote:
Google-Translation:

So it seems they just want to be prepared for the case that three A380s will be at AMS at the same time.

EK has 2 daily A380 flights, afternoon and evening, but they won't be at the gate the same unless one of them goes tech. EK's 3rd flight is with a 77W. But that's a morning flight.
CZ sent the A380 to AMS in previous summers, but with their withdrawal from Skyteam I cannot see this happening again. Should remain A330 for the foreseeable future.
No idea which other airline would serve AMS with an A380. SQ seems perfectly happy with sending the A359, QR and EY are sending a mix of 787 and 77W aircraft now, cannot see them sending an A380 as AMS not a premium market.


PW100 wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
They had a incident I believe when one A380 was severly delayed and a third was inbound. Which had no propper space to park. With a future third EK A380 flight (wouldn't be surprised if that happened one day) you are a bit tight with just two capable gates.

The E-gates interiors are being refurbished anyway, so I think it might be a easy upgrade and we shouldn't look to much in to this.

I also believe this is the first triple-bridge at Schiphol (as the article mentions a extra bridge, and it has a double-overwing bridge at the moment. That also might be a reason, that Emirates wanted a triple bridge for it's custommers?


Well, it's interesting that the third A380 gate is at the "KLM side" of the terminal complex. While I do realize that most/all gates are fairly flexible in terms of airline use, AMS airport and KLM try to focus KLM and partner long haul flights at D, E and F gates. I would be surprised to see EK A380 (let alone two!) right in the middle of KLM operations in E pier.


AF?


AF is getting rid of half there A380's I believe. AF's A380's are premium heavy and AMS isn't a premium destination (not as bad as it used to be, but it's mainly a Y destination) .

As I said, KLM has stated they don't need/want A380's, AF is losing them.

This gate is purely for operational reasons/flexibility when a 3rd daily A380 service commences bij EK.
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
musman9853
Posts: 825
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 12:30 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:34 pm

N14AZ wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Is this thread trying to be a not so subtle A380 sales pitch?

Airport expansion is always an option, either at hubs like AMS/BRU/DUS or perhaps give opportunity to smaller ones like EIN.



Much easier to turn rjs into nb, nb into 797, a330/787 to 777/a350 than to waste money on the a380

Fine. So do you have an explanation why AMS did exactly this? Wasting money in a third A380-capable gate when they usually have never more than one A380 in AMS at the same time, as described by Frigatebird?

This is not meant to be snippy. I also see no logical explanation for the third A380-gate.



maybe ek wanted to up gauge their 777 to another a380? i cant see a point to this either, as literally no one wants new a380s except emirates, certainly not the european airlines that fly the most to ams
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
caverunner17
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:50 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:12 pm

Just the comment I made in the 777-9 thread. I'd assume we'll start seeing this more often and need more capacity.
 
master14225
Posts: 180
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 6:38 am

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:19 pm

By any chance will there be a new airport someday that will replace current AMS?
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18101
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:23 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Is this thread trying to be a not so subtle A380 sales pitch?

Airport expansion is always an option, either at hubs like AMS/BRU/DUS or perhaps give opportunity to smaller ones like EIN.

Expand or be bypassed. That can be other hubs taking the role (DUB, WAW, IST, or a US3 or ME3 hub) or business naturally drifting elsewhere. It is best to concentrate flights, but a split hub is better than nothing.

Has TK sent the appropriate people gift baskets for holding up AMS expansion?

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
FlyRow
Posts: 716
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:05 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:26 pm

master14225 wrote:
By any chance will there be a new airport someday that will replace current AMS?


There has been talks for a North Sea airport for decades. Before that there was a plan for a new airport in the Noordoostpolder and a combined RTM/AMS, none of which came even close to realisation.

Problems with the (by media) overquoted solution of a North Sea Airport:
Wind
Insane price tag.
Enviromental impact
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
CFRPwingALbody
Posts: 277
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:13 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:17 pm

Here are some points I've to add to this discussion.
1) AMS is capacity restricted because of political reasons. The 500k commercial flights annually (and spread out over the day, and less flights during the night) is purely based on limiting noise levels for nearby villages.
2) Noise is also holding back Lelylstad Airpost. The terminal construction is planned to be finished in 2020. But Air Traffic Management can't rearrange the airspace in this timescale. Thus untill the airspace (routing to AMS) is rearranged planes flying to Lelystad have to fly below the routes to AMS. They did some test flights last year, with bad results (AKA a lot of complains).
3) But if AMS can attract more newer generation planes, with less noisy engines, they could grow to 520 000 flights annually. AFAIK this is already being discussed behind the scenes. This is also because LEY can't receive many airplanes until the airspace is rearranged.

4) AFAIK the 3th A380 gate us just the result of going to centralized security. Schiphol has been/is removing security facilities inside the D/E/F&G piers, this creates more room for facilities and larger waiting area's. Thus facilitating larger passenger flows, this way they create space to facilitate two A380 gates at the E-pier.
5) Besides they are also constructing the new A-terminal and A-pier. That's where non-skyteam airlines will be located.

Possibly also note worthy is the fact that in Groningen Airport Eelde (GRQ) they are searching for more flights. Thus possibly that's a airport in NL to move seasonal flights towards. (But it's not owned by the Schiphol group)

Than to the speculation of Schiphol Group CEO Benschop about the expansion of the North-South Metro line to Schiphol. This will be a really expansive project. And getting a rail project done in the Netherlands is even more troublesome than the realization of LEY.
Besides, AFAIK for international trains the plan is to cluster the stops from station Amsterdam Central & Amsterdam Schiphol at Amsterdam South. The North-South metro line ends at that station now.
High speed rail, at least to the UK (Eurostar) requires a security check proces. This doesn't work at the small Schiphol train station. And the railway to Amsterdam Central is really over used. Besides high speed rail requires less tops to decrease travel time.
I think the Schiphol group will benefit much more from a trainstation at Lelystad Airport, enabling beter passenger flows from there.
But there is a huge backlog of rail projects in the Netherlands [rollout of ERTMS, high frequency rail, re-electrification 1500V DV => 25kV AC, elimination of railroad crossing, High speed rail to north (Groningen/ Leewarden) and West (Germany).]

That's enough about AMS and the Netherlands. Now about other capacity limited European (continent) airports. The best known is LHR (Heathrow).
But how is the situation around Berlin? (The Germans are much better at rail projects) And what about Spain. And Italy (though Alitalia)?
 
User avatar
FlyRow
Posts: 716
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:05 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 pm

That's enough about AMS and the Netherlands.


wait, we can't discusse AMS/Dutch aviation in a Dutch aviation thread...?
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
CFRPwingALbody
Posts: 277
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:13 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:49 pm

FlyRow wrote:
That's enough about AMS and the Netherlands.


wait, we can't discusse AMS/Dutch aviation in a Dutch aviation thread...?


I was referring to my own post. :white:
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4383
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:53 pm

AMS does not feel over congested like CDG, LHR. I feel like alot of work can be done to increase capacity pretty easily if/when its really needed. Excellent airport to transfer thru
IMHO was easier than LHR, LGW, or CDG.
 
User avatar
FlyRow
Posts: 716
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:05 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:24 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
AMS does not feel over congested like CDG, LHR. I feel like alot of work can be done to increase capacity pretty easily if/when its really needed. Excellent airport to transfer thru
IMHO was easier than LHR, LGW, or CDG.


That's because it's not a fysical limit. It's a political one.
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
User avatar
Taxi645
Topic Author
Posts: 317
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:29 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:21 am

AMS will also adopt policy to give slots preferably to airlines using quiet and fuel efficient aircraft in order to release pressure on this politically set limit of 500.000.

That might mean that longer term short term sollutions like adding for instance 777W might not be the best option.
Innovation is seeing opportunity before obstacle.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12486
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:00 am

FlyRow wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Yayy! That means KL will order A380s or the 747-8?

KLM has said multiple times it's not interested even in secondhand A380's.

...and NO airline is interested in the 748i, even according to Boeing. So there's that. :razz:
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2084
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:33 am

deleted
 
User avatar
frigatebird
Posts: 1671
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:02 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:35 am

Taxi645 wrote:
AMS will also adopt policy to give slots preferably to airlines using quiet and fuel efficient aircraft in order to release pressure on this politically set limit of 500.000.

That might mean that longer term short term sollutions like adding for instance 777W might not be the best option.

True, but there's not much else available unless you accept lower capacity alternatives like 787-10 or A350-1000. And 777-9 production slots won't be available for another 4 years.

If you look solely at noise categories effective 2020 at AMS, getting rid of the A330s is one of the best things for KL as these are in category S2 (one but worst, 744 is also in that category but that type is out by 2021 anyway). But the best thing is replacing their 738 fleet with A320neo, these are in category S7 (quietest, one better than 737MAX8). Fleet decisions aren't as simple as that of course, and KL will soldier on with the 738 for the foreseeable future.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
User avatar
Taxi645
Topic Author
Posts: 317
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:29 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:20 am

frigatebird wrote:
Taxi645 wrote:
AMS will also adopt policy to give slots preferably to airlines using quiet and fuel efficient aircraft in order to release pressure on this politically set limit of 500.000.

That might mean that longer term short term sollutions like adding for instance 777W might not be the best option.

True, but there's not much else available unless you accept lower capacity alternatives like 787-10 or A350-1000. And 777-9 production slots won't be available for another 4 years.

If you look solely at noise categories effective 2020 at AMS, getting rid of the A330s is one of the best things for KL as these are in category S2 (one but worst, 744 is also in that category but that type is out by 2021 anyway). But the best thing is replacing their 738 fleet with A320neo, these are in category S7 (quietest, one better than 737MAX8). Fleet decisions aren't as simple as that of course, and KL will soldier on with the 738 for the foreseeable future.


Good points. I reckon replacing their a330's and 777's mainly with 787-10 and A350-1000 wouldn't compromise their capacity really. Possibly delivery slots could be arranged, but I'm certainly no KLM fleet /planner expert.

Curious about the A220 at KLM as well. A220-300 might work, possibly even a hypothetical 500...
Innovation is seeing opportunity before obstacle.
 
cokepopper
Posts: 495
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 9:44 pm

Re: AMS reach max. flights, 3rd A380 gate opens end of january

Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:58 am

Could this be one of the reasons why Delta feels comfortable in replacing their 763’s to A339? How soon can we see all airbus on Delta’s flights in/out of AMS?

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos